Bruna, the Fading Light - Mono-W Moat Control

[Sinis]

@ISBPathfinder It's true that I've sometimes encountered the same issues, but it's usually because of Land Tax. Gift of Estates is extremely questionable at this point, but I have never minded Land Tax even if it triggers only once. I also frequently Scroll Rack or Mask of Memory it away, so, there's that.

[ISBPathfinder]

I really haven't tested the balance effects yet to say much. Magus of the Balance is in my list right now but I will need to see it in action before I do anything more than theorycraft. I had some very positive games with Magus of the Disk and it sort of got me to laterally consider and want to test Magus of the Balance. The positive interactions with Lotus Field was more of a secondary pickup. I will try to give feedback on Magus of the Balance when I get to actually play again.

I do see some positive interaction with the lands that require us to bounce / sac lands. Its possible that Lotus Vale goes too far but for now, I think I am going to pick one up and test out how it works (once the new human is released that is). I have slowly been seeing more interactions and reasons for me to want to adjust my land count.

[Sinis]

I had some very positive games with Magus of the Disk and it sort of got me to laterally consider and want to test Magus of the Balance.

I wonder about it. For me, Magus of the Disk is gross on-tribe asymmetry with Avacyn. Magus of the Balance is a different animal.

That said, I can see that Magus could just shut down wider decks, or mega ramp/draw decks without the need for Avacyn, which is pretty tight. Maybe I'm underselling it.

That said, Lotus Vale is playing with fire. I used to play it when I ran Titania, Protector of Argoth|C14, but, it's extremely high risk. Everyone and their dog plays Tec Edge or Ghost Quarter or whatever these days.

[ISBPathfinder]

I get what you are saying about Lotus Vale. I really haven't had many people come after my Lost Vale though even when they do have strip mines. I am not sure if the fact that I will have invested three lands into one will make it more or less appealing to Strip Mine but considering that as lands, they kind of do exactly the same thing its hard to really say that Lotus Vale and Lost Vale really have any targeting difference for a strip mine effect other than the fact that Lotus Vale was a ramp effect and Lost Vale a land consolidation. Its possible that the less overall mana afterwards makes Lost Vale a bigger target.

Its worth noting that Strip Mines are also mana for their owners. It isn't the same but I have always thought that making each opponent discard one card is worth about one card of my own. Likewise when it comes to mana and lands I would value one of my own mana producing lands at about 3 mana generation from opponents. From this perspective, I would value a Strip Mine about equally with a Lotus Vale as far as me getting one mana and an opponent getting three. It would depend a lot on the situation at hand as to if I would use that Strip Mine on a Lotus Vale. Its easy to cash in a Strip Mine for an opposing Cabal Coffers / Nykthos because the mana generation difference tends to be more than a 1 to 3 ratio. It would depend on the opponents, and situation at hand I guess is what I am saying about Lotus Vale when it comes to Strip Mines as far as how I would personally approach targeting with it.

In case you don't follow why I value as above, its because for every turn I get, there are three opponents taking turns. In 1v1 magic, Duress is a fantastic card for example but when you move to four player ffa it tends to suck. It can still save you but you have to take into account that in 1v1 games people will Wasteland each other early as a means of stalling games and getting in for damage where as in this format said tactics don't work. The value of each of your resources is worth more than depriving opponents of the same resource. It would be like the difference of Time Warping vs upkeep Time Stopping someone. In 1v1 magic it would be the same effect but in 4 player FFA your own resource is worth more than your opponents. In a 1v1 game Strip Mineing someone's basic land would be a reasonable move but in a 4 player FFA it would be 1/3 the value.

I am not saying that people won't hit a Lotus Vale with a Strip Mine. In fact, the first few times they might be excited to punish you with it because they can. I am just pointing out that optimally speaking, its just an ok move. Its fine to do it, but it puts one player back a good bit and you back a bit while sort of putting the other two players ahead in that two opponents of theirs are back resources. I personally would probably be a bit against doing it myself if I saw someone else put down a Lotus Vale just because the options to abuse it are sort of low and I would value my own land about the same as their land in this case. I usually save Strip Mine effects for stopping something that is going to make me lose the game, like a Coffers / Emeria / Nykthos / Cradle / Gross busted utility land. Using a Strip Mine on three mana of lands is just ok in my book and it would probably be reserved for situations where I was ahead and the person who might stop me had it.

