[SCD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

onering
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
To you. Sorry you guys keep saying stuff isn't interesting like because you don't think it's cool or neat or interesting it objectively isn't.
No, its you that insist it would be interesting. I'm pointing out that merely being different doesn't make it interesting.
onering wrote:
3 years ago
All, or at least most, of those things are arguments for keeping Rof banned
Only one of them is an argument for his banning which is that he creates a lot of mana. The others are just interesting textural elements of his gameplay.
And I talked about how those textural elements of his gameplay are red flags, as they enable him to get around typical constraints of ramp decks and increase his consistency dramatically.
Interestingly, Rof was unbanned at one point and here's what they said when they unbanned and then rebanned:
unban
We think that while strong and possibly have the potential of such terribly anti-social Generals such as Braids, Zur, or Arcum, it also has many social applications. As with any unbanning, we'll keep our eyes peeled, but we seriously doubt that Rofellos will be a format-changing General.

Then they rebanned it along with Staff of Domination
reban
Unbanning Rofellos as a General was a year-long experiment that didn't pan out. We had hoped it would lead to a spate of fun-and-full-of-fat decks, but that wasn't the case.

We've had our eyes on Staff of Domination for a long, long time, and were hoping that someone would find uses for it that didn't include the term 'degenerate.' That hope proved fruitless. Strangely enough, it's the first and cheapest activation that has proved the most troublesome.

So my interpretation of what happened was that there were a ton of Staff of Domination and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary decks at the time. It was before my time but I remember what my early days were like...people were waaaaay whinier about infinite combos back then.

These days, no one bats a single eye at Staff of Domination combo decks because the format is littered with degenerate combos.

The type of decks that they *wanted* from Rofellos are the type of decks I'm talking about that would be fun as hell. Rofellos windmill slamming fatties.

Ten years on, there is just so much degeneracy in the format that metas have to self-police. If metas can self-police around Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy they can self-police around Rofellos.

I know all you guys keep saying 'well then ban Kinnan' - That is not happening, because the banlist is being managed differently. If it were not, Golos woulda been banned ages ago. There is very little reason to think they are banning commanders for creating positive resource advantages these days, at least from what I can tell.
So what your saying is, the decks you want to see from Rof are the same decks the RC wanted to see when they unbanned him, but then they rebanned him because that didn't happen, a decade ago when those decks were far more likely to exist. Ok, thanks for making my argument for me I guess.

BTW, if Staff was the reason Rof got banned, they wouldn't have ALSO banned Staff. Staff being unbanned now doesn't make Rof any more or less likely to get unbanned. Staff, at the time, was THE go to combo that was everywhere, the Paradox Engine of its day, that's why it got banned while other combos didn't.

And, while you picked the quote for Rof and Staff to try to draw a connection to back your argument*, you left out Channel and Tolarian Academy both eating a ban at the same time. Here's the full quote about Rof, including the part you snipped because it contradicted your points,

"Unbanning Rofellos as a General was a year-long experiment that didn't pan out. We had hoped it would lead to a spate of fun-and-full-of-fat decks, but that wasn't the case. First- or second-turn Channel into Emrakul or similar things are simply negatively format-warping. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana"

Oh %$#%, looks like even without considering Staff, which you opined was the reason Rof got rebanned, the real reason given was too much too fast too consistently, with windmill slamming fatties actually being the problem! Yeah, Emrakul is no longer legal, but there's plenty of big plays Rof et al enable, and again, contrary to other ramp commanders, with no deck building requirements beyond "run forests because their better than Ancient Tomb in this deck." Tolarian Academy is even called out for not being as explosive as Rof (let alone not present in the CZ and having more restrictive deckbuilding requirements), but still being too much. This tracks with common sense to me, as TA seems more reasonable to unban, and if they're going to experiment with unbanning then it should be the first. There's more ways to punish artifact decks now as well, but I digress. Channel is less consistent, a big risk, and not in the CZ, but I could see that staying banned just because of how easy it is to fuel out Torment or Exsanguinate to kill the board turn 3-4 (or come close enough putting everyone at like 2 and yourself at 120) that its probably never getting unbanned. They're not tough on combo like they used to be, but interactivity is still an issue, and a cheap, easy to use, counter or die combo like that, added onto just being ridiculous mana turn 2 even without a combo, is a bit different. But yeah, Turn 4 T&N just whenever you draw T&N, just playing your lands and your commander, is just gross nonsense.

