Is Old Busted Still Busted?

[Boros_Blendo]

I played with my friends last night and the five person game ended pretty quickly after my friend dropped Tiamat, only to drop something like 12 dragons and essentially nuke the table. It was an impressive synergy. So that got me thinking. Old busted used to be stuff like Uril, the Miststalker, Mayael the Anima, and Craterhoof Behemoth. I've been mulling combining a Xenagos, God of Revels deck with a Rhonas the Indomitable fight club deck and helming with Uril or Mayael, depending on how the cardlist shakes out. Has the creep overall of cards overtaken these older busted cards, or has the creep of support cards kept older busted cards in relevancy still as busted? I've never owned a Craterhoof Behemoth before (because it was busted), but any Naya deck now will have it for sure, since it is a behemoth (kinda fitst the theme).

What old busted cards in your experience are now perfectly fine to play because they've been powered into actual play relevance outside of cEDH?

[Avacyn Believer]

I can't think of the last time I've seen Cratehoof being played, or many of the old cards I still consider busted but starting to realize are in the past, like Avenger of Zendikar. Lot of the new players just won't know them I suppose because they don't get re-printed, and because we have so many more and new busted cards.

Mayael the Anima is one of my oldest decks, and unless my opponents have been playing for a long time, they don't even know who she is.

Tiamat is definitely a busted card, every WUBRG dragon deck I played against just plays the same. Yeah the synergy is impression but I think its because there are so many busted dragon cards, and even more cards to support them (like making them cheaper to cast). Someone should remind Wizards there are other tribes that could use that amount of attention

[TheGildedGoose]

Uril, the Miststalker and especially Mayael the Anima were never good exactly. We just didn't know better. It's more complicated than mere power creep, our understanding of the format has evolved since the 00's and as a result, decks are faster and more consistent than ever. Sure, more powerful options in the command zone exist now than in the good old days, I just think it's a more nuanced and complex discussion than older cards being outclassed by newer ones.

Craterhoof Behemoth is still very strong and I see it often in creature decks.

[RxPhantom]

Uril and Mayael are part of the old guard of a bygone era. I miss that time.

[Treamayne]

Uril, the Miststalker and especially Mayael the Anima were never good exactly. We just didn't know better.

Uril and Mayael are part of the old guard of a bygone era. I miss that time.

I can recall (in the pre-Gahiji days) when my Beast Tribal was always Target #1 because Uril was the only Legendary Beast, but nobody would ever believe the deck only had 1 aura (that could not even enchant Uril - Curse of Stalked Prey)

Some of the bogey men from that era are probably still strong even if they don't see as much play (Zur the Enchanter, Insurrection), and some are probably just too slow now (Birthing Pod).

[Boros_Blendo]

Are support cards that shut down some lines of play, cards like Aether Flash, considered not-cool, or is pretty much anything goes at this point? Same sort of question with Mayael's Aria as alternate win cons.

There are lots of go-wide decks in my group, so packing littles-control is paramount for a big creature deck, and then boosting a critter to get a 20 power would be something easily usable as a big hit, or to feed the Aria if it's in hand. With critters like Malignus, 20 power is actually pretty easy.

[yeti1069]

Craterhoof is and will always be busted. I run it in 2 decks, in one as a finisher where other options wouldn't really cut it. I've lost to a Natural Order-->Hoof on too many occasions. That's pretty obnoxious.

[Avacyn Believer]

but nobody would ever believe

Just like trying to convince people "this is a friendly Kaalia deck"

[Boros_Blendo]

When I started playing my Sliver Queen deck in my group, I always started with the declaration...really, this is not a sliver deck. It's actually not, instead a rainbow token matters deck, but I could see myself making such a declaration if I ever took it to a store. Some commanders simply elicit suspicion no matter the content. Lol

And, it's not the Sliver Queen that is the problem. Gaea's Cradle and Xenagos, the Reveler with their mana cause the deck to go boom. hehe...and yes, I know the cradle is 100% completely busted, always has been since the day it came out. But if you own one, you play with it. Cuz, why not?

[ISBPathfinder]

Uril, the Miststalker was only reasonable because if you untapped with him your next action was to drop an aura and then Armageddon. And that was still weak to blue but in the days of old a hexproof commander was good because it was less ways that you could get tucked and interreacted with.

[3drinks]

but nobody would ever believe

Just like trying to convince people "this is a friendly Kaalia deck"

I feel this like adrenaline in my soul. No matter how many times I attempt to convince the table that Kaalia isn't the threat, she's the proactive aggressor that keeps non-interactive decks honest, it never ends well. And, surprise, the non-interactive combo deck wins as I pointed out at the start of the game.

Uril, the Miststalker and especially Mayael the Anima were never good exactly. We just didn't know better. It's more complicated than mere power creep, our understanding of the format has evolved since the 00's and as a result, decks are faster and more consistent than ever. Sure, more powerful options in the command zone exist now than in the good old days, I just think it's a more nuanced and complex discussion than older cards being outclassed by newer ones.

You will pry my Uril, the Miststalker + Runes of the Deus from my cold, dead hands. I kid, mostly, last time I did Uril stuff it was a secret Tooth and Nail deck for Realm Razer + Prime Time.

Leave my janky Uril + Contested Cliffs removal engine alone!

[onering]

The format has sped up too much for Voltron to be a true Boogeyman, and people run more stuff that deals with Uril at instant speed. Cyclonic Rift was the nail in its coffin. Uril now is pretty fair.

