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[kirkusjones]

Yay on Culling the Weak, I have fond memories of playing it in my garbage 60 card Mortal Combat deck years ago.

If we're talking rituals, I'm going to toss Cabal Ritual into the mix. Threshold shouldn't be all that hard to hit, which maybe could open the door for a Dark Petition as a later suggestion.

[RxPhantom]

I don't think 2-MV rocks should be discounted completely. This deck has a lot more to do than just cast the commander. Plus, the intended power level and budget for this deck would keep stuff like Chrome Mox and Mana Crypt out. I think there should be a few rocks. I don't want to cast a bunch of rituals just to get blown out by a well-timed counterspell or Teferi's Protection with too few mana sources on the board. But I guess we can mitigate this with wheels, so...

My pick for today is Magus of the Wheel.

Yay for Culling.

We have a bunch of sacrifice effects, do we have enough stuff to sacrifice?

I have the same concern. We have Bitterblossom, Dreadhorde Invasion, and some other stuff, but I was considering suggesting Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia in a future pick for this reason

Yay on Culling the Weak, I have fond memories of playing it in my garbage 60 card Mortal Combat deck years ago.

If we're talking rituals, I'm going to toss Cabal Ritual into the mix. Threshold shouldn't be all that hard to hit, which maybe could open the door for a Dark Petition as a later suggestion.

EDIT: Yay for Cabal Ritual.

[aliciaofthevast]

Ohmygosh I forgot to get a pick on last night. Well I know it's pricey but it's the best in class and doesn't have a true replacement, so I'm nominating Jeska's Will!

[3drinks]

Well Culling the Weak has been confirmed a couple times over now, as if we didn't expect that. I'll go ahead and yay cabal rit and jeska's will.

I don't like the way magus of the wheel plays, it's too much mana over too much time just to draw7 when we could, idk, cast my pick of the day that also procs our commander.

My pick is Skeletal Scrying|ody. Instant speed mind spring is pretty good.

Bedevil yay - 2 nay - 1
Cabal Ritual yay - 2 nay - 0
Magus of the Wheel yay - 0 nay - 1
Jeska's Will yay - 1 nay - 0
Skeletal Scrying yay - 0 nay - 0

[3drinks]

Just to get people thinking. Is this a Fires of Invention deck?

[pokken]

Yea for ritual in for rakdos signet

Rituals are also instants so can result in "berserk your creature kill someone" wins out of nowhere. I like it.

[Hawk]

Not sure about Fires of Invention - we have a lot of small spells we want to loop with buyback and a lot of rituals ; I don't know if we want to lean into medium spells we slam with only two triggers of Livaan per turn.

Agreeing with @RxPhantom - I think 2CMC rocks that EtB untapped and make mana right away are hot in this deck. They let us keep our land count low while guaranteeing we can slam T3 Livaan every game. They trigger Livaan and any other "whenever you cast a noncreature spell" cards we choose to run. They are mana-negative turn of (although mana neutral with Birgi!) but by entering untapped can still allow us to "chain" with Livaan. And unlike rituals, they give us some resilience in the face of removal or trickery and allow us to quickly rebuild. I'd argue we should run every single eligible rock in this sphere.

That being said, for my first actual suggestion I want to throw out Goblinslide. Cultist of the Absolute makes us hungry for tokens. We're already running the best effects in Rakdos to get tokens from our spellcasts but I think we could really use the added redundancy of Goblinslide, which has the advantage of triggering Livaan itself for a nice +3/+0 swing and being a little more resilient than Young Pyromancer.

[pokken]

Just to get people thinking. Is this a Fires of Invention deck?

Hell no. Instants! Past in flames!

[RxPhantom]

Yay for Skeletal Scrying
Yay for Jeska's Will
Yay for Goblinslide (I like this because it'll never eat removal; not a wincon but a workhorse)

I don't like Fires of Invention here. This commander wants us to cast more than two spells per turn, and Fires actively works against the ritual direction we're going in.

