JumpStart: SideQuests! Help Wanted

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Introduction
JumpStart: SideQuests! Is my WIP custom JumpStart cube, where each pack is built around a sidequest: some objective that won't directly win the game, but will significantly increase the power of your deck (in turn making it easier to win).

For example, the mill pack isn't designed to completely deck your opponent, rather, it tries to mill your opponent enough that you can then beat them up with Jace's Phantasm and Expedition Lookout type cards.

The result is a vast variety of deck combinations, each with two distinct sidequests and, of course, a main quest of killing the opponent.

Inspiration
Jace's Phantasm might be the first non-land magic card I ever saw. A friend of mine in boy scouts had a couple decks and taught me how to play, his favorite deck was a mono-blue mill deck that ran Jace's Phantasm. At the time, that card was quite the menace, a 5/5 with flying for 1? Removing a t1 Jace's Phantasm before its condition was met was very important, otherwise it would kill you in very short order. Of course, nowadays, I look back and realize that Jace's Phantasm was terrible, not necessarily from a numbers view point, a 1/1 with flying and the potential to grow for 1 mana is perfectly reasonable, but because, systematically, rewarding mill with a big creature runs contrary to mills game plan. Mill wants to win be decking you, and Jace's Phantasm wants to win by reducing your life total to 0, two different goals with no real overlap. As time has gone on, I've identified many cards with similar issues, the entire corrupted mechanic, as seen on cards like Apostle of Invasion, is a great example, if you manage to get 3 poison counters on your opponent, might as well go all the way and get 10, rather than pivoting to regular combat damage. Despite knowing that these cards range from bad to awful, I kind of love them anyways. I'd never put them in a deck of course, but something about their Rube-Goldberg-esque design just tickles my fancy.

Recently, playing in-person Magic has become next-to-impossible, of the three game stores in reasonable driving range, only one of them has a large enough space to host games, and they've been struggling to get enough people together to even run a 4 player commander game. Which is unfortunate, but out of my control.I've tried to get my wife and/or brother into mtg, with varying degrees of success, and I'm currently working on creating a small, 180 card, cube to that end. However, I thought something more "shuffle up and play" would be a better starting point, and since I've never been too impressed with Wizard's "duel decks" I decided I'd look into JumpStart. I don't have a Vorthos bone in my body, however, so I knew I'd have to find themes with more mechanical depth than "dog tribal" or "angel tribal" or "elf tribal."

I came up with a list of ideas and started building, but quickly realized that I found my "greater than starting life total" pack starring Twinblade Paladin and my "opponent has less than ten life" pack starring Guul Draz Vampire far more interesting than many of my other ideas, so I started building more packages like those and eventually cutting many of the less interesting packs. Eventually, I decided to make ALL the packs these SideQuest packs. The result will be a very small collection of packs, but, in my opinion, much more interesting themes and combinations. More importantly, they're the kind of mechanics you can't really explore anywhere else.

Breaking Singleton
Most Jumpstart packs have 1 of each copy of card, or maybe 2 copies of one important card. It seems like most custom JumpStart packs follow the same guidelines, but I'm not a fan of singleton for the kind of cube I'm trying to create. It adds extra mental overhead for newer players, and makes the themes weaker (in particular, some themes in this cube only have 1-3 pay-off cards in the entirety of magic). It's also a lot easier to balance packs when you can adjust the numbers of certain cards.

Of course, the flip side is I don't want every pack to be 4 copies of 3 cards and lands, so, in general, I tried to shoot for 6-8 unique non-lands, and no more than 3 copies of a card.