[toctheyounger]

Man, there's lots to go over here. You guys went all in on this discussion.

For what it's worth, I'm reluctant to go all in on the 'less lands than everyone' scenario. Here's why:

• Diminishing returns. Not the card, the mechanic itself is self-limiting. At some point (and probably not too far into the game either) your triggers will stop happening, and what then are you left with? A vanillla creature and lands no more than the rest of the table. Keeper of the Accord is a little different in that it compares to every opponent, so you get more triggers, but even then, it runs through it's utility really quite quickly. Sure, it'll help you not miss land drops if your hand is light, but it seems really marginal for generating advantage still. I really wish Wizards would just leave this mechanic behind tbh, it's not stunning, and pretending they're doing white a favour with it is disingenuous. Weathered Wayfarer is a little different, purely because he doesn't just grab basics, he'll get you exactly what you need.
• In order to really leverage the mechanic, you're going to need a way to sac your lands, and lands that generate a lot of mana. I certainly don't have the set up for Serra's Sanctum, I don't have a copy of Ancient Tomb, I personally think Temple of the False God is a trap card, and I'm...hesitant to run Urzatron in the list purely for not having a ton of ways to directly assemble it. Other than that there's Scorched Ruins, Lotus Vale and I guess you could run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers if you really felt the need. Or you go with heavy artifact mana - Basalt and Grim, Crypt, Vault, maybe modern Moxen if you can squeeze them in; I just can't afford even one or two of those, so it's a no from me.
• Other than all of the above. ít really would require a fair amount of redundancy in running land destruction to really reliably trigger them. Things like Cataclysm and Balance variants. I'm fine with running one or two, Magus of the Balance seems reasonable, but I just don't know how unpleasant I want to make the deck, and people tend to jump at the slightest sign of MLD. Ghost Quarter, Field of Ruin, sure, that's fine, and used in the right place it can stop you losing the game. Repetitive MLD though, in my experience people just scoop and that's just not how I want to win games, especially when it's purely for the sake of making sure my ramp triggers hit.

I actually also feel like the whole discussion is at least a little surplus to requirement; most games I can end up with more lands in play than any other player at the table. Reworking the deck to make these triggers work would mean a pretty enormous adjustment, and is it worth it? I'm not overly convinced.

Unless there's something in particular I'm missing? Is there an angle here I'm not seeing?

[Sinis]

I am not saying that people won't hit a Lotus Vale with a Strip Mine.

I hate to answer your well-thought out points with only a couple of sentences, but, here goes.

It's not that people should hit your 3-mana land. It's that there's someone out there who will make that sub-optimal play. We can agree that Duress sucks, but it's in 4545 (2%) of decks on edhrec. IME, someone will make that play, considering I've had my Lotus Field destroyed a few times. The gains from Lotus Vale, in terms of something like the come-from-behind white ramp or parity from Magus of the Balance is possible, yes, but the risk (of someone taking the suboptimal play) IMO outweighs the reward. More than that, if all your dreams come true and you're announcing triggers for from-behind land ramp, it only makes people more likely to perceive you to be ahead. Doubly so if you activate Magus of the Balance. IME, there's no way you're going to be able to go "Lotus Vale, tap for WWW, activate Magus." and not have someone say "OK, strip mine that." At that point, everyone's going to be equal for Magus of the Balance, so they might as well destroy any Vales or Karoos they can.

Lotus Field has the good graces to be hexproof, requiring something like Shadow Spear to bonk it. This often makes it a bridge too far for people. Lotus Vale is consolidation, but it won't really be just consolidation if you play Magus of the Balance or ramp-from-behind spells. If all these things are as you say they are, why not play Scorched Ruins as well, since it actually ramps and is just as vulnerable as Lotus Vale?

[Sinis]

Man, there's lots to go over here. You guys went all in on this discussion.

I like to think ISB and I have healthy disagreements.