Saying "Kinnan and Golos aren't unbanned" is relevant insofar as it points out a problem, but that's not an argument for unbanning Rof. This is a discussion of what the banlist should be based on what the RC claims is its criteria and what's good for the format. Kinnan and Golos fit their criteria and are bad for the format. Them being unbanned doesn't logically proceed to unbanning Rof, as the other option, ban those two cards, is still in play and still more consistent with the banlist. If they come out and say "yeah, Golos and Kinnan are fine, we no longer care about ubiquity, consistency, and that much value coming out of the command zone as reasons to ban cards" then sure, I'll say unban Rof. But right now I'm not going to concede that, because the RC has given no reason to concede the "ban kinnan and golos" argument. They haven't changed what they look for, so those cards being unbanned is still the source of contradiction, not Rof being banned, as they contradict what the RC says about the banlist. Remember also, that the RC is notoriously slow to move most of the time, unless a card is such obvious %$#%$#% that they can't not act (Worldfire just being a garbage experience no matter how its used, for instance). How long did it take, and how loud did cEDH players have to be, for Flash to get banned? How long did it take Paradox Engine to get banned? Three years. How about Iona? Golos has been around for less than two years, Kinnan for what, a year? They seem to give the format time to adjust (too much time in my opinion), for a problem commander to see its play fall off as new shiny toys get released. Golos' play isn't falling off, and the format isn't adjusting to fix the problem, so it absolutely should be banned and I don't think they should wait any longer, but at least I'm aware of their customary glacial pace and incorporate that awareness into my analysis.




*By the way, I wanted to explain why I take such issue with these sort of rhetorical cheats. When you (meaning people generally, not you specifically) misrepresent things by omitting information in order to advance your argument, its insulting. You're talking to actual human beings here, we're going to look it up and know that you left out key information that doesn't support your argument to create the false impression of support for your argument, to be blunt people don't respect attempts to trick them, even if you aren't aware that is what you are doing. Its not a game, its a discussion. You aren't scoring points, you're trying to convince people, and nothing shuts people off from hearing you out and considering your arguments like being lied to. This particular trick, removing the references to Channel and TA bannings, is extremely easy to check up on, its archived in a thread just a couple posts up from this one and directly contradicts the argument you try to advance. There's no need to speculate on why Rof was banned when the RC statement spells it out. This is bad form that poisons the conversation, and I'm taking the time to discuss it rather than %$#% you out because, based on what I've repeatedly seen from you, you are clearly NOT a dick. Still, this is an easy rhetorical trap to fall into, even unconsciously. Its the dark side of rhetoric, and its corrupting by nature. There are some impossible legends on here that repeatedly use this trick purposefully and get pissed when they get called out on it because they think their twice as smart as everyone else when their probably only about half as smart as we think they are.

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

FWIW, I think the RC views cards that are good by themselves differently than those that need other cards to go off. Except for Paradox Engine, cards like Kinnan have not been banned in many years.
Rofellos is much more problematic to the RC because all it needs is basics.

As long as there is no BaaC, Rofellos will stay banned. I understand that in cEDH there are more powerful green commanders, but cards like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds will not be banned as they require more to go off than Rofellos. Rofellos would not upset cEDH, but the power floor for Rofellos is so high that he makes casual EDH a nightmare.

Golos, to me, is a much clearer candidate for banning and I am not sure why the RC has been so slow in this regard.
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 3 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
3 years ago
Golos, to me, is a much clearer candidate for banning and I am not sure why the RC has been so slow in this regard.
What I want: The increase in 5c good-stuff general options like Esika and Jodah mean that Golos is no longer tolerated as the clutch to fill in this niche, therefore eating the ban it deserves.

What I expect: But he's too popular, both in the numerical sense and in supporting really sub-par jank (just a shame he makes that jank feel exactly the same as playing VS any other Golos build).

