Winota - Norin in Disguise

[ISBPathfinder]

Alms Collector? More expensive hate-cat, but he does draw cards.

Treasure Nabber probably needs to drag his butt in here.

I also kind of like the idea of Planar Chaos - more up my friends' ally than mine, but it just wrecks people if they go to wrath and fail the flip. Meanwhile if we've got any board we can add to it with Winota, Joiner of Forces.

A double post? How rude!

Rummaging through my box for a couple last minute includes and came across one that I think is legitimately great:

Impulsive Pilferer - giving us three hasty Winota, Joiner of Forces triggers on his second go around is awesome - and if people don't want to enable that, he has semi-evasion on his front half.

Alms Collector - I have always been sort of displeased at how questionable it doing anything is. It is designed to hit cards that draw two or more cards in one effect like Wheels, Sea Gate Restoration, and Rishkar's Expertise. I don't like how it doesn't stop a lot of synergy based draw though like Tatyova, Benthic Druid, Fact or Fiction, Rhystic Study, or Necropotence though. I feel like its probably a meta call at best because there are just so many things it doesn't interact with especially if you are repeatedly drawing one card or putting cards to hand. I have had very poor results with it in my own meta but that isn't to say it couldn't be appropriate depending on the meta. I just hate how it is very random if it works or not based on what sort of draw they are using. I do like hatebears but my opinion of Alms Collector has always been that its a total crapshoot if he does anything.

Treasure Nabber - Maybe, I haven't really been personally impressed with the card and he does lack evasion. I don't think its wrong but I do think that the meta and the opponents you face on the regular will dictate how useful or not he is based on their deck design. I don't love relying on opponents to do something for a card to be good. There are cards that regardless of opponents choices they are still good but I haven't ever been that keen on Treasure Nabber personally. If the card works for someone I think its fine, I just haven't been impressed myself.

Impulsive Pilferer - It could work. I feel like its a little bit harder card to analyze without playing with it. Its a one drop which tend to get worse as the game goes on but the encore is decent. I still think that its a card that drawn after turn three is kind of weak but that is often the case with one drops. I would probably need to test it to say much more but I think that paying the encore and casting winota in the same turn is still going to be hard and anytime I cast winota tends to be a situation that I am going to be fairly happy if I make it to combat and circle back to the next turn with a board still. I think we usually want things we can cast before winota to make use of rather than pre casting her and hoping she stays in play. I am just pointing out that the encore can be a little like a swarm of hastey tokens in that it isn't normally something that has a lot of synergy with what we are doing. I would usually go for quantity, evasion, or quality over a haste push with this deck concept due to the setup costs. I can't help but to compare it against Hordeling Outburst even though its different and there is a payoff that makes treasure tokens the fact that it costs four and they are used up in the same turn rather than being able to pre play the encore. Its not accurate from the standpoint that its still a one drop that can be played out beforehand but I think a lot of the incentive is in the encore and I am not sure how well that plays to our setup needs.

[ISBPathfinder]

So...... something I have been thinking about for a while now. I was curious as to if I couldn't get equipment into the list somehow. A big problem I have had with equipment and the idea of Stoneforge Mystic is when to set up and do most of the equipment. Lots of equipment that I want to run goes live somewhere in the four to five mana range. At four mana there is some ramp but that also interferes with playing Winota on curve as well as the fact that I added a bunch of things that care about having less lands. Swords and such at five are fine I just don't have a lot that I am considering for this deck.

But then it occurred to me, I should be looking at the living weapons specifically Batterskull and Kaldra Compleat. I could play stoneforge on two and cheat them in on turn three leaving me with two non humans for an attack on turn four.

Godo, Bandit Warlord is also a human and he gets to put one of these living weapons directly into play. Godo also allows Batterskull to attack twice assuming the token / card its equipped to doesn't die in the attack.

So.... assuming I look into running:

• Stoneforge Mystic
• Godo, Bandit Warlord
• Batterskull
• Kaldra Compleat

That leaves me with two tutors for equip and three equipment. I feel like if I want to expand that equipment slot beyond that Sword of Hearth and Home, Mask of Memory, and Sword of Light and Shadow are currently the ones I would be considering but I am not sure on any of those I mentioned for various reasons. I think Mask of Memory is probably the one I am closest to considering. If we weren't running a less lands concept I think the ramp and flicker on hearth and home is good too especially given that I am potentially adding two more ETB value creatures with the equipment.

I have no idea how I am going to make space for four cards but this was going through my head and I felt like it might be worth posting my thoughts. I thought I would see what people think of possibly pushing more equipment but more specifically the living weapons and the tutors for them into the deck.

[Chromaticus]

That's so interesting that you were considering that line - I was thinking king about germ tokens for this deck today too - though I was more in the Flayer Husk and Mortarpod cheapo ones camp.

Godo being a human hit is actually a lot of value if you run the big boy germs

[ISBPathfinder]

That's so interesting that you were considering that line - I was thinking king about germ tokens for this deck today too - though I was more in the Flayer Husk and Mortarpod cheapo ones camp.