The Packs
White Packs
Vitality (greater than 20 life)
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Vitality
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One of the first packs I made, interestingly, Serra Ascendant, despite being the inspiration for the pack didn't make the cut, 30 life would have been the highest lifetotal requirement in the deck. Speaker of the Heavens should be much more consistent, easier to turn on, and better stats (vigilance) when it's not turned on

Providence is a card I was uncertain about at first, but I've grown to like it more and more as time goes on. Gaining life is arguably the hardest SideQuest as your opponent will be actively trying to undo your progress. So giving them the dream of achieving their SideQuest on turn 0, plus giving them a Hail Mary if things are looking grim seems like a fair tradeoff. What's neat is that, unlike anywhere else, casting Providence isn't just buying time against the inevitable, if casting Providence turns on your cards, all you payoff creatures might actually put you ahead on board. Allowing you to STAY at that high life total and turn the tide. It is prohibitively expensive though, so it might still be cut.
Artificer (metalcraft)
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Court Homunculus and Toolcraft Exemplar are both omitted because I felt they were too easy, Ideally, all cards should have the same requirement in each pack, but for many SideQuests, that's not possible, here, it is though.

Ancient Den does put the list over it's budget, but can totally be cut.
Blue Packs
Insanity (mill)
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Something that was important to me when building this deck was to make sure decking your opponent rarely became the primary wincon. For that reason, there is very little repeatable mill (just the 2 Merfolk Windrobbers) and the mill requirements are pretty light to compensate. There are a number of cards that reward the player for milling 20 or more cards, but that seemed too extreme, either the mill would be too weak and you'd never achieve your SideQuest or your mill would be too strong, and it would be too easy to take it the rest of the way and mill the last ~10 cards from your opponent.

Didn't Say Please is sweet in this deck, functionally mills 4 cards (because the countered card also goes to the yard). There's actually a functionally identical version of this card, but I love the sass on this card.
Level Up (level up)
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Nothing fancy, one could argue that their should be 3 Venerated Teachers and only 2 Champion's Drake. But Champion's Drake falls more in line with what a SideQuest should be (either you have it, or you don't). And it's not a dead card if everything is leveled up.

Spreading Seas might be a bit mean for a goofy JumpStart cube, but I wanted to give Halimar Wavewatch at least a chance to become unblockable against any deck.

Hada Spy Patrol is suspect, I don't like the idea of shroud in an environment that I'm intentionally not putting any board wipes in. But it's a one-of and it requires investment to get there, so I think it's fine.
Black Packs
Blood Lust (opponent has less than 10 life)
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You could make the argument that getting your opponent to 10 or less life isn't really a SideQuest, after all, that's just the first step to everyone's main quest which is to get a player to 0 life. However, I think it's good to have an honest-to-goodness aggro deck, that still has a strong theme. Besides, the SideQuest does change a lot of play. The phrase "The only life point that matters is the last one" isn't so true when letting the Vampire Lacerator through will also turn on your opponents 2 Guul Draz Vampires.

I'm really happy with Clawing Torment as it does everything this pack wants, it removes a blocker while also dealing more damage. Who cares if your opponents creature survives, as long as it's out of the way.

Mechanically, Tyrant's Choice is great in this deck, 2 mana 4 life should help you turn on your payoffs, or heave over the finish line. However, aesthetically, I don't like the whole irrelevant-in-a-one-a-one voting. So if I find a good alternative, it might get cut.

I also considered Sorin Markov as a way to turn on your payoffs even if the board is clogged up, but first of all, that's a pricy magic card, second of all, the aggro pack shouldn't be playing 6 drops.
Witch's Brew (Bogbrew Witch combo)
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Apparently, Bogbrew Witch was Tier 3ish back when it was in standard, but I never got to play with it then, so this is new for me.

Only one Bubbling Cauldron might be ambitious, but you only need one, and Bogbrew Witch tutors it up uncounterably, so I think I prefer giving myself some additional room in the pack.

Echoing Return is sweet, you want to save it until you've used all 3 Festering Newt to get them all back and go again, but it can also be used to get back Bogbrew Witch if your opponent managed to counter/kill it before you tutored everything up (or just use it on something important in your other pack).

