Of Prices and "Playtest Cards"

[ZenN]

I haven't really paid attention to prices of things for a while, particularly because for years and years I've owned at least one copy of the majority of the reserved list staples.

But holy balls! Never mind stuff like Gaea's Cradle and duals that were always overpriced, but now even simple staples like Volrath's Stronghold, Yavimaya Hollow, Wheel of Fortune, etc. are all going for hundreds of dollars. Even something like Tithe is getting close.

It's becoming a sticky issue with one member of my usual group. The rest of us have many or most of these staples and he doesn't. We've told him we don't care if he proxies them, but he doesn't feel right about proxying the cards when we own them. Even this past year while we've been playing on Cockatrice because COVID, he has mostly avoided using any cards he doesn't own or can't reasonably acquire.

To be completely honest, for some time now I've been considering completely selling off my reserved list staples and going full proxy mode. I'm not exactly hard up for cash right now, but the numbers are big and it would make that one guy in my group feel better, I think.

I'm very curious about other people's thoughts on this. Have any of your groups cashed out? Or, I suppose, not invested in the first place.

Note: When I say "proxy" above I am using it colloquially to refer to playtest cards. Mostly basic lands with marker on them to say they're something else, or higher quality printed playtest cards with custom art/designs. Saying "proxy" is just easier, and is the most common colloquial term for that concept. This thread is intended only to discuss the current price barriers of the format and thoughts of using playtest cards. Any discussion of copyright-infringing imitation cards is a no-no.

[folding_music]

I have written "Vampiric Tutor" on too many swamps to begrudge anyone doing the same! Some people like showing off their cards, and they can - I have some cool expensive foils which I'll sleeve up from time to time - but if a card on the cusp of affordability doubles before you can buy it then you can just make your own and I won't disrespect that.

So many neat old cards are right in the crossfire of finance types right now and letting them hold you hostage sucks.

I've sold staples before and then proxied 'em up, I feel like it's going to become more prevalent.

[pokken]

It's becoming a sticky issue with one member of my usual group. The rest of us have many or most of these staples and he doesn't. We've told him we don't care if he proxies them, but he doesn't feel right about proxying the cards when we own them. Even this past year while we've been playing on Cockatrice because COVID, he has mostly avoided using any cards he doesn't own or can't reasonably acquire.

To be completely honest, for some time now I've been considering completely selling off my reserved list staples and going full proxy mode. I'm not exactly hard up for cash right now, but the numbers are big and it would make that one guy in my group feel better, I think.

I have told so many people the same thing and usually telling them what I paid for these cards is the thing that convinces them.

My first Mox Diamond was $35 and I traded in 7 copies of Kitchen Finks for it.

I would not have these cards if I had to spend $700 on a volcanic island, I traded an old PA rig for most of my duals when they were $100-200 apiece.

My last Gaea's Cradle was traded for with almost entirely copies of Stoneforge Mystic that I acquired at $5-10 and traded in for $40/apiece in credit.

Us enfranchised players can deal with these prices because all of our stuff has inflated, so for me anyway I just get rid of some spare $10 cards to fund whatever I want.

that said--

I would be really, really wary of selling off inflation-resistant assets right now. There's a lot of reason to think that real inflation is higher than it is shown to be on paper and the money printer just keeps going brrrr.

I think a huge portion of what's going on in the magic card community right now can be explained by the various massive cash infusions going on, and selling out early could be something you regret if dollars continue to plummet.

I sold off a handful of reserved list cards to some local kids here back in July for about $3000 and those same cards would be closer to $5000. I didn't need the money. It was dumb.

There's really no telling where the music stops unfortunately, but at this rate my collection has appreciated so much it could halve in value and I'd still be way ahead so I'm not stressing it

[Sinis]

I'm torn on it. I have an ever-increasing number of cards that are in the "don't-play" box because the monetary value gives me pause. Either players who are off-put, or simply not wanting to leave the house with thousands of dollars in fungible, liquid and untraceable goods. A few years ago, I played some teen at my LGS, and tabled my copy of The Abyss, and he glowed briefly ("Wow, that's a real The Abyss!") but deflated a moment later, saying "You know that's a thousand dollar card, right?"

On the one hand, I haven't sold. I am a collector and hoarder in my heart, and many of the cards have sentimental value. I'm a prolific buyer; I will buy anything I can afford that I see even a glimmer of value in (including for art, historical interest, or gameplay). On the other, it's thousands of dollars in cardboard at this point.