Once again, my daughter has seen the emoji panel and would like to do some typing.

From Scarlett:

[Venedrex]

Yay for the scrying and the will and the goblinslide.

I do agree with duducrash and Phantom that we need more fodder for our relentless saccing, and I think Rx's idea of Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia perfectly fits this deck. We can slam it on turn two and it's great, and I think it's still great later on. It also gets double triggers from Harmonic and allows us to always have something to sac to our background, which I think is very important. I suggest it! Also I think Deadly Dispute got lost in the shuffle of suggestions from yesterday, I'd be happy to suggest it again tomorrow but I think it got voted through.

EDIT: Yay for Bedevil!

[3drinks]

I didn't think Fires was sounding too right. Glad others saw that the same. I don't think I agree at all with the "we need to be playing every rock in the sphere in this deck" either, that's too broad of a scope to stake a claim to.

We're 2-2 for the addendum of replacing rakdos signet with dark rit.....

Jeska's Will has been confirmed. And Deadly Dispute was added after it's been super confirmed and missed over the last couple days.

Bedevil yay - 2 nay - 1
Cabal Ritual yay - 2 nay - 0
Magus of the Wheel yay - 0 nay - 1
Skeletal Scrying yay - 2 nay - 0
Goblinslide yay - 2 nay - 0
Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia yay - 0 nay - 0

We got a lot of cards waiting on votes, don't forget to yay/nay the current crop as you make your pick of the day! We're presently up to 44 nonlands. What land count are we going to shoot for?

[Hawk]

I Yay Cabal Ritual, Bedevil, and Skeletal Scrying as all being on the right track. Cabal leads to some huge blow-out turns quickly; Bedevil is just really efficient instant-speed removal + pump, and Skeletal Scrying is a nice scalable draw/pump engine that plays well with our stormy spell-slinger desires.

I also Yay Dark Ritual but I don't want to replace Signet; I want to run Ritual AND signet. (and I think we should be running Arcane Signet and Talisman of Indulgence as well and possibly also Mind Stone but I'll die on that hill later).

And I'll jump on the Nay train for Magus of the Wheel (too slow and clunky).

Currently undecided on Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia. Tokens are key for this deck, but he's weak, fragile, slow, and a considerable downgrade on all our current token-makers. His advantage is being budget-friendly and more 75% than Awesome Blossom. But I want to noodle more on if there's any other, better token makers and also on whether or not our current crop of token makers is "enough" for the deck.

[RxPhantom]

My reasoning for choosing Magus of the Wheel was simply budgetary. Magus is financially cheap (which it's namesake is not), and doable mana-wise. I was thinking of Reforge the Soul but was unsure our collective opinion on it if it isn't miracled. Also, Wheel of Misfortune makes my head hurt, and then the rest of the good wheels seem to be in blue.

A few procedural notes. Since this thread can get confusing and we're using a bunch of rituals, maybe we can be more specific instead of just saying stuff like "yay for ritual." Is Dark Ritual even on the table right now? Cabal Ritual is in, right? Would it be out of the question to save swaps until after we have 98 cards? Once a rough draft is fleshed out, maybe that'll be the time to hear arguments for swaps. Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't want to stifle anything either.

Yay to Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia (thanks @Venedrex!)
Nay to switching out Rakdos Signet for Dark Ritual (if that's what we're talking about), but I'd definitely give a yay to a simple Dark Rit nom in the future.

[3drinks]

A few confirmations. Looks like Skeletal Scrying, Cabal Ritual, and Bedevil got their confirmations.

Dark Ritual has not presently been suggested by anybody. The docket it was presented on was the motion to replace the clunkier, sorcery speed artifact mana with bursty, instant speed ritual mana. That could have been any ritual, but I needed something for an example.