Zhentarim Bandit isn't anything special, but the deck doesn't do much until it gets Bogbrew Witch out, so a body with decent stats that can ramp into her should be a good fit.

Witch's Cottage would be a flavorful inclusion to sub out a swamp, but, realistically, with no fetches, unless you are lucky enough to get into a monoblack deck, you probably won't see 3 other swamps until VERY late game.
Red Packs
Dinosaur Turtle (Yidaro, Wandering Monster)
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Name is WIP, suggestions welcome XD

I actually made the entire pack before throwing Squee in, but it's one of my favorite engines, so I'm glad I found a home for it (I don't really think it would work as a dedicated theme in this cube).

I love this pack and the Dragon's Approach pack, but they are very similar: dig through your deck while casting/cycling the same card until it gives you a huge pay-off, so, for the sake of variety, I'm thinking it might be best to only include one, in which case, it'll definitely be this one. Then again, If they are both really cool, maybe I shouldn't over think it and I should just run both.
Spelleater (spellmastery and similar effects)
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Very basic pack, Ghitu Lavarunner is a pretty weak magic card, but it fits the theme so I forced it in. Fiery Impulse is a strictly worse Lightning Bolt, but that's not saying a bunch, and, again, Fiery Impulse fits the theme.
Green Packs
Corruption (3 or more poison counters)
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There's a couple ways to take this theme, and I'm not sure I picked the best one, but I like it well enough, it's got a lot of ramp, but most of its outlets are gated behind achieving corrupted, meaning opponents would be wise to fight tooth and nail not to get poisoned.

A second Venerated Rotpriest would probably be good for the deck, but I don't want it to be too easy to achieve corrupted in the early game. (Again, benefit of ignoring singleton, if I decide this pack needs a boost I can put more rotpriests in).
Prosperity (controlling enough lands)
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Prosperity is the best name I could come up with, other suggestions are welcome.

Scute Mob brings me happiness, it might be my favorite magic card (and no, Scute Swarm, while cool, does not bring nearly as much joy). Pretty basic list, Topiary Stomper is worth a pretty penny, but works so well for this pack that I went ahead and splurged anyways. Probably could use a bit higher of a mana curve to make use of all the ramp, but I always struggle to find a good mana curve once ramp is involved, so I'll leave it as is for now.

One more land then the base outline to make it just a bit easier for the deck to get enough lands out.
Other Themes
Rejected Themes
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Shadow of Mortality: Directly conflicts with the Vitality package, and Death's Shadow already sees play in eternal formats, so I elected to include the less-popular mechanic.

Ferocious: It seems too easy: playing creatures with a high power is just generically a good idea, and MOST packs are capable of achieving this side quest on their own. Coven and, to a lesser extent Pack Tactics are similar mechanics with a bit more promise in my opinion.

Hellbent: First of all, it doesn't play nicely with other packs, even if all the Hellbent pack cards in your hand can be played early/don't mind being pitched, it's likely that the other pack will include some important, lategame plays which you'll have to wait for. Second of all, I don't really like how much hellbent status flips on and off, pretty much every sidequest can be turned back off (mill could have the opponent exile some cards from their GY, Vitality could be dealt some damage, Bloodlust's opponent could gain some life), but at least they require SOME interaction from your opponent for that to happen, Hellbent just gets turned off every draw step and can be turned back on if you are able to cast your top deck. (Besides, the hellbent payoffs aren't particularly exciting, so it's no great loss).

Hedron Alignment: When I think "ridiculous mini-game" this is probably the first card that comes to mind, but any alternate win-condition is a no-go in this cube. The idea is that you have two themes in your deck, with wildly different SideQuest, but they both, ultimately, are geared towards reducing your opponent's life points to 0. Obviously, depending on the boardstate/cards in hand, a player might be more aggressively trying to complete one SideQuest over another, but it's pretty undeniable that the mos powerful option is to complete both sidequests. Hedron Alignment, and any other alternate win condition don't help reduce your opponent's life total, so you end up with 2 packs with no overlap whatsoever.