However, it's getting irksome to even keep track of it. I once (and only once) bought Metalworker for $10. I like artifact decks. When I sleeved it up it was $50. Now it's $200. Once, a dear friend of mine sent me a Rasputin Dreamweaver in the mail because I couldn't source one and he had one. "It's only ten bucks" he said. By the time the post had arrived, it was $40 and I offered to send it back (he declined). Now it's $300 (according to MTGstocks anyway). This, on and on, and on, and on. Cards are beginning to feel like landmines. A week or two ago, @bobthefunny informed me Vesuvan Doppelgangers were $100, and I had to dig up my playset sitting in a box unsleeved and relatively uncared for.

I hate proxying and I don't do it. It feels like a hack. But, I legit don't know what to do. I don't tell people not to proxy, and it's feels increasingly indefensible (to me) to say it to others.

[ZenN]

Selling now and having the prices keep going up later doesn't really concern me. No sense crying over spilled milk, and all that. I once donated an Unlimited Volcanic Island as a prize to a charity event at a local game store. It was about $100 at the time.

Realistically, I could cash out my collection and drop the tens of thousands of Maple dollars into some more sound investment, and have my hobby be not at all affected, while also not having a lot of money in cardboard sitting in drawers, boxes, and binders in my home office.

[Ruiner]

Personally I have no issue with people using proxy/"fake" cards or similar stuff. If someone wants to play and have a good time hanging with friends, that's my main concern, not that their bank account lost to mine or whatever. I understand people not wanting to use proxies of course, I don't use them, but I don't judge people who use them. I don't really care if they are "real" cards.

I could see selling off cards if you are strapped for cash but otherwise I'd probably just hold onto them if you don't need the money now.

Years and years ago, back when you could get a Revised Underground Sea for roughly $40.00, I acquired most of my cards that are rather expensive today. My playgroup took a break from Magic, playing mini-games and other stuff for a while, this stuff just goes in cycles. Most of them sold off most of their cards since they weren't using them at the time, while I just held onto mine. After getting back to playing Magic more often, they all expressed regret at selling off when they really didn't need to and then many rebought some stuff at way higher prices.

[UnNamed1]

I have a $10k fully foiled cEDH deck that I love. I also have a Nethroi deck that is fully proxy and only worth the cardboard its printed on.

I dont think its right to deny people the same cards simply on price. At the end of the day to me, it's just a game. Being in a poorer town just accentuates the situation. On one hand, my playgroup plays with insanely expensive decks, all high end and bling. On the other, I am just as happy playing with a well made deck that might be under $100. I can't expect a person who doesn't have the expendable income to put a paycheck into cardboard, its just unrealistic. I have brought a ton of proxies into my play group and a lot of us are moving in that direction. We don't feel as bad if the cards bend or get dropped.

Play to enjoy the game, don't limit people based on cost.

[Toshi]

Short answer:
I wouldn't mind at all, if the reserved list as a whole would either be finally abolished or banned as a whole for commander.

Long answer:
I don't mind proxies, as long as i can recognize them on first glance. May that be one of the existing artworks combined with a frame of choice or a super obvious card like Rampant Growth. I don't wanna see alters aside from commanders, no matter how cool and artsy they might be, i want to be able to maneuver the game quickly. Same goes for tokens, btw.
Myself, i don't run any proxies beyond playtesting. I just enjoy having all the cards and no flimsy solutions.

As for the reserved list, i hate it with a passion. It's a playing ground for MTG finance sharks and of the cards a common player might want to run, lots were unreasonably expensive, even before the current dumpster fire. Since everyone is always so adamant that commander is a sOcIaL fOrMaT, it would be completely reasonable to ban the reserved list, once we move past a certain point.
It wouldn't be a flawless solution, but the least aweful one, since WotC giving up on the list is highly unlikely. One of the arguments has always been not to crash values of existing collections. With the increasing prices this becomes even more of an argument not to p*ss a lot of people off.
Of the top of my head, five of the cards i own of the RL are worth somewhat significant money. Corpse Dance is great, but shouldn't be a $35 card. Same goes for Hall of Gemstone ($40) and a Didgeridoo (wtf, $40) i have sitting in a binder. Yavimaya Hollow and Earthcraft are $120 and $150 respectively and it bums me. If i wouldn't have picked them up for less than $25, i'd never pick them up at the current price. And since i don't run proxies, i know that selling them off would mean i would likely never own them again.

Generally speaking, i hate that EDH's paywall is increasing continously. When did we adjust ourselves with fricking Fellwar Stones and Nature's Lores being $5 cards? I might be idealistic here, but i wish we could just sit down, with everyone's functional deck mostly consisting of cards that cost below $1, spiced up with a few bigger ones.

