Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Sefir]

Impossible Man[/card]

Funnily enough, the fact that Mirage Mirror did NOT get a different name, was key in my Wormfang Manta+Mirage Mirror+ Sakashima the Impostor+ Gilded Drake combo. With Impossible Man in the place of Mirage Mirror, Manta+ Impossible Man+ Sakashima combo on their own just fine....

[tstorm823]

Impossible Man

I saw this, and I thought about it, but I didn't think about it enough to know. It doesn't do what I want from Sakashima the Impostor almost at all, since it doesn't naturally work with either etbs or upkeep triggers. But it does have some quite wacky options like Mirage Mirror, and being at instant speed means you effectively give anything flying to attack with, activating post blocks. It's quite a complex card to put in a jumpstart product.

---

Unrelated, @HYDROduk, did you see Brad Boimler, Eager Ensign in the spoilers yet? It probably interests you...

[HYDROduk]

Unrelated, @HYDROduk, did you see Brad Boimler, Eager Ensign in the spoilers yet? It probably interests you...

Oh hell yeah that is right up my alley for sure! I have been tempted by some of the counter increaser cards but a bit worried about it being a dead card when I don't have the right stuff to support it in hand or on board. More often than I like I am missing a way to put counters onto things in the early game which has made O'aka, Traveling Merchant a bit of a miss in the opening hand.

Also currently trying Mikaeus, the Lunarch and due to just how good Kwain, Itinerant Meddler has been for me I kinda want to put in Temple Bell as well, but the lifegain part of Kwain is what has made him such a powerhouse. I am still moping about The Destined White Mage, that card is so perfect.

[Flem1000]

I've got a few rules questions. For the Enduring Courage, Astral Dragon and Sakashima the Impostor combo, I understand that Sakashima reenters as just an enchantment, but why does it not become a creature when cloning Astral Dragon, as clones usually just clone what's printed on the card.

And is it possible to turbo flip Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun in a deck without Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison? With The Everflowing Well // The Myriad Pools being an upkeep trigger, the only other transform card I have is Sunbird Standard // Sunbird Effigy, not sure how it works with it exiling itself.

[tstorm823]

I've got a few rules questions. For the Enduring Courage, Astral Dragon and Sakashima the Impostor combo, I understand that Sakashima reenters as just an enchantment, but why does it not become a creature when cloning Astral Dragon, as clones usually just clone what's printed on the card.

The answer is layers. Continuous effects are applied in layers, and copy effects are layer 1, they get applied first. Clones do copy what is on the card plus any copy effects, and not any other continuous effects, so they ignore other things like type changes to what is being cloned. But that's not the situation here, we aren't trying to copy something with a type change. When Sakashima re-enters, regardless of what it copies, it has 2 continuous effects applied: it's own copy effect is one, and the last clause of the triggered ability that brought it back that makes it an enchantment. With multiple continuous effects, you apply them in the order of layers. Copy effects are layer 1, so Sakashima being a clone of Astral Dragon is the first change considered, and then type-changing effects are layer 4, making the now Astral Dragon Sakashima an enchantment.

And is it possible to turbo flip Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun in a deck without Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison? With The Everflowing Well // The Myriad Pools being an upkeep trigger, the only other transform card I have is Sunbird Standard // Sunbird Effigy, not sure how it works with it exiling itself.

Yup, it works with Sunbird just fine. The exile doesn't do anything weird, it just knows when the craft resolves to return transformed, which will be the backside of the card itself.

Also, you can flip with The Everflowing Well if you have a second upkeep later in the turn ...

[HYDROduk]

@tstorm823 I am doing some fiddling with my Mathas deck and I'm getting very tempted to give Queen Marchesa a spin at the helm. Do you have your list posted up anywhere that I could have a look through?

[Hhatrick]

@HYDROduk Had so much fun with the counters build! I won recently with All Will be One, Lyla, Proft's Eiedic and Archangel of Thune, and with 1 trigger from Kwain doing so much counter damage.

What enabled is Zedruu out with Shadow of the Second Sun for double the triggers.