I made a pack around Dragon's Approach, but it was pretty bad so I cut it:
Dragon Rider (Dragon's Approach)
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I ultimately decided on Bogardan Hellkite as the dragon of choice, I wanted something with a strong ETB effect to make sure that you at least got something out of achieving your SideQuest if your opponent immediately removed it. I did consider Lightning Shrieker, It's much more castable if it ends up in your hand, and afterwards shuffles itself back in so that you can still grab it with Dragon's Approach. However, the reward for completing your sidequest being "5 damage" seems a bit underwhelming, especially because I suspect this SideQuest won't always be completed, and I want it to be exciting when you do. Besides, Fire Prophecy is a good card anyways that fixes the problem.

Bitter Reunion is sweet, it bins a Dragon's Approach while digging deeper for more, and when you do get your Bogardan Hellkite, you can give it haste! I considered running one of these and one Cathartic Reunion, especially because the deck doesn't have a lot of variety to begin with, but Bitter Reunion is too perfect for the deck.

While not a hard rule, I've been trying to keep each packs budget to ~$10 and this one costs $35. Turns out Dragon's Approach is a $5 card. Not much I can do about it though.
Themes that I haven't gotten to work (yet, hopefully)
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The City's Blessing: Is kind of a perfect SideQuest, but the payoffs just aren't there. White has two great 1-drop payoffs, and then a mediocre 5 drop. Blue has a few more options, but it's mostly just CA and more CA. I suppose I could include some generic evasive beaters and turn it into a bit of a tempo shell? Expel from Orazca is a beating.

Complete a Dungeon: Initiative is far to polarizing to be in this cube, but the OG venture mechanic would be fine. Problem is, once again, pay-offs. White has two decent pay-offs, but they are both 3 drops, and black has Acererak the Archlich, which I really want to make work, I just need to figure out how to make sure people are incentivized to go through the Tomb of Annihilation over the other two options. (also, the only other payoff in black is a mediocre removal spell)

Coven: Just haven't gotten around to it yet, White seems like a no-go, as most of the white pay-offs all have 3 power, but green might work out nicely.
And that's all I have for now, I'm aiming to get 2 packs for each color before I physically assemble them, meaning I only need one more white pack (and maybe one more red pack if I decide the two I have are too similar) but I think, long-term, I'll want 3 or even 4 packs per color, which is challenging considering how picky I'm being with each pack, but I'm confident I'll get there eventually, and would appreciate any ideas/help along the way.
Last edited by Dunadain 3 months ago, edited 7 times in total.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

...Aaand immediately after posting this I came up with a second pack for white: metalcraft!
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Court Homunculus and Toolcraft Exemplar are both omitted because I felt they were too easy, Ideally, all cards should have the same requirement in each pack, but for many SideQuests, that's not possible, here, it is though.

Ancient Den does put the list over it's budget, but can totally be cut.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Well, I got the chance to test the packs digitally with my brother. We played each pack at least once, so I have some notes on the packs, but, most important, it was FUN. Juggling two different SideQuests while also trying to keep your opponent off of theirs made for a lot of interesting gameplay. In particular, anything that required combat damage to work (eg. Goldvein Pick, or all the creatures with Toxic) were really interesting as they introduce a lot of complexity to combat math.

So, I consider the experiment a rousing success and I'll continue to flesh this cube out until I have something I'm proud of.

Individual notes on the packs:

The Dragon's Approach pack should probably go, we played a lot of games with it, and it never once went off, Dragon's Approach is such a bad card that it felt like you were playing a game with half of your deck being blanks. The only time Bogardan Hellkite hit the field was when one of us managed to hard cast it. The Yidaro, Wandering Monster deck never worked either, but we only played 2 matches with that pack, and at least Yidaro replaces himself, costs 1 less, and can be cycled at instant speed.

