Theorycragying (The Legnd of Arena)

[Gashnaw]

The legend of Arena

I know the card itself is not legal for anybody except the ones who own it. (Heroes of the realm has really begun to annoy me with some really cool cards we will never be able to play)
But ignoring that Iw ould like to build a deck around this card I could always proxy it (alng with any other cards that may be out of my price range *Cough* Timetwister *cough* But i am not looking to play decks that require thousands of dollars even if I am Proxying the commander. So i am wanting to build a Wizard tribal deck (obviously) that has a few PWs as well that would probably win if i can get the ultimate off the turn it comes out,

i do want some Proliferate as I may actually be able to pull off some shenanigan's with that. (uptick Arena and get the PW, then thanks to the nullify cost of chapter two, recast almost ignoring Commander tax.

But i still have no idea where to begin with this. All I know is what I want not sure which PWs to play or Creatures to include. Nor am I sure of any alternate win cons without my commander. So i am looking for help.

I should also mention i am not looking for infinite combos or be a total jerk about this. I don't want every game to always end in my favor, as i am sure my friends would start not letting me play these kinds of decks if I win all the time.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I do not not believe there is a fun, fair deck for this card. It drives you to playing plAneswalkers, basically ults them immediately, is immune to most common removal, and self-destructs naturally for misery on spin cycle . I think there was a thread a few months ago about this card specifically, and "unfun nonsense" I believe was the consensus.

Anyway, good luck! Hope you can make something halfway fun, but I personally wouldn't touch it with a 39 1/2 ft pole.

[Gashnaw]

I do not not believe there is a fun, fair deck for this card. It drives you to playing plAneswalkers, basically ults them immediately, is immune to most common removal, and self-destructs naturally for misery on spin cycle . I think there was a thread a few months ago about this card specifically, and "unfun nonsense" I believe was the consensus.

Anyway, good luck! Hope you can make something halfway fun, but I personally wouldn't touch it with a 39 1/2 ft pole.

While I agree that is is quite possible to make a truly oppressively deck, i refuse to acknowledge that just because it is possible means you will. i could sell my collection and make a foiled out cEDH deck, but I don't feel like doing so. It seems pointless to make a deck you always win with. I felt this card, while does allow access to Ulting PWs the turn they enter, does not mean you will win.

Plus, my playgroup has a lot of board wipes.

[Mookie]

The previously-mentioned discussion thread (which you also started). It was also discussed on RCotD here.

Anyway, it's a strong card, and likely broken. The simplest thing you can do with it is fetching up a planeswalker and immediately ult-ing it after a few turns, which is pretty strong. If you have other wizards in the deck (or some proliferate), you can get a nasty emblem waaay ahead of schedule. Narset of the Ancient Way, Narset Transcendent, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets all come to mind, as do Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Venser, the Sojourner.

If you don't want to make your playgroup hate you, you'll probably want to tone things down a bit - perhaps by only running planeswalkers without ultimates (such as Gideon Jura) or the War of the Spark only-tick-down planeswalkers.

[Gashnaw]

The previously-mentioned discussion thread (which you also started). It was also discussed on RCotD here.

Anyway, it's a strong card, and likely broken. The simplest thing you can do with it is fetching up a planeswalker and immediately ult-ing it after a few turns, which is pretty strong. If you have other wizards in the deck (or some proliferate), you can get a nasty emblem waaay ahead of schedule. Narset of the Ancient Way, Narset Transcendent, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets all come to mind, as do Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Venser, the Sojourner.

If you don't want to make your playgroup hate you, you'll probably want to tone things down a bit - perhaps by only running planeswalkers without ultimates (such as Gideon Jura) or the War of the Spark only-tick-down planeswalkers.

Huh, I did start that thread.

Those are rather spicy.
I may play with the less spicy things that exist.

My goal however (While not broadcasted) is to not win the the general. While it is there to help, i am looking more to run teh combos and such needed in the deck.
I played the Kenrith twins a couple years back and one of my win cons was actually going infinite with Chandra, Bold Pyromancer, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Will Kenrith's -2 (Copied somehow, or activated a second time that turn) and Cloudstone Curio.

That combo also works in my Chandra tribal, but it is not nearly as powerful.

Plus i doubt my friend will hate me as much. I played humility + Jace, Architect of thought 5-color superfriends/control. It was a waiting game at that point. my win rate was about 50%, but it got dull. (And i have done a few variants of it too)

I am also building myr Tribal using a custom Myr. So yea, using this could be oppressive (though not my intent), but once again, it could be worse. (Like running Fabled Path of Searo Point or The Cinematic Phoenix)
One is just oppressively overall, and one you are only going to build one type of deck with.

at least Arena is not streamline in one direction.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I do not not believe there is a fun, fair deck for this card. It drives you to playing plAneswalkers, basically ults them immediately, is immune to most common removal, and self-destructs naturally for misery on spin cycle . I think there was a thread a few months ago about this card specifically, and "unfun nonsense" I believe was the consensus.