I think part of my experience for this has been that when you play Lotus Vale, people get this idea that they can 3 for 1 you. It is technically equivalent to Lost Vale, but, I believe more people are willing to kick you down from Lotus Vale because it should (and often does) put you much worse off than where you started.

As always, though, I'm interested to hear how it works out for anyone. I have been known to be wrong, from time to time.

On to your points:

[*] Diminishing returns.

You're right in that these cards do have very diminishing returns, but the counterpoint is that each of them can be quite powerful individually. I think the key is that you want to draw at least one of them, and that having 4-6 of them in your deck is probably okay.

From my own perspective, I dispose of the extra lands and copies of this effect with Scroll Rack or Mask of Memory. Sometimes I use Terrain Generator.

[*] In order to really leverage the mechanic, you're going to need a way to sac your lands, and lands that generate a lot of mana.

I don't believe it's quite so hard to leverage. For my part, I just want to keep up with the other players. Once these cards stop triggering, I'm generally okay, and usually there's leftovers that push me ahead in the land-race (like extras from Land Tax or Endless Horizons, or a Sun Titan digging them up, etc.). Arguably, we can also play cycling lands (like Drifting Meadow, Secluded Steppe that we could play if we needed the land drops, or cycle when we've leveraged one of these cards.

I think that Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins are a bridge too far, simply because they're pretty vulnerable. Though, it would give us more opportunities to leverage Thespian's Stage. Also more opportunities for other people to leverage Thespian's Stage.

[*] Other than all of the above. ít really would require a fair amount of redundancy in running land destruction to really reliably trigger them. Things like Cataclysm and Balance variants. I'm fine with running one or two, Magus of the Balance seems reasonable, but I just don't know how unpleasant I want to make the deck, and people tend to jump at the slightest sign of MLD. Ghost Quarter, Field of Ruin, sure, that's fine, and used in the right place it can stop you losing the game. Repetitive MLD though, in my experience people just scoop and that's just not how I want to win games, especially when it's purely for the sake of making sure my ramp triggers hit.

I don't think these cards actually enable the triggers; more than anything, these things level the playing field. I think ISB's argument for Magus of the Balance is unrelated to gaming the ramp-from-behind cards, and more that both ramp-from-behind and Balance effects dovetail nicely with compact lands like Lotus Vale/Lotus Field. Even if you're ahead, you're ostensibly losing less than the other players who are getting equalized.

I actually also feel like the whole discussion is at least a little surplus to requirement; most games I can end up with more lands in play than any other player at the table. Reworking the deck to make these triggers work would mean a pretty enormous adjustment, and is it worth it? I'm not overly convinced.

Unless there's something in particular I'm missing? Is there an angle here I'm not seeing?

I, too, end up with more lands than other players. I think that it's because I play a lot of ramp-from-behind, and it usually leaves me with leftovers in hand to play to end up ahead. That's fine enough for me, and I don't feel the need to game it more than with Lotus Field. As for Magus of the Balance, it does have its niches where it can dumpster people playing strats that we might have some trouble with (like tokens when we're without Magus of the Moat). It wouldn't necessarily be a repeated dunk. Just enough to keep people on the back foot against our (ostensibly) superior creatures.

[toctheyounger]

@Sinis Nothing at all wrong with healthy debate! That's how we learn what works and what doesn't.

Ultimately, I just find myself generally unexcited with these effects. Land Tax is a little different because it's such a minimal investment, and what else are we gonna do T1 anyway? Or if you don't need it you toss it, no big deal. I just feel like recent games have been good enough for me that I don't really see the need to leverage the effect overly.

Again though, the general strategy is probably leaning outside of my immediate budget, so the discussion is moot for me either way. Does a lot of my ramp rely on spamming Solemn Simulacrum? The answer is not never, and it's a flimsy enough card that if there were a better ramp variant I'd much prefer to lose it from the list, but between that, Sword of the Animist and Wayfarer's Bauble I really haven't had enough issues to warrant looking too closely at 'if an opponent has less lands than you' approaches.

As an aside, I wonder at what point it starts to interfere with Emeria, the Sky Ruin? If I were leaning heavily on one strategy, I'd probably look at losing the other tbh.