Speaking of Yidaro, Wandering Monster, Electric Revelation is a pretty bad magic card, for some reason, I though the flashback cost was , at which rate it would be bad, but maybe reasonable, at I'm convinced it's not worth it and will be looking to replace.

The mill deck could probably use a bit more milling effects, only played 2 matches with it, but never got more than 6 cards in a yard.

The number of lands deck is a bit uninteractive, you can't exactly stop your opponent from playing lands, so I'd like to add some more play to that deck (maybe one of those creatures that ramps you when you deal combat damage to a player?)

Artificer pack was great, I kind of want to put a second Goldvein Pick in. The card was really neat, there's the minigame of trying not to let it connect, so that they don't get metalcraft, then on their end, they have to decide if they want to save their treasures for metalcraft, or if it's worth it to lose metalcraft by cashing out those treasures.

Very happy with how corruption, vitality, and witches brew played out.

So yeah, once I have a job again I'll begin physically assembling this, and in the meantime I'm hoping to come up with more packs. I think the ultimate goal would be 4 of each color, for 20 packs, but that'll take awhile, for now, I just want to cement 10 packs that I'm happy with.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Came up with a replacement red pack for Dragon's Approach: Spelleater!
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A pretty boring list, but it should be much better!
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Made a LOT of progress over the weekend:

Added a second Goldvein Pick to the artificer pack, replacing a Thraben Inspector. I was really happy with how the Goldvein Pick played out in testing.

Cut Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor and Electric Revelation from the Wandering Monster pack in favor for 1 Arc Lightning and 2 Fire Prophecy. Hopefully the pack will function more as a control deck allowing it to stall long enough to cycle Yidaro, Wandering Monster 4 times.

When I posted these packs, at the very last minute, I replaced 2 Expand the Spheres in the corruption pack with two Glistening Sphere, without checking the price. I do like Glistening Sphere slightly more, but not at $5 a pop, so I swapped it back to Expand the Sphere.

I also made a bunch of new packs:
Cultist (reanimator)
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Goremand is the perfect reanimation target for this pack. The pack is intentionally much slower than a real reanimator deck, the earliest you'll reanimate is turn 4, but I wanted to make sure that it was still worth your time to reanimate it, rather than just hard casting it. Goremand's additional casting cost is circumvented if you reanimate him, so either way, it'll cost you a card to get him on the field. He has a good, but not game-ending ETB if your opponent does have removal up, and, thematically, he's a big flying demon.

I only wanted one reanimation target, because the whole point of JumpStart: SideQuests! is to juggle two different gameplans, I don't want to reward focusing too hard on only one of your gameplans and I worry getting 2 Goremands out will probably be better than the alternatives. However, I also realized that 2 reanimations targets was probably better in the event that a player floods out on reanimation effects, so I felt a single Archfiend's Vessel was a good compromise. Not nearly as powerful as reanimating Goremand, but it's something to trade in that third Doomed Necromancer for.

As an aside, everything that I wanted to put in this deck is pricy! Anything that enables reanimation tends to maintain value. I'm actually more happy with the alternatives I came up with, but it was a bit frustrating.

I'm pretty happy with this pack, my only misgiving is that reanimator isn't exactly a niche strategy, and I think one of the appeals of this cube is that you get to play with strategies that you wouldn't see anywhere else.
Aventurer (party)
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Pretty simple pack, not a lot of strategy to it though, just play the creatures.
Delirious (delirium)
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I really like this pack, Soul Swallower might be a bit too good at cracking open board stalls, but it's a one-of and a 4 drop. Swapped out the normal Thriving Grove for a Evolving Wilds, slightly worse as a fixing land, but makes achieving Delirium just a little bit easier.

