Ratadrabik Legendary Death Loops

[ChocoDude]

I'll be curious to hear your report in a few weeks. Of the cards you listed like the idea of Blade of Selves, Mirror of the Forebears, Mirage Mirror, and Saw in Half, which I'm already running.

I feel like Legion Loyalty is definitely a finisher when it works, but otherwise it's a dead card in hand most of the time. And the colorless tapped land...meh.

[pokken]

Man this really the future of commander isn't it :D best thing to do is play a strong commander that scales and then make as many as you can.

[kirkusjones]

Man this really the future of commander isn't it :D best thing to do is play a strong commander that scales and then make as many as you can.

My group has a love/hate relationship with my "count to ten" build of Talion, the Kindly Lord.

Definitely want to try out some of these tricks in my Rata build. I can't believe I didn't jam Saw in Half into the deck from the start.

[ISBPathfinder]

Alongside of considering the multiple commander design I was also curious of thoughts of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. It seems like a little bit of a winmore situation but let me spell out what I was thinking with this.

You can animate Gideon to be a creature and then sac him to trigger commander copies. If you have multiple commanders, multiple token gen, or multiple death triggers you get more than one copy and then proceed to stack multiple permanent anthems into play. Gideon being able to animate as a creature is a bit unique of the walkers allowing any of the gideons to split stack like this.

I feel like I would want a minimum of 2 emblems out of him and 3+ seems like you probably broke the game kind of level. If I can work at least a second planeswalker into the list I also think that Arena Rector becomes sort of viable.

[ChocoDude]

Gideon doesn't become a legendary creature, so you can't get Commander copies. You could still benefit from the token doublers though.

[ISBPathfinder]

Gideon doesn't become a legendary creature, so you can't get Commander copies. You could still benefit from the token doublers though.

Its contingent of using his own ability to animate him first so you don't get to emblem with the original the point of it is really only if you have a means of splitting into 2+ copies on death.

If you are confused about the legendary part, all planeswalkers are legendary. I have absolutely no clue why they sometimes put it in and sometimes don't but if you look at different art of Gideon Jura|Commander Masters vs Gideon Jura its odd. Every planeswalker is legendary and sometimes they put it in and sometimes they don't. I am sure someone who knows more can classify why and where they do vs don't but I have no idea.

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[ChocoDude]

Yeah I was confused about how it would be a legendary creature, but on Gatherer one of the rulings is that it retains its types in addition to being a creature. Makes sense now. Thanks.

Seems like something fun to test out. Would definitely be better with Rata and at least another token doubler on the board to get to +4/+4 quickly. That's a similar rate to Elesh Norn, but without the benefit of taking out a few opposing creatures (or more if you can copy her). Less oppressive too, but I've had a couple good games with her out.

[ISBPathfinder]

Yeah I was confused about how it would be a legendary creature, but on Gatherer one of the rulings is that it retains its types in addition to being a creature. Makes sense now. Thanks.

Seems like something fun to test out. Would definitely be better with Rata and at least another token doubler on the board to get to +4/+4 quickly. That's a similar rate to Elesh Norn, but without the benefit of taking out a few opposing creatures (or more if you can copy her). Less oppressive too, but I've had a couple good games with her out.

Yea, I think it could work but the assembly required for it is probably a bit high when you compare it with the idea of just casting and resolving Elesh Norn. Lots of the same tricks could work with her as well with the downside that she is generally going to be easier to remove but her immediate impact and less complexity probably make her better. I will probably just move on but it was an interesting thought.

OOOOOK I have been poking my list nonstop for like the last week trying to figure out where I want to go with it. I really wanted to strip it back to some of the bare bones and try out some new things. I am assuming not all of this is going to stick but I wanted to slim things down and build it back up and see how the testing goes.

