Is White getting better?

[Sinis]

Sparked by @Hawk in the RCOTD thread here, I saw something on twitter about White's woes. A Magic data science twitter account posted this the other day:

Apparently recently printed White cards are popular, according to EDHREC data. Looking at the data science graph of White cards, there appears to be a big spike in popular white cards starting around 2019, but if you look at monowhite cards ordered by popularity printed since 2018, the list gets pretty unremarkable after the first 20 or so. Taking the poorest faring colour in the same graph, green seems to have had just as a remarkable time in the same period.

Further, even as of this week, public champions of 'White needs better' are still crowing White's problems, which I can't help but agree with.

I won't deny that White has gotten some good cards in the last few years. But, I think, every colour got good cards in the last few years, and it may be my bias, but I feel like White's new additions were less good. Essentially, we're seeing that new White cards are seeing more play than new cards of other colours, but it may only be because average older White card is so incredibly worse than what's coming out.

So, what do y'all think?

[pokken]

White is still basically worse at magic than the other color for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that they never get the broken stuff first. Every white "take" on another hot busted card is after the broken version has already been printed in blue or green (or sometimes red). When they add it to white they remember to make it 1 mana more expensive, have an extra activation cost or restriction or only fetch basic plains or only do catchup ramp.

See Rhystic Study → Smothering Tithe, Esper Sentinel, as the most obvious examples I can think of. But it happens all the time.

And when they do remember to print a white card that's awesome (Smothering Tithe, Cosmic Intervention, Akroma's Will) they forget to make it cost WW, so it just gets splashed.

And all the while other colors somehow get *better* versions of the cards that were uniquely white - Aven Mindcensor → Opposition Agent for example.

---

I will say that they have done a pretty good job on catching up the bomb front of Akroma's Will and Serra's Emissary type stuff, and starting to make some staple-level cards like Esper Sentinel. I just wish they would not make everything either splashable or of largely meaningless mana cost because it's best cheated out or a curve topper (see emissary).

But every set the power creep in the other colors just becomes one step forward two steps back (I still cannot imagine what they were thinking with Vilis, Broker of Blood and Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Toxrill, the Corrosive and Nyxbloom Ancient and on and on and on. Old Gnawbone and Goldspan Dragon and Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. I can literally just keep going all day ).

[Sinis]

White is still basically worse at magic than the other color for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that they never get the broken stuff first.

Arguably, I don't think White gets broken stuff at all, with a couple of exceptions. The way I've formulated it for myself is that the ceiling on nearly every White card is low. Smothering Tithe is a huge exception, but after that? Nearly every White has something throttling its output (exactly like Esper Sentinel).

Basically, I don't believe we will ever see something with as high a ceiling as Cultivator Colossus in white, where you get to do one of White's things between 2 and 10+ times just because you payed 7 mana (let's pretend people don't Natural Order this when they have a glut).

I do agree that the power creep of other colours outpaced White's. Not just things like Razaketh, but, like, remember in Eldraine when green got The Great Henge, and white got... ???

[pokken]

White is still basically worse at magic than the other color for a variety of reasons, but the main one is that they never get the broken stuff first.

Arguably, I don't think White gets broken stuff at all, with a couple of exceptions. The way I've formulated it for myself is that the ceiling on nearly every White card is low. Smothering Tithe is a huge exception, but after that? Nearly every White has something throttling its output (exactly like Esper Sentinel).

Basically, I don't believe we will ever see something with as high a ceiling as Cultivator Colossus in white, where you get to do one of White's things between 2 and 10+ times just because you payed 7 mana (let's pretend people don't Natural Order this when they have a glut).

I think maybe my phrasing made it sound like I think white gets broken stuff but it's more like they see something broken, and make a "fixed" white version that is supposed to be good but then usually isn't. stuff like The Restoration of Eiganjo // Architect of Restoration that is only ever appealing to weirdos like me. Hey guys it's roundabout white cultivate! Look how good it is! Meanwhile green has been sitting on Nature's Lore and keeps getting new better stuff (Tireless Provisioner!!?)

But yes I agree. There are generally speaking zero broken white cards that aren't banned in all of CEDH - Balance probably being the only one I can think of. Maybe Serra Ascendant? And Armageddon / Ravages of War are "broken" but might as well be banned I guess.


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I remembered another example, Cyclonic Rift → Winds of Abandon. This largely nerfed version of Cyclonic Rift is still powerful enough to see play despite being sorcery, ramping your opponent, not hitting non-creatures, etc. (in exchange for exiling which is nice, but the narrow target and sorcery speed is pretty major).