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

onering wrote:
3 years ago
"Unbanning Rofellos as a General was a year-long experiment that didn't pan out. We had hoped it would lead to a spate of fun-and-full-of-fat decks, but that wasn't the case. First- or second-turn Channel into Emrakul or similar things are simply negatively format-warping. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana"

Oh %$#%, looks like even without considering Staff, which you opined was the reason Rof got rebanned, the real reason given was too much too fast too consistently, with windmill slamming fatties actually being the problem!
The reason I omitted the part about Emrakul and Channel is because they were banned in that same announcement and had nothing to do with rof :P

I think the reason Rof got rebanned is they hated him comboing out which was not just with staff (also staff of the paruns and umbral mantle and a few other jankier ones)

I also think it's pretty obviously implicit in "we expected fun-and-full-of-fat decks" implies they did not get them :P There was no "but the fun and full of fat decks were too fast." The implication is pretty strongly that it was degeneracy going on to me.

I'd love to hear from the RC on that though.

It is obvious that this part:
First- or second-turn Channel into Emrakul or similar things are simply negatively format-warping. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana"
has nothing to do with rofellos. those are other bans :P

Also re: Tolarian Academy is surely less explosive than channel + rofellos, you cannot interpret this as Rofellos is more explosive than Tolarian Academy which is just not true. :P

onering wrote:
3 years ago
*By the way, I wanted to explain why I take such issue with these sort of rhetorical cheats. When you (meaning people generally, not you specifically) misrepresent things by omitting information in order to advance your argument, its insulting. You're talking to actual human beings here, we're going to look it up and know that you left out key information that doesn't support your argument to create the false impression of support for your argument, to be blunt people don't respect attempts to trick them, even if you aren't aware that is what you are doing. Its not a game, its a discussion. You aren't scoring points, you're trying to convince people, and nothing shuts people off from hearing you out and considering your arguments like being lied to. This particular trick, removing the references to Channel and TA bannings, is extremely easy to check up on, its archived in a thread just a couple posts up from this one and directly contradicts the argument you try to advance. There's no need to speculate on why Rof was banned when the RC statement spells it out. This is bad form that poisons the conversation, and I'm taking the time to discuss it rather than %$#% you out because, based on what I've repeatedly seen from you, you are clearly NOT a dick. Still, this is an easy rhetorical trap to fall into, even unconsciously. Its the dark side of rhetoric, and its corrupting by nature. There are some impossible legends on here that repeatedly use this trick purposefully and get pissed when they get called out on it because they think their twice as smart as everyone else when their probably only about half as smart as we think they are.
Like I say above I was not trying to do anything rhetorical trickery wise I was trying to remove discussion of the bans that were not Rofellos. Tolarian academy and channel have nothing at all to do with Rofellos in my mind and the brief comparison is not really something we can interpret anything from (They basically combine Channel + Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and say that is more explosive than a Tolarian Academy deck...well, duh :) Anything + Channel is more explosive than anything.

* If I misinterpreted that and they actually think Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is more explosive than Tolarian Academy on his own, well...I guess as a commander? Maybe? But TA would see play in 100% of artifact decks and almost always be way more explosive. I don't get that argument.

The only statement they made about rofellos that was clear was that they expected fun and full of fat decks and didn't get them.

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Post by onering » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
onering wrote:
3 years ago
"Unbanning Rofellos as a General was a year-long experiment that didn't pan out. We had hoped it would lead to a spate of fun-and-full-of-fat decks, but that wasn't the case. First- or second-turn Channel into Emrakul or similar things are simply negatively format-warping. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana"

Oh %$#%, looks like even without considering Staff, which you opined was the reason Rof got rebanned, the real reason given was too much too fast too consistently, with windmill slamming fatties actually being the problem!
The reason I omitted the part about Emrakul and Channel is because they were banned in that same announcement and had nothing to do with rof :P

I think the reason Rof got rebanned is they hated him comboing out which was not just with staff (also staff of the paruns and umbral mantle and a few other jankier ones)

I also think it's pretty obviously implicit in "we expected fun-and-full-of-fat decks" implies they did not get them :P There was no "but the fun and full of fat decks were too fast." The implication is pretty strongly that it was degeneracy going on to me.