Re: wheels. What if it's not a full-fledged draw7 we need, but instead a Big Score? You remain card neutral and effectively get a partial rebate on the cost sunk into them, and it's an instant. It also doesn't wheel others into interaction to stop us here.

Re: We need to have a conversation about where we want our land count to end up so we know where we want to cut this first project off at. (47 nonland presently)

Magus of the Wheel yay - 0 nay - 2
Goblinslide yay - 2 nay - 0
Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia yay - 1 nay - 1

[Crazy Monkey]

Yea on Cabal Ritual, Skeletal Scrying, Goblinslide, and Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia.

I don't see a downside to manarocks, as they still trigger commander; so my vote to yea Dark Ritual is as a supplement to Rakdos Signet, if that's an option.

I would rather see a noncreature wheel, so I will nay Magus of the Wheel and wait for a different wheel.

I think this is probably a 36 land deck based on the curve? I think it still needs more mana and draw to feed the spellslinging. I will nominate Cut of the Profits because it is really easy to pump a token to have 3 power and get 2X card drawn. It is a sorcery, but I think it supplements the smaller MV draw spells well.

I think that the 3-4 looting spells that effectively cost less by making treasures make a lot of sense here. They've been on my backburner to suggest for a while now.

[3drinks]

That cuts Magus out, and confirms Goblinslide to the list.

Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia yay - 2 nay - 0
Cut of the Profits yay - 0 nay - 0

[Hawk]

I'm thinking 35-36 lands is our target. Our curve is likely to be lower and we want to run a critical mass of rituals and rocks. At the same time, we have a few good mana sinks and want to maximize our mana use aggressively, and we want to hit land drops semi-reliably.

I think I'm gonna say Nay to Jadar after more time to think. In general we could argue as space gets tighter here that Lab Rats + Young Pyromancer + Ophiomancer + Sedgemoor Witch + Goblinslide + Dreadhorde Invasion + Kher Keep is "enough" repeatable token makers for the deck, especially since Harmonic Prodigy can double Witch, Pyromancer, and 'mancer. If we feel like we want another repeatable token maker, I have a few I'd suggest as alternatives to Jadar. I've already suggested one card today so I'll save those suggestions for later.

I don't want to hard Nay Cut of the Profits out of the gate, but I like this card significantly less than I liked Skeletal Scrying. One B more and sorcery speed are hefty costs for sure. The casualty is going to be fairly hard to cash in on for our deck as it stands now too, making this a glorified Damnable Pact that can't burn opponents out. I'm a lot more interested in smaller more efficient draw and bigger, nastier blowout X spells personally. But it is an interesting card so I'd love more discussion before I make a final vote.

[toctheyounger]

I'm not super sure on this but Haze of Rage is my pick for the day. The buyback means we can abuse it with our commander, each cast being +3 instead of +1, storm being the cherry on top. It has the potential to win games if we have the board presence, the question is whether we have the resources to get there with it.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Yea for haze of rage

My suggestion is Fatal Frenzy. Easy +(X+3) power and trample for that out of thin air kill.

Edit: I'm also gonna throw out Loyal Apprentice, as the background alone fulfills the commander requirement, allowing good token output to begin on T2.

[3drinks]

Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia yay - 2 nay - 1
Cut of the Profits yay - 0 nay - 0
Haze of Rage yay - 1 nay - 0
Fatal Frenzy yay - 0 nay - 0

[RxPhantom]

I'm thinking 35-36 lands is our target. Our curve is likely to be lower and we want to run a critical mass of rituals and rocks. At the same time, we have a few good mana sinks and want to maximize our mana use aggressively, and we want to hit land drops semi-reliably.

I agree on the land count, and I think we'll soon have to start thinking about stuff like Night's Whisper.

I think I'm gonna say Nay to Jadar after more time to think. In general we could argue as space gets tighter here that Lab Rats + Young Pyromancer + Ophiomancer + Sedgemoor Witch + Goblinslide + Dreadhorde Invasion + Kher Keep is "enough" repeatable token makers for the deck, especially since Harmonic Prodigy can double Witch, Pyromancer, and 'mancer. If we feel like we want another repeatable token maker, I have a few I'd suggest as alternatives to Jadar. I've already suggested one card today so I'll save those suggestions for later.

