Zur, Millowfort

Chromaticus
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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

Yes, I'm making another Esper deck, but this time it's for a friend so it doesn't count…

Inspiration here is drawn from @ISBPathfinder's Dennick, Pious Apprentice // Dennick, Pious Apparition deck, in that I want a mill engine, without dying.
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Basic plan is to play mill enchantments and hide behind various Propaganda effects.

Would love feedback - especially from anyone who's run a mill deck.
Last edited by Chromaticus 1 year ago, edited 11 times in total.

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

My first concern is going to be that your commander is terrifying and I at all times want to murder the ever living hell out of any and all Zur commanders. My point about saying this is that you might be in the crosshairs from the get go with the commander choice. Its tough just from the standpoint that pulling a lot of hate upfront could make things harder assuming someone pushes you off your commander.

One shot milling - In general I have found it to not be very efficient outside of the ones that close the games out on their own. Taking 10 cards from one players library just isn't worth a card on its own assuming that is all it is going to do. I do think that Mind Grind is very much the exception but its because it hits all opponents for a lot more potentially as a closer.

Bruvac the Grandiloquent - People suggest me to run this card all the time but here is my argument against it. He does nothing on his own. If you have one other source of mill then he is literally only as good as if you had had two sources of milling because its twice as strong which really is just as good as having two of the same effect in play. This means it takes him plus two other mill cards to make him start generating positive value. I think he is winmore. I get the appeal I am just pointing out how many cards you need set up for him to actually do something and the OMG KILL THE HELL OUT OF THAT GUY is real for this guy. People panic like they just saw a damn three foot tall spider when they see something like this but again, he doesn't actually do anything without a lot more setup.

To talk a bit more broadly though I see you have mill, wraths, recursion, and some propaganda stuff but it feels like you lack single threat defense. By this I mean what if someone comes at you with a voltron deck or with just some fatties rather than going wide. It feels like you have no active defense other than hoping that your commander can tutor. I also have this thing where Zur is kind of a competitive kill on sight commander. I know you are doing something a little less intense with him but I really do think if I could beat you up the first few times you cast your commander I would just because its Zur. To be fair though the first commander group I played in had like three freaking Zur decks in 8 players lol. My fear is that normally when you play mill you really want to represent a low threat to the table and fly under the threat radar until you can pull out some big dumb thing and start offing players with it. Walking in with one of the spookiest commanders out there and asking to be ignored sounds like a tough sell to me. To be fair I don't actually have a hard and fast list of spookiest commanders but Zur probably makes a list of top 30 things I will try to murder on sight.

Sorcery Interaction Spot Removal - I am going to be honest, if I have something that is going to kill only one thing its probably not going to be a sorcery. Probably take that Vindicate and just cut it for Generous Gift and move along. Sure its not quite the same effect but man sorcery speed spot removal is something I try really hard not to run.
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Chromaticus
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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

Thanks for the feedback ISBPathfinder!

The friend I'm building this for had a few requests, and the commander choice was one that I was ignoring — he wanted something old-school non-threatening in the original spirit of the format. So I may just swap out Zur for Chromium.

In regards to single threat defense, that is a good point. I can work in a Maze of Ith and Kor Haven without issue.

Getting away from Zur also alleviates the need to be on enchantments for my removal.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

My Captain N'ghathrod deck is more mill-focused (and less Horror tribal) than most Captain decks I see around. I think Moxfield is more up-to-date currently than my list on Nexus: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/RkQjVthbj0mJloqlIiuX_g

A few comments here:
Probably worth putting in some mill pay-offs (like Captain, which helps shore up your defenses, but reanimating blockers or threats), or Lazav, as examples...although you do have a fair amount of graveyard auto-exile, so payoffs may not work. Conversely, if you're heavy on the exile graveyard effects, Web of Inertia is probably a very strong defensive piece for you.

Mill generates a LOT of hate at most tables. You have some interaction, but don't really have blockers.

Whispering Madness is very good if you have any attackers you can get through reliably to trigger a second (or third, fourth, etc...) time, especially alongside something like Psychic Corrosion.