[Sinis]

As an aside, I wonder at what point it starts to interfere with Emeria, the Sky Ruin? If I were leaning heavily on one strategy, I'd probably look at losing the other tbh.

It's pretty hard to interfere with Emeria, IME. If you're playing the from-behind ramp, excepting Weathered Wayfarer, they all search Plains.

[toctheyounger]

As an aside, I wonder at what point it starts to interfere with Emeria, the Sky Ruin? If I were leaning heavily on one strategy, I'd probably look at losing the other tbh.

It's pretty hard to interfere with Emeria, IME. If you're playing the from-behind ramp, excepting Weathered Wayfarer, they all search Plains.

But all of the high resource lands discussed here are non-Plains, and Emeria needs seven in play to trigger. That's 8 lands in play without any non-basics, and you're relying on your opponents having more than you do? I'm trying not to be doubtful, but generally in the games I play I'm at this level well ahead of the rest of the board, unless the rest of the board is running/heavily splashing green.

[Sinis]

But all of the high resource lands discussed here are non-Plains, and Emeria needs seven in play to trigger. That's 8 lands in play without any non-basics, and you're relying on your opponents having more than you do? I'm trying not to be doubtful, but generally in the games I play I'm at this level well ahead of the rest of the board, unless the rest of the board is running/heavily splashing green.

I find I'm behind or on par at the start, but around turn 4-6, I start pulling ahead of non-green players as they start to miss land drops. I guess the object of Lotus Vale/Scorched Ruins would be to extend that window, possibly in either direction. I usually leverage my ramp-from-behind cards in the first few turns, and after that, I don't find people are ahead much (frequently because I continue to hit land drops and they often don't).

I'm also not necessarily relying on other players having more lands, but, if you're leaning into Lotus Field and pile on Lotus Vale, it's probably a safe bet your opponents will have more lands than you and persistent search cards will operate better (like Land Tax, or the new guy who triggers on end steps). In terms of being 'behind', in my current list, you can game Tithe via fetchlands, Endless Horizons will always have more, Land Tax gets you so many that you will almost certainly be hitting land drops after it stops triggering, Myriad Landscape will find two, Sun Titan can dig up plains discarded from Land Tax or Fetches, and Brought Back, Faith's Reward can dig up fetches or lands sacrificed to Lotus Field (maybe I should play Lotus Vale ), etc. I don't generally have trouble having lots of plains out. I have been known to Ghost Quarter my own land and bring the GQ and target back with Brought Back to basically Rampant Growth. Bonus points if you GQ your own Flagstones of Trokair|TSP.

Second, I will probably keep the ~20 Plains I currently play, simply for Emeria Shepherd consistency as well. I'd be switching out other utility lands for cards like Lotus Vale if I were to run them. It's true that the cycling lands will probably never make the cut.

I think, also, the threat of Emeria is good enough that even if it were inconsistent, we'd play it anyway because the opportunity cost is fairly minimal (are you going to replace it with a Plains?). You're right, though; perhaps this is a very different direction and would not have room for something like Emeria.

Edit to add: @ISBPathfinder Okay, I'm not totally unsold on this, where we grind up lands via Lotus Field, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins and Vesuva, leverage from-behind-ramp, and other nonsense. It's a given we'll play Weathered Wayfarer... should we also play Expedition Map? Does this deck go deep enough for Gift of Estates? Since most from-behind cards put lands in your hand, we could run Mox Diamond...

[ISBPathfinder]

I have actually felt like Emeria has been slow to trigger for some time now but all of the things that get basic plains do help. I get what you mean on the reluctance on some of this but I also think that as we get more things that care about having less lands available to us it becomes a bit more of an option. Brought Back becomes more appealing with these and while its always a bit sketch we could consider fetchlands / Crucible of Worlds. Crucible + fetchland is a very similar result to Endless Horizons but I like how it can be used immediately where as you have to wait to get the value from Horizons. Endless Horizons does have the advantage of filter discard chaff or scroll rack tricks but there are pros and cons to each. I am not running fetches in my own list but its not as if I haven't run fetches in a mono color deck before.