I was thinking w'ed have enough after Jadar, but I'd love to hear more ideas.

I don't want to hard Nay Cut of the Profits out of the gate, but I like this card significantly less than I liked Skeletal Scrying. One B more and sorcery speed are hefty costs for sure. The casualty is going to be fairly hard to cash in on for our deck as it stands now too, making this a glorified Damnable Pact that can't burn opponents out. I'm a lot more interested in smaller more efficient draw and bigger, nastier blowout X spells personally. But it is an interesting card so I'd love more discussion before I make a final vote.

I agree about Cut of the Profits and feel similarly about Haze of Rage and Fatal Frenzy. I kinda wanna hear more. Hey @TheAmericanSpirit, how do you feel about Blood Frenzy? It would be cool on our commander and everything, but I like the idea of helping an opponent take out another opponent at the expense of their beater. The only reason I thought of it is because they both have frenzy in the name.

[duducrash]

Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia yay - 2 nay - 1
Cut of the Profits yay - 0 nay - 1
Haze of Rage yay - 2 nay - 0
Fatal Frenzy yay - 1 nay - 0
Loyal Apprentice yay - 1 nay - 0



Id like to nominate Temur Battle Rage . I think first strike as a hole is very good for us since he gets power and no toughness, battlerage is extra great because it one shots fools

[aliciaofthevast]

I think we need to nay Jadar because I think we can do better than a two mana 1/1! I also think cut of the profits is...okay? Not great, not bad. I think we can do better probably. Nay on that. I am underwhelmed by haze of rage, and I'd think Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot both would do better. Nay.

I like the Fatal Frenzy kill! Berserk has always been good, and adding two mana to it doesn't change that I think. Yay.

I don't think loyal apprentice was suggested yet? I think American Spirit was merely making a recommendation to someone to make that pick.

[toctheyounger]

I like Loyal Apprentice. Very nice with a clamp if nothing else, abd that's the basement. It has scope to be very useful purely for producing hasty tokens.

I'll go in on Battle Rage too. It was one from my list.

[Crazy Monkey]

It sounds like several people wanted a more detailed thought process for the suggestion of Cut of the Profits. Basically, with the b rituals in the process of being added, I wanted to add an X cost spell that could spend a large amount of mana while also being useful at low mana costs. I started at Skeletal Scrying type effects, and didn't see a second X cost instant that drew cards. Accepting a sorcery put me towards Damnable Pact, as other noted. Then I remembered that there was a new version with casualty. I think that, when this is being cast, it would be after some sort of ritual, so we'll have had an opportunity to add some power before casting.

This lets the line of play be to add 1-2 power to one of our sacrificial tokens, then draw twice as many cards. With this intent, even a relatively low mana investment of X=2 gives +4 cards, which I think outperforms the dual use of Damnable Pact. That was the use case that I envisioned, and even without a ritual, it fits into the spellslinging line that was already the general gameplan.

EDIT:
On recent suggestions, I'll yea Haze of Rage as a buyback spell which can go infinite off of magecraft. I don't like sorcery speed only for this deck, but it pulls enough weight for me.
I'll yea Loyal Apprentice too. I think that this is close to the necessary threshold for token creation, so I'm not certain that I'll be yea-ing more token sources.
I'll yea Temur Battle Rage as a solid multiplication effect to make things lethal. The 'finisher' slots I was imagining were cards like this and/or Tainted Strike. Killing people with other people's attackers is always funny.
I'm not sold on Fatal Frenzy over something like Unleash Fury, but in this case the downside may be beneficial. I'm waffling on this one. Nevermind, that's "target you control", so you can't pump+remove on a goaded creature. That's a nay.