Have cheap +1 CA draw spells really "aged out" of the format?

[NZB2323]

Call of the Ring looks to be another card that is better than Phyrexian Arena, in addition to Black Market Connections and Necropotence.

[Dragoon]

Call of the Ring looks to be another card that is better than Phyrexian Arena, in addition to Black Market Connections and Necropotence.

You still need a creature in order to draw though.

[pokken]

Of the examples given, Phyrexian Arena is the one that I think is probably the most obsolete

I'm a pretty big arena hater, but I've been pondering it a lot lately. It's just so consistent and flies under the radar. People will just let you have it the entire game and not sweat it.

I wonder if the meta shifted to the point people played around cards like Ledger Shredder / Rhystic Study a bit more, like, maybe there's more room for the once per turn draw cards (Twilight Prophet etc) over slower games?

It's tough, because creatures get bigger and mass anthem/pump effects get faster every year too so 40 life is less and less

I've seen a few games recently where a dude just sat on a phyrexian arena and drew like 8 cards and people interacted and it was pretty good.

--

For me personally, I think hard about Phyrexian Arena if I am 1) playing slower, and 2) have lots of turn 2 ramp.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm sure there's some curve involving the usefulness of Phyrexian Arena over time versus the risk of it being a weak topdeck on turn 12. On the other hand, being in topdeck mode that late in the game with little to no board state is a losing position anyway. I, too, have been reconsidering Arena in slow, grindy decks.

[pokken]

I'm sure there's some curve involving the usefulness of Phyrexian Arena over time versus the risk of it being a weak topdeck on turn 12. On the other hand, being in topdeck mode that late in the game with little to no board state is a losing position anyway. I, too, have been reconsidering Arena in slow, grindy decks.

The thing that just keeps jumping out at me is that so many of the trendy CA pieces are just so bad if people aren't idiots. I try hard not to design my decks to bank on people being idiots.

(and to a lesser extent, so many powerful CA pieces just don't work if you don't hit 4-5 lands and a decent board state/hand state; things like Beast Whisperer and Momentous Fall and whatever)

--

I think your thoughts on the curve are probably a good area of focus; my rough shorthand is I don't think about Arena if my meta is closing games in 10 turns or fewer at a high rate? But that might be underthought.

[NZB2323]

Call of the Ring looks to be another card that is better than Phyrexian Arena, in addition to Black Market Connections and Necropotence.

You still need a creature in order to draw though.

Okay, but how hard is it to have at least 1 creature in this format?

[pokken]

Okay, but how hard is it to have at least 1 creature in this format?

To have 1 creature by turn 3 with a 2 drop being played, you need approximately 15 x 0-1 drop creatures (or to have ramped significantly). I would say that it is the *very* exceptional deck that would have this card out on turn 2 with a creature on turn 3 with any consistency.

[3drinks]

Okay, but how hard is it to have at least 1 creature in this format?

To have 1 creature by turn 3 with a 2 drop being played, you need approximately 15 x 0-1 drop creatures (or to have ramped significantly). I would say that it is the *very* exceptional deck that would have this card out on turn 2 with a creature on turn 3 with any consistency.

Yeah, like, rather than this new bait card, I'd rather just, say, resolve Ruin Raider and get my card the same turn. No fuss, no muss.

[pokken]

Yeah, like, rather than this new bait card, I'd rather just, say, resolve Ruin Raider and get my card the same turn. No fuss, no muss.

I rather like Keen Duelist and Dark Confidant still too but I'm weird. I apparently need to build a Vilis, Broker of Blood mono black deck at some point Someday when there's an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth reprint I guess.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, like, rather than this new bait card, I'd rather just, say, resolve Ruin Raider and get my card the same turn. No fuss, no muss.

I rather like Keen Duelist and Dark Confidant still too but I'm weird. I apparently need to build a Vilis, Broker of Blood mono black deck at some point Someday when there's an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth reprint I guess.

Give it 6 months, seems like a solid masters reprint.

[Sinis]

I'm a pretty big arena hater, but I've been pondering it a lot lately. It's just so consistent and flies under the radar. People will just let you have it the entire game and not sweat it.

I actually think this is what is going on and have been down on Phyrexian Arena until the last couple of years.