Anyway, good luck! Hope you can make something halfway fun, but I personally wouldn't touch it with a 39 1/2 ft pole.

While I agree that is is quite possible to make a truly oppressively deck, i refuse to acknowledge that just because it is possible means you will. i could sell my collection and make a foiled out cEDH deck, but I don't feel like doing so. It seems pointless to make a deck you always win with. I felt this card, while does allow access to Ulting PWs the turn they enter, does not mean you will win.

Plus, my playgroup has a lot of board wipes.

Sure, sure, self-restraint yada-yada. I've heard that a billion times, and the key issue with that argument is that the floor for certain commanders, including this one, is so far above the ceiling for the statistical bulk of possible commanders. Even the worst deck built around this thing is probably 10x better than the best Numot the devastator deck, for example, just like the worst Korvold deck is probably the same margin better than the greatest darigaaz the igniter deck. You may not win every game, but you will win more than you would playing a general that isn't an ultra rare, designed-without-game-balance-in-mind promo proxy thing.

Oh, and board wipes can't really stop planeswalker emblems, so I'm not sure what exactly your point is there. This thing serves up planewalkers with ult loyalty ready and you still have priority afterwards. So if you go find Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, you can ult him before any other player can respond with anything. So board wipes =! a real solution to this broken nonsense, so let's drop that nonpoint right now.

And while I'd like to believe you intend to build something fun and interesting, I'd wager a nontrivial amount of money that you actually can't and won't do it. The power and function of the card don't incentivize fun or interaction (seriously, this thing with Priority is stupid). Feel free to throw up a list if you'd care to prove otherwise. And if you're fortunate enough to play some games with it, let us know how they went and the general reaction to this commander. I'd love to know.

[Gashnaw]

Oh, and board wipes can't really stop planeswalker emblems, so I'm not sure what exactly your point is there. This thing serves up planewalkers with ult loyalty ready and you still have priority afterwards. So if you go find Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, you can ult him before any other player can respond with anything. So board wipes =! a real solution to this broken nonsense, so let's drop that nonpoint right now.

if you have say, teh two wizards you get from Arena, that is only +2 loyalty. if you get a board wipe before you get to chapter 3, or don;t have many wizards n eth feild, you may want to quickly dive into something else. Tamiyo would be a great option, but that requires 4 wizards. may not seem like a lot but you have to keep in mind that you have a billboard on the field announcing that something scary is on the way.

Even if i win the first game, Game two is also going to be having a focus on me. Which is now an additional obstacle. meaning i will have to be looking into another option than Tamiyo, Narset or Venser. as they don't prevent combat damage. So Now i am looking at a way to prevent damage, Blocker would be a wise choice. Sadly i cannot use Ajani, Mentor of heroes because that +100 life would be beneficial) Ajani, Caller of the pride is a good answer but you have to keep in mind, if i am not missing a land drop, we are looking at turn 6, I might not have the 4 additional wizards (Spot removal, or an early board wipe just to make sure) i might have already taken a good chunk of damage. You have to keep in mind you need a borad postion to take full advanatage.

this however also changes how you react with chapter 3. You have to make sure you have enough wizard to ult, otherwise you should go for something else. Game one will probably end in my favor, but it depends on how favorful that game is. Game two might still be fruitful, or they saw the potential and will not let me win again.

[Wallycaine]

So the argument for "this deck won't be oppressive/unfun" is "it will make everyone target me out of the gate/after playing a game against it, and still might win"? That's certainly some logic. Personally, I find games against decks that have to be heavily targeted by 3 other people to be "fair" unfun on both sides.

And it's worth pointing out that the failure state after getting board wiped is... getting a planeswalker tutored out of your deck into play. There's plenty of planeswalkers that don't need to ult immediately to be good or game defining, especially if they're dropping onto an empty board. So now not only do the people you're playing against *have* to wipe the board every 3rd turn, but they also need to keep committing hasty creatures to break through your defenses and keep your constant stream of planeswalkers in check.

[onering]

So the argument for "this deck won't be oppressive/unfun" is "it will make everyone target me out of the gate/after playing a game against it, and still might win"? That's certainly some logic. Personally, I find games against decks that have to be heavily targeted by 3 other people to be "fair" unfun on both sides.