I'd love to hear from the RC on that though.

It is obvious that this part:
First- or second-turn Channel into Emrakul or similar things are simply negatively format-warping. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana"
has nothing to do with rofellos. those are other bans :P

Also re: Tolarian Academy is surely less explosive than channel + rofellos, you cannot interpret this as Rofellos is more explosive than Tolarian Academy which is just not true. :P

onering wrote:
3 years ago
*By the way, I wanted to explain why I take such issue with these sort of rhetorical cheats. When you (meaning people generally, not you specifically) misrepresent things by omitting information in order to advance your argument, its insulting. You're talking to actual human beings here, we're going to look it up and know that you left out key information that doesn't support your argument to create the false impression of support for your argument, to be blunt people don't respect attempts to trick them, even if you aren't aware that is what you are doing. Its not a game, its a discussion. You aren't scoring points, you're trying to convince people, and nothing shuts people off from hearing you out and considering your arguments like being lied to. This particular trick, removing the references to Channel and TA bannings, is extremely easy to check up on, its archived in a thread just a couple posts up from this one and directly contradicts the argument you try to advance. There's no need to speculate on why Rof was banned when the RC statement spells it out. This is bad form that poisons the conversation, and I'm taking the time to discuss it rather than %$#% you out because, based on what I've repeatedly seen from you, you are clearly NOT a dick. Still, this is an easy rhetorical trap to fall into, even unconsciously. Its the dark side of rhetoric, and its corrupting by nature. There are some impossible legends on here that repeatedly use this trick purposefully and get pissed when they get called out on it because they think their twice as smart as everyone else when their probably only about half as smart as we think they are.
Like I say above I was not trying to do anything rhetorical trickery wise I was trying to remove discussion of the bans that were not Rofellos. Tolarian academy and channel have nothing at all to do with Rofellos in my mind and the brief comparison is not really something we can interpret anything from (They basically combine Channel + Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and say that is more explosive than a Tolarian Academy deck...well, duh :) Anything + Channel is more explosive than anything.

* If I misinterpreted that and they actually think Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is more explosive than Tolarian Academy on his own, well...I guess as a commander? Maybe? But TA would see play in 100% of artifact decks and almost always be way more explosive. I don't get that argument.

The only statement they made about rofellos that was clear was that they expected fun and full of fat decks and didn't get them.
It should be obvious that when 3 ramp cards were banned (Emrakul wasn't), and they discuss them all, together, in the same paragraph when talking about WHY they were banned, that those bannings were linked. AND they gave a different reason than the one you are speculating at. In fact, the only card banned in that update that was specifically talked about separate from the three ramp cards was Staff. So clearly, based on what they wrote at the time, the three ramp cards were all banned for the same reason, too much mana, too fast, too consistently in light of the new (at the time) unfun threats of early Eldrazi Titans, NOT because of combos, especially since neither Channel nor TA combo with Staff and they thought that TA, on its own, was less explosive than Rof.

I don't understand why you feel the need to speculate when they spelled out their reasoning like:

"It's clear that especially in the post-Eldrazi world, super-fast, super-reliable early mana production is dangerous to the format. Rofellos, Channel, and Tolarian Academy have all demonstrated they can do this with quite a bit of ease."

I can't imagine how anyone can read that and not see that those three bannings were linked, and that they got banned for being super reliable early mana production.


And yes, I think they might be right with TA vs Rof. Turn 3 Rof is 3 bonus mana off of nothing but forests. Turn 3 TA is, what? Maybe you got sol ring into signet and another artifact, so 3 mana, but that's requiring more than just playing your lands, and sol ring into signet is pretty sweet regardless. It does have the potential to be more explosive, but that's when you're already in a pretty good position anyway. I could see turn 1 crypt into sol ring into signet then drop TA for 3 mana, activating the signet to make 4 total, but that's a ridiculous hand. On average, TA would be less explosive, because its less consistent. And being the commander DOES have a role in this that cannot be discounted. Because Rof is 2 mana, he will be down turn 2 every game, which DOES make him more consistently explosive. If he wasn't legendary, he wouldn't be banned.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

onering wrote:
3 years ago
"It's clear that especially in the post-Eldrazi world, super-fast, super-reliable early mana production is dangerous to the format. Rofellos, Channel, and Tolarian Academy have all demonstrated they can do this with quite a bit of ease."
I totally did not read that sentence lol :) I was looking for specific statements about Rofellos' banning and zero'din on his sentence rather than the holistic one.