I have long been an advocate for playing definitely-weaker-than-optimal junk because it means your stuff is often not the thing that people want to remove with single-target interaction.

But, the definitely-weaker-than-optimal junk can still get the job done when the dust settles. Sure, you're going to have people who will want to destroy your Endless Horizons out of sheer hatred, but most of the time, people will assess a Smothering Tithe or Rhystic Study properly. That means that cards like Phyrexian Arena often get the value you want or more, and they do it quietly, unless it's swept up in a Farewell or something.

That said, it all comes with the caveat that if players are trying hard to win as soon as possible, the game might not last long enough for Phyrena to be worth it.

[pokken]

That said, it all comes with the caveat that if players are trying hard to win as soon as possible, the game might not last long enough for Phyrena to be worth it.

These days I think everyone will win fairly fast unimpeded, so it depends as much on if people are trying to stop people from winning or just tryin to do their own thing

[Mookie]

I recently had Monarch's ability to dodge Farewell come up in a game, so I'll give a shout to it and initiative as two additional ways to generate incremental card advantage. I wouldn't directly say Thorn of the Black Rose / Ravenloft Adventurer beats Phyrexian Arena, but they do seem to be worth consideration.

[toctheyounger]

I recently had Monarch's ability to dodge Farewell come up in a game, so I'll give a shout to it and initiative as two additional ways to generate incremental card advantage. I wouldn't directly say Thorn of the Black Rose / Ravenloft Adventurer beats Phyrexian Arena, but they do seem to be worth consideration.

I think initiative specifically can be a LOT better than arena. Monarch is very comparable (fwiw I think it's better from a game design and value perspective), but initiative being a scaling trigger on ETB for a lot of things can make it a way to generate pretty stupendous value. I've been trialling White Plume Adventurer in my Tayam deck, and it's been a monster. Even just the last initiative trigger is very strong, and being able to get the dungeon done in a turn or two is tremendously good.

That's it for me though with arena; sure, it's reliable value, but there's so little texture on the card for it to synergise with other things that it very rarely does anything more than what it says on the tin, and to me that's not really enough.

[RxPhantom]

I played Phyrexian Arena two days ago and it was great. *shrugs* Nobody cared enough to remove it. I drew a bunch of cards. The game went pretty long and I was glad to have it. I'm also not paying for Black Market Connections.

[Sinis]

That said, it all comes with the caveat that if players are trying hard to win as soon as possible, the game might not last long enough for Phyrena to be worth it.

These days I think everyone will win fairly fast unimpeded, so it depends as much on if people are trying to stop people from winning or just tryin to do their own thing

I mean, I can only speak about my local meta, but the shine of hard-edged decks seems to have worn off (even outside my own private group), and people are playing long games again. Phyrexian Arena has been decidedly not dead or even under par (my acid test is 3 cards; If I can get roughly a Read the Bones out of it, it's good enough).

Additionally, there's some extra synergy if you're playing Paradox Haze, Sphinx of the Second Sun (both of which are in my Safana/Dungeon Delver deck), or extra turns.

[PrimevalCommander]

When I'm looking for mid game draw, thinking about spells, and not permanents, I do almost always go for the spell that will net me cards. Cantrips have almost zero interest to me, which is probably a weakness in a couple of my decks. No-creature Talrand, Sky Summoner to be sure, but it has a self-assigned speed limit to the deck. However I want to keep casting spells and playing lands, so I want to be going up on cards, not holding parity.

Thinking about my Kalamax deck that plays only a few draw permanents, and several draw spells, even with the ability to copy nice cantrips like Growth Spiral, which is solid value when copied for free. It came out for cards like Electric Revelation, Chemister's Insight and Eureka Moment that REALLY boost my card output when copied. 2 games in a row I played Growth Spiral, once copied and once not, looking for lands and whiffed both times. I put in Electric Revelation and those problems went away. I do have to pitch a relevant card more often than not, but the sting subsides when I'm looking at 4 fresh cards and can hit my land drop that turn. I will pay a little extra mana for an extra card so I can be more active in the mid-late game. It hurts my ability to double-spell in the turn cycle on turn 4-5, but I don't really care when I can go up 3+ cards and start setting up my interaction by turn 6. It also prevents flame out where even my copied cantrips can hit double lands and leave me stranded waiting on the next draw. when I'm seeing 4 new cards, and have opportunity for flashback/jumpstart for 4 more, the chances of mana screw or mana flood are much lower. My cantrips come in the form of combat tricks that draw a card, which actively help me win the game by giving Kalamax evasion. Overall one of my favorite decks right now.

