Dungeon Running on a Budget?

[Hawk]

As part of my brother's "Gumball Commander Challenge" I kinda want to do a Dungeon Crawling deck. The lower power level and lack of access to strong engines makes dungeon value sound awesome. As a note, that means no card in the deck can be more than 0.25. As a result, that means Sefris of the Hidden Ways is out of contention (as are several of the better dungeon cards) and I have a major dilemma:

- Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker doesn't actually venture into the dungeon themselves, and there is no eligible commander in black or white to pair with Dungeon Delver that can natively venture or seize initiative either.

- And on the flipside, Rilsa Rael, Kingpin can venture on their own power but has to stick Delver in the '99 and not run Hama. With a 0.25 budget tutoring out Delver will be tricky...

I am not seriously considering any other commanders - I am 100% only looking at Hama, Rilsa, or a Dungeon Delver + Rasaad yn Bashir or Safana, Calimport Cutthroat deck. I'm not interested in Barrowin of Clan Undurr since I don't get to run either doublers, so the fallback plan on the table is actually to just run Queza, Augur of Agonies and have maximum dungeon cards in the '99. I'm pretty torn from there though. Is it better to be able to venture out of the command zone with Rilsa, or is it better to be able to double the dungeon triggers with Hama or Delver + Commander?

To help judge, here's all the venture/initiative cards that are eligible for Gumball Commander:

Into the Dungeon

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

White: 9

1 Ranger's Hawk

1 Immovable Rod

1 Delver's Torch

1 Cloister Gargoyle

1 Veteran Dungeoneer

1 Goliath Paladin

1 Planar Ally

1 Undercellar Sweep

1 Radiant Solar

Blue: 10

1 Fly

1 Secret Door

1 Yuan-ti Malison

1 Bar the Gate

1 Displacer Beast

1 Eccentric Apprentice

1 Aarakocra Sneak

1 Shortcut Seeker

1 Feywild Caretaker

1 Tomb of Horrors Adventurer

Black: 10

1 Fate's Reversal

1 Yuan-Ti Fang-blade

1 Precipitous Drop

1 Clattering Skeletons

1 Passageway Seer

1 Ravenloft Adventurer

1 Vicious Battlerager

1 From the Catacombs

1 Underdark Explorer

1 Zombie Ogre

Multicolor: 1

1 Midnight Pathlighter

Colorless: 5

1 Fifty Feet of Rope

1 Dungeon Map

1 Dungeoneer's Pack

1 Trailblazer's Torch

1 Dungeon Descent

Approximate Total Cost:

Huh, not helpful since Azorious and Dimir both end up at ~25 cards. So the real question is - is 25 cards enough in Azorious without a way to trigger it for Rasaad himself, or is it better to run Risa or go tricolored to run the extra 10-11 cards?

[Chromaticus]

Azorius gets my vote here - you're going to be a blink / venture deck in all likelihood if you go this route, and drawing your venture cards is going to feel more fun if you get twice the payoff natively.

Rilsa Rael, Kingpin does have the magic 7 power after dungeon completion though!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think Rilsa is the way to go. Having the initiative means you can always run dungeons regardless of your other cards, even if the payoffs may be weaker overall. Consistency > power imho.

[PrimevalCommander]

The $0.25 per card limit is tough. I built a budget Sefris deck for around $75, with plenty of room to drop that to sub $50 easily. Without Sefris, as the de-facto Dungeon commander, I'd go Rilsa, Rael since you get UNDERCITY and black has a couple of playable dungeon cards within budget. If Radiant Solar is truly in budget, just run whatever gets you in white and tutor Solar as fast as possible. If you don't want to be that one trick pony, go Rilsa Rael, Kingpin and try to get some saboteurs or unblockables pumped up with menace and deathtouch.

Queza could work by giving you maximum venture support, but the payoff for that commander is so weak it doesn't strike me as worth it.

First game I played with Rilsa Rael in the 99 of Sefris I was able live the dream and pair it up with Zetalpa, Primal Dawn and pump it with +5/+0 menace and deathtouch to hit for 18. Good times. Rilsa could be a great commander paired with Stealer of Secrets and Yuan-Ti Malison and Yuan-Ti Fang-Blade type stuff.

[Jemolk]

I'm inclined to suggest either Azorius or Esper just because the white venture cards you listed are so much better than the black. Radiant Solar, Planar Ally, and Midnight Pathlighter are all very strong. Every time I've played against a dungeon deck that's managed to stick a Midnight Pathlighter, that card has kicked my teeth in.

For the choice between Azorius and Esper, meanwhile, I have to admit I'm not convinced that 25 support cards for your primary theme is enough. Actually, I'm not convinced that 36 (because you get Barrowin in Esper) is enough either. So maybe Rilsa Rael is the way to go after all. Support in the command zone can make up for much more limited support outside it. Or you can just include lots of draw and whatever tutors you can in a Queza deck and rely on that to find your pieces, though I'm not sure how reliable that would be.