My apologies. Definitely not my intention to use selective quoting to make a point.

Note: I do wonder how much the combo degeneracy at the time played a role, hopefully we hear about that at some point.

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

I would so love to play Rofellos withOmnath, Locus of Mana just to see :explode: from how many counters it would have....
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Post by onering » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
onering wrote:
3 years ago
"It's clear that especially in the post-Eldrazi world, super-fast, super-reliable early mana production is dangerous to the format. Rofellos, Channel, and Tolarian Academy have all demonstrated they can do this with quite a bit of ease."
I totally did not read that sentence lol :) I was looking for specific statements about Rofellos' banning and zero'din on his sentence rather than the holistic one.

My apologies. Definitely not my intention to use selective quoting to make a point.

Note: I do wonder how much the combo degeneracy at the time played a role, hopefully we hear about that at some point.
This is why I made sure to say you're clearly NOT a dick lol, its a rare virtue in internet land.

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Post by Swift2210 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Yes I am 100% sure he can't compete in cedh. He requires too high a land count, can't really play Mana dorks (the most powerful part of mono green) effectively as Mana sources and can't play the slow game he's optimally designed for that uses forest based ramp for resiliency.

His combo pieces cannot be tutored for in green and he will struggle to draw enough cards to compete.

In cedh he would be forced to be a stax deck. His best element is his ability to make static orb and collector ouphe great, maybe hall of gemstone.

Selvala is much stronger in competitive because she draws cards while going off. Rofellos deck would need to play a metric ton of awful card draw effects to try to combo fast.

I do think it's arguable that rof is better in lower power but again I think people don't really give azusa the respect she deserves. :) Rof has a bit of a glass cannon issue and some serious constraints of forest count..

The bottom line is that being a green deck that has tension with cradle and nykthos is a really sketchy place to be.
Greetings gentlemen. So this is where folks moved. Good to see some familiar faces. On the idea of building Rofellos into a Cedh caliber deck I have some ideas. I'd lean towards forgoing stax pieces other than Manglehorn and Karn, the Great Creator. You're not going to ever run enough meaningful interaction to stop opponents just focus on ramp draw and building a board to get you there as soon as possible to sneak in some wins. I think the most efficient green tutorable line would be through Ashaya, Soul of the Wild and Quirion Ranger or Scryb Ranger into Temur Sabertooth and something like Elvish Visionary to draw your library. So thats like 2-3 green creature tutors in a list packed with creature tutors. Rest of the list would just be accelration + draw. I'd guess it would likely goldfish around T3-5. That's reasonable. And that's a whole lot of work just so you can take an underdog commander onto a cedh table. I've played a lot of Azusa and it gratifies me to see her mentioned once in a very long while. I wouldn't play Rofellos in my Azusa list it's too slow; only mana dork I found worth waiting for and running there is Stone-Seeder Hierophant. Next up, I need to check out the Azusa lists here

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Swift2210 wrote:
3 years ago
On the idea of building Rofellos into a Cedh caliber deck I have some ideas. I'd lean towards forgoing stax pieces other than Manglehorn and Karn, the Great Creator. You're not going to ever run enough meaningful interaction to stop opponents just focus on ramp draw and building a board to get you there as soon as possible to sneak in some wins
It's pretty unfortunate that rof's one card combos are all artifacts that get shut down by Collector Ouphe who is probably the second best green card in CEDH outside of mana dorks :P (the best being probably Veil of Summer I think?)