Godo being a human hit is actually a lot of value if you run the big boy germs

I thought about the cheap living weapons too but I have been having so much of an issue with card advantage and going long that I think it would be a problem. Some of this deck's problem is that its very visible when its doing anything and it takes quite a bit of setup for a number of the things we want to do. Lots of the soul warden plays are dependant on Norin or a bunch of winota triggers and a payoff for gaining life. That takes three sort of specific cards to do that and even when we achieve that it takes some amount of time for it to add up. Sweepers and spot removal have been a problem for me so far and I worry about some of the plays that feel like they fall off the later we draw them.

I think..... that I am likely to consider pulling some of the draw on lifegain effects for this. They just take too much setup to execute and they are really rough when you don't have the full setup. I think we can't quite consistently enough execute them to make me happy with them even though I have drawn and used the Well of Lost Dreams already to decent results. Dawn of Hope I haven't seen but I think it falls into the same camp. I also keep going back and forth on my thoughts of Crested Sunmare but I haven't actually seen the card yet to verify much of anything.

[Chromaticus]

Welcoming Vampire could not be more perfect for this deck if we had a Wizards employee designing for us.

3 drop non-human with evasion, and will draw for every Norin the Wary trigger. This is probably tutor target #1 for the recruiters after secret commander Norin has been found. Drawing 4 cards per cycle, yes please!

[ISBPathfinder]

Welcoming Vampire could not be more perfect for this deck if we had a Wizards employee designing for us.

3 drop non-human with evasion, and will draw for every Norin the Wary trigger. This is probably tutor target #1 for the recruiters after secret commander Norin has been found. Drawing 4 cards per cycle, yes please!

Technically it would have been nice if it had been a 2/2 for the sake of Recruiter of the Guard but yes, it seems rather heavily pushed already when you look at it in the light of comparing it against Mentor of the Meek. Given how good of a Norin payoff I guess I would have preferred it be a human so I could tutor it more consistantly but we also need more good three or less mana non humans so I am more than pleased to see it.

Voice of the Blessed is also a bit interesting to me. The WW cost is a little rough but it feels like a slightly more power appropriate Ajani's Pridemate for this format. The indestructible option is amusing but I think even the 6/6 flying vigilant option with four counters seems nice. It also fits the whole low cost creatures that aren't human. I have been going back and forth a bit on some of the lifegain payoff concepts lately but I think being on a cheap non human is also appealing. Its no slam dunk like the vamp but its interesting enough to be on my radar.

[duducrash]

@ISBPathfinder I first saw you online on the old forums modern allies thread. Allies were (still are!) my pet deck. Then I found you as the only source to help my first commander deck with Jori En, Ruin Diver . It was a cool connection.

Now I found this cool deck with. the backstory and I got to point out I also really liked norin sisters. I played this version with blood moon and Impact Tremors It was a really cool deck I really enjoyed. awesome how much the decks I loved crossed paths with your decks.

[ISBPathfinder]

@ISBPathfinder I first saw you online on the old forums modern allies thread. Allies were (still are!) my pet deck. Then I found you as the only source to help my first commander deck with Jori En, Ruin Diver . It was a cool connection.

Now I found this cool deck with. the backstory and I got to point out I also really liked norin sisters. I played this version with blood moon and Impact Tremors It was a really cool deck I really enjoyed. awesome how much the decks I loved crossed paths with your decks.

nice. Yea this concept has been really fun so far. The hard part is that when its doing its thing its SUUUUPER flashy and everyone is like OMG THROW WRENCHES AT THAT GUY. So..... I often feel like I get interacted with a bunch to watch someone else go off infinitely because their somewhat combo finisher has few moving parts and assembles quicker than what I am doing. The deck is hella fun though but given the complexity of assembling I have almost zero answers in my deck because well... hell its kind of difficult to get set up lol.

I ended up playing a game this weekend. It was going really well and I forced my opponents to sweep the board on me then started rebuilding into an Archangel of Thune + Norin the Wary + Soul Sister setup that went kinda crazy. I got up to around 100hp which was great when someone dropped an Aetherflux Reservoir and couldn't kill me. I was doing well and spinning up a lot of pressure to push on a token deck when suddenly the mono black player executed some infinite loop with Professor Onyx targeting themselves infinitely with Chain of Smog allowing Onyx to drain us infinitely. I guess I took home second place :/

Anyways, relevant testing out of all of this. I did manage to spin up monarch and it was really good. I did a little testing with the equipment package concept I talked about a while ago and got some somewhat mixed results in that I drew the 7 mana living weapon and was forced to get Batterskull with Godo instead. It was still good and the following turn godo enabled batterskull to attack twice which was relivant but it wasn't nearly as good as if I had been able to get the seven mana living weapon in that I had to cast Godo. So..... it felt like I got cheated out of quite a bit as when I cast godo I would much rather get the seven drop and when cheating him in with winota get batterskull but I had to get the wrong target in that I couldn't attack with either and I had to pay full price for godo the turn I played it. I also got wrathed after the attack the following turn. I plan to let it ride a little longer as I am not sure where I stand on equipment yet but look forward to a bit more testing. The seven mana living weapon would have been great when I went to cast it but it got counterspelled so I was kind of mad at my equipment this game but it was also an odd game.