And it's worth pointing out that the failure state after getting board wiped is... getting a planeswalker tutored out of your deck into play. There's plenty of planeswalkers that don't need to ult immediately to be good or game defining, especially if they're dropping onto an empty board. So now not only do the people you're playing against *have* to wipe the board every 3rd turn, but they also need to keep committing hasty creatures to break through your defenses and keep your constant stream of planeswalkers in check.

Well, in his favor, that's the same logic behind Golos, Chulane, etc.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So the argument for "this deck won't be oppressive/unfun" is "it will make everyone target me out of the gate/after playing a game against it, and still might win"? That's certainly some logic. Personally, I find games against decks that have to be heavily targeted by 3 other people to be "fair" unfun on both sides.

And it's worth pointing out that the failure state after getting board wiped is... getting a planeswalker tutored out of your deck into play. There's plenty of planeswalkers that don't need to ult immediately to be good or game defining, especially if they're dropping onto an empty board. So now not only do the people you're playing against *have* to wipe the board every 3rd turn, but they also need to keep committing hasty creatures to break through your defenses and keep your constant stream of planeswalkers in check.

Well, in his favor, that's the same logic behind Golos, Chulane, etc.

To his detriment, none of those "etc." commanders are the kind of thing people seem to want to ever play against, pretty prototypically unfun all of them.

[Gashnaw]

So the argument for "this deck won't be oppressive/unfun" is "it will make everyone target me out of the gate/after playing a game against it, and still might win"? That's certainly some logic. Personally, I find games against decks that have to be heavily targeted by 3 other people to be "fair" unfun on both sides.

And it's worth pointing out that the failure state after getting board wiped is... getting a planeswalker tutored out of your deck into play. There's plenty of planeswalkers that don't need to ult immediately to be good or game defining, especially if they're dropping onto an empty board. So now not only do the people you're playing against *have* to wipe the board every 3rd turn, but they also need to keep committing hasty creatures to break through your defenses and keep your constant stream of planeswalkers in check.

Well, in his favor, that's the same logic behind Golos, Chulane, etc.

To his detriment, none of those "etc." commanders are the kind of thing people seem to want to ever play against, pretty prototypically unfun all of them.

Also Derevi. I mean there use to be this guy who went to our LGS who ran derevi and even a 3v1 was not even close. if we ignored him we loss, and if we gang up on him we loss. a 90% win rate. And i was even playing Leovold, Emissary of trest at the time. Along with some other high level decks at the table.

So Derevi might be a ME thing, but i really hate seeing that guy show up. If you are playing him i end up seeing red.
Same guy also ended up play Thrasios & Tymna, and Rakdos. lord of Riots (His weakest deck but still not fun).

in addition to board wipe there sis also enchantment removal. So they could also hold onto their krosan's grip until I cast my general. The thing is, I play with a table that has a lot of answers.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Also Derevi. I mean there use to be this guy who went to our LGS who ran derevi and even a 3v1 was not even close. if we ignored him we loss, and if we gang up on him we loss. a 90% win rate. And i was even playing Leovold, Emissary of trest at the time. Along with some other high level decks at the table.

I mean, doesn't this seem kinda ironic? You mention the unpleasantness of a centralizing, must-answer-every-time commander in the same thread where it seems you're looking to build one. If the only good option is ganging up on your potential LotA deck (as you mentioned prior) to defeat it and even then your odds of victory are still relatively high (by your own admission), you're basically recreating the same 3v1 scenario you just claimed to not enjoy. The only difference seems to be that you'd like to be the beneficiary of the game imbalance, not suffering for it. Imho, that is a not a good thing to seek out.

Edit: cleaning up for clarity

[Gashnaw]

Also Derevi. I mean there use to be this guy who went to our LGS who ran derevi and even a 3v1 was not even close. if we ignored him we loss, and if we gang up on him we loss. a 90% win rate. And i was even playing Leovold, Emissary of trest at the time. Along with some other high level decks at the table.

I mean, doesn't this seem kinda ironic? You mention the unpleasantness of a centralizing, must-answer-every-time commander in the same thread where it seems you're looking to build one. If the only good option is ganging up on your potential LotA deck (as you mentioned prior) to defeat it and even then your odds of victory are still relatively high (by your own admission), you're basically recreating the same 3v1 scenario you just claimed to not enjoy. The only difference seems to be that you'd like to be the beneficiary of the game imbalance, not suffering for it. Imho, that is a not a good thing to seek out.