Rof does have an advantage over a lot of the other mono green commanders which is that he's sometimes better against Pyroclasm without all the mana dorks, and can play a fair game ending in a huge Finale of Revelation fairly easily.
Swift2210 wrote:
3 years ago
I think the most efficient green tutorable line would be through Ashaya, Soul of the Wild and Quirion Ranger or Scryb Ranger into Temur Sabertooth and something like Elvish Visionary to draw your library.
I think you nailed the right line with Ashaya , and it is nice that it beats Cyclonic Rift, but it's way, way less consistent than Selvala, Heart of the Wilds who wins without needing to find ashaya or elvish visionary, just one of the fat beaters who cost nothing, and gets to play mana dorks who win with finale more easily. She's a bit more fragile in some ways but not dying to Pyroclasm is cool I guess.

Fundamentally I think you're right that you could make the deck to steal some wins but I don't see it being any better than Yisan/Selvala in CEDH.

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Post by Swift2210 » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think you nailed the right line with Ashaya , and it is nice that it beats Cyclonic Rift, but it's way, way less consistent than Selvala, Heart of the Wilds who wins without needing to find ashaya or elvish visionary, just one of the fat beaters who cost nothing, and gets to play mana dorks who win with finale more easily. She's a bit more fragile in some ways but not dying to Pyroclasm is cool I guess.

Fundamentally I think you're right that you could make the deck to steal some wins but I don't see it being any better than Yisan/Selvala in CEDH.
Yes, there is a reason a foil Selvala sells for 300+. It's pretty good. I think it's at the top of the monogreen hierarchy in a tier by itself. Haven't built it, but just looking at lists and some brainstorming it's very efficient and really easy to break. Yisan and Azusa are good imo, but a step under. Azusa is my favorite

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Swift2210 wrote:
3 years ago
Azusa is my favorite
I look forward to seein your updated Azusa list, I used your original one on Sally as the basis for my Gitrog deck's first build :)

I still think she's better than Rofellos personally. Too much power in the lands slot to have 30+ forests in a deck nowadays.

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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

Do we really think my boy still deserves to be banned? :P He's down to like, the 5th best mono green commander now and every time a Boseiju, Who Endures or Castle Garenbrig level land gets printed he gets worse.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 9 months ago

There is just so much broken things that we can do and busted commanders that are legal that I have a hard time really hatting on Rofellos these days. There are commanders that by commander choice alone you are going to look a little more competitive in general and I don't really think Rofellos is in any real way worse than them. Hell, I would have a hard time making any real argument for any of the previous banned as a commander legends still being banned considering how ridiculous cEDH is these days. Even when not running cEDH there is some really rough stuff that is legal that we mostly have to navigate via social discussion.
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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
9 months ago
There is just so much broken things that we can do and busted commanders that are legal that I have a hard time really hatting on Rofellos these days. There are commanders that by commander choice alone you are going to look a little more competitive in general and I don't really think Rofellos is in any real way worse than them. Hell, I would have a hard time making any real argument for any of the previous banned as a commander legends still being banned considering how ridiculous cEDH is these days. Even when not running cEDH there is some really rough stuff that is legal that we mostly have to navigate via social discussion.
yall played against Etali, Primal Conqueror // Etali, Primal Sickness yet? Not even cedh just "casual" builds. they're cranking out some serious heat in the command zone these days.

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Post by Mookie » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
9 months ago
Do we really think my boy still deserves to be banned? :P He's down to like, the 5th best mono green commander now and every time a Boseiju, Who Endures or Castle Garenbrig level land gets printed he gets worse.
I maintain my opinion of Rofellos (leaning towards 'no unban'). Sure, every time a new sweet land is printed, Rofellos gets a little worse... but every time a new strong 5 or 6-drop is printed, he gets better. Is T2 Rofellos → T3 Kodama of the East Tree / Nissa, Who Shakes the World / Elder Gargaroth broken? Maybe not, but doing so every single game (no Sol Ring / ramp / fast mana required, just some basic Forests) still feels a little pubstomp-y (to say nothing of if we ever get another Primeval Titan / Sylvan Primordial-level card).

I do agree that there are stronger commanders available, but I also don't think unbanning him would be a net positive for the format - his default play pattern feel pretty oppressive. It's possible that he could be kept out of decks due to social reasons... but 'mono-green big stompy things' sounds like a classic Timmy starter deck.