Question though—Can an Astral Dragon produce two more Shadow of the Second Suns for three additional beginning phases? Do the extra phases stack?

[tstorm823]

Question though—Can an Astral Dragon produce two more Shadow of the Second Suns for three additional beginning phases? Do the extra phases stack?

In general, extra phases do stack. If you have 3 copies of Shadow of the Second Sun, you'll get 3 additional beginning phases after your second main.

In specific, you cannot do this with Astral Dragon, because Astral Dragon's copies would be creatures, and creatures cannot attach to things, so they would immediately unattach from you the first chance state based actions get. And then because they are still auras but aren't attached to anything, they immediately go to the graveyard, where as tokens they cease to exist.

[Sefir]

Question though—Can an Astral Dragon produce two more Shadow of the Second Suns for three additional beginning phases? Do the extra phases stack?

In general, extra phases do stack. If you have 3 copies of Shadow of the Second Sun, you'll get 3 additional beginning phases after your second main.

In specific, you cannot do this with Astral Dragon, because Astral Dragon's copies would be creatures, and creatures cannot attach to things, so they would immediately unattach from you the first chance state based actions get. And then because they are still auras but aren't attached to anything, they immediately go to the graveyard, where as tokens they cease to exist.

To push this even further, this is one of the main advantages of Sphinx of the Second Sun, if you have to choose between the two (I personally run both). Creatures are far easier to copy. Ofc, Shadow has its pros too (cheaper, can be gifted)

[Hhatrick]

Got this! Misplayed here..but I had a stationed Adagia, Windswept Bastion [/card] land that I would've used to substitute that cloning.

A simple donation (in this case, a Mountain to a red player + some Forbidden Orchard spirits) can really turn the tide/favor for him to attack the other opponent!

Thanks guys, I really enjoy the card draw and non deterministic plays of Zedruu no 3 card combo 😁

[Hhatrick]

Also, I'm realizing that the Station mechanic triggers All Will Be One [/card]. So after card draws, pumps and life gain, we can station these big creatures for more damage without even attacking 😁

[Hhatrick]

Got another win with Vexing Puzzlebox + Mirrormade + Astral Dragon for 4 puzzle boxes + All Will Be One 😂. Each d20 roll result hits 4x damage to one target!

@HYDROduk We need redundancies for this All Will be One card to avoid the glass cannon, a friend recommended Casey Jones, Back Alley Brute 😁

[HYDROduk]

@HYDROduk Had so much fun with the counters build! I won recently with All Will be One, Lyla, Proft's Eiedic and Archangel of Thune, and with 1 trigger from Kwain doing so much counter damage.

Yoooo, Glad you are enjoying it! I have been having a ball with the deck lately, and I think its in a decent spot right now.

I had a great game where Ion Storm, The Eternity Elevator, Swans of Bryn Argoll and Shang-Chi and the Ten Rings put in hella work. I keep finding new synergy and tricks everytime I play it.

A simple donation (in this case, a Mountain to a red player + some Forbidden Orchard spirits) can really turn the tide/favor for him to attack the other opponent!

I might be wrong here but I think the spirits from Forbidden Orchard don't count as creatures you own because it read as "target opponent creates"? But I may be wrong here.

Also, I'm realizing that the Station mechanic triggers All Will Be One [/card]. So after card draws, pumps and life gain, we can station these big creatures for more damage without even attacking 😁

Station is awesome in this deck, I am super hyped for the star trek set and im hoping we get some good spaceships. I still think Synthesizer Labship could be good, but I didn't have the best run with it in the deck.

@HYDROduk We need redundancies for this All Will be One card to avoid the glass cannon, a friend recommended Casey Jones, Back Alley Brute 😁

Just gotta be careful with Casey Jones, Back Alley Brute because with him, a lifelink granter and anything that puts counters on when you gain life he goes infinite. So in the current version of the deck with Archangel of Thune and Jeskai Charm he can't really coexist.

[Hhatrick]

Yes, spirits from Forbidden Orchard do not count for Zedruu triggers, just a bit of mind games to influence not being attacked / targeted. Worked like a charm for me 😂

Good catch on the Casey Jones bit, it does form a 3 card combo. Maybe I'll take out Jeskai Charm 🤔

[Hhatrick]

@HYDROduk thinking about this, wont we need a 4th card to start the infinite?