I likely want to put a little more wrath protection into the deck. Lena, Selfless Champion was mentioned previously and I likely will explore that idea. I thought about some other random indestructible options going so far as considering Darksteel Myr (which really kind of fits a number of my needs awkwardly). Voice of the Blessed also kind of grew in my eyes a bit as I am pondering more things that don't get swept easily. I don't really want to push super hard on indestructible from the standpoint that I could just as easily walk into a sweeper that disregards any level of protection but I kind of like Voice of the Blessed in that it can be sticky but is also a cheap creature that enables winota and a payoff for if the lifegain triggers start rolling in.

I don't have any changes to highlight right now so much as me just rambling a bit but the deck is fun. My only complaint is really that its an aggro deck with somewhat of a flashy and slow to execute plan but its really cool to see in action. I could also potentially see myself pushing harder to run more monarch cards just because there are a good flying monarch creatures that could serve a few purposes.

[ISBPathfinder]

Crimson Vow Review:

• Priest of the Blessed Graf - I have been pushing the less lands concept for a while now. So far it has seemed to be working fine but boros being boros and all I feel far from confident in my few test games. I like that this is a human that gives non human flyers though and even just getting a token a turn still seems fairly reasonable. I could still go in on the Karoo lands which I haven't gone for yet but its an option if we get enough payoffs for having less lands in the deck. I am interested enough that I will likely want to test it assuming the less lands concept continues to pay off.
• By Invitation Only - Its hard to come up with sweepers that work well for a creature oriented deck. I am still not crazy about it but I think there aren't a lot of options that I am for a deck like this and its nice that it can be sculpted for what is needed.
• Voice of the Blessed - This card is one I brought up before but its also an effect that I feel I have been looking for a bit more of late which is a cheap creature that curves to Winota that can be sticky vs sweepers and a payoff for lifegain. I feel like I am a lot more interested in this than I was for something like Ajani's Pridemate and I was interested enough to have looked at that a few times.
• Welcoming Vampire - Well, this card just does everything we want for this deck. I want like 13 more functional reprints of this please.

These are some really interesting cards for this deck. Welcoming Vampire is definitely the MVP of these but I think all of the creatures are very reasonable and I hope to get copies of all three for testing.

DECK CHANGES:

• Speaker of the Heavens → Priest of the Blessed Graf Speaker has been kind of weird for me. I think it still has potential but I need to address some issues with card advantage first. I have liked the less lands concept so far so lets test out the newest addition whom happens to be a human that makes me non human flyers. It seems like a fairly good effect especially given the potential of what it can do for me assuming I get some of the bounce / sac based lands in play.
• Selfless Savior → Stoneforge Mystic spot indestructible just isn't quite what I was looking for. I think I need mass protection or spot protection from so I am going to cut this for Stoneforge. Stoneforge has some cool potential with the living weapons in early and I still have a Sword of Fire and Ice as a draw option as well.
• Pilgrim's Eye → Rousing of Souls I figure that Pilgrim's Eye is sort of a crap flyer with some small value attached but looking at Rousing of Souls I see more bodies and similar value. It is unfortunate that I hug opponents with this but I think the increased output of the evasive bodies makes up for it also boros tends to draw the worst and hugging as the player with the worst draw is usually acceptable. I still stand by not really liking the one shot token producers for the most part but rousing fits the curve and makes evasive tokens. I think 2-3 bodies on average in a four player game is still very reasonable results with a draw one stapled on it.
• Reidane, God of the Worthy → Welcoming Vampire better flyer and it comes with card draw. I was really only going to run Reidane as a hope to slow sweepers but I don't think it does enough since the sweepers still happen and depending on what sweeper it might not slow them really at all (like if they just weren't casting a sweeper because they didn't need it yet or were ramping out of control).
• Crested Sunmare → Lena, Selfless Champion some of my issues with Sunmare is that it needs a very specific setup to shine. In this I mean that when its at its best is when I have a soul sister that triggers on any creature entering the battlefield and then my opponents play creatures. Norin can't support it off of the soul sisters as his trigger to return misses the window for the horses so I just don't love Sunmare. Even when I am rolling in triggers and doing really well its just one horse a turn but when I am not its super not exciting. Some in my playgroup asked me how its different from Archangel of Thune and my response to that is that Thune has lifelink and can enable itself not to mention when I swim in triggers from Winota / Norin / whatever I can make a very large board almost immediately as I go to attack which is more impressive than making some horses that later might be a threat (I say might because they could still get bounced, saced, -/- to death or whatever). I wanted to bring in a little more to insulate my board from sweepers and I think Lena is currently the card I find the most interesting for this. It serves more purpose than just protection and that is why I want to try it out. Plus she is a human which helps for the type of effect I am looking for.
• Sun Titan → Aurelia, the Warleader I love sun titan. That said, I think its not the effect I want for this deck. Its an ETB creature who almost never lives to attack and his ETB just isn't good enough for me here. Aurelia and my commander can do crazy things together and I think there is great potential for value as well as damge output that the Sun Titan just feels too reserved for.
• Dawn of Hope → Voice of the Blessed the lifegain dependent payoffs are getting trimmed back quite a bit. I think this one was ok but it was expensive to pay for in a deck that isn't ramp heavy. I think that Voice can give me a more meaningful early game play in that it plays well as a curve to Winota play. I am hoping that a big evasive flying indestructible creature isn't too far fetched for this card to pull off but I like that even when I am not set up for it to work its ready to enable Winota and possibly enable its own needs.
• Spirit Bonds → Godo, Bandit Warlord well, I don't love cutting a two drop for a six drop but if I am being honest this two drop had a lot of added cost to it which made my other plays more expensive. I liked the potential of what Spirit Bonds could do for me just not the actual card in execution. It added a tax to my plays and also a tax if I wanted to keep an indestructible cost up. It felt really hard to play and capitalize from. It more or less did nothing if you curved it because playing everything off curve just isn't that appealing.
• Cosmos Elixir → Batterskull I don't love cutting draw but I have been adding a lot of card advantage in other places so I guess I will give it a pass for now. Batterskull pairs well with Godo and Stoneforge and gives me some redundancy for my equipment position given that I am adding a few tutors here.
• Well of Lost Dreams → Kaldra Compleat Well felt too slow and situational. I felt this way about a lot of the stuff that required lifegain to do anything in the list. Well was also awkward in that it took me gaining life and a bunch of mana beyond that. Its four mana to cast and then all that on top made it feel awkward to get started. I want to see how the living weapons work with this deck given I have a few ways to cheat them directly into play with Godo and Stoneforge. I like that this one has keyword soup including Indestructible giving me something sticky I can play to a busy board.
• Blinkmoth Nexus → Karoo I think that the manlands idesa is something that tends to pay off primarily if and when you run out of card advantage in boros. I don't think there are a lot of times that I want to give up two mana to attack with a manland instead of having that mana for other plays. If someone just swept me my first priority is likely to rebuild and while I am not saying that there is no chance that I would have the mana to recast my commander and activate / attack with the manland I just think that I would rather play towards the long game with my deck currently how it is. All of the idea behind Norin in this deck is primarily as a go long engine rather than trying to sneak in fast kills and I think similarly the manland idea is more of a concept geared towards the idea of going fast and running out of steam which is something that is hard to make work in boros. I think its better to gear up for going long rather than moving fast and quick. I did keep in the infect land because I think that this deck's +/+ counter concept could possibly push it the distance but I also think that there is a real chance I might soon consider making room for Dormant Volcano assuming this less lands concept thing keeps working out for me.