I'm pretty sure I'm taking the prosperity pack out, it wasn't particularly interesting to play as you mostly just make land drops until your creatures get big. As much as I love Scute Mob it, hilariously, might be too good, the games are slow and there isn't too much removal, the fact that it grows without getting into combat means you can just hang back if you don't have good attacks, and you almost certainly will next turn. I tried remaking the list with an explore theme with cards like Glowcap Lantern, but that doesn't change the fact that you can just make land drops normally until you win. Therefore, this Delirium list will probably replace it.
Coven (coven)
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Similar to the Adventurer pack, it's a fine pack, if a bit boring.

If anyone's reading these, I'd seriously recommend trying this cube out. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but playing this packs is the most fun I've had playing magic in a while.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Thematically, I love the Insanity pack, but I got even MORE digital testing in with the deck yesterday and the pack really struggles to turn on its cards. When I made the deck, I was expecting more cards to naturally go to the GY than actually bore out in testing, so I'm looking to improve the pack while still remaining true to its original design:

1) Mill can't be a viable wincon. Obviously, strange board states do arise, and decking is always a possibility, but I want to do what I can to make sure it is infrequent. In practice, this means no repeatable mill effects like Ruin Crab, unless it's also dealing combat damage (like Merfolk Windrobber), and no "boundless" mill effects, by which I just mean cards that can mill any number of cards, like Stream of Thought and Increasing Confusion.

2) Maintain a high density of pay-offs, because that's the actually fun part.

3) Avoid totally blank cards: Tome Scour would be a great T1 play for the Insanity pack, but it's a dead draw if you've already achieved enough mill, or if you don't have any mill pay-off cards. This was the problem with the Dragon's Approach pack, the pack had 7 dead draws, and it wasn't until you had found 5 of them, that the pack got to do anything interesting.

So, being mindful of those goals, I've assembled the following list of potential inclusions to the pack to make it mill better.

Ipnu Rivulet: Slam dunk for the pack imo

Merfolk Secretkeeper // Venture Deeper: mill 4 is a decent number, and even if you aren't excited about the mill, a 0/4 blocker isn't great, but it's not totally useless.

Thought Scour: I would consider drawing a card better than an 0/4 body, but mill 2 isn't a lot.

Shriekgeist: I could see this replacing the Merfolk Windrobbers as they will mill the opponent faster, but that kind of goes against #2, the Merfolk Windrobbers are neat because they are both enablers and pay-offs.

Vessel of Paramnesia: it's like a Thought Scour that instead mills 3, but costs 3 times as much. It's a pretty terrible rate, but it is split up, and efficiency isn't paramount in a format like this (though I have been impressed with how quickly the more aggressive decks can bring the hurt).

Wall of Lost Thoughts: It's like Merfolk Secretkeeper // Venture Deeper if both parts were stapled together, it's obviously a worse card, but I would like to keep card complexity down where possible in these packs.

Fractured Sanity: I wish their was a card that only had the cycling option. 2 MV instant that mills 4 and cantrips is kind of perfect, but mill 14 trivially accomplishes the SideQuest all on its own, which may move the needle too far in the other direction, and if I included multiple copies, getting the opportunity to cast 2 or more would probably make decking your opponent very feasible as the decks are only 40 cards.

So after putting all the available options together in a digital decklist and staring at it for a long time, I eventually came up with this:
Insanity
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Ultimately, I only added 3 mill cards: 2 Wall of Lost Thoughts, and 1 Ipnu Rivulet, and one of the cards I replaced (Disturbing Conversion) was already a mill card, just didn't mill as much. However, these packs are tiny, and the entire deck you play with is only 40 cards, so I've found these small changes to be much more impactful then your experience with a 60 card format (let alone 99) might suggest.

So I'm hopeful that this will be all the pack needs, if this still isn't enough, the next change would probably be a second Ipnu Rivulet and if that still isn't enough, probably cutting the Expedition Lookouts altogether to make room for more mill.