Talrand purposfully plays a Quantity over Quality draw package as a slow crescendo of card draw and drake tokens. Jank like Tidings, Flow of Ideas, Flow of Knowledge, Jace's Ingenuity, and Rain of Revelation. It's not meant to be an oppressive mono-blue deck, so playing overcosted draw spells keep my in check, slows my pace a lot, and still give me tons of gas to do things. Think Twice is the only dedicated cantrip I play that doesn't also counter something or bounce a creature. Plays some time magic, but really played as extra combat steps for blue for Drake beatdown.

[Avacyn Believer]

My own experience has been that I've noticed myself moving away from low CMC draw cards and yeah, my decks didn't work consistently. After watching a lot of EDHREC Podcast where they were talking about "unsexy" cards, I've changed my mind and updated my decks so include more of the 2 or 3 CMC draw spells (or just ensuring I have enough card advantage), and I've noticed a significant improvement in my games. Maybe not in the sense that I win more often, but that I have more to do each turn and see the deck work, which to me the main reason for playing.

There are some decks where the card advantage is achieved through specific synergy, but at the end of the day cards like Night's Whisper are simply reliable. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I am not happy to draw a card that gives me more cards.

[RxPhantom]

My own experience has been that I've noticed myself moving away from low CMC draw cards and yeah, my decks didn't work consistently. After watching a lot of EDHREC Podcast where they were talking about "unsexy" cards, I've changed my mind and updated my decks so include more of the 2 or 3 CMC draw spells (or just ensuring I have enough card advantage), and I've noticed a significant improvement in my games. Maybe not in the sense that I win more often, but that I have more to do each turn and see the deck work, which to me the main reason for playing.

There are some decks where the card advantage is achieved through specific synergy, but at the end of the day cards like Night's Whisper are simply reliable. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I am not happy to draw a card that gives me more cards.

I really want all my cards to be sexy though.

My mind always goes to permanents for card draw. I suppose that I may need to reevaluate.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think I've moved away from small draw just because I've realized that if I build my decks intentionally to achieve certain goals(e.g. quick combat victory) extra cards are basically only something to hold in my hands. It may be bleed over from playing Burn for so long, as the core of its philosophy is that it gains virtual card advantage by killing its opponents while they have a fuller grip, thus functionally "discarding" those cards from game relevance. In the same vein, I really only need enough cards to deploy quickly and sandbag a bit for the inevitable wipe. After that, I pretty comfortable being hell-bent adjacent for the rest of the game.

Yeah I said it. Drawing cards is overrated. Doing damage is where its at.

[pokken]

I think I've moved away from small draw just because I've realized that if I build my decks intentionally to achieve certain goals(e.g. quick combat victory) extra cards are basically only something to hold in my hands. It may be bleed over from playing Burn for so long, as the core of its philosophy is that it gains virtual card advantage by killing its opponents while they have a fuller grip, thus functionally "discarding" those cards from game relevance. In the same vein, I really only need enough cards to deploy quickly and sandbag a bit for the inevitable wipe. After that, I pretty comfortable being hell-bent adjacent for the rest of the game.

Yeah I said it. Drawing cards is overrated. Doing damage is where its at.

I've been thinking about it and this is really close to my philosophy with Breena; the other day I killed the board (on turn 7 or so) with 5 nonlands cards committed to the table (breena, serra ascendant, knight of the white orchid, cliffside rescuer, and nullpriest of oblivion) total, with total power in the 40 range (from a crapload of breena triggers). The breena triggers, basically every +4/+4 is at least a card of virtual damage by killing people a turn earlier (especially if some of them are on Breena, who voltrons someone).