The trajectory we're on leads to blatant gatekeeping and feel-bads since absolut basic stuff cost significant money.

[SocorroTortoise]

Proxy down to the basic lands if you want. The only real preferences I have are that you at least print out something with a picture if you're not making it on the spot to make it easy to quickly assess game state and be aware of the table's power level when you build. Me playing longer and/or having more disposable income to burn on cardboard shouldn't be a factor in how games play out.

As for the reserved list, i hate it with a passion. It's a playing ground for MTG finance sharks and of the cards a common player might want to run, lots were unreasonably expensive, even before the current dumpster fire. Since everyone is always so adamant that commander is a sOcIaL fOrMaT, it would be completely reasonable to ban the reserved list, once we move past a certain point.

I've seen this proposed before and it's never seemed like a good solution. Part of the appeal of this format for me is that it's a place to play old cards that really don't have a home anywhere else. I'm completely behind abolishing the RL, despite owning a lot of RL cards, because I would much rather have game pieces be readily available to the people who want to use than have them be investment vehicles for people who want to play in unregulated markets. Blanket banning a bunch of cards, most of which aren't problematic from a gameplay standpoint, has never seemed like a good course of action despite the money concerns.

[Lifeless]

I prefer if people use printed color slips of paper for proxies just so that they're easily identifiable across the table when the board is complicated. That being said I've never busted anyone's chops about a bad proxy. As long as they're not marked in sleeves go for it. It's not my job to police budgets or force someone out of our table because they didn't get lucky and start collecting this game 20 years ago.

We did have 2 players that cashed out most of their really top dollar stuff including a powered cube about 3 years ago. They technically lost their asses on the sale compared to current values but they reinvested the money in other things so it doesn't bother them. They still play with us all the time using decently printed proxies.

I'm generally of the mind that this is a game that's meant to be played and financial obstacles shouldn't be a factor. God know what my collection is worth but I truly wish Wizards would print everything into the ground.

[umtiger]

For your friend who is wary of proxying, I wouldn't push them on it. If they don't feel like proxying, it's okay.

I find it encouraging that so many factors in EDH like multiplayer and deck building and deck piloting can mean lots of players can win games and have fun. New cards are also crazy powerful.

If you have a tight group, one way to
1.) support a local store with cheap inventory
2.) find use for old cards and have fun time reusing them again
3.) vary up the games
Is to have block constructed EDH. For example, there's now enough Ravnica blocks to have Ravnica unified EDH. No RL to worry about.

[WizardMN]

Realistically, I could cash out my collection and drop the tens of thousands of Maple dollars into some more sound investment, and have my hobby be not at all affected, while also not having a lot of money in cardboard sitting in drawers, boxes, and binders in my home office.

This is exactly what I am going to do. I have been tracking my collection in the Collection Tracker here and it is going up by roughly $1000 a *day* (nearly $20,000 for the month). That is far too much money to be sitting in cardboard so I think once I get some things paid off, I will end up selling at least half my collection and start investing. The problem, of course, is that Magic cards have been a ridiculous "investment" choice so far. Like, ridiculously good. I am not going to be making $20k a month anywhere else.

Eventually though the increases will slow down and I will get out. There is never a "right" time to get out because there is a real possibility that they continuously increase until Magic dies. But it will probably hit somewhat of a plateau eventually with another few spikes here and there.

Regarding proxies, I have stated a number of times that everyone should use them if they don't want to pay the money. Especially for older cards. Not everyone needs them obviously but if you want to use them, go for it. We are pretty close to getting past the point of "you don't need duals to play" considering all the things that are increasing in price. Gilded Drake is $300!!! And it is pretty unique in what it allows for. Tithe was another good example. These are things that aren't necessarily staples but it feels bad to be priced out of.

[pokken]

Tithe was another good example

Tithe absolutely blows me away. I used to recommend it all the time when it was $4. One of my single favorite cards in EDH.

Now it's like...outside of budget, just because of the stupid RL. Really disappointing.

And it's not like the power level is bonkers.

[Ruiner]

Tithe was another good example

Tithe absolutely blows me away. I used to recommend it all the time when it was $4. One of my single favorite cards in EDH.

Now it's like...outside of budget, just because of the stupid RL. Really disappointing.

And it's not like the power level is bonkers.

Holey moley, I was unaware Tithe was spiking like crazy. Last I saw it was $15-ish last year. Crazy for it to be overtaking Land Tax.