I am also not sure if it really makes sense to do this or not. Its just more that as we see more and more effects like Keeper of the Accord it seems like it makes more sense to possibly look into these concepts.

For the record, I have and do run Expedition Map. I have enough utility lands that I would consider to be worth 2+ lands that I feel like its sort of a hybrid Wayfarer's Bauble. I can always get Ancient Tomb, Myriad Landscape, or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx if I want ramp but it also has the option of utility lands. I just think it has a lot of types of use in this sort of deck and my plays between turns 1 and 3 are quite flexible with this list so I really don't dislike it.

I haven't run Gift of Estates in some time. I would generally speaking run Land Tax before it and I have not run Land Tax in a while. If I go to using more of these bounce / sac lands I might go back to Land Tax though. I would normally consider Gift of Estates to be somewhat like a one time draw three effect similar to a Sign in Blood but with a known draw of basic lands. The hard thing about this is that we know its going to be basics and you need to have room for the lands not to mention be able to get them into play. The issues with the card would normally be that its an over time value assuming you can play out the lands. I guess, my issue with Gift of Estates is that its generally going to take time to play out the value from it but it is also a one time effect and we need to sort of keep the value in our hand until you can play them out. It isn't my favorite just given it usually takes time to play them out at which point I would rather have Land Tax for sure (which I am currently not playing but likely would if I go deeper into this concept of playing sac lands).

My list is in my signature and its up to date if you are curious of what I run.

[Sinis]

@ISBPathfinder Okay, fair. It's not 'let's pivot to this now', it's 'consider this for the future'.

FWIW, Endless Horizons is sometimes a card parity tool. If I'm sitting with 'enough' mana on the table, I'll exile every plains in my deck so I won't topdeck them.

[ISBPathfinder]

Yea, I don't think I would do it yet but when Keeper of the Accord comes out, I will probably at least test the concept and see how it feels. I am not overly worried about burning a little bit of money to test this sort of concept out. There are a number of things we already run that have some synergy with it and as more things come out it just keeps interesting me.

[toctheyounger]

Hmm...worth maybe keeping an eye on. This seems like more of a concept for you two to try out than I as it....doesn't seem budget friendly at all, and chasing that dragon will see me destitute, especially considering most of these lands are expensive purely for lack of reprints moreso than value in multiple formats. You never know though, it could work.

For what it's worth though, not all of these effects are created equal. For example the new fellow gives you tokens and that's fine if a little surplus to requirement, as well as a basic plains. whereas Knight of the White Orchid lets you search up any plains card. I guess there's not a ton of extra utility there, but if you want to keep using the trigger, Flagstones of Trokair is a nonbasic plains. Similarly, Verge Rangers lets you play any lands from the top of deck, although again the tradeoff there is probably needing to run something like Scroll Rack and/or some scry variants. I guess what I'm saying is it's worth picking through the effects and cherry picking the ones that a)trigger most repetitively and b)give you the most versatility or bang for your buck

Re Emeria, the Sky Ruin - I generally try not to even drop it until I'm close to it's threshold for use anyway, and even then if someone burns removal on it I'm ok with that. Sure it's slow, but it's also a land, and people run less removal for land than they ought to, and I'm totally ok with taking the risk that they have an answer for it.

Personally I don't think the deck needs to run Gift of Estates - it's fine on a budget, but once you're at the point of Land Tax you really ought to drop it. It's not like you have the option to recur it anyway, and outside of the first few turns its value drops off significantly and it really isn't top of the pile to start with.

@Sinis - I'm slightly biased because I'd play them anyway, I love the effect, but how have Faith's Reward and Brought Back worked out for you lately? I mean outside of leveraging this effect that I'm not totally convinced is worthwhile, are they versatile enough that you want to have them in the deck in general? Reward is a genuine favourite card of mine, I just remember it being in the list and not being all that versatile.

[Sinis]

I'm slightly biased because I'd play them anyway, I love the effect, but how have Faith's Reward and Brought Back worked out for you lately? I mean outside of leveraging this effect that I'm not totally convinced is worthwhile, are they versatile enough that you want to have them in the deck in general? Reward is a genuine favourite card of mine, I just remember it being in the list and not being all that versatile.