So, if you look at a number of cards that I cut it was a lot of cards that required me to gain life to do something as a payoff. I found the complexity of a number of these cards to be a little high. I am not saying that I am going to cut all lifegain payoff cards but several of them that did nothing if I wasn't gaining life especially those with me gaining life and paying mana on top getting cut. I have been fairly happy with a number of the lifegain payoffs still its just that I also saw a number of cards that did nothing without lifegain getting cut here. I am also not super happy with my curve going up a bit with these changes but I was also trying to force a number of six drops into the list. I think the fact that two of the six drops were humans also is something that I can discount a little as my human count went up and the high quality human targets is also up.

I feel like the way things are going if the less lands package continues to seem solid I will likely order a Dormant Volcano and see if I can work it in. I have been very hesitant to entertain Scorched Ruins given that its colorless mana but I guess its possible that if things keep paying off I might test it at some point I just think its one of the harder ones to make work when drawn early on.

For anyone who is watching this thread I sort of assume that Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer probably won't be ideal in the long run of this deck but I have yet to test it enough to feel satisfied cutting it given how much obtaining one cost. I think its likely going to be a card that fits better with the idea of a fast Winota aggro concept rather than what I seem to want to do being more of a midrange to go long kind of deck. I knew when I bought it that it might not work out but I also think I wouldn't hate building a deck for him at the helm so its no huge deal. I figured I would try to keep forcing him for now and hopefully I can experience drawing him.

[Ulka]

I was looking at your equipment list and I realized you may want to look at Helm of the Host as a combo with Godo if you wanted a way to combo out. Otherwise I really like were the deck is at.

[ISBPathfinder]

I was looking at your equipment list and I realized you may want to look at Helm of the Host as a combo with Godo if you wanted a way to combo out. Otherwise I really like were the deck is at.

I agree it could be a thing but I have a hardline of no infinite combo that I impose on myself. Its kind of odd right now as the only meta I get to play in plays with a bunch of combo. Still, I refuse to do it but it could be a thing for those interested. In general as a card I have found it to be a clunky card that tends to be better when playing with crazy amounts of mana (which my list isn't). I have often had a hard time casting + equipping in one turn and even then its a very big play and amount of mana for something that dies to spot creature removal.

It is possible that I might want to run Dowsing Dagger for an equipment ramp card. I have been holding off in part because my play on 4 mana tends to be my commander and I am trying to play with less lands but its also good enough ramp and in a land that I might still want to do it. That said, I could just as easily do something like Thran Dynamo, its just that it would fit in the equipment tutor package and ramping lands tends to be much stronger than ramping with artifacts (when your meta doesn't play LD).