I did go with the Wall of Lost Thoughts over the Merfolk Secretkeeper // Venture Deeper simply as a nod to simplicity, I just can't imagine the two cards being too different in the majority of cases.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Made a Formidable pack:
Formidable (formidable)
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Dragon Whisperer being double red is unfortunate, the fixing in these packs isn't all that great, but I suspect it's a pretty strong card in this format, so I guess it balances out.

Kargan Intimidator is kind of nuts in this pack, it's a strong card at face value, it provides 3 power for formidable that can be buffed up to 4, and their are a lot of other warriors in the pack, so theirs even a little tribal synergy their.

I know I was just talking about intentionally avoiding using adventure cards in my previous pack, but in that situation, their was a nearly identical card that wasn't an adventure. Here, Bonecrusher Giant // Stomp is perfect as it provides the deck with some much-needed removal, while also being a 4 power body to help achieve formidable.



Making packs is getting harder and harder as I scoop up all the easy ideas. If you think about it, there's only so many zones/resources to interact with:

I've the board in both the party mechanic and this formidable pack

I've got your opponent's graveyard in the mill pack

I've got your graveyard in the delirium and spelleater packs

I've got non-creature permanents in the metalcraft and lands packs.

I've got your life total in the vitality pack

I've got your opponent's life total in the bloodlust pack

I've even got a poison counter pack.

Listing the zones/resources out like that, I can develop a theoretical list of zones/resources I'm not interacting with.

Your opponents board: maybe there's something cheeky that could be made with Harmless Offering but I'd need to find something that's fun, a combo that never comes together and/or immediately ends the game would be no fun.

a theme that cares about your enchantments or your planeswalkers could be made, but, generally, these effects only care that you have 1, where I like the packs to have a little bit of build-up before you get to the pay-off. Kamigawa did print a couple cards that care about you owning both an artifact AND an enchantment, but there is only a few, and they have a pretty high MV overall.

Theoretically, their could be a pack where you want to give YOURSELF poison counters, but as far as I know, their aren't any pay-offs for that.

Having cards in exile is another potential pack, but the only payoffs that I know of are Dreadlight Monstrosity, which is only one card, too high MV, and trivially easy to accomplish by the time you are looking to cast and activate this thing, and the Misthollow Griffin and co. I actually tried making a pack around Misthollow Griffin, but it didn't work very well, there's not really enough removal to make the recursion worthwhile (especially when you need to get it from your gy to exile in the first place). Force of Will is too expensive to put in the pack, and Force of Negation is actually a pretty bad card in such a creature-dense format.

Finally, we have cards in your opponent's exile. This actually might be possible, as putting your opponent's cards from exile back into their GY is a recurring mechanic for the Eldrazi, I wish utilizing the ability wasn't so anti-linear, but it might turn out well.

So, I think it's pretty clear that these very narrow packs have a pretty shallow pool, and I've just about drained it. The Harmless Offering and Eldrazi packs might be worth pursueing, but unless their is a whole new angle that I haven't considered, their isn't a lot else to do with this kind of SideQuest.

Fortunately, that's not the only way to build a SideQuest, the Bogbrew Witch and Doomed Necromancer decks are more like a combo deck, and their are an uncountable number of options when you introduce multi-card synergies. It is pretty difficult to find a good combo though, it needs to be attainable and strong, but not game ending. I'm considering the Cauldron Familiar and Witch's Oven combo, but need more Ideas like that.

Especially in blue, I've found a 3rd pack that I like in every color but blue. Green, for some reason, has been very easy to cover.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 3 months ago

That looks like a fantastic idea! Don't get me tempted, I just started my Tiny Leaders Duel Decks project.

What dou you think about battles? They are a kind of minigame in themselves.

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Post by JayDomK » 3 months ago

cheonice wrote:
3 months ago
That looks like a fantastic idea! Don't get me tempted, I just started my Tiny Leaders Duel Decks project.

What dou you think about battles? They are a kind of minigame in themselves.
Tiny Leaders Duel Decks? Hmm, intriguing. Are there details somewhere?