The list really is nearly a mile long.

[Sinis]

I think maybe my phrasing made it sound like I think white gets broken stuff but it's more like they see something broken, and make a "fixed" white version that is supposed to be good but then usually isn't.

No no, your meaning was clear. I mean, we all noticed Smothering Tithe is pretty much worse than Hullbreacher, which was very relevant before the latter was banned.

[Hawk]

Thanks for this thread!

Obviously white has received some incredible cards in the last few years. Esper Sentinel, Welcoming Vampire, and Losheel, Clockwork Scholar add a bit more draw; Smothering Tithe, Archaeomancer's Map, and Keeper of the Accord let white keep up on mana. They've also gotten a little better at giving white truly back-breaking versions of effects they ought to be best at - stuff like Teferi's Protection, Flawless Maneuver, Akroma's Will, Vanquish the Horde.

I think WotC's problem is not necessarily some ingrained bias towards White, but a problem of "devotion to the flavor of white" and a problem of the way the "Council of Colors" reviews cards.

On the first note - white's flavor is that white is Reactive. White is Defensive. White "plays by the rules". White is looking to "equalize", not "cheat". That means most of white's best cards come with a bunch of rules and restrictions and terms and conditions. Or, white stuff only works if you are behind. Green gets to just Cultivate; white waits and only gets more lands if they are way behind...which means you are playing behind, spending mana just to hold steady with the aggressors and holding onto dead cards if they got a slower start than you. It's a flavor home-run that leads to miserable gameplay, especially in a multiplayer eternal format.

On the second point, I've thought a lot about it. To oversimplify the "rules" of the colors that the Council of Colors reviews:

WHITE: White is the best at small creatures, going wide, and playing "fair". White can do things - as long as those things involve a fair trade, reaction, or symmetry. White is the worst at card draw and only in the last few years is ever allowed to draw cards ever - and even now, white draw must be limited to "once per turn" or be symmetrical.

BLUE: Blue is the lone color of counterspells, the master of card draw, and the overall ruler of messing with opponents and controlling the flow of the game. Blue is reactive, and should struggle to remove cards on the board permanently (but it is the king of stealing effects). Blue gets the fewest and weakest creatures, and when they get good ones they should require a dedication to blue or to "blue things" (think Prowess of Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration)

BLACK: Black is the color of power and ambition and the master of removal and graveyard manipulation. Black is allowed to do almost anything - but often at a price such as paying life, sacrificing cards, or having powerful but fragile cards. Black isn't allowed to destroy artifacts.

RED: Red is the color of speed and chaos. Red is nowadays allowed to almost anything as long as it is impulsive or chaotic or temporary enough. Red is never ever allowed to destroy enchantments.

GREEN: Green is the color of creatures. Green is allowed to do almost anything nowadays as long as it involves creatures. Green should never ever be allowed to destroy a creature without using its own creatures.

This is my own words but isn't far off from the way the color pie is described, and the way Mark portrays the Council of Colors in terms of them looking out for bends and breaks. And right away, it gives three huge problems to white:

1) First, straight up and acknowledged by WotC in the last few years - the stuff white is "the best at" is stuff that isn't good in Commander. Lifegain and "white weenie strats" are not good in Commander. Symmetrical stuff or Reparations-style removal can be good in Commander, but has to be costed extremely aggressively which WotC just doesn't want to do for Standard - we have Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile and Wrath of God but for ever Vanquish the Horde and Fateful Absence they print we get 15 Angelic Edicts "for the good of standard".

2) Other colors are "allowed to anything as long as it is done in a way that is in flavor for the color" with usually just one glaring exception. White is allowed to a lot but "not too strong, too fast, or too one-sidedly". White is the only one of these in which even things white should be good at are looked at not just from a "design" perspective but from a "development/balance" perspective. Put another way - the Council wouldn't even review a new Ancestral Recall; they'd let play design decide it it was healthy for a card like that to exist. For white though, a new Swords to Plowshares or a card like Welcoming Vampire gets a ton of scrutiny - is the rate too good? Is it too mana efficient? Are there enough restrictions on it?

3) And to the point of blue being too good - blue is the only color in which the thing it is "not allowed to do" isn't a hard no, but a developmental cap. Blue is allowed to have creatures - just not too many, and they require blue things. That keeps Standard and Limited balanced but over time means Blue in Eternal is just as good or better than every other color at creature stuff. It also means that it's easier for something to "sneak by" the Council. If someone proposes a red Disenchant (even with flavor justification) or a white Harmonize (even with flavor justifications), the Council can very easily say and see "no, that's a break". But is Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration a break? Well...only if there's lots of similar creatures in the meta, a single Delver is fine. Which is great for keeping an eye on standard and limited but totally awful for EDH.