[RowanKeltizar]

I've had a ton of success with Shadowspear. Trample and lifelink is a great combo and really the cost is a bargain for those effects and you get the niche utility of turning off indestructible.

As for other equipment Sword of Hearth and Home is great IMO and i think its perfect fit for boros. It also goes infinite with Aurelia, the Warleader and can bounce things like Recruiter of the Guard or Imperial Recruiter .

I'm wondering what you think of Cemetery Gatekeeper. Seems like one of these decent semi-stax creature based effects that would be a good answer against certain types of decks.

[ISBPathfinder]

I've had a ton of success with Shadowspear. Trample and lifelink is a great combo and really the cost is a bargain for those effects and you get the niche utility of turning off indestructible.

As for other equipment Sword of Hearth and Home is great IMO and i think its perfect fit for boros. It also goes infinite with Aurelia, the Warleader and can bounce things like Recruiter of the Guard or Imperial Recruiter .

I'm wondering what you think of Cemetery Gatekeeper. Seems like one of these decent semi-stax creature based effects that would be a good answer against certain types of decks.

Shadowspear - Some of the challenge with this deck is that my creature counts matter a lot. I need non humans to trigger Wintoa and I need humans to pull from my deck. It makes me more skeptical of anything that isn't a creature or something that makes creatures. It is a decent equipment especially for pushing trample or lifelink but a lot of my creatures are a bit more on the small side which makes me not too keen on this one. I tend to rely a bit more on quantity and mass buffing than something to buff a single creature. Part of my challenge with most equipment being that they aren't creatures and need to be set up on creatures. My deck has a lot of setup that is needed and sweepers can put it back a lot making me need to prioritize card advantage a bit harder. I tend to like shadowspear more when using larger creatures rather than swarming with creatures. It does still have the lifegain trigger if I was concerned about gaining life and it would pair well with Nykthos Paragon but I still think its probably too narrow of a card addition.

Sword of Hearth and Home - I did consider and I think I am in a similar boat when I say that it and Sword of the Animist could be options. I opted to do a less lands strategy though utilizing bounce and sac lands though using Cartographer's Hawk, Boreas Charger, Keeper of the Accord, and Priest of the Blessed Graf as my primary payoffs for doing so. I suppose Archaeomancer's Map is a thing too but its a reasonable card with or without a less lands concept. I have brought in more flicker targets though in some of the recent changes though so it might be more reasonable than it was before. I will have to give it some more thought. The problem is always in what I cut as I feel like I need to keep my creature count high and I haven't gotten to do much for testing with this deck thus far. I think this is probably at the top of my equipment considerations beyond what I have but I need to really get some more games in to get a feel for what I have in the list currently. I have been making a lot of changes to the deck and I have only played the deck on perhaps three occasions at this point.

Cemetery Gatekeeper - I just haven't been pushing for the aggro concept very hard with this deck in part because it has so much setup and has so many issues with sweepers. I don't think that complicating an aggro strategy with Norin is likely a good concept if pushing for fast damage and kills and this card I get the impression that the point of it would be more to run a fast aggro concept with it. The setup time it takes to get Norin working really pushed me more towards being a midrange or late kind of deck so I have put more emphasis into card advantage and not getting completely wrecked by sweepers. I do love cards like Spellshock but its just not the direction I was going for offhand. Personally I think that it fits similar roles to Eidolon of the Great Revel, Scab-Clan Berserker, and Harsh Mentor. I think this concept is really cool but I also think that if you are going to go for this concept you need a lot of redundancy and you are going to play archenemy in a lot of cases which is hard to do with a red based damage concept.

[Chromaticus]

My friend sleeved it up and we played a 1v1 today -

I played Varina, Lich Queen - midrange zombies.

I got… trounced. LOL.

He played Spirit of the Labyrinth - and that card is pretty rough against Varina

From that point, he got out some soul sisters, Norin the Wary and Nykthos Paragon, and the game-ending Blade Historian.

This deck is pretty dang good at asking if you've got answers - really solid first showing.

[ISBPathfinder]

My friend sleeved it up and we played a 1v1 today -

I played Varina, Lich Queen - midrange zombies.

I got… trounced. LOL.

He played Spirit of the Labyrinth - and that card is pretty rough against Varina

From that point, he got out some soul sisters, Norin the Wary and Nykthos Paragon, and the game-ending Blade Historian.

This deck is pretty dang good at asking if you've got answers - really solid first showing.

Great to hear. This deck is very proactive or at least the way I have mine is. Lots of the challenge though is how visible all the things you are doing are. I often get sort of 3 v 1ed as far as removal coming my way because of how flashy a lot of the things this deck does. It likely will 1v1 well against other multiplayer decks the challenge is getting through spot removal / sweepers from three opponents. It can also feel a little slow to close the game out so if your meta plays combos it can be a real pain in the ass as gaining life doesn't do much in light of someone doing something infinitely.