[HYDROduk]

@HYDROduk thinking about this, wont we need a 4th card to start the infinite?

Technically yes, but attacking with Casey will put a counter on something so I think its fair to say that it is only 3 cards. I had the same issue with Heliod, Sun-Crowned and The Destined White Mage where they create a 3 card combo when animating All Will Be One with Will of the Temur or Astral Dragon. Techically I still have to put a counter on something or deal damage with All Will Be One but I am still not 100% sure if that is crossing the line of <4 card combos.

Time to take it to the Council of the GOAT.

@tstorm823 @Sefir What do you guys think?

[tstorm823]

@HYDROduk thinking about this, wont we need a 4th card to start the infinite?

Technically yes, but attacking with Casey will put a counter on something so I think its fair to say that it is only 3 cards. I had the same issue with Heliod, Sun-Crowned and The Destined White Mage where they create a 3 card combo when animating All Will Be One with Will of the Temur or Astral Dragon. Techically I still have to put a counter on something or deal damage with All Will Be One but I am still not 100% sure if that is crossing the line of <4 card combos.

Time to take it to the Council of the GOAT.

@tstorm823 @Sefir What do you guys think?

Definitely counts as 3.

[Sefir]

Time to take it to the Council of the GOAT.

@tstorm823 @Sefir What do you guys think?

Definitely counts as 3.

Agree, 100% a 3-card combo.



In other news, regarding my list, I feel I need to remove Rootha, Mercurial Artist from my list. She is very good at what she does, but she can be a bit...boring. The problem is, with my current list, and with the restriction of "every nonland card should be a part of a 4-card combo", the only combo my Relic of Legends has, is with her (Relic+Rootha+Jeska's Will+flash enabler).Thus, if I want to remove Rootha, I should put something with which Relic can have a combo with. Relic used to have a combo with Ioreth of the Healing House+a legendary copy of Ioreth+Magda, Brazen Outlaw, but without Sakashima the Impostor in my list any more, I dont have any effects that can clone (and keep) copies as legendaries. And I cannot put Sakashima back, because of its 3-card combo with Wormfang Manta and Assimilation Aegis. An easy solution coould be just any other "Sakashima" effect that doesnt have selfbounce, like Sakashima of a Thousand Faces, Chameleon, Master of Disguise or whatever. I am not sure if i want to add yet another clone effect in the mix. Perhaps if I find Sakashima of a Thousand Faces' "Legend rule does not apply" more relevant in my list with further combos/interactions, I can be convinced otherwise, but ftm, I am willing to try other kinds of interactions that combo with my Relic. Open to suggestions.

Another card I am consider taking out, is Season of Weaving. The card is always good, its floor is "draw 5" which is a huge floor. Theoretically, I have combos with its last mode, in practice I never used it. Its use is almost ALWAYS to wait until I get a Coveted Jewel in play and then copy the Jewel twice to be mana newtral and with 7 extra cards in hand, doing its best "Time Spiral" impression possible (lets not discuss what happens if I also happen to have a Gandalf the White in play). It is a bit one-dimensional though, something very ironic for a 3-mode card, and it still is a 6cmc card. For the moment it stays, it is almost always a game-winning card. However, I am not against replacing it with something that hits from a different angle.

I realized that I need a creature with actual +1/+1 counters on it in order to abuse Vivi Ornitier+Assimilation Aegis. Those 2+a creature that can get 5 +1/+1 counters+a mana sink creature, is a 4-card combo. Walking Ballista is the most obvious and....boring candidate, it can do both. Wan Shi Tong, Librarian is another consideration, since it also combos with MOM+Nykthos+Dour Port-Mage.