[ISBPathfinder]

My own personal take of why mono white doesn't get good things is that its tools are very powerful when paired with another non red color (in this format). My own take of what white needs more cards like Invoke Justice. It might be an odd thing to reference but a lot of mono white's issue is that a lot of their good tools shift to multicolored concepts that when paired with colors other than red tend to make white's tools very strong. What they really need is something super powerful but also limited to mono white and the way to do that is to make it incredibly color intense. I want to see some powerful mono white effect that costs WWWWW to cast.

White could also use additional powerful and unique commanders. Mono colored legends that are powerful are one of the best ways to force players to play mono colored because lots of the multicolored cards don't have the same weaknesses.

If you look at the list of cards in the OP most of them are really good cards in splash colors. What white really needs is more cards like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and super mana symbol intensive powerful mono colored cards.

[RxPhantom]

I know white is still the worst, but I have a tendency to favor it. White can answer practically anything and rely on other colors or artifacts for the rest.

[pokken]

I know white is still the worst, but I have a tendency to favor it. White can answer practically anything and rely on other colors or artifacts for the rest.

Like half my decks are heavily white but man if the actual wincons and things aren't almost always other colors or combos =P

The only thing super desirable is the removal suite, and sometimes the fetchland ramp suite I guess? Looking at my ephara deck it's basically "sweepers, derpy crap that happens to synergize with Ephara, and then blue cards."

You're pretty right though it's mostly the removal suite.

[Sinis]

My own personal take of why mono white doesn't get good things is that its tools are very powerful when paired with another non red color (in this format). My own take of what white needs more cards like Invoke Justice.

You know, I didn't notice that Invoke Justice was target 'permanent'. I thought for some reason, it was 'creature', possibly because of the creature/vehicle text after.

Of course, my brain immediately just went "Oh, that's Obzedat's Aid, so you can rez a real colour's card like Omniscience". Invoke Justice is probably a good card, but I wouldn't say it's breaking new ground.

White could also use additional powerful and unique commanders. Mono colored legends that are powerful are one of the best ways to force players to play mono colored because lots of the multicolored cards don't have the same weaknesses.

100% agree. Mono-white's potential commanders tend to be pretty terrible. Even 'incentives' like Emeria are actually easier to leverage in certain other decks; like, if I really wanted Emeria to happen, I would just play Karametra, God of Harvests for green's land tutors, and Karametra's plains (and forest!) deployment. Emeria isn't even really that strong an effect.

[onering]

I'd also like to see some weenie helper cards that play into whites strengths. Fair MLD, like something that makes players sacrifice lands down to 4, or something that makes players sacrifice up to 2 lands but can't make their land count go below a certain number. %$#% that wouldn't be back breaking but would speedbump other decks while not doing much to the weenie deck. Then more things to protect weenies or recur them. They're getting to a critical mass of weenie reanimation, I just don't think a deck is quite there yet.

[Sinis]

a card like Welcoming Vampire gets a ton of scrutiny - is the rate too good? Is it too mana efficient? Are there enough restrictions on it?

I glossed over this one when I was reading your post. I remember lots of people being excited about Welcoming Vampire, which seems totally reasonable because Mentor of the Meek was pretty good, but it's like everyone forgot that Beast Whisperer exists? Like, why is the white card so much worse?!

I know you can't make arguments about 'strictly' here, because BW costs 4, and is only on casts, but the throttle on WV's rate is brutal.

[capitacommunist]

Fully agree with all the comments that have been posted in this thread already. Building upon that, white suffers very much in the 4-6 cmc cards that you can ramp out easily with artifact ramp. Because of white's focus on small creatures and impact in standard, cards in the <=3 cmc will often be underpowered a bit for EDH (e.g. Welcoming Vampire), even if they're still good die to lack of alternatives. But white's cards in the 4-6 cmc where the impact on standard is less, are also often held back in power level. And for some of its most powerful cards in a vacuum such as Academy Rector, it doesn't have the best options in color (and it easily splashable anyway).
Overall I think white has gotten better cards over the past year, but because other colors are still getting relatively stronger cards, white is actually falling further behind.
Until white gets more ways to break parity (as it can through wraths, certain protection spells, and the return permanent spells that allow you to ramp with fetch lands (I.e Cosmic Intervention), this will not change even if white gets better cards than before.

NB: more of white's best cards should have WW mana costs, now almost all cards that are strong enough in multicolor decks are easily splashed too.