---

Small little change but as my card advantage has been getting a little better I have noticed that I don't have like, hardly any ramp and the only reason I have extra mana in a turn seems to be if I run out of cards in hand. I have noticed that several of my utility lands have sort of never been used or if I am using them I have already lost the game. I need to look into possibly some more passive effects or something, I just haven't been super thrilled with my utility lands thus far.

DECK CHANGE:

• Slayers' Stronghold → Dormant Volcano I have been enjoying the less land concept so lets just get the count up and do some more testing. The reason I would possibly consider stronghold is mostly when rebuilding after a wrath but getting Winota + a non human in play in one shot and then activating stronghold just isn't realistic. I haven't found many situations where I have been wishing for haste just given how much assembly my boards tend to need.

[ISBPathfinder]

Just playing with the lands a little. I have continued to notice issues in my ability to have enough mana in my turns especially for utility land activations. I am cutting into my utility lands a little here for some more pasive advantage and fixing.

DECK CHANGES:

• Castle Embereth → Cavern of Souls I just haven't really cared much about the utility of either of the castles in my limited exposure to them in this deck. I can't remember if I had the white one in shortly but neither of them seem to ever make sense to use their utility for this deck. Cavern will be a little more passive but also fix and make the deck stronger in that it protects a lot of my humans on cast including my commander or Norin if I have to tutor him to hand. It hasn't really been a problem but I think its still an improvement for the deck.
• Emeria, the Sky Ruin → Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I just haven't had the consistency of basic land types for lands. I think it would be different if there were more dual lands that counted as both but with only three options I have found myself short of these trigger effects in most cases. I think for now I am going to cut my losses and move on. I didn't realize it before now but I think this deck can make some good work of Nykthos due to how much it just plays to the board. I am hoping to see it make a little bit of mana for me as I often find myself wanting more mana.
• Mistveil Plains → Rugged Prairie just swapping an awkward tapped land with utility I never use out for more fixing.

So, with that change in I guess I have some concerns about Aurelia, the Warleader. I have a lot of packages in this deck and while I think she does play fairly decently to the commander as far as getting me triggers she doesn't seem to play to many other packages. She is also a six mana card in a deck that is starting to feel a little crowded on six drops. Being a non human does help for getting me more triggers but I also think I want to when possible keep my non humans cheaper to cast. I guess where I am at with her is that I have all these other packages like Norin abusers, human tribal, lifegain triggers, and equipment and she doesn't really fit into any of them other than my commander. Maybe that is enough but I keep trying to lower the count of some of my more expensive cast things but lately it feels like my count has been going the other direction. I haven't gotten to play in a while so maybe I am over reacting, I just thought I would kind of talk out some of my concerns of late. I kind of want more of my expensive drops to be humans and I want my non humans to be cheaper and lower on the curve.

I did a bit more poking into utility lands to see if there was anything I was missing that I thought I needed but nothing really jumped out at me. Offhand I was looking at: Blinkmoth Nexus, Hall of the Bandit Lord, Homeward Path, Kjeldoran Outpost, and Winding Canyons. I think its still a bit of a problem that I don't seem to have the mana to activate utility lands in most cases so some of the ones that are strong but narrow are a bit of the ones I am looking at. Its also possible that including Nykthos might help me generate more mana and help me have enough mana to activate stuff a bit more but I don't really know.

Assuming I don't pick up an effect that cares about how many basic land types again I might end up cutting Alpine Meadow as well. Its a bit awkward given how many better lands I have if my basic land count doesn't matter. I decided to leave it for now but it might be going soon.

[Chromaticus]

Mission massively successful.

My friend played the deck in two consecutive games and secret commander Norin showed up for both.

He did not tire for one second of notifying everyone when Norin the Wary needed to run away in response to triggers. The best one was when I played a Mind Stone and he yelped and removed Norin from the battlefield.

The first game he came out the gates really hot - one of his first flips was Angrath's Marauders. It was probably around 50 damage that he spread around before I landed Pyrohemia. That card… kind of kills this deck in its tracks. His only out in his own deck was Wear // Tear and it didn't show up.

I had allied with the Ruric Thar, the Unbowed player, and so when she didn't blow up my enchantment with Terastodon (instead blowing up his Rule of Law and the other player's problematic stuff, that was the writing on the wall for game 1.

The next game he came out even hotter with a Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin and Purphoros, God of the Forge doing work on everyone's life. He had a pretty massive board in addition, but a hasted Hammerfist Giant / Basilisk Collar combo wiped it all out. From that point, he had Norin the Wary and Purphoros, God of the Forge rolling, but never drew the 6th land by turn 10 or so to recast Winota, Joiner of Forces.

Overall, I would say that the deck REALLY churned, but suffered pretty harshly from board wipes. I also imagine he's going to be running some more interaction beyond the hate bears the next time I see the deck.

[ISBPathfinder]

Mission massively successful.

My friend played the deck in two consecutive games and secret commander Norin showed up for both.

He did not tire for one second of notifying everyone when Norin the Wary needed to run away in response to triggers. The best one was when I played a Mind Stone and he yelped and removed Norin from the battlefield.