[TheGildedGoose]

The RL in general and the secondary market specifically is hindering my enjoyment of the game, both in cards I would like to own (The Abyss) and cards my opponents would like to own but can't afford. I don't care about the "investment" aspect at all and just want fun games.

So yeah, proxy whatever you want.

[ZenN]

I think the general attitude towards the use of proxies has shifted significantly over the last few years. It wasn't that long ago that someone using proxies at the table with their friends was frowned upon in a lot of groups or stores, but now, from what I've seen, it's becoming more and more the norm as people just can't justify shelling out the kinds of money certain cards are going for, but still want to play the common staple cards.

I think the switch to Cockatrice for my group over the last year has been the single biggest factor in the rest of them losing any remaining care they had for whether or not a person is using proxies, as they've all enjoyed being able to just play however many copies of whatever cards across whatever decks.

[pokken]

It's super interesting to see how far this community has flipped too. If you asked this question on Sally 5 years back you would have been ridden out of town on a rail "proxies are theft!!!!!!"

I seriously miss the days when new commander mythics I wanted to play were always $0.50 too, all the interest in commander making The Great Henge a $60 card instead of a $1.00 card is infuriating.

[ZenN]

I seriously miss the days when new commander mythics I wanted to play were always $0.50 too, all the interest in commander making The Great Henge a $60 card instead of a $1.00 card is infuriating.

To be fair, The Great Henge is a staple in other formats, too, which drives the price as well.

[pokken]

To be fair, The Great Henge is a staple in other formats, too, which drives the price as well.

Fiery Emancipation Terror of the Peaks blah blah etc etc.

I suspect the henge would be like $15 if it was just standard driving it since the standard decks its in don't seem to even be very good.

I think prices are being driven a ton by EDH these days, even if standard factors into it.

[umtiger]

It's super interesting to see how far this community has flipped too. If you asked this question on Sally 5 years back you would have been ridden out of town on a rail "proxies are theft!!!!!!"

I seriously miss the days when new commander mythics I wanted to play were always $0.50 too, all the interest in commander making The Great Henge a $60 card instead of a $1.00 card is infuriating.

I still feel that way. "Proxies" waver from unreadable scribbling to straight up counterfeits.

You think someone's mad that they didn't buy a Polluted Delta when it was $10 during Khans? See how they feel if they find out their Polluted Delta they bought for $30 is counterfeit. That's real rage there.

Just build from cards you have that aren't getting love. That's how people had fun before EDH blew up and we did have more fun. The current trend of just hopping on EDHREC for a tailored list and complaining about prices is lame.

Fwiw, go through card kingdom's inventory for Commander Legends and sort by price. So many playable rares are $0.35. And the lower level of those cards would be busted by any standard other than Golos.

Building a deck from actual cards is more satisfying than proxies for most people. And you can do that and win and have fun without a single RL card.

The RL in general and the secondary market specifically is hindering my enjoyment of the game, both in cards I would like to own (The Abyss) and cards my opponents would like to own but can't afford. I don't care about the "investment" aspect at all and just want fun games.

So yeah, proxy whatever you want.

Why does anyone "need" RL cards to enjoy the game?

I would like to be able to afford a new Ferrari but it doesn't hinder me from enjoying the Nissan Altima that I have. I'm not racing professionally for salary. Or even racing recreationally for prizes or pride.

Like I said, I'd like to see the community take the next step and find different ways of having fun. Please stop checking EDHREC. Please stop watching game knights and then whining about a pioneer legal card spiking for EDH.

[Mookie]

I'm generally against proxies - I don't think it's necessary to run most cards, and that budget alternatives exist. Even if you feel like your decks are underpowered, I think it's possible to upgrade them enough to be competitive without spending that much.

...however, there is a point at which it is difficult to upgrade a deck meaningfully without throwing money at the problem, particularly if you're entering cEDH territory. I think that the format is more interesting when it's not in that territory, but if the others in your playgroup already own all the competitive staples or are proxying themselves, I don't think you should be obligated to spend money to stay competitive.

...in an ideal world, I'd say it's better to stop before the arms race gets out of hand. If you feel like your meta is getting too competitive, ask people to turn things down some. Only after that would I consider proxying, and at that point I'd still check with the playgroup beforehand. I'd also avoid bringing proxies into an unfamiliar playgroup.

....that said, the price of RL cards has gotten sort of absurd, so I could see myself proxying them out of principle - stuff like Tawnos's Coffin and Angus Mackenzie isn't exactly breaking the format, and it seems wasteful to spend that much money on a meme card.