CUTS:

• Viscera Seer - honestly, I do want the sac outlets for the deck and he might come back. His only issue was not being legendary making him easier to target and a big loss in wraths.
• Ashnod, Flesh Mechanist - I don't think its wrong to do a low curve idea I just didn't have the draw payoffs it felt like to justify keeping it in without it doing more for me itself.
• Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - its a bit odd to cut as I can't remember a single time ever drawing her. I do need sac outlets but costing mana to do so is a bit tough. I did like her being a cheap deathtoucher as well in general but I can't remember ever drawing her and I am trying to cut a bunch.
• Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - There were times she did some work but it just being so dependant on my opponents deck design was a little tough for me. I needed more proactive things as well as more generic answers.
• Teysa, Orzhov Scion - I saw her a few times but it was hard to get enough deaths going to get the tokens. Often after playing her the board would get wrathed on me. I never did get any great results from her but I also don't think she is a bad idea. I just wasn't able to spin my wheels hard enough to make her work or the deck would win before it could make her function.
• Body Launderer - The rez was actually solid and I didn't hate the looting. I could see trying it out again dispite not being a legend I just wanted to make a bunch of room to try out more stuff.
• Sheoldred, the Apocalypse - It was cute but this deck is too much of a combo wincon for the syphon to really matter that much for my own deck. I couldn't really lean into her any harder than making her hard to remove and she draws hate like nobody's business.
• Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - I still stand by that this card can work. I never saw it though and in hindsight I like the double death triggers, double token gens, and stuff like Lifeline more. It is a workable card but for the mana being at the top of the curve I think its worse than a lot of other things that I run for less mana.
• Expedition Map - I realized that a lot of my utility lands weren't as good or neccessary as I thought. I tend to run map when there is a land I always want and I kind of didn't see amazing results from my lands.
• Bastion of Remembrance - It was decent and I did kill players a few times off of it but it felt a little winmore. I wasn't losing enough life to my own deck often enough and the life it gave me back without outright killing everyone kind of levels didn't seem to matter much.
• Gift of Immortality - I didn't find or draw it and it might circle back in because I think its great but it also needs some setup to function and it draws a lot of attention.
• Grave Pact - The setup required to pact felt a little high so I decided to go away from it. I never did have a great pact play even though I had a few options to get or cast it they just didn't line up for me.
• Crypt of Agadeem - I realized that I wasn't drawing enough cards or self milling to really ever set this card up. It was a cute idea but it never payed off.
• Minas Tirith - I am not really attacking outside of for lethal kind of situations so this didn't matter.
• Myriad Landscape - I ended up with too many three mana plays which made this land more awkward. It made sense when I had more high end curve to my list but as I have been lowering it it made less sense.
• Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - Nykthos can work but being two color a lot of times I am splitting my devotion and the setup time for it to start working is usually about when I have so many things I win the game so I haven't actually activated it for positive mana outside of being a land.
• Westvale Abbey - It was a cute thought but I decided against it. The legend creature is still fine but it dying for 2/2s isn't impressive and sacing 5 is tough in this list as it stands.

ADDS:

• Mirror of the Forebears - more commander
• Mirage Mirror - more commander
• Saw in Half - more commander
• Blade of Selves - more commander
• Legion Loyalty - more commander
• Hancock, Ghoulish Mayor - going to be honest here, I don't know if this one will work out or not but I want to try him out. Getting 4 bodies out of him seems fun and it could be even more with help.
• Elder Arthur Maxson - another great sticky sac outlet. I have nothing but great things to say about Yahenni, Undying Partisan and the things that make him great are mostly mirrored here.
• Cryptbreaker - I figure this guy + commander are already 2/3 of the zombies I need to draw a card so if I have any other creature who has died and come back as a token it means I can rather quickly recover a few cards drawn for cheap with this. There are also occasions due to multiple commanders where something dies and spawns like an army of zombies where this could be fun.
• Aradesh, the Founder - I slowly kept coming more and more around to this guy when I realized I could curve him into my commander and attack with a 4/4 double striker and draw a card (summoning sickness does stop it for a turn but without additional setup he can do it with the commander). When he dies and turns into a 2/2 it makes him even easier to hit the 4 power threshold for double strike as well. I am willing to give him a shot.
• Brought Back - I cut this early on when a lot of things weren't working out. I still think this deck can have issues in being sort of a tap out style of deck but I am willing to give it a second chance since it got cut really early on and I think it has a great play potential with some of the "clone my commander" plays.
• The Eternal Wanderer - I really wanted to consider a second planeswalker so I could consider Arena Rector more. I also think that the wanderer's wrath effect is very efficient and the +1 ability from them is very disruptive when used on opposing commanders. I was considering adding another sweeper effect to the deck and expanding my walker count makes me feel like I might be able to get away with Arena Rector as well.
• Arena Rector - I think both walkers I am running are reasonable tutors and if the wanderer's wrath isn't going to work it tends to be because they have only one creature at which point Liliana's sac 2 works well. I think I am going to try to get Liliana more of the two but having two good targets makes it feel like I can run this guy.
• Mirrorpool - more commander
• Ancient Tomb - Just moving to some ramp. I am not sure if its ideal for this deck given a lot of the colored mana pips but I want to give it a shot and see.
• Gemstone Caverns - More ramp options.
• Agadeem's Awakening - Its probably valid to test it out. I was holding off because my draw sucks so much but my things do die.
• Shattered Sanctum - just another good land.

[ChocoDude]

Wow!! Some big changes. I resonated with a few of your changes and couple not so much...in terms of cards that we are, or were, each running.

* Teysa, Orzhov Scion - I was planning to swap her our for either Colonel Autumn or Elder Arthur Maxson when they arrive in the mail. I'm leaning towards the Colonel and the Elder can go in my Isshin deck.
* Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - Will stay in my deck. He helped me with my last win and has generally been good for me.
* Bastion of Remembrance - Still testing. I like that it's sticky and gives me a chump blocker/sac fodder.
* Gift of Immortality - Was $$$ in my last win. I used it on Rata and makes him damn-near impossible to remove considering Rata has ward as well. Definitely staying in my list!
* Grave Pact - Yeah I haven't had much success with it. It's a lightning rod too. I really like your addition of The Eternal Wanderer as its ultimate is a Tragic Arrogance-lite and the other abilities are relevant here. I don't have a copy, but I may pick one up as a swap.
* Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - I've been proxying one, but haven't really got a decent enough devotion from it since the devotion is more split in my build. This slot will become filled by Desolate Mire.
* Cryptbreaker - This could be excellent card draw with all the token multipliers!

I'll be looking for future posts about these changes you made.

[ISBPathfinder]

I managed to pick up a copy of Delney, Streetwise Lookout and have temporarily slotted it in for Athreos, God of Passage. I am not really sold on either card if I am being honest. Athreos has been kind of mid passable at best in my experience so far. My thinking is that with all of the cloning of my commander it leaves a bunch of 2/2 zombie Ratadrabik's in play which he can interact with. Considering I have a copy already I might as well test it.

[ChocoDude]

Yeah I've been off and on and back again with Athreos. Totally understand. Delney has been absolutely money in my Ranar blink deck. It could work here but is definitely ineffective with anthems.

[kirkusjones]

Kambal, Stern Mayor seems decent here.

[ChocoDude]

Rules question: If I create a copy of an opponent's token with Kambal, Stern Mayor does that also trigger Kambal's drain effect? If so, then it's double-gravy against token decks. Wow!!

[yeti1069]

Rules question: If I create a copy of an opponent's token with Kambal, Stern Mayor does that also trigger Kambal's drain effect? If so, then it's double-gravy against token decks. Wow!!

Yeah.

[ChocoDude]

Sweet!! I just re-read it too. You can get ANY token from your opponents: treasures, clues, food, etc. Only triggers once per turn, so you may just get one drain/gain trigger, but you could get several against a Dockside. It's also a finisher with Rata and token doublers. Love it!!

[ChocoDude]

We Ride at Dawn looks to be excellent for Rata, .