The first game he came out the gates really hot - one of his first flips was Angrath's Marauders. It was probably around 50 damage that he spread around before I landed Pyrohemia. That card… kind of kills this deck in its tracks. His only out in his own deck was Wear // Tear and it didn't show up.

I had allied with the Ruric Thar, the Unbowed player, and so when she didn't blow up my enchantment with Terastodon (instead blowing up his Rule of Law and the other player's problematic stuff, that was the writing on the wall for game 1.

The next game he came out even hotter with a Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin and Purphoros, God of the Forge doing work on everyone's life. He had a pretty massive board in addition, but a hasted Hammerfist Giant / Basilisk Collar combo wiped it all out. From that point, he had Norin the Wary and Purphoros, God of the Forge rolling, but never drew the 6th land by turn 10 or so to recast Winota, Joiner of Forces.

Overall, I would say that the deck REALLY churned, but suffered pretty harshly from board wipes. I also imagine he's going to be running some more interaction beyond the hate bears the next time I see the deck.

Pyrohemia - Its rough but I have been in similar situations myself. One of the players in my meta plays Marath, Will of the Wild who is an absolute beating to play against. I have also encountered things like Nevinyrral's Disk (which also catches norin super annoyingly). To some degree, my own thoughts on the matter is that this deck has too many needs to reliably run enough spot removal that you will find it when you need it against something totally shutting you down. My solution has thus far been just to cross my fingers and hope not to get completely blown out by something I can't easily answer. I have mostly leaned into pushing harder on card advantage myself to overcome some of the issue of sweepers with a plan of just rebuilding. The upside of something like Pyrohemia is that this deck is an aggro deck and so to some degree the damage to each player should help the aggro element of this deck. Its also going to hit the other opponents and hopefully someone at the table answers it eventually. I think to some degree this type of deck has to accept that its going to get swept and its going to hurt. The question is how to rebuild somewhat quickly and how to keep hitting the land drops so that you can continue to play as well as keep your hand size up so you aren't empty on the gas can.

I love running interaction but I think this deck just has so many things it needs to do that its better to run lighter on removal and harder on what little draw / card advantage you can scrape together. I wish white had access to more Reclamation Sage type effects because that sort of thing would still fit into this type of deck but for now I am stuck with just Duergar Hedge-Mage. I guess the upside is that we have two recruiters who can still get him if necessary.

EDIT: just poking at my list and I was thinking a bit about some of the tempo moxen but very hesitant given how front loaded they require me to be not to mention how much of an issue they can be on card advantage in boros. But going down this line I realized I can probably get away with running Gemstone Caverns. Its a little against the less lands concept I was going for but at the same time it has the upside of being just a land drop outside of opening hands I think its worth the tempo land advantage in opening hands even if it does put me up on lands.

DECK CHANGE:

• Alpine Meadow → Gemstone Caverns without having enough fetchable dual lands to enable Emeria and Dwarven Mine I feel like I can probably cut this one for now given that its probably my worst mana fixing land in the deck. Gemstone is a very small chance of happening thing but it accelerates my start in a way I think is worth having in the list. The nice part about gemstone is that its a totally functional colorless land later so its downside is primarily just if you draw it early outside of opening hand and or are going first.

[ISBPathfinder]

I managed to play a 3 player game. I was hurting to find draw and or more lands in said game but I did manage to get Blessed Sanctuary + Norin the Wary and spin up a bunch of tokens after eating a wrath that set me way back. I got stuck on five lands though and couldn't manage any draw and didn't play a land for a few turns but did manage to slow play out Blade Historian and use it for devotion with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to power my commander back out. I managed to close the game out with a storm of bodies from Winota thanks to the Sanctuary.

With more testing I feel like I don't like the equipment plan that I added in recently. Godo is..... ok from hand but drawing godo or the equipment are all a bit lackluster and I haven't managed to draw Stoneforge Mystic yet which does sort of make sense given that the entire package is like 5 cards and I really only want to draw stoneforge of the bunch. Aurelia, the Warleader is also super awkward and I think I need to shift more to caring about my early game so I think I am likely going to cut her for something cheaper and more direct card advantage like.

CUT CONSIDERATIONS:

• Stoneforge Mystic
• Godo, Bandit Warlord
• Sword of Fire and Ice
• Batterskull
• Kaldra Compleat
• Aurelia, the Warleader

CONSIDERING:

• Speaker of the Heavens
• Pilgrim's Eye
• Land Tax
• Expidition Map
• Weathered Wayfarer

I need a bit more generic card advantage I think and some early game non humans would be welcome. Several of the cards in my consideration list are things that I did cut but I think I need to circle back to card advantage and easy land drops as its still something I struggle with. I kept a two land hand one game with a Lotus Vale but didn't draw another land in like 5 turns and scooped. It was a bit of a sketch keep but it had a Boreas Charger and a less land concept in the opener so I figured I could just poke about with that but got super screwed. Both games felt light on lands and I just need more early cheap interaction to keep me going and playing more lands. I also probably undervalued Nykthos in this deck previously as far as ramp and mana goes but it is also a bit winmore. I won't make any changes quite yet as I haven't gone through the options of what I am not playing to my satisfaction but I figured I would get my post down about some thoughts.