[materpillar]

The RL in general and the secondary market specifically is hindering my enjoyment of the game, both in cards I would like to own (The Abyss) and cards my opponents would like to own but can't afford. I don't care about the "investment" aspect at all and just want fun games.

So yeah, proxy whatever you want.

Why does anyone "need" RL cards to enjoy the game?

I would like to be able to afford a new Ferrari but it doesn't hinder me from enjoying the Nissan Altima that I have. I'm not racing professionally for salary. Or even racing recreationally for prizes or pride.

Like I said, I'd like to see the community take the next step and find different ways of having fun. Please stop checking EDHREC. Please stop watching game knights and then whining about a pioneer legal card spiking for EDH.

I hard agreed with you a couple years ago but prices have gotten so ridiculous I don't anymore. One of my favorite cards in my changeling tribal deck is Didgeridoo. It gets so many eyebrow raises every time I cast it. I loved recommending it to people every time they rolled over to my deckthread. Now I just feel like I can't. The card is strong and fun but $40 so? I'm also running Swarmyard and Elephant Graveyard. They're both hilarious and greatly add to my enjoyment of the deck.

The theme of my Lazav, the Multifarious deck was literally "I'm going to beat you with trash quarter-bin cards". My running joke was that Hedron Crab was the most expensive card. Now Phyrexian Devourer is $15 because of the reserved list?

Card prices make it harder for me to enjoy the cards I've already collected because I picked them up for $5 instead of $300. So whenever I play these cards I'm very aware of my paywall advantage and I find that extremely distasteful.

I'd love to go back to quarter bin only magic the gathering that you've mentioned. Unfortunately, my highschool friend group/metagame has grown up and moved on. That means I basically only have access to pick up games at the LGS (or recently on PlayEDH). Quarter bin only magic the gathering doesn't really do particularly well when you show up against EDHrec-listing strangers. That's something you have to cultivate in a reoccurring group of people, which is just something I don't have access to.

[TheGildedGoose]

The RL in general and the secondary market specifically is hindering my enjoyment of the game, both in cards I would like to own (The Abyss) and cards my opponents would like to own but can't afford. I don't care about the "investment" aspect at all and just want fun games.

So yeah, proxy whatever you want.

Why does anyone "need" RL cards to enjoy the game?

I would like to be able to afford a new Ferrari but it doesn't hinder me from enjoying the Nissan Altima that I have. I'm not racing professionally for salary. Or even racing recreationally for prizes or pride.

Like I said, I'd like to see the community take the next step and find different ways of having fun. Please stop checking EDHREC. Please stop watching game knights and then whining about a pioneer legal card spiking for EDH.

I don't "need" to eat tacos but life would sure as hell be a lot worse if all I had to eat was nutrient paste.

[umtiger]

The RL in general and the secondary market specifically is hindering my enjoyment of the game, both in cards I would like to own (The Abyss) and cards my opponents would like to own but can't afford. I don't care about the "investment" aspect at all and just want fun games.

So yeah, proxy whatever you want.

Why does anyone "need" RL cards to enjoy the game?

I would like to be able to afford a new Ferrari but it doesn't hinder me from enjoying the Nissan Altima that I have. I'm not racing professionally for salary. Or even racing recreationally for prizes or pride.

Like I said, I'd like to see the community take the next step and find different ways of having fun. Please stop checking EDHREC. Please stop watching game knights and then whining about a pioneer legal card spiking for EDH.

I don't "need" to eat tacos but life would sure as hell be a lot worse if all I had to eat was nutrient paste.

That's not a fair analogy though. Tacos don't cost a lot. And even if they did and you couldn't eat them anymore, are you saying that you have no choice other soylent green?

Ironically, most actual "nutrient pastes" for people who value convenience above all else or doomsday preppers are actually expensive alternatives to cooking at home and not cheap.

[JovialJovian]

During the pandemic, my playgroup has gone completely online, and one of us vowed to never go back to paper.

While I plan to return to paper Magic, I do think that the ship has sailed on caring about proxies. I am in the camp that either these insanely expensive reserved-list cards either need to be banned, or there needs to be a default reserved-list proxy allowance to compensate. I like owning real copies of the cards I play, but I'm never going to drop the cash on a Gauntlet of Might or a Chains of Mephistopheles, so if I want to play with those cards, my only option is to use proxies, and I'm Ok with that. Though I think the purpose for the reserved list has long since faded into nothing, and now it's a relic that is just hampering the health of the aftermarket and blocking bizarre areas of design. Thunder Spirit for example is a stat-line that definitely would have reappeared multiple times if not for the reserved list.