...I also don't like the idea of adding another expensive RL card to the format. While he may be 'only' $30 at the moment, I assume his price would spike massively if unbanned. I dislike cards like Jeweled Lotus / Mana Crypt / Gaea's Cradle that are objectively broken but generally kept out of decks due to financial reasons, and I think Rofellos would fall into that bucket.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 9 months ago

@mookin I think its important to point out that unbanning him would likely allow him to see play in the 99 again. I agree that I don't really want to play against him as a commander but I also don't want to play against Urza, Lord High Artificer ever. I would honestly rather play against Rofellos than Urza in my own opinion but I think that unbanning him is meaningful to his play in the 99. Do I think mono green needs Rofellos in the 99? No but I think his flavor is kind of cool enough I think its an asset over a negative.
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Post by kirkusjones » 9 months ago

Is the thinking that the Modern/Legacy unbans will influence the RC to unban something? I'd love to run the Roflcoptor again. Or get a crack at Recurring Nightmare shenanigans.

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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

I think it is high time they do *something*. The banlist is super stagnant and doesn't represent that much of the reality of the format these days. Half the band are meaningless and cards that are absolutely toxic are just left to self police. To an extent it works but then I have to play against Thassa's Oracle in a casual pod.

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Post by Mookie » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
9 months ago
I think it is high time they do *something*. The banlist is super stagnant and doesn't represent that much of the reality of the format these days. Half the band are meaningless and cards that are absolutely toxic are just left to self police. To an extent it works but then I have to play against Thassa's Oracle in a casual pod.
Disclaimer: I have a bias towards the status quo for EDH, so I rarely call for bans or unbans.

Broadly speaking, I consider cards on the banlist to fall into one of three clusters (ignoring Shahrazad / ante / etc that are banned for non-gameplay reasons): In terms of banning logic:
  • It's pretty easy to justify a ban in the first category. Unbanning a moxen doesn't add anything particularly exciting to the format, and just takes up a deck slot in every deck that can play it.
  • It's also pretty easy to justify a ban in the second category - the cards are miserable to play against. However, it's also easy to justify an unban, since they probably wouldn't see significant play. The question for these cards is 'is the social contract sufficient to keep them out of most metas'?
  • the third category is the trickiest to evaluate. The argument in favor of an unban is that the cards are fun to play with. The argument in favor of keeping them banned is that the cards are unfun to play against. It's hard to determine whether they result in a net positive for the format without testing.
I consider Rofellos to fall mostly in the third bucket. Thinking about it a bit more, there are three broad use cases for Rofellos: So I suppose my main sticking points are that I think the social contract is insufficient to keep Rofellos out of the command zone, and I think he's still obnoxious in the 99 of monogreen decks. If you think the social contract is sufficient, and that an extra piece of fast mana in the 99 is acceptable, then I'll accept your logic for unbanning Rofellos as valid.

....anyway, apparently I'm now in favor of unbanning Biorhythm, because no one would play it and it doesn't do anything you can't already do with Craterhoof Behemoth. :P

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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

Dude there are so many busted mana dorks. Most 2+ color decks wouldn't play him because he requires a fetch manabase and significant lucksacking and doesn't fix mana. He'd be at worst a boost to mono green.

Bloom Tender , Faeburrow Elder, Voyaging Satyr, Ilysian Caryatid , Incubation Druid, Gyre Sage. And on and on and on. Priest of Titania even.

Rof is not even a reliable tapfor GG in a 3+ color deck. Very often underperforming Sylvan Caryatid

wanted to add a bit re: mono colored decks
Mookie wrote:
9 months ago
So I suppose my main sticking points are that I think the social contract is insufficient to keep Rofellos out of the command zone, and I think he's still obnoxious in the 99 of monogreen decks. If you think the social contract is sufficient, and that an extra piece of fast mana in the 99 is acceptable, then I'll accept your logic for unbanning Rofellos as valid.
Here's the thing; I thinkt he most attractive thing about rof is being a mono green general - he's a solid power level, rather budget outside of what he'll cost (probably $100), and isn't nearly as tedious to play against as the other mono green power houses (that generally involve repeated tutoring, a million landfall triggers, eldrazi, etc.). He creates a pretty unique mono green deck that doesn't provide any card advantage in the commandzone so is delicate to build.