I actually won the last Bruna game off Faith's Reward. My opponents conspired to Oblation my Avacyn and wrath the board so I wouldn't win, and I happily drew my two cards, and windmill slammed Faith's Reward into two concessions (they were just out of juice, and staring down lethal).

I rarely use Faith's Reward solely for the lands. It sometimes happens with something like Ghost Quarter where I'll use my sacrifice-as-cost things try to squeeze some extra value out of it, but for the most part, our deck tables a lot of lands, and we can win with two or three creatures out, so I'll often have four mana for it and it can easily do work. It helps that I also play Khans fetches/Aura of Silence, Hedron Archive, etc. and it could potentially work with something like Hour of Reckoning for the one-sided wipe. I don't know if fetches are the tipping point for it, though.

I will say that I'm fonder of the more compact Brought Back. It brings them back tapped which is definitely a mark against it, but I find that the WW cost is much, much more manageable in the early/mid game, and can be pretty dope on turn three when you float two white, play a Lotus Field, and then bring back your two Plains (surely 2-mana explosive vegetation is worth it). I also find it handy with sacrifice effects; if someone is going to Swords my Avacyn with the intent to wrath, I can use High Market or something on Avacyn, and then Brought Back in response to the wipe. The WW cost makes it very easy to leverage, and it's almost always possible to get decent value.

Both of the effects dovetail nicely with things like Bounty Agent, Mind Stone, etc. I don't ever find them to be dead.

[toctheyounger]

I'm slightly biased because I'd play them anyway, I love the effect, but how have Faith's Reward and Brought Back worked out for you lately? I mean outside of leveraging this effect that I'm not totally convinced is worthwhile, are they versatile enough that you want to have them in the deck in general? Reward is a genuine favourite card of mine, I just remember it being in the list and not being all that versatile.

I actually won the last Bruna game off Faith's Reward. My opponents conspired to Oblation my Avacyn and wrath the board so I wouldn't win, and I happily drew my two cards, and windmill slammed Faith's Reward into two concessions (they were just out of juice, and staring down lethal).

I rarely use Faith's Reward solely for the lands. It sometimes happens with something like Ghost Quarter where I'll use my sacrifice-as-cost things try to squeeze some extra value out of it, but for the most part, our deck tables a lot of lands, and we can win with two or three creatures out, so I'll often have four mana for it and it can easily do work. It helps that I also play Khans fetches/Aura of Silence, Hedron Archive, etc. and it could potentially work with something like Hour of Reckoning for the one-sided wipe. I don't know if fetches are the tipping point for it, though.

I will say that I'm fonder of the more compact Brought Back. It brings them back tapped which is definitely a mark against it, but I find that the WW cost is much, much more manageable in the early/mid game, and can be pretty dope on turn three when you float two white, play a Lotus Field, and then bring back your two Plains (surely 2-mana explosive vegetation is worth it). I also find it handy with sacrifice effects; if someone is going to Swords my Avacyn with the intent to wrath, I can use High Market or something on Avacyn, and then Brought Back in response to the wipe. The WW cost makes it very easy to leverage, and it's almost always possible to get decent value.

Both of the effects dovetail nicely with things like Bounty Agent, Mind Stone, etc. I don't ever find them to be dead.

Yeah, I may have to find some space.

Currently it's the whole thing of 'I can take whatever wipes you throw at me and bounce back, but I do struggle with summoning sickness. The added advantage of being able to swing on your turn is endlessly valuable. Other than that, I guess I have enough sacrifice effects that it'd be worth looking at adding them in. It'd also be real nice to pop them after activating something like Magus of the Balance or Magus of the Disk for some serious board disparity.

[ISBPathfinder]

Brought Back has been a card I have been interested in. I will probably try to put it in for some testing when I do get around to trying out these land sacing lands. It also pushes me to consider fetchlands but I guess we will see how far I go with the concept. My issue with Faith's Reward has always been how hefty that four mana can be to keep up. It seems fine later in the game but that still leaves a lot of time I am not that happy with it in my hand.