[ISBPathfinder]

I did some testing with the equipment and while I did live the dream of playing T2 Stoneforge and I did also manage to flip Godo into play off Winota, the package as a whole feels incredibly clunky and I really really really don't want to draw equipment for the most part.

With Kamigawa I saw Aerial Surveyor and I really wanted it. I can use Winota to crew it and it fits the deck really well. As I was contemplating this I felt that Smuggler's Copter also felt like it could fit quite well. Some of my issue is how sweepers can put me off of having anything left but keeping a vehicle through a sweeper might be a good restart.

• Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer → Smuggler's Copter I felt like Ragavan pushed a lot more to being a fast aggro Winota deck. He falls off kind of hard when played outside of starting and I don't love pushing to only run faster. I like the copter in that Winota can crew it when she comes in and it gives me a little filtering on an evasive vehicle which seems good from a stickyness in combat standpoint.
• Stoneforge Mystic → Lion Sash cutting the equipment package as I wasn't happy with it. Lion Sash is interesting in being a growable creature that can be played early that gives me access to grave hate which I sort of lacked. Its also useful in opening my recruiters toolbox up to having grave hate.
• Godo, Bandit Warlord → Volcanic Torrent cutting the equipment package and adding a little more interaction. I have been really keen on Volcanic lately even just as a 2 damage pyroclasm to opponents creatures I think it clears out a lot of go wide type decks and the fact that it cascades for
• Aurelia, the Warleader → Skyclave Apparition I saw Aurelia a few times and was really not impressed. A good bit of my disapointment in her was just that I needed to make it to mid / late game for her and even then just her and Winota isn't even that impressive given how much setup that is. I was a bit leery on Skyclave Apparition previously given it doesn't have evasion to live in an attack but it opens my recruiters toolbox up to having removal and I like how things removed by it are gone forever. I want a touch more interaction than I have currently so we will see how it plays. Its nice that I can throw the apparation away after its ETB in an attack.
• Sword of Fire and Ice → Flamekin Herald just gutting my equipment package for now as it has felt slow and clunky. I am not entirely sure I am sold on flamekin Herald but its a cool card I have been meaning to test for a while. It does curve well with my commander and I think post sweeper its a good card to lead on. I am not sure I am sold on it but I like the value and tempo added nature of it.
• Batterskull → Aerial Surveyor I have been enjoying my less lands concept here and Aerial Surveyor can be crewed from Winota while also triggering her and having evasion. I am really looking forward to seeing how it plays.
• Kaldra Compleat → By Invitation Only cutting the equipment package as I have been getting a wrong half issue constantly with them where its fine when I get cards in specific ways and they are bad when drawn in others. By Invitation Only is interesting as it plays well to swarm and token tactics which I feel this deck can play to.
• Inkmoth Nexus → Kor Haven I have had a little bit of an issue with some commanders who go big and then trampley / protection / unblockable coming for me. Its possible I could also use some Strip Mine effects to deal with things like Rogue's Passage. I will see if it remains an issue but I have been hit in combat via things I can't block a few times and it has annoyed me enough to add a maze in. We will see if it remains an issue or not.

The deck consistency for this deck is soooooo important. I wanted to add a little more interaction for it but I am also afraid to screw up the deck consistency. I think these changes will help me try to have a little more interaction but its hard to have a lot of room for spot removal in boros when your creature density matters so much as well. I might still play with a few more things that can give some level of control but I just have to be careful in how I implement it for this sort of a deck. Time to do some testing and then see how things do.

[Batman67]

I like the changes, as I am also trying for a little more interaction as well. Hope it works well for you, and will be watching for your results!

[maxblaster5000]

What do you think of Witty Roastmaster in this deck? Impact Tremors on a non-human seems like a good fit.

[Chromaticus]

Winota gets tools with every set — are there any cards you would look to pick up from recent sets?

Loran of the Third Path for instance

[ISBPathfinder]

Winota gets tools with every set — are there any cards you would look to pick up from recent sets?

Loran of the Third Path for instance

Loran of the Third Path seems good from the stand point that you can use some of the recruiters to go get it as needed but that process seems a little clunky. They are a human though so you get more access to them through Winota. I think the favorite card I have offhand that I am not running (because I don't still have this together) is Professional Face-Breaker though just because going wide with attackers is sort of already what this deck ideally is trying to do so it can help for some card advantage and it also gives some backup ramp in case your creatures get wrathed (assuming artifacts live through that sweep effect).

Myrel, Shield of Argive and Defiler of Faith also look somewhat ok if you want to run them. I don't think I am as hyped for them but I think both are probably fine if you wanted to try them out for this deck.

What do you think of Witty Roastmaster in this deck? Impact Tremors on a non-human seems like a good fit.

Sorry if I missed your post previously. I don't think doing one damage per is enough which has largely been my take on Impact Tremors for some time now. It also lacks evasion for attacking so while I wouldn't say it won't ever be able to attack a three cmc creature with bad stats and no evasion likely won't be able to attack.