[Serenade]

Invoke Justice
1WWWW
Sorcery

Make justice faster.

[PrimevalCommander]

Is white getting better, Yes.
Is white catching up to other colors in terms of power and flexibility, not so much. White is getting better, but every other color is getting pushed far beyond the power level of even the new auto-include level white cards.
All colors are getting more powerful. A natural progression as more cards are printed. White is still moving slowest compared to other colors. In my opinion. This is why it is most used as a splash color. Much easier to sprinkle in the new hotness in white while filling out the majority of the decks with more generically powerful cards in other colors.

[5colorsrainbow]

I will also echo white biggest issue in commander it a lot of what white is good at doesn't translate into commander the best as well as white works a lot better as support color to another color/combo (with red being the worst in terms of commander).


Personally I think right now white is in a experiential in-between phase. They only really started to try to help white in commander around Eldraine or so, so far we really have been seeing the first experiments into it with Innistrad and Kamigawa now made with some more feedback on those first experiments. And while some of them seem like a success, we don't know if we see new cards at similar power and even if we do (or more powerful) it will take a bit to get enough cards made to make a difference with white. A lot of them are also a bit narrow or work in a specific type of deck (which isn't bad) which add to slowing this.



On Draw and ramp;

I like the cantrips on things white is normal good at (life gain, weeines, attacking, tribal), Its also helpful since these kinds of cards might not work the best in EDH and drawing giving them more value to run them.

I like white getting stuff like investigate and monarch, both play into whites flavor and deck types (artifacts and attacking). I get maybe why Monarch can be swingy but I think they should try to do more investigate.

Not a huge fan of "set a rule if an opponent breaks it draw a card" but I really think its very depend on a card by card bias. That said I do like Mila, Crafty Companion like effects that rewards you with draw when your opponents targets your stuff. White isn't suppose to get card advantage due to having a lot of different kind of answers and removal but I do think that is balanced off some if something you control is likely removed to get it.

Per Maro Cosmos Elixir is something he could see in mono-white and we saw this with Sigarda's Splendor which also fixes the issues I see with this effect where it can kinda get win more with Cosmos Elixir where you can end up with a player gaining more life then they are losing and drawing on top of that. Along with the cantrips on life gain I also think its really good in EDH since they can function as draw spells for white with some bonus life gain.

The draw for something white like (weenies, artifacts, enchantments ect) is fine and something white has had just needs some more.

Catch up ramp I think is fine, I think it has a bit of issues with timing as ideally want to play them when your behind on lands but that can cause holding back or losing the advantage. Archaeomancer's Map and Keeper of the Accord like effects are helpful since they trigger every turn and maybe for lower rarities we could see them do in in a one shot effect (like Monstrous or sac'ing the card or giving up a counter it can't easily get more of ect).

I also think they could do a few more Stoic Farmer cards where you can get a basic plains and then play it if you behind otherwise goes into your hand. Adds more utility if your up against a deck that isn't ramping past you when you wanna use the spell.

For ramp I think they should do more Starnheim Courser like effect vs trying to get lands out. White is the one color that cares about all the permanent types in some form so have a lot of options to go with it. This method also has a lot of nobs wotc can try out to see what is the safest and make it as narrow as needed (or maybe even just limit to the first spell you cast of the certain type a turn).



So to basic answer is yes white is getting better, has some space they are exploring and I feel like we are on positive path even if they haven't gotten there yet.

[Cyberium]

I'm more concern with them trying to improve white by giving it green/blue cards, and many cards in green/blue arguably should've been white to begin with. So far they've done a decent job at improving white without completely destroying its identity.

[Mookie]

Somewhat on-topic: today's EDHRECast was about commons, and one of the things they noted is that compared to other colors, White's commons are... pretty terrible. Cultivate is the most-played common in the format, showing up in almost 50% of eligible decks, while White's best common is Soul Warden, showing up at a rate of one tenth of that (5% of decks), which is also much lower than the other colors' best commons (Counterspell in 43%, Dark Ritual in 17%, Faithless Looting in 19%). White could really use some more power in the common slot, particularly in the form of versatile cards that can go in a wide variety of decks (which Soul Warden.... isn't).

I'll also note that because white's commons are so poor, it is even more reliant on rares / mythics than other colors... which means that the cost to build a functional white deck tends to be higher than that of other colors. We may have a different impression of White if Stoneforge Mystic / Weathered Wayfarer / Land Tax were cheap enough to run in every deck that wanted them.