EDIT: I cannot believe that, after all these years, and after all that experience with my list, I continue to find out new combos out of nowhere. A few nights ago, I realized a loop with Lore Drakkis on a Valley Floodcaller, with Dour Port Mage in play, looping a Turnabout (With Turnabout, Floodcaller untaps Dour Port-Mage, for him to bounce the Lore Drakkis/Floodcaller, replay it and take back Turnabout, for basically infinite mana and draw from Dour Port Mage)

[Sefir]

Had a fun Zedruu game yesterday and my proxied Wan Shi Tong, Librarian convìnced me to add him permanently. First of all, the Whtz, the Bibliophile lifelink deck tried to Field of Ruin my.... Geier Reach Sanitarium (He was planning to Invincible Hymn+ Marina Vendrell's Grimoire to draw his deck, but died from an army of spirits in that turn cycle...) and I did let it resolve, but flashed the bird for X=0 for immediate value. Then, when the Bruce Banner // The Incredible Hulk opponent tried to kill me (there was a Telepathy in play, he knew I had a bunch of Stifle and redirection effects, but nothing relevant), I bounced back Wan Shi Tong with Dour Port-Mage, replayed him for X=6 and, that was the moment I realized that this is a triggered ability, thus it gets copied by both Gandalf the White and Delney, Streetwise Lookout (I had both in play), drew a gazzilion cards, became a 19/19 and actually killed the freakin 15/15 Hulk with ease (and killed the opponent when my turn came).
And that left me against Brago, King Eternal and his spirit tokens army. We both had drawn like crazy thus far. Probably one of the hardest 1v1 situations I had, because the opponent was good too. I Stifled his Moonshaker Cavalry THREE TIMES! He countered my Vanish Into Memory to my own Wan Shi Tong and furthermore stopped 2 combos of mine with spot removals (even through my own interactions). In the end, he cast a Coat of Arms, I survived his +12/+12 army through my Angel's Grace and retaliated with an Elemental Mastery on my bird (also a spirit, 31/31 at that point), for 31 hasty 31/31 elementals for the win.

[HYDROduk]

Damn dude, some slick play!!

I have had my eyes on Wan Shi Tong, Librarian for a while as well. Seems really good with things like Hithlain Rope or Oath of Lieges but performs well without it. I play with a small pod of friends and don't really play with randoms very often and my group doesn't play many tutors but we do proxy fetch lands. But I am going to get a webcam setup and try and run some games on spelltable or the like.

I have also been thinking of switching out Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for Geier Reach Sanitarium for another way to get things ino the graveyard for Agatha's Soul Cauldron.

I also had super fun game the other day where I had the dream setup with Archangel of Thune on the battlefield and Kwain, Itinerant Meddler exiled with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. I also had Valley Floodcaller and Swans of Bryn Argoll down early along with The Eternity Elevator to get it stationed up super fast by dropping Moxite Refinery and a few other noncreature spells to untap and station them a few times a turn. I dropped a Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and flipped him before passing my turn and tried to play Darksteel Reactor on the person before me's end step but it got exiled before I could untap to move the counters with Moxite Refinery. Dropped All Will Be One on my turn and then pushed through multiple pieces of removal with Astral Dragon and Mirrormade to make copies of AWBO and then machine gun down the table by tapping all my creatures with the Kwain's activated ability that was exiled with Soul Cauldron.

Was a super proud moment for me to see all of the pieces coming together!

A few cards that have been performing above my expecations are Iroh, Tea Master and Ion Storm. Iroh is just so nice to give things away for free while also give you a free gift in the food token he makes on entry. No ones has cracked the food since I have had him in the deck. I have had a few instances where I can make a deal with someone to give them an ally token and they wont block with it or kill it until my next turn. Ion Storm has been really nice as a removal piece but also goes crazy with The Eternity Elevator or Swans of Bryn Argoll. Not to mention if I have Swans of Bryn Argoll, Lyla, Holographic Assistant and Crystalline Crawler down I can just rapid fire all of my counters off to remove most of the board or finish someone off.