[toctheyounger]

Brought Back has been a card I have been interested in. I will probably try to put it in for some testing when I do get around to trying out these land sacing lands. It also pushes me to consider fetchlands but I guess we will see how far I go with the concept. My issue with Faith's Reward has always been how hefty that four mana can be to keep up. It seems fine later in the game but that still leaves a lot of time I am not that happy with it in my hand.

Honestly, I've been reluctant to add either back in purely for fear they sit in my hand without the resource to cast them when I need to. I think I'll (try to) get some games in and see what sort of instant speed w I have around that could actually help me cast either of these. Clearly it's not going to be a ton of use for land synergies for me, but there's still plenty they can do for me if I can make sure I'm able to cast them when I need to.

[Sinis]

This is old news to everyone, but, I did try monarch cards and they work pretty well. Protector of the Crown is surprisingly effective; I find other players are less likely to spend resources trying to plow through my board and Protector only for the player to their left to have the first crack at monarch. It also protects from deadly overruns which may have been worth it even without monarch (have we ever tested Veteran Bodyguard?).

I have not yet lived the dream with Avacyn, but I did win the games that I managed to table monarch, and will probably even test Palace Sentinels in the next games I play.

Second: has anyone played Apostle of Purifying Light? I've been considering some graveyard hate, but am reluctant to go with the on-tribe Angel of Finality because it could get leveraged against us. In the Pro category, Apostle is low to the ground, has a useful/relevant protection, is on tribe. All those things mean it's something that could carry a sword and be rezzed by Sun Titan. In the Con category, it could be every bit as bad for us as Angel of Finality; 2 mana per activation is manageable enough to respond to any of our reanimation feats.

[ISBPathfinder]

This is old news to everyone, but, I did try monarch cards and they work pretty well. Protector of the Crown is surprisingly effective; I find other players are less likely to spend resources trying to plow through my board and Protector only for the player to their left to have the first crack at monarch. It also protects from deadly overruns which may have been worth it even without monarch (have we ever tested Veteran Bodyguard?).

I have not yet lived the dream with Avacyn, but I did win the games that I managed to table monarch, and will probably even test Palace Sentinels in the next games I play.

Second: has anyone played Apostle of Purifying Light? I've been considering some graveyard hate, but am reluctant to go with the on-tribe Angel of Finality because it could get leveraged against us. In the Pro category, Apostle is low to the ground, has a useful/relevant protection, is on tribe. All those things mean it's something that could carry a sword and be rezzed by Sun Titan. In the Con category, it could be every bit as bad for us as Angel of Finality; 2 mana per activation is manageable enough to respond to any of our reanimation feats.

Glad you gave monarch a shot. I play with Palace Sentinels as well and I have been more than happy to run them as well. I can't say that I have as much exposure on playing them (because of variance). Monarch has been great for me so far though and really I am very happy to spin up Monarch with this deck.

Apostle of Purifying Light I ran it for a while. I think its totally fine, I guess my issue is a little bit along the lines that when it isn't relevant its a fairly big blank. I think I like it more than I do Angel of Finality mostly because a sorcery speed one time grave hate just isn't that good if you ask me. In the end, I ended up cutting it for Phyrexian Furnace after having some good results from Scrabbling Claws. My current grave hate package is: Phyrexian Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, Soul-Guide Lantern, and Hallowed Moonlight. I like my current setup as all of this doesn't hurt me, it can be cantriped off when not relevant, and most of it is cheap to use and maintain. If I could get my hands on another Scrabbling Claws level card I probably would find a way to make room for it.

EDIT: I have built a deck around Veteran Bodyguard type effects before. I did it with Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant which was hilarious as I built around mitigating the damage to them. Its a very defensive style of deck but it tended to kind of suck against control decks and it often drew more attention than it was worth doing. It was amusing though. In this deck, ehhh I don't know. I like playing a little heavier control effects like Tabernacle / Moat to stop swarm tactics but there is some validity to them. The upside is that you allow that swarm deck to go elsewhere while making them unable to kill you first. The hard part is that it buys you one turn so if they can create a large board that isn't just one shot big then it can be less relevant. Its also shown ahead of time where as something like Comeuppance is a surprise stop to them. I am fond of these type of effects but I have also tested them some and they tend to irritate people and require some setup to be more than a one shot fog.