I would definitely recommend Cut Your Losses over Traumatize. It's hard milling a table, and it will be that much more difficult if you're doing it one at a time.

Breach the Multiverse is a fun card, and works even with all the graveyard exile effects.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I could also see Saruman of Many Colors being that he deals in mill or even Oloro, Ageless Ascetic just because he will passively make it harder to kill you although I have also seen Oloro take a lot of extra hits because of the commander choice.
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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

Made some edits based on both your advice — I think the card pool is looking better now, and it's probably time to think about curve.

Saruman of Many Colors I had not seen. He's at least mill themed, even if he's odd. Am I reading correctly that he can possibly 3 for 1— or whiff entirely?


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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

That's good - I was completely baffled by the wording. Sounds like you have way more control over what you get.

How do you typically go about proactive (pillowfort) protection and reactive? I haven't really ever run the pillowfort style?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Chromaticus wrote:
1 year ago
That's good - I was completely baffled by the wording. Sounds like you have way more control over what you get.

How do you typically go about proactive (pillowfort) protection and reactive? I haven't really ever run the pillowfort style?
Generally you set up things to defend yourself from the current threats that are also not threatening. Its true that you could use 100 tokens to block 100 threats but obviously having 100 tokens is threatening itself. I find that having a mix of proactive and reactive reactions helps me a lot. By this I mean having things like say Fog Bank in play makes players need more threats to really attack you effectively and if they extend wide enough for that to be a problem you could then potentially utilize spot interaction assuming they push you.

I built my own list with no actual way to sweep the board but as a flip side I can build up additional defenses. I want people to be a problem but I want to also make it so that its other players problems. If you play something like Moat it will stop opponents from attacking anyone and that forces them to deal with you before they can attack anyone. If you instead use something like Crawlspace you just make it hard for them to turn that swarm on you. The idea of pillowfort is often to not actually deal with the problem but make it kind of hard for the problem to come at you as you just put up defenses and stall the problem onto your opponents first.

Some examples of pillowfort might be to consider: Keep in mind these are mostly just combat based pillowfort ideas. You could also pillowfort by means of gaining life or preventing life loss. If your opponent goes into Aristocrat tactics for instance a lot of these above ideas aren't going to work at which point you might see some lifegain to work better or even shifting to some proactive removal of the aristocrats or sac outlets.

My own personal take of what pillowfort is is propping up a bunch of defenses while keeping up spot interaction for absolute emergencies while refusing to answer most things. When I play my own mill deck I generally refuse to interact with anything that isn't going to make me lose the game essentially in the next turn. I want my opponents to be threatening and do big spooky things. If my opponents are doing big swingy things they draw the attention of the other players and I ideally only stop people from killing me. Its why I push for a lot of proactive defenses paired with instant speed interaction. In my own opinion a lot of people play control strategies wrong in that they feel like they have to interact with everything. The more you can refrain from interacting while having the option to the better off you are in my opinion. When you answer something insignificant for the next player to see you tapped out and comboing is the worst.

Some amount of building a pillowfort concept is also taking into account what you encounter in your meta and finding cards that make those strategies harder. Usually the goal is to find cards that defend only yourself and not the other players at the table and you hope to shift threats to your opponents. Any player that can be eliminated tends to help you focus any targeted milling to the leftover players.
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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

I've goldfished a good bit — this deck is too damn slow if it isn't running Zur the Enchanter. I don't plan to lean into it much more than I already have - basically just going to add Borrowed Time and Grasp of Fate for a couple sweepers.

There is nothing worse than a deck not doing its thing - if my buddy doesn't like the heat from the commander, I'll let him make that assessment.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I get you. Mill is hard and I play mine a little different allowing the deck to mill a little bit continuously while generating value from the mill with my commander. Its hitting a bit different from what you are trying to do so some of it is me trying to apply what I know to some different concept. I honestly walked into my concept not even really worried about if I was killing players or not so much as seeing if I could make the commander function. I do get a lot of wins with my deck but its a long grind for sure.
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