[tstorm823]

I've had some more opportunities to play lately, in a variety of places: two different local stores, once with a group that a friend from my old scout troop plays with, and once with a friend's cousin's playgroup, I've found some weird ways to get my magic fix. Thinking back over those games, I won 7 of 10 games with Zedruu. Of the three losses, one was the only 1-on-1 game, and the other two had 2 of 4 players be so irrelevant that it effectively reduced to a 1-on-1. Zedruu won in every single 4-player game where all 4 people were engaged. So, two conclusions from this:

• Before I play with another group like this, it's time for updates, and I'll be intentionally powering down in the update.
• The next iteration needs more Howling Mines, multiple players not capable of maintaining relevancy is bad circumstances for my Zedruu, group draw fixes some of that.

Don't know exactly how I'm changing yet, but in the meantime, I have some highlights, everyone loves highlights.

One game ended on turn 6, which is a pretty aggressive win, but required some beautiful micro-managing of resources. Turn 2 signet, turn 3 The Everflowing Well and Codex Shredder both milling myself. Turn 4 Venser, the Sojourner to flicker the Well, mill with shredder. Turn 5, Sunbird Standard, flicker and mill again, I discard Cadric, Soul Kindler to hand size so that I'll have all 3 colors to exile (I had milled blue and white cards), leaving mana for Venser, Shaper Savant to defend planeswalker Venser, blocking and dying and becoming my 8th permanent in graveyard for the Well. On my 6th turn, flip the Well on upkeep, mill myself with the shredder hitting Detention Sphere, flip the Bird for 5 exiling Detention Sphere and Possibility Storm (I get to leave Cadric in graveyard), tap the flipped Well and the bird to cast Jeskai Ascendancy turning a land into a Jeskai Ascendancy. Cast Pentad Prism with my final 2 mana to get back to 8 mana. Leave picks up Shredder, the signet, and the Prism, playing each of those in turn pumps me up to 25 mana available, meanwhile I loot into Mirrormade. I Mirrormade on Codex Shedder, sacrifice both to return Venser and Cadric to my hand, loop Vensers with Cadric copying him and using the two bounce triggers on Venser and Pentad Prism and make infinite Vensers with haste and then make them unblockable just for fun. It was pretty close to a magical christmasland game.

Another game I had Leyline of Anticipation and played it much slower with my mana open for turns on end. On one turn, a board wipe was attempted, and I got to reply with Chance for Glory and then eat the death turn with Magosi, the Waterveil. I sat behind my indestructible creatures (Zedruu and another Sunbird Effigy for a few more turns while flipping over Azor's Gateway with help from Unbender Tine. With an extra turn available, Firestorm and Snap in hand, and a Sanctum of the Sun, on the turn end before mine I cast Barren Glory, intending to be able to tap Sanctum 3 times for mana next turn, activate Magosi, discard my hand and donate the rest of my permanents and then move to the extra turn for the win... but the one piece of interaction that game I couldn't answer was Counterspell on my Barren Glory. So instead, I had to play Nin, the Pain Artist, Role Reversal to steal someone's Lightning Greaves, draw 50 cards to find Jeskai Ascendancy, copy Unbender Tine 5 times with a variety of spells, Turnabout my artifacts, generate 350 mana, and Nin all 3 opponents to death. They could have just let me Barren Glory...

[Sefir]

[*]Before I play with another group like this, it's time for updates, and I'll be intentionally powering down in the update.
[*]The next iteration needs more Howling Mines, multiple players not capable of maintaining relevancy is bad circumstances for my Zedruu, group draw fixes some of that.

I feel I have the same problem (?). I sincerely do not remember when was the last time I lost with Zedruu and I play with it regularly. It might be over a year or something. Ofc I am playing in B3 tables. Mostly on Spelltable, which ensures randomness. I feel this is a result from:

a) The deck can interact to literally anything, no matter in how junky a way that is ensures our gameplan can go mostly the way we want.
b) The deck's enormous draw power if left unattended for a couple of turns means that, even if we run a number of dead cards (either too expensive or they need very specific other pieces to actually be useful, like my Wormfang Manta), means that we can just literally ignore them.
c) Not only the deck maintains usually a low-profile to the uninitiate, but also offers a helpful hand with all the "grouphuggy" options each of us run.
d) Even if someone KNOWS what is going on, they usually have much more immediate threats to take care of in the table.
e) Everything can be a combo piece. Sure some pieces have more combos than others, but death can come potentially from everywhere, nothing is really necessary to our gameplan.
f) Lets be honest, the synergies are insane. Even something of a low-threat, like... Humble Defector, can draw us....6 cards with a couple untappers. And this is at very base level. And at some point, this explodes. Be it with a MoM, an Eternity Elevator, a Valley Floodcaller or whatever.
g) I did mention that I play on Spelltable and this is a HUGE advantage. People in webcam only see the boards in front of them. They cannot assess threat based on the cards in hand, at least at first glance. You have to ask people "Ehm, how many cards you have in hand?" to actually understand what is fully going on.


