Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

[clingring]

Great spot, I totally missed Fell Horseman but he seems like a slam dunk for Grenzo. I'm also not sure what to cut though...

EDIT: I also somehow completely missed the existence of Murderous Rider, but that seems even better than Fell Horseman. Not sure I want both though. I'd be curious to hear what others' experiences have been with that card.

[codebaboon]

Wow yeah, how did I never notice the return to bottom text on Murderous Rider? It looks like there was a little discussion about him a few years back in this very thread as well. Probably a better choice over Fell Horseman since removal is generally going to be better than recurring a creature to hand. I might give one of them at least a try, though I still need to figure out what I might replace.

[JBdnr]

Hi! Has anybody done any testing with Agatha's Soul Cauldron?

I haven't drawn it yet, but I feel it does so many little things that it might be worth it.
It is incidental graveyard hate, it can make Grenzo cheaper later in the game, Grenzo always has a counter on it, so immediately you you have 2 creatures that can activate as: Kiki-Jiki, Epitaph Golem, Treasonous Ogre, every mana dork, every sac outlet, Soldevi Adnate or Szeras, etc.

[clingring]

Hi! Has anybody done any testing with Agatha's Soul Cauldron?

I haven't just because it's expensive at the moment -- how have you found it in the past week?

[posuwamna]

Heads up new Dalek Drone is an absolute slam dunk for Grenzo. Spot removal that can be recurred with digger loop as a potential win con. Actually insane. Instantly outclasses Maw and Chupacabra, probably the best creature spot removal in the deck now.

[Dunadain]

Heads up new Dalek Drone is an absolute slam dunk for Grenzo. Spot removal that can be recurred with digger loop as a potential win con. Actually insane. Instantly outclasses Maw and Chupacabra, probably the best creature spot removal in the deck now.

Not to rain on your parade, but Dalek Drone is only a win condition for an infinite combo if your opponents all have lifetotal/3 or more creatures (or they have an indestructible creature). If there's nothing to target, you can't make the opponent lose life.

Still good most likely, will still be able to kill your opponents sometimes, and even when it doesn't Plague Wind every turn, while also causing a pretty significant amount of life-loss is pretty great.

[clingring]

Red alert... Hoverstone Pilgrim. Seems like a slam dunk to me -- the question is does this replace Reito Sentinel and sit alongside Epitaph Golem, or do I want 3 of this effect in the deck?

[JBdnr]

I replaced Reito Sentinel. One extra mana was always really felt for that one. I will also be trying Threefold Thunderhulk. Flipped on end step, that's 7 bodies on 1 card on the next attack. Soldevi Adnate and Illuminor Szeras sacrifice it for 7 mana, and Marionette Master probably just kills people with it and an outlet.

[crowned]

I really like these new cards. Thunderhulk and Pilgrim can be tutored by Imperial Recruiter, which is great!
As a second Epitaph Golem aka Hoverstone Pilgrim I really want to make the case for Junktroller:

• He is also a tutor target for Recruiter
• He can be an engine with Thornbite Staff, which is still one of my secondary wincons. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

As for Illuminor Szeras, he feels a bit awkward as his cmc of 3 is too high for me and can't sacrifice himself.

This is my current decklist

[Gribbet]

I think Ixalan got us quite a few interesting cards.

Hoverstone Pilgrim and Threefold Thunderhulk have already been mentioned. I think anything that brings multiple extra bodies can be good, I'm interested in also trying Synapse Necromage. Greedy Freebooter gives us treasure and a scry on death, both exactly what we look for. Skeleton Crew is like Desecrated Tomb with a body.

[snowfox54119]

I agree that Hoverstone Pilgrim and Threefold Thunderhulk seem like easy potential inludes.

Hoverstone in particular is amazing as he replaces Reito Sentinel/Reito Lantern with a much better activation cost.

Skeleton Crew is interesting and for sure is a slam dunk replacement for those running Desecrated Tomb. I just never played that card before, so I'll have to test out the Crew to feel if I like it. If it's been a house for any of you though, let me know.

As for Murderous Rider // Swift End and Fell Horseman // Deathly Ride , they don't really do much other than flipping themselves automatically to the bottom. And while that can be good if you have an Ashnod's up, it seems also likely that you could get locked out in a bad way after a board wipe where you have to cast Grenzo and then flip to just get past this guy and then get to something relevant. Once again, I'm open to being wrong about it, but it's lack of immediate impact or pushing the goal of more flips kind of leaves me unexcited.