(Akroma's Will is a helluva magic card; take 80 board and one person gets one-shot with 11/11 Breena)

I usually draw a decent number of cards with Breena (+1/+2 per turn) but not with almost anything else; so the entire deck runs on basically a Phyrexian Arena on average. I'm not tall-drawing 20 cards and having to sift through them. the average card quality is just high, and I can usually get at one total combat reversal card at least with a tutor.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think I've moved away from small draw just because I've realized that if I build my decks intentionally to achieve certain goals(e.g. quick combat victory) extra cards are basically only something to hold in my hands. It may be bleed over from playing Burn for so long, as the core of its philosophy is that it gains virtual card advantage by killing its opponents while they have a fuller grip, thus functionally "discarding" those cards from game relevance. In the same vein, I really only need enough cards to deploy quickly and sandbag a bit for the inevitable wipe. After that, I pretty comfortable being hell-bent adjacent for the rest of the game.

Yeah I said it. Drawing cards is overrated. Doing damage is where its at.

I've been thinking about it and this is really close to my philosophy with Breena; the other day I killed the board (on turn 7 or so) with 5 nonlands cards committed to the table (breena, serra ascendant, knight of the white orchid, cliffside rescuer, and nullpriest of oblivion) total, with total power in the 40 range (from a crapload of breena triggers). The breena triggers, basically every +4/+4 is at least a card of virtual damage by killing people a turn earlier (especially if some of them are on Breena, who voltrons someone).

(Akroma's Will is a helluva magic card; take 80 board and one person gets one-shot with 11/11 Breena)

I usually draw a decent number of cards with Breena (+1/+2 per turn) but not with almost anything else; so the entire deck runs on basically a Phyrexian Arena on average. I'm not tall-drawing 20 cards and having to sift through them. the average card quality is just high, and I can usually get at one total combat reversal card at least with a tutor.

I'm on the exact same page with my Raffine, Scheming Seer aggro deck. Once I deploy the goons and the sphinx, the damage escalates so fast that an extra turn, Akromas Will, or Skyhunter Strike Force(which is totally insane btw) is usually good night, next game for the table. I usually win with a card in hand, maybe two. The games where I constantly have a full grip are what worry me, as something has gone horribly wrong in all likelihood. Goons are useless in my hand, I need them in the red zone.

Edit: I also recently slotted in Breena for testing, speak of the devil. She's a big girl at 3 cmc, but she's done solid work so far. I can see why she's your aggressive flying menace of choice. 👍

[hyalopterouslemur]

Maybe the trend is going back toward Timmy. Commander still has a curve, and I personally still use +1 or +2 card draw spells.

At the end of the day, you still need card draw, removal, mana, and recursion, but a lot of new players think this format uniquely doesn't.

[Avacyn Believer]

Yeah I said it. Drawing cards is overrated. Doing damage is where its at.

While I don't disagree, I think that is more deck specific than something you can apply to everything. Especially if the commander doesn't have card advantage and/or easily combo stapled on them. With commanders like that, you can definitely have very few card draw or chin it off completely I guess. When I play a deck like Mayael the Anima which uses mostly "free-casting" effects, I don't feel like I need card draw, more or mana and top deck manipulation. But deck like Teysa Karlov, I am always happy to see the draw cards because it gives me options and fills the yard, and Teysa needs other cards to work, since she doesn't do anything on her own. And on the other side of the spectrum I got Sythis, Harvest's Hand which doesn't need any extra low CMC card draw at all.

I guess my point is that maybe low CMC draw cards are not the 'must have' for every deck, but I don't think they are lost in any deck.

Also I am speaking from perspective of someone who has to have a range of decks as I travel up and down the country. Just yesterday I played in a new LGS where the players were all fairly new and having something high power would not be fun when some of them played random uncommons from recent sets.

[ISBPathfinder]

Personally I think it comes down to what kind of wincons you are seeing as to how relevant they are. I still think they are fine but if you plan to see someone push the win button and end the game early in the turns it makes a lot less sense to play a grindy value attrition style of gameplay but if you plan to turn it into a slugfest and win beyond turn 10 its probably fine.

I still think they are fine personally but if you play the value play and someone wins on turn 5 your value play makes less sense. The speed of the wins seems like it speeds up every year and our bans never seem to address the problem players.