I dont think I can change much tbh. The deck is certainly not powerful enough to go for a B4 tier. I realize that I have put some powerful singleton pieces in there like Vivi or even Wan Shi Tong, and engulfed them in the combo blankets. While my list retains its "goofiness", I have abandoned the "big chaos pieces" for a long time for a more "Combo/Control" playstyle and, since I do play mostly on webcam, I am not in a hurry to include cards like Eye of the Storm back soon. And in all honesty, on their own, my 3 GC of choice (Lion's Eye Diamond, Jeska's Will, Teferi's Protection) rarely make the difference in the game in general.

Going full circle, I do believe that if someone is experienced with their Zedruu list and know when to mulligan and what their gameplan will be by their starting 7 and the first draws, then they have more than 60% chance of winning the game.

[tstorm823]

I feel I have the same problem (?). I sincerely do not remember when was the last time I lost with Zedruu and I play with it regularly.

Definitely not a problem, per se, I'm certainly allowed to just win a lot. But the situation is that there are just so many new players. The second store I was at, that I would like to return to at least a few times, had 12 people there that night, and I think only 3 of us had more than 2 years experience, some were like 6 months in. I have an advantage in that environment, independent of the deck, experience is a huge advantage. I would like for my presence to help them down the path to the things that I love about this game, but just demolishing people with cards they've never seen in ways they don't yet understand is not going to instill a love for the strategy, it has to at least be a struggle.

[Sefir]

Definitely not a problem, per se, I'm certainly allowed to just win a lot. But the situation is that there are just so many new players. The second store I was at, that I would like to return to at least a few times, had 12 people there that night, and I think only 3 of us had more than 2 years experience, some were like 6 months in. I have an advantage in that environment, independent of the deck, experience is a huge advantage. I would like for my presence to help them down the path to the things that I love about this game, but just demolishing people with cards they've never seen in ways they don't yet understand is not going to instill a love for the strategy, it has to at least be a struggle.

It is certainly not the best deck to introduce to a beginner, that's for sure lol.

Have you tried playing your current list in B3 tables though? I feel your, more chaotic/grouphuggy version than mine, might find more challenge (and perhaps gameplay variance) there, while still able to hold its ground, even without Game Changers.

Also, at some point, we should play a game against each other. Zedruu vs Zedruu (a full table of Zedruus is a wet dream, but highly unrealistic. Unless we schedule it alltogether from this thread. Hmmmm.....)
It will be VERY interesting to play agaisnt people who know all the nooks and crannies of your deck ALMOST as good as you.

[tstorm823]

It is certainly not the best deck to introduce to a beginner, that's for sure lol.

Have you tried playing your current list in B3 tables though? I feel your, more chaotic/grouphuggy version than mine, might find more challenge (and perhaps gameplay variance) there, while still able to hold its ground, even without Game Changers.

Also, at some point, we should play a game against each other. Zedruu vs Zedruu (a full table of Zedruus is a wet dream, but highly unrealistic. Unless we schedule it alltogether from this thread. Hmmmm.....)
It will be VERY interesting to play agaisnt people who know all the nooks and crannies of your deck ALMOST as good as you.

I have never had a bracket discussion before a game. Discussions of what decks count as which bracket, sure, but I have not played online nor at a large event in the bracket era, so the table is always whoever is there playing what they want to the old fashioned way.

If we were to schedule "oops all Zedruu", it would have to be a very long timeslot, cause if that game doesn't naturally go for hours, we'll need to run it back immediately.