[clingring]

I've ultimately concluded the same thing as you about Murderous Rider and Fell Horseman -- they just aren't impactful enough to make the cut. I'm verging on the same conclusion regarding Reckless Barbarian/Priest of Urabrask/Priest of Gix, but I think Barbarian at least has enough going for it to be worthwhile.

I just added in Hoverstone, Thunderhulk, and Skeleton Crew and will report back once I've had a few games where each of them show up.

One thing I'm struggling with right now is how many aristocrat payoffs to include in my list between Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, and Mayhem Devil, and in what order they should be prioritized. I'm currently only running Mayhem Devil, but I'm wondering if I should make room for one of the other two somehow. I'd be curious to hear anyone's thoughts on this.

[snowfox54119]

Hey all, here are some changes that I'm making to the list. Some of these are for sure overdue (sorry about my absences) and some of them were hard to make but I do think are helpful in the long run.

OUT:

• Faceless Butcher - Replaced by a better creature removal that can also function as a controlled boardwipe.
  Mad Auntie - Replaced with another goblin protection card that is quicker to the punch and doesn't require haste to save Grenzo in a pinch
  Priest of Urabrask- It's been here since the beginning, but I do agree with you all that it's replacement is much stronger.
  Whisper, Blood Liturgist - Replaced by a much better recursion piece that isn't nearly as slow and demanding.

IN:

• Body Launderer - Direct replacement for Whisper since he can act as recursion piece, but can also filter which can help us find more lands in hand if necessary.
  Reckless Barbarian - Replaces Priest as an on demand mana activation that we can save for a much better point in time.
  Goblin Chirurgeon - On demand sac to regenerate a goblin. It can immediately sac itself or it can even act as a sac outlet when necessary to get death triggers.
  Primaris Eliminator - It doesn't exile like Faceless Butcher does, but it's more versatile by also being a mini focused boardwipe when needed. Get a limited digger loop under it, and all of your opponents boards could be emptied.

Edit: I'm still trying to figure out what to take out to place in Hoverstone Pilgrim. It's a definite include, I'm just trying to decide what's worth cutting for it. As much as it pains me, I'm looking at Furystoke Giant as a potential replacement.


I will be updating my official primer soon with all the new changes I've made. Thanks again to all you fellow dungeoneers. Coming back to this thread and seeing the community has been such a highlight for me after how busy and difficult real life has been. You guys are awesome!

[clingring]

I will be updating my official primer soon with all the new changes I've made. Thanks again to all you fellow dungeoneers. Coming back to this thread and seeing the community has been such a highlight for me after how busy and difficult real life has been. You guys are awesome!

Really looking forward to seeing your up-to-date list! Mine has evolved a lot from the primer as it currently stands, so I'm eager to compare where I'm at now with your current list and have some of my decisions challenged.

[snowfox54119]

Just updated the decklist! A few things to note that changed from my initial changes I posted earlier.

1. I decided to keep Priest of Urabrask. He himself can be an amazing combo piece with all the pieces of the digger loop in place as he's an immediate infinite mana generator. And at worst, he's a flip that gets you 1 extra mana. It may not always matter, but it definitely can 50% of the time and I'd rather have more mana pieces than less.

2. I also switched out Duplicant instead of Faceless Butcher due to FB also being an extremely powerful protection piece if he's flipped on the stack in response to a board wipe. I explain this interaction already in the primer, but I'd rather have the flexibility of protection there than a slightly stronger exile effect (and that's all Duplicant is really good for).


All the cards that were removed were placed in the alternate picks list as they're still amazing cards that can be ran. Let me know if you have any questions, disagreements, or threats regarding the updated list! And keep flipping, friends.

[clingring]

Thanks for the updated list snowfox. I think all your changes make perfect sense. My main question right now is why you've stuck with Zulaport Cutthroat over Blood Artist and/or Mayhem Devil — any thoughts on them?

[snowfox54119]

Thanks for the updated list snowfox. I think all your changes make perfect sense. My main question right now is why you've stuck with Zulaport Cutthroat over Blood Artist and/or Mayhem Devil — any thoughts on them?

Zulaport is the best of the bunch for a couple of reasons.

1. It hits every player at the same time, so it requires less deaths to do more damage.

2. It causes life loss instead of damage which in almost all cases is superior (win over Mayhem Devil )

3. Because it hits every player, it can get past protection that would usually prevent targeting of the player.

For all those reasons, I would always take Zulaport over any other creature of a similar effect. You can run any of the others you listed if you'd like more effects in the list, cause they each have their own benefits (Blood Artist seeing any creature death and Mayhem Devil seeing any sacrifice); but I feel 1 is the right amount for this list. He usually isn't that helpful unless I already have a bigger board state, so I usually don't want him (or his ilk) early and would rather build up a board state and then find him as a game ender to an infinite digger loop (or just a huge board of creatures). Hope that makes sense!