I don't see any issue with his power level; he's much weaker than Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, but on a similar power level as Azusa, Lost but Seeking who see almost no play anymore.

In a mono green deck, he's just a pretty decent mana dork in a color that weirdly is short of mana dorks outside of elves. Because of color restrictions, a lot of mana dorks aren't available to mono green (e.g. Deathrite Shaman and Noble Hierarch). So your options are basically elves, or Incubation Druid / Ilysian Caryatid for decent dorks.

Sure, he can combo with stuff, but so does a ham sandwich in EDH.

I think considering Rof "fast mana" on the level of Mana Crypt is just...not correct. He costs GG which is an extremely awkward mana cost, and requires specific land types. He's basically strictly worse than Bloom Tender in multicolor decks, and nobody is clamoring for a ban there.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 9 months ago

There are also a lot of commanders out there that combine ramp and draw together that didn't used to exist. The power in the command zone has increased a LOT in the last few years unfortunately and a lot of the old legends have had some level of falloff. This isn't just me moaning about competitive cards running around without needed bans but the older cards just don't stand out as much among the newer legends the way they used to. I can't actually put a date on when Rofellos was re-banned but I want to spitball something around 2014 timeframe when they removed the banned as a commander concept.

I think that a lot of the powerful draw engine commanders also compete in the same pool of cards as Rofellos as the ability to lean hard into ramp in the 99 and push into draw from the commander can hit very similarly and the pool of cards that do that has expanded a lot.

My argument isn't that he wouldn't be powerful so much as there has been a lot of power creep and I don't think he is the level of problem he was in the past.
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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
9 months ago
My argument isn't that he wouldn't be powerful so much as there has been a lot of power creep and I don't think he is the level of problem he was in the past.
The more I think about it the more I think the main reason for unbanning is just consistency. We've decided we are not banning Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy anymore because the pool of legends is so huge and the spectrum of power levels has gotten so nuts.

Having a dude like Rof on the list tells people maybe they can expect Kinnan bans, when in reality the only generals getting banned anymore are Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and Leovold, Emissary of Trest level %$#%$#%. Your meta has to self police high powered but not ubiquitous generals with self-restraint and discussion.

That's the expectation the banlist sets, whether you agree with it or not.

If the meta can self-police Kinnan, it can absolutely self-police Rofellos.

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Post by umtiger » 9 months ago

My feelings on unbanning Rofellos have changed. I would like for him to be unbanned now. Sure, it'd be cool to play him as my commander.

However, my thoughts on Rofellos and why he is banned remain the same.

1.) I don't consider playing mono-green and overly building around forests to be deck constraints in the context of Rofellos. Like, you don't choose to play a 3-color commander and then get say, but I don't have access to WUBRG.

2.) You could give Rofellos to any person who just started playing and buying boosters. Give them 30 forests and it'd probably be a playable AND STRONG deck really fast just from them cracking a few packs a week.

3.) Someone with absolutely no deck building skills will have GGGGGG on turn 3 every game. I sponsor an after-school club at school for my students. That start would win every single game of commander in the club of ~20 students. FWIW, it would also defeat the teachers who have their own cards and who routinely join in the club as well

You have consistently used Kinnan as the measuring stick. With Kinnan, at least you still have to include certain cards. Of course, those "certain cards," a more experienced player would want to include anyways just for the sake of powering up any deck.

But building a good Rofellos deck vs a good Kinnan deck with just the cards my students have on hand, Rofellos would easily win.

Of course, no one has Rofellos anyways so building Rofellos with just cards on hand is a moot point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If they unleash Rofellos, could they also unleash Erayo for me. I would enjoy playing it with Arcane Laboratory again. Especially now coming back to MTG after a 4 year absence and seeing crap like Jeweled Lotus...

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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

I think Rof being a very simple deck is a feature more than a bug. It's great to have simple options.

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