Mayael always sucked. It wasn't even the best at what it did at the time.

Craterhoof and Avenger see less play but are absolutely still great. I have never seen an Avenger come down and not effect the game significantly unless the pilot was otherwise hellbent and losing badly. Hoof still just wins games, it plays like a combo.

[Avacyn Believer]

No matter how many times I attempt to convince the table that Kaalia isn't the threat, she's the proactive aggressor that keeps non-interactive decks honest, it never ends well.

Tell me about it, I was so disappointed when I got into EDH in 2017 and found out the hate Kaalia had even back then. I love all the tribes she supports and not being able to play her without being hated on every game sucked, which is why I switched to Mayael. Thinking about it, I should build Kaalia again, now that I can afford fast mana and good protection spells.

Mayael always sucked.

You take that back! Mayael is fun to play

[pokken]

Consecrated Sphinx still ends games.

In general a lot of the old busted stuff is still absolutely the knees, people just don't know about it as much so it's not part of the collective unconscious.

One of my favorite "staple" cards that is no longer relevant is Progenitor Mimic -- and yet, I've played it and had it absolutely dominate the game multiple times. It's wild.

On the reg people will be surprised by random cards I play that're old former staples, stuff like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is one I can think of that surprises people for some reason. It's not as dominant really cos more people run more removal.

I dunno, even like Sun Titan is hardly played anymore but I'll drop it and chain a Phantasmal Image and then kill the table with an unsurmountable mana advantage.

Probably the biggest thing I used to see all the time that I never see is Sword of Feast and Famine -- another one where I'll occasionally play it as goodstuff and people are like huh, that's pretty good :D

[PrimevalCommander]

Zur the Enchanter still busted
Rafiq of the Many not so much
The Mimeoplasm "who?"
Uril, the Miststalker, nope
Kaalia of the Vast, pretty good still
Animar, Soul of Elements still busted
Karador, Ghost Chieftain, fair but playable
Riku of Two Reflections trash
Sharuum the Hegemon holding it's own with combos
Sedris, the Traitor King too slow
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest not sure it was busted, but hey, doublestrike.
Captain Sisay tutors are strong
Scion of the Ur-Dragon see above + dragons are good now
Horde of Notions OG elemental tribal, but to get any value??

[Boros_Blendo]

One of my favorite "staple" cards that is no longer relevant is Progenitor Mimic -- and yet, I've played it and had it absolutely dominate the game multiple times. It's wild.

Haha, I love Progenitor Mimic! I run him in Prime Speaker Zegana, and yeah, he's deal with it or deal with the horde he turns into. I throw Vesuvan Doppelganger, Altered Ego, or Vesuvan Shapeshifter on him for extra fun. He doesn't always win games, but he ALWAYS has the potential for that.

Horde of Notions OG elemental tribal, but to get any value??

I run a Horde deck, all creatures are elementals, too. The Horde's still a beefy 5/5 with some good stats, and getting things like Magmatic Force or other killers back is sometimes needed. In the last game I played with, my Horde deck got Smokebraider out early with other ramp and powered out such a powerful board, my opponents had to team me or lose...I didn't win. I might have survived the teaming up, but Baleful Force had pretty much sucked me dry in the process. Sometimes black is too costly...

[PrimevalCommander]

@Boros_Blendo Agreed that Horde is still playable and fun elemental commander, but have you seen what a Jodah, the Unifier deck can do? While also being a 5/5 that grows to one-shot range minimal help. Paying for value is downright tame compared to 5c commanders of today. How long was Golos, Tireless Pilgrim running around getting 3 cards at any mana value for only and ramping into it with Coffers+Urborg+Cascading Cataracts/Crystal Quarry.

For elementals the Omnaths can pump out some serious value with no additional mana investment beyond initial cast.

I actively dislike any legendary creature that has the words "Draw a Card" on it. Only one of my Commanders have the word Draw on it and it's Zurzoth, Chaos Rider if that tells you anything . So many Commanders today are just too easy-mode with having built-in protection + Fuel + Payoff it's rediculous. Looking at you Voja, Jaws of the Conclave , Tivit, Seller of Secrets , Hakbal of the Surging Soul , and to a lesser extent Pantlaza, Sun-Favored. The decks are boringly repetitive when commander says "Do this one thing and get value" all you want to do is that one thing as many times as possible to milk out as much value. I know many commanders feel like this, but at least commanders without "Draw a card" have to diversify a bit to account for the draw they need and get a little creative to find the card draw that works well with the theme. /endrant.

[Avacyn Believer]

The decks are boringly repetitive when commander says "Do this one thing and get value" all you want to do is that one thing as many times as possible to milk out as much value.

I find this to also be the case with many commanders. I generally like Simic cards but when I make a deck with them it so often ends up drop lands and draw cards, and just ends up not much fun.

[folding_music]

^I find Korlessa, Scale Singer is an antidote to the usual Simic ramp and grab experience! sort of a puzzle to be solved in deck construction.

[Boros_Blendo]

^I find Korlessa, Scale Singer is an antidote to the usual Simic ramp and grab experience! sort of a puzzle to be solved in deck construction.

And Prime Speaker Zegana definitely fits in the Simic cast/reap category. But, I was just thinking about Simic shenanigans. I have never tried to use Progenitor Mimic as a duplicator of Master Biomancer. Why, I can't fathom, as each copy triggers on the next creature, resulting in creatures etb as absolute titans, whether from the Mimic or me casting them. Hmmm...very Simic. I'll have to try that for grins.