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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 3 months ago

JayDomK wrote:
3 months ago
cheonice wrote:
3 months ago
That looks like a fantastic idea! Don't get me tempted, I just started my Tiny Leaders Duel Decks project.

What dou you think about battles? They are a kind of minigame in themselves.
Tiny Leaders Duel Decks? Hmm, intriguing. Are there details somewhere?
Yes! It's a personal project to scratch my deckbuilding itch. I have a thread over at the Commander forums and linked it in my signature. You can find all the details here: Tiny Leaders Duel Decks.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Yo! This project is finally getting some attention!
cheonice wrote:
3 months ago
That looks like a fantastic idea! Don't get me tempted, I just started my Tiny Leaders Duel Decks project.

What do you think about battles? They are a kind of minigame in themselves.
Battles are a great minigame. I kind of want to avoid double-sided cards for this project though. A lot of these cards are obscure, so I expect people will be reading a lot of these cards for the first time when playing the deck. Doublefaced cards aren't great for that, you kind of have to already have the backs memorized. Even worse, I hope to play this cube with new players, and I feel Doublefaced cards are a bit too much to dump on a new player. In my experience, new players can usually figure a lot of stuff out by just reading their cards but, again, reading the back of Double-faced cards is clunky and loudly announces to your opponent what is in your hand.

Having said that, some of the coolest mini-game mechanics out their are dual-faced cards. As you mentioned, battles are a great option, and their are a million transform cards that are somewhat difficult to transform, but provide a hefty payoff when you do. Perhaps most compelling, I could make a couple Meld packages, which would be awesome. So I'm still on the fence about them.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!

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cheonice
Death to Chronos.
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Post by cheonice » 3 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 months ago
Yo! This project is finally getting some attention!
cheonice wrote:
3 months ago
That looks like a fantastic idea! Don't get me tempted, I just started my Tiny Leaders Duel Decks project.

What do you think about battles? They are a kind of minigame in themselves.
Battles are a great minigame. I kind of want to avoid double-sided cards for this project though. A lot of these cards are obscure, so I expect people will be reading a lot of these cards for the first time when playing the deck. Doublefaced cards aren't great for that, you kind of have to already have the backs memorized. Even worse, I hope to play this cube with new players, and I feel Doublefaced cards are a bit too much to dump on a new player. In my experience, new players can usually figure a lot of stuff out by just reading their cards but, again, reading the back of Double-faced cards is clunky and loudly announces to your opponent what is in your hand.

Having said that, some of the coolest mini-game mechanics out their are dual-faced cards. As you mentioned, battles are a great option, and their are a million transform cards that are somewhat difficult to transform, but provide a hefty payoff when you do. Perhaps most compelling, I could make a couple Meld packages, which would be awesome. So I'm still on the fence about them.
Yep, that's why I'm shying away from double-faced cards and Battles in my BattleBox. I like that these projects are somewhat self-contained and boardgame-y. I played a few rounds with my wife, who doesn't play Magic, and it worked quite good.

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Post by JayDomK » 3 months ago

cheonice wrote:
3 months ago

Yes! It's a personal project to scratch my deckbuilding itch. I have a thread over at the Commander forums and linked it in my signature. You can find all the details here: Tiny Leaders Duel Decks.
Ok, thanks, going to look :)

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Post by JayDomK » 3 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 months ago

Battles are a great minigame. I kind of want to avoid double-sided cards for this project though. A lot of these cards are obscure, so I expect people will be reading a lot of these cards for the first time when playing the deck. Doublefaced cards aren't great for that, you kind of have to already have the backs memorized. Even worse, I hope to play this cube with new players, and I feel Doublefaced cards are a bit too much to dump on a new player. In my experience, new players can usually figure a lot of stuff out by just reading their cards but, again, reading the back of Double-faced cards is clunky and loudly announces to your opponent what is in your hand.
Perhaps this is a significant disadvantage.

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