[PrimevalCommander]

Toluz, Clever Conductor
Kamiz, Obscura Oculus
Bane, Lord of Darkness

Any of these Esper legends speak to you? The uncommon one looks so painfully weak almost any other esper legend in your budget would be better. I bet one of these could even have fringe synergy with dungeon cards.

I agree Radiant Solar and Midnight Pathlighter are venture bombs, but Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker doesn't do much for me as the commander. I personally like Rilsa Rael, Kingpin better as a commander, despite the loss of the single best venture creature. Add some blink elements to the deck and you can steal the initiative at will and start venturing relatively quickly with the rest of the venture support.

Esper is ideal to get the best of both worlds, but hopefully with a commander that we would want to cast at least once per game.

[Hawk]

Thanks all!

I think Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker is out. If I want to run Azorious, Rasaad yn Bashir at least gives a clear alternative angle of kicking people's teeth in with Rasaad + Stoneskin and similar cards, and he synergizes extremely well with lots of the venture/initiative creatures.

Kamiz, Obscura Oculus is actually not terrible. He ensures we can get in there with our critters to steal initiative back, and double-striking someone like Yuan-Ti Malison or Yuan-Ti Fang-Blade is a lot of adventuring. I'm increasingly leaning that way, since while Rilsa Rael, Kingpin is good and also has a clear alternative gameplan of saboteurs and flickers, I just worry I'm never finishing a dungeon without the stronger venture cards.

[Gamazson]

When I was making my Glenn, the Voice of Calm deck I went on a tangent to draft up a Rasaad yn Bashir & Dungeon Delver deck. I ended up dropping the list because it started to drift away from my goal of a instant speed combat buff deck. Many of the suggestions I have would exceed .25c, but if you go with that pairing I recommend Skeleton Key for evasion and card selection. Refuse to Yield is a lethal buff while you have the advantage. You're Ambushed on the Road is also decent damage buff or can save you a creature.

[Ruiner]

Just throwing out another random suggestion but have you considered just going monowhite with Nadaar, Selfless Paladin? A friend of mine has been running a deck with that commander, although not on a budget, and it's done pretty decently and reliably gets through dungeons because the commander does it on his own.

Regarding Rilsa Rael, Kingpin, I've been playing a deck with her for the past few weeks and it has been a lot of fun. Mine isn't on a budget like your challenge here, but I can tell you she gets nasty with any Infect creatures as payoffs for when she has finished a dungeon (not sure if any of those are below your budget cut off). It's not particularly hard to get through a dungeon with that deck either.

[brainface]

a Dungeon Delver + Rasaad yn Bashir

Oh, hey, I built this!
Just in archidekt and not in actuality, but still: https://www.archidekt.com/decks/2894029#Tough_Gumball

I feel like Rasaad's ability to switch toughness gets a lot of punch per penny, and it's good enough that building around it provides a wincon and hitting a dungeon card is just gravy.

[Hawk]

Just throwing out another random suggestion but have you considered just going monowhite with Nadaar, Selfless Paladin? A friend of mine has been running a deck with that commander, although not on a budget, and it's done pretty decently and reliably gets through dungeons because the commander does it on his own.

Regarding Rilsa Rael, Kingpin, I've been playing a deck with her for the past few weeks and it has been a lot of fun. Mine isn't on a budget like your challenge here, but I can tell you she gets nasty with any Infect creatures as payoffs for when she has finished a dungeon (not sure if any of those are below your budget cut off). It's not particularly hard to get through a dungeon with that deck either.

Nadaar himself is off-budget sadly. Do you have a link to your Rilsa list?

[Ruiner]

Just throwing out another random suggestion but have you considered just going monowhite with Nadaar, Selfless Paladin? A friend of mine has been running a deck with that commander, although not on a budget, and it's done pretty decently and reliably gets through dungeons because the commander does it on his own.

Regarding Rilsa Rael, Kingpin, I've been playing a deck with her for the past few weeks and it has been a lot of fun. Mine isn't on a budget like your challenge here, but I can tell you she gets nasty with any Infect creatures as payoffs for when she has finished a dungeon (not sure if any of those are below your budget cut off). It's not particularly hard to get through a dungeon with that deck either.

Nadaar himself is off-budget sadly. Do you have a link to your Rilsa list?

My Rilsa list is not online at the moment but I am probably going to post it on here in the next few days. I'll try to remember to post a reply here to let you know when it is up.

[Ruiner]

@Hawk I just posted my decklist for Rilsa Rael in the "Decklists" sections (it's also in my signature). I'm not sure how helpful it will be as it isn't exactly a budget deck, but maybe you can get some inspiration from it anyway.