EDIT: Mayhem Devil also has the added bonus of being able to target creatures. So it's pretty great as an additional control piece. But I still stand by the fact that damage is much more preventable than life loss which is why I prefer Zulaport.

[Hitman]

Hey! Love this primer. I had some suggestions for cards.

I think that The Grey Havens as well as Crystal Grotto are strictly better options then Zhalfirin Void

Urza's Saga has been a powerhouse in my list enabling a turn three Grenzo by tapping in response and then putting a sol ring for my first flip. Late game it can also tutor for a Tel-Jilad Stylus which is always useful.

Rionya, Fire Dancer has also been a surprising addition, making at least one token of a creature with haste can't be underestimated. It has helped me win mutiple games.

[XamIllustration]

Thanks for the updated list snowfox. I think all your changes make perfect sense. My main question right now is why you've stuck with Zulaport Cutthroat over Blood Artist and/or Mayhem Devil — any thoughts on them?

Zulaport is the best of the bunch for a couple of reasons.

1. It hits every player at the same time, so it requires less deaths to do more damage.

2. It causes life loss instead of damage which in almost all cases is superior (win over Mayhem Devil )

3. Because it hits every player, it can get past protection that would usually prevent targeting of the player.

For all those reasons, I would always take Zulaport over any other creature of a similar effect. You can run any of the others you listed if you'd like more effects in the list, cause they each have their own benefits (Blood Artist seeing any creature death and Mayhem Devil seeing any sacrifice); but I feel 1 is the right amount for this list. He usually isn't that helpful unless I already have a bigger board state, so I usually don't want him (or his ilk) early and would rather build up a board state and then find him as a game ender to an infinite digger loop (or just a huge board of creatures). Hope that makes sense!


EDIT: Mayhem Devil also has the added bonus of being able to target creatures. So it's pretty great as an additional control piece. But I still stand by the fact that damage is much more preventable than life loss which is why I prefer Zulaport.

I totally agree, ZulaPort is better. I won a game a few weeks back, The opposing player and I were the last to go after the other two were knocked out. He had a creature or enchantment that prevented noncombat damage, but I did the Marionette or Zulaport combo to knock him out (I can't remember which). Later on, we chatted a bit he realised something, so that he protested that his card would have prevented that damage. But I told him its life lost not damage. He admitted that was right and we know reading the card explains the win con... I know there are a lot of combat and non-combat damage preventers. It's better to have something to bypass that problem. Alway have a back-up plan.

[Amatsu666]

Hey, is the goblins list by oldmangrieves updated ?

Trying to get a good goblin tribal list going on, specialy because my lgs does Tribal nights, if anyone has experience playing Grenzo like that would be lovely to get some pointers or a deck list itself.

Thanks everyone, keep gambling

[oldmangrieves]

Howdy howdy Amatsu, I have made a few changes since the initial posting, I keep an updated Moxfield list but I am not sure if I can post the link here(is that against the rules?). Anyway, here it is:

Grenzo's Prison Parade

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (TSR) 378

1 Ardoz, Cobbler of War (J22) 29

1 Arid Mesa (MM3) 229

1 Ashnod's Altar (6ED) 274

1 Badlands (3ED) 282

1 Beetleback Chief (PLST) PCA-40

1 Blood Crypt (RNA) 245

1 Bloodstained Mire (KTK) 230

1 Boggart Harbinger (LRW) 102

1 Cavern of Souls (UMA) 237

1 Chainer, Nightmare Adept (MH2) 289

1 Chrome Mox (EMA) 219

1 Command Tower (ELD) 333

1 Conspicuous Snoop (M21) 364

1 Dark Confidant (RAV) 81

1 Dockside Extortionist (C19) 24

1 Dragonskull Summit (M11) 223

1 Epitaph Golem (M21) 230

1 Frogtosser Banneret (MOR) 64

1 Gemstone Caverns (TSP) 274

1 Goblin Chieftain (M11) 141

1 Goblin Chirurgeon (ME1) 94

1 Goblin Cratermaker (GRN) 103

1 Goblin Engineer (TSR) 345

1 Goblin King (4ED) 198

1 Goblin Lackey (USG) 190

1 Goblin Matron (USG) 191

1 Goblin Recruiter (VIS) 80

1 Goblin Sharpshooter (ONS) 207

1 Goblin Trashmaster (SLD) 317

1 Goblin Warchief (SCG) 97

1 Goblin Welder (CM2) 101

1 Goblin Wizard (ME1) 97

1 Goro-Goro, Disciple of Ryusei (NEO) 145

1 Graven Cairns (FUT) 175

1 Great Furnace (PLST) C18-250

1 Heartstone (STH) 134

1 Hobgoblin Bandit Lord (AFR) 147

1 Hoverstone Pilgrim (LCI) 254

1 Imperial Recruiter (2XM) 131

1 Iron Myr (SOM) 168

1 Judith, the Scourge Diva (RNA) 185

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (TSR) 346

1 Krenko, Mob Boss (PLST) DDT-52

1 Leaden Myr (SOM) 170

1 Luxury Suite (BBD) 82

1 Mad Auntie (MMA) 90

1 Mana Echoes (ONS) 218

1 Manakin (TMP) 296

1 Marsh Flats (MM3) 239

1 Metallic Mimic (SLD) 194

1 Mogg Fanatic (PLST) DD1-44

1 Mogg War Marshal (TSP) 170

1 Moggcatcher (NEM) 96

5 Mountain (P02) 162

1 Murderous Redcap (UMA) 217

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (THS) 223

1 Ornithopter of Paradise (MH2) 430

1 Overeager Apprentice (DDC) 35

1 Palladium Myr (PLST) CM2-207

1 Pashalik Mons (DMR) 328

1 Path of Ancestry (PZ2) 65679

1 Pawn of Ulamog (ROE) 122

1 Phyrexian Tower (UMA) 248

1 Pitiless Plunderer (RIX) 81

1 Polluted Delta (KTK) 239

1 Priest of Gix (USG) 150

1 Priest of Urabrask (PDCI) 74

1 Prismatic Vista (MH1) 244

1 Prowling Geistcatcher (MIC) 21

1 Rakdos Carnarium (C19) 266

1 Reckless Barbarian (CLB) 193

1 Scalding Tarn (MM3) 244

1 Siege-Gang Commander (DMR) 436

1 Skirk Prospector (ONS) 230

1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant (MH1) 108

1 Sol Ring (3ED) 274

1 Soldevi Adnate (ALL) 60b

1 Sulfurous Springs (ICE) 360

3 Swamp (P02) 158

1 Tel-Jilad Stylus (MRD) 260

1 The Grey Havens (LTR) 255

1 Treasonous Ogre (PZ2) 65779

1 Treasure Nabber (PZ2) 70653

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (M15) 248

1 Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge (ZNR) 174

1 Vault of Whispers (MRD) 286

1 Verdant Catacombs (MM3) 249

1 Viscera Seer (C13) 99

1 Warteye Witch (PLST) MH1-115

1 Woe Strider (PTHB) 123p

1 Wooded Foothills (KTK) 249

1 Workhorse (EXO) 142

1 Zulaport Cutthroat (A25) 117

Approximate Total Cost:

It usually snowballs into infinite or nigh infinite grenzo activations but I can get a Goblin swarm pretty easily. Not too many new cards are striking my fancy as Wizards seems hellbent on 3+ power goblins these days.

[Toshi]

Hoverstone Pilgrim has been great so far - getting its effect for a mere 2 mana in Tomb Trawler is absurd!
I love them with Priest of Gix/Priest of Urabrask and a free sac outlet.

[snowfox54119]

Tomb Trawler is an amazing addition to the deck. I'm considering taking out The Cauldron of Eternity for this as it increases creature density and, while it's not as powerful, it does fulfill a similar role in the deck. If not Cauldron, Epitaph Golem would be the other replacement option as both Hoverstone Pilgrim and Tomb Trawler can be hit by an unbuffed Grenzo (which is way more safer when available).

[Cobalt32]

Hey snowfox, I just want to say thank you for all the work you've put into this list. Grenzo is the most fun commander I've ever played with and I've followed your decklist since back on mtgsalvation. All the updates have been excellent and I appreciate that you've kept coming back through everything life has thrown at you. So again, a sincere thank you from a fellow player.

[snowfox54119]

Hey snowfox, I just want to say thank you for all the work you've put into this list. Grenzo is the most fun commander I've ever played with and I've followed your decklist since back on mtgsalvation. All the updates have been excellent and I appreciate that you've kept coming back through everything life has thrown at you. So again, a sincere thank you from a fellow player.

Thanks so much, Cobalt32! That means a ton and I really appreciate you saying that. Thanks for being a fellow dungeoneer with me