[plushpenguin]

White right now is basically where red was 10 years ago. When development decided that red was too much of a one-trick color and decided to expand its color pie with looting. I consider Faithless Looting the second most important red card in magic because this started this trend of giving red more stuff. Then they started adding more stuff that was rarely seen but completely in red's color pie such as temporary copying and impulse draw. Then they added more stuff like treasures.

If you look at red now, it has theoretically "temporary mana generation and card draw" that is supposedly worse than that of the other colors but is cheaper. They have made red's mana generation good enough that you sometimes see it over green's options despite it having downsides... and on occasion you even see red card advantage that is played in addition to powerful blue and/or black ones because the rate is so good that dealing with the downside is absolute worth it.

And in some rather obscene cases, you even get both in one card!

All white needs to have are cards that, despite their downsides, are powerful enough that they compete with options of the other colors.

That being said, after starting this trend, it did take a good 5+ years for red to get the really nutty stuff..

[Sinis]

They have made red's mana generation good enough that you sometimes see it over green's options despite it having downsides...

Red has viable cards? Some more viable than green?! Absurdity!

In all seriousness, I appreciate how far red has come. Not just faithless looting, but impulse draw. Stuff like Commune with Lava is real and worth running in a lot of r/x decks.

All white needs to have are cards that, despite their downsides, are powerful enough that they compete with options of the other colors.

Man, I hope so. That's all I really want; for decks that have white in them to play something other than the same 5-10 cards.

[duducrash]

People complain about whites lack of power in the format and complaint a lot whenever estabilished white effects get printed. Recently there has been a bunch of "ban drannith magistrate" takes on twitter. MLD is widey hated, tax and stax effects are deeply frowned upon, This led design to a place where they are designing (in my opinion) to give the crowd what they want instead of the best possible game. We got to the point where threats run rampant and slowing the game down archetype hasnt power crept the same. So white without its major identitys is relegated to a good secondary collor and thats it

[5colorsrainbow]

What @plushpenguin said is also kinda a point I wanted to make, red has gotten a lot better but it took a bit of time and I think we are in that in-between phase with white. They have ideas and have gotten some feedback but they are still figuring out just how powerful to go. Maro often talks on when experimenting they will also try to aim for lower power since they don't make a broken card with a design they later don't wanna keep going with, so anything new we see will likely be underpowered until they figure out if they wanna use it.

[Myllior]

If they're ever going to make mistakes in White's favour, I'd love to see some obscene hatebears get printed with heavily-pipped costs. Like maybe an asymmetric Archon of Valor's Reach for 1WWW and it's a 1/2, or a fixed Hullbreacher that doesn't give you treasures (possibly also symmetric). Leaning more into White's ability to protect its permanents and have a sticky/recursive board could also be good.

[ISBPathfinder]

If they're ever going to make mistakes in White's favour, I'd love to see some obscene hatebears get printed with heavily-pipped costs. Like maybe an asymmetric Archon of Valor's Reach for 1WWW and it's a 1/2, or a fixed Hullbreacher that doesn't give you treasures (possibly also symmetric). Leaning more into White's ability to protect its permanents and have a sticky/recursive board could also be good.

The hard part with white hatebears is that white weenie exists as an archetype in other formats. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to this day is still often played in variants of white aggro. If they push the cost up a bit and push a lot of white pips into it its probably fine I was just pointing out that death and taxes / zoo and other formats of white aggro exist so they would have to watch out to not go too crazy or push the cost up high enough that lots of the eternal formats would be less interested in it. Generally speaking four drops can still exist in eternal formats it just depends on how much it does to the meta of that format and how much of its impact is upfront.

My experience with commander and other formats tends to be that most anything that naturally costs 5+ with no cost reduction has to be completely busted to make it into eternal formats (talking like Primeval Titan which is still a modern boogyman in Amulet Titan). Four drops tend to be the top of the modern progression and even then they have to be something crazy to be justified. Most of this is probably irrelevant considering you mentioned wanting a white heavy four drop I was just pointing out some of the challenges of hatebears in commander also often being cross overs to other formats.

[pokken]

I think Drannith Magistrate is a pretty good proof that they can think of powerful white hatebears that have outsized effect in commander but aren't that relevant outside of it. But it's definitely an issue.

Weirdly the more I think about it the more I think that cards like Serra Ascendant, while "mistakes" might be another way to go for white. Like creatures that grow based on the number of opponents you have (like get +1/+1 during each opponent's draw step) or whatever.

If you play around with keywords you can make them really relevant too, vigiance/flying/lifelink trinity are really good at creating relevant creatures that impact the board at size.