Edit: cleaning up for clarity

the 3v1 aspect is if tehy plan to knock me down to 0 by turn six, which can happen, but not likely. The other part is that with removal of any sort there is no need t gang up. Krosan grip knocks it down to turn 8 at the latest, get a naturalize and say hi to turn ten. One player plays Mono white, guess how often he can rest the clock. In this scenario minimal resources and i still need to get two more mana to start again. Derevi is still 4 mana each time.
before long the idea of ulting with a PW is no longer feasible, as it is just too expensive without the right payoff. I plan there to be a few games before it balances out and they see what is needed to be done. Or mono white will just play a card that will not let me play my commander (Named card) (Name of card escapes me at the moment)

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I'm just gonna leave this here for your consideration, Gashnaw. Borrowed from your last thread. Think about it.

I have a Chandra tribal deck. I guess I could play less absurd PWs (like tamiyo is pretty good, but she doesn't the hurt other players, just gives you a good advantage of never running out of spells.)
I won't run JTMS
I will also make an attempt to win without always tutoring a PW to ult with. (Lotus god maybe)

The PWs I listed are not game winners, just fun police. I think if I don't play fun police, I can get away with a big more.

I think your card strength analysis is very very incorrect. If you used this to tutor for Jace, the Mind Sculptor I would be extremely relieved. Planeswalker ultimates are designed to win the game almost immediately, JTMS only kills 1 person and tutoring for him would only end up with him 3-4 turns away from ultimating as opposed to Tamiyo who you'd ultimate a turn later at most. I'm going to have to assume you've never seen a successfully ultimated Tamiyo. It's almost impossible to lose after ulting her if the boardstate is anywhere near parity. Normal strong cards become absolutely back breaking. You like counterspell? It's pretty hard for your opponents to fight through endless counterspells and that's a tame card. I hope your opponents didn't need creatures the moment you find swords to plowshares. Heaven forbid you draw cyclonic rift, so they never get a boardstate ever again. That's just normal interaction spells, not even anything that randomly goes infinite like Time Warp.

Another problem with this card is that there will always be a best planeswalker to tutor for. This means your games are likely to feel extremely similar and repetitive.

Seriously though, three extremely experienced magic players are telling you this card is incredibly busted. Be very very very very cautious trying to build a deck around it if you want to play that deck with your friends more than once. Most of the planeswalker ultimates you stated aren't merely "fun police" they're incredibly massive advantages if not straight game ending if you spend even the most minimal time building your deck around them.

[Gashnaw]

I'm just gonna leave this here for your consideration, Gashnaw. Borrowed from your last thread. Think about it.

Well despite everything, look at the bright side, at least i was not asking how to build The Cinematic Phoenix. (He says counting how many CMC of 3 or less Legendary creature he has in Red and/or Black... its not a good deck, but it will win.)

I still think LotA can be build in a non-dickish way.

[materpillar]

I still think LotA can be build in a non-dickish way.

Of coarse it can. I'm going to be blunt here but having read all your responses in this thread and the last I don't think you're capable of building a deck around this card in a non-dickish way.

For example...

Even if i win the first game, Game two is also going to be having a focus on me. Which is now an additional obstacle. meaning i will have to be looking into another option than Tamiyo, Narset or Venser. as they don't prevent combat damage. So Now i am looking at a way to prevent damage, Blocker would be a wise choice. Sadly i cannot use Ajani, Mentor of heroes because that +100 life would be beneficial) Ajani, Caller of the pride is a good answer but you have to keep in mind, if i am not missing a land drop, we are looking at turn 6, I might not have the 4 additional wizards (Spot removal, or an early board wipe just to make sure) i might have already taken a good chunk of damage. You have to keep in mind you need a borad postion to take full advanatage.

Your game plan is to win the first game, then have everyone focus on you game two. Because of this you're theorycrafting what Planeswalkers to get with the express purpose of immediately ulting so you can 3v1 the table. That's not building LotA in a non-dickish way.

My impression from this thread and the last thread is you don't truly want anyone's opinion here. You want everyone to agree with you that the card is neat, balanced and people shouldn't frown upon you for playing it. The card might be neat but it isn't balanced and I would frown upon you for playing it. That being said, feel free to prove me wrong. Throw together a rough draft of your non-dickish list in the decklist section. Until you give me some tangible evidence that this card can be built in a fun way I'm going to assume it's the broken, obnoxious to play against card that it obviously is.

As for non-dickish ideas, maybe you could build hidden commander The Wanderer with Blasphemous Act effects. That'd be kinda neat. As previously mentioned in the last thread, bad Chandra Nalaar tribal wouldn't be awful to play against. I'd give a play against either of those decklists but I would not give a play against any of the deck suggestions you've had in either of these threads.

[Gashnaw]

The Wanderer with Blasphemous Act effects.

This actually sounds like a LOT of fun. universal burn with little to no drawback. Maybe some blink in case of him being attacked.

Too bad there is no PW that also negates Combat damage, heh heh. (Well, aside form the Jace + humility combo I mentioned above)