[toctheyounger]

This is old news to everyone, but, I did try monarch cards and they work pretty well. Protector of the Crown is surprisingly effective; I find other players are less likely to spend resources trying to plow through my board and Protector only for the player to their left to have the first crack at monarch. It also protects from deadly overruns which may have been worth it even without monarch (have we ever tested Veteran Bodyguard?).

Glad it worked out for you. Frustratingly Palace Sentinels isn't a card I've got a spare copy of, so fitting it into the list is something I haven't had to manage yet. Re Veteran Bodyguard - no, but at one point I ran Weathered Bodyguards. They were pretty fun as a shield wall, but I found they often just invited removal or board wipes. That's the thing about forting out, you're kind of saying 'you can't touch me, neener neener neener' and people react to that with 'hold my Oblivion Stone'. I've just sort of found it better to be proactive and...well, hatebears have been my go-to to some degree.

As an aside with spoilers coming through, what do you guys think of Angel of Destiny? Personally, I probably won't run it. Similar to Thassa's Oracle or Laboratory Maniac it's just not how I want to win. I can see it being pretty easy to win with with the right equipment in the build and enough lifelink shenanigans, I just don't know that that's what I want to do. I'd rather my wins we're protracted and painful for everyone involved

[Sinis]

That's the thing about forting out, you're kind of saying 'you can't touch me, neener neener neener' and people react to that with 'hold my Oblivion Stone'. I've just sort of found it better to be proactive and...well, hatebears have been my go-to to some degree.

Yeah, that was my experience for the exactly-one-game I played Worship|USG for.

As an aside with spoilers coming through, what do you guys think of Angel of Destiny?

Eh. Doesn't dovetail with our other wincons much. Is probably a do-nothing. 5-slot is also full of good choices that are not this.

[toctheyounger]

Eh. Doesn't dovetail with our other wincons much. Is probably a do-nothing. 5-slot is also full of good choices that are not this.

Glad I'm not alone here. It's just not something I want to find the space for. Win/Lose the game conditions are just not something I want to do.

[ISBPathfinder]

Angel of Destiny - to be honest I think its a little more lifegain.deck than what we have here. I don't hate it nearly as much as I do most every other alt wincon in that it needs to attack and connect to me and there is also a condition beyond that. I would say as far as alt wincons go, I wouldn't actually hate if I lost to this one.

It does carry equipment well being double striker and there are some games where all I really need to do is gain some life to make it harder for opponents to directly attack my life out. I think there are some games where it could be relivant. I did in fact run Baneslayer Angel for a while just to buy me some insulation value against some of the direct damage type of aristocrat style decks. I think there is some validity to it in that style of a deck and I like that it has some level of concern if it would be left alone which Baneslayer Angel lacks. I have moved to more of an approach where I try to make as many of my creatures as possible be must answer things in some situation or another. The upside of this angel is that it gives you a life buffer against more aggressive decks or decks that might syphon you while also threatening a control player with the option of one shotting them.

I think I would like it a touch more if we were a deck that cared more about lifegain triggers. I could see it being incredible in a Heliod, Sun-Crowned but I also think that it could be reasonable in this deck still. I think beyond that this is another option that could potentially let us pivot if we wanted to a lifegain matters deck which its possible doesn't add up for us right now but its possible that in the future it might.

As for right now...... I guess I am at a point where assuming it isn't super expensive after release I might pick one up. I think its probably the most reasonable alt wincon I have ever seen requiring it to attack and not be blocked / mazed / killed before then / your life total to be high. I really don't like alternative win / loss cons to be too easy and I think this one looks reasonable enough that I would be willing to put it in for testing. I really like its statline / mana ratio and I am intrigued enough that its on my list of things I might test.

EDIT: I should probably read the card closer. I guess it kills people it attacked not dealt damage to lol. I guess that makes it stronger and you have to more than chump block it. Its still probably on my list of maybes for now though.