Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

[ISBPathfinder]

@SaintForthigan Thanks!

My switch to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician from Jenara, Asura of War was motivated by a few things. Off the top of my head:

• It came to a point where Jenara wins were getting rarer and rarer, as people in my group were ready for me to go for a pumped Jenara win later in the game and often had an answer.
• Beyond the ability to beat face, Jenara just didn't offer much utility.
• Derevi allows for huge mana advantages, pseudo-vigilance, tap/untap shenanigans, surprise blocks, surprise taps (especially useful against a frend's Thraximundar deck), etc etc.
• Derevi's combat trigger ability pairs very nicely with a deck full of a lot of 1 and 2 power creatures that I usually don't mind throwing away.
• If you aggressively tutor for Birthing Pod, having constant access to a 3 CMC creature to Pod away without stacking up obscene commander tax is lovely.

Overall, I've definitely been happier with Derevi than I was with Jenara. I do occasionally miss the ability to beat down with her, but the trade-off is easily worth it to me. I totally get what you're saying about not necessarily having a good use for the extra mana you can produce, but it just might be a matter of needing to play a few more mana sinks, or tutor for the mana sinks you do have more aggressively. I usually find a good use for all the extra untaps, even if it's just as simple as multiple uses of Gavony Township per turn cycle.

Jumping back to this real quick, Jenara was in my own opinion much stronger as a commander back when commander tuck was a thing. Jenara didn't require her deck to be built around her at all so she was a standalone wincon so if she was tucked, none of your deck was really dead draws and likewise a win from the deck didn't require her. When tuck was a thing, blue and white had probably the best selection of tuck effects so we got to run a LOT of tuck and our access to green also let us toolbox and pull her out of tuck if we wanted.

The loss of commander tuck was a healthy thing for this format, but it was probably also a bad thing for Jenara, Asura of War as a commander. It was one of the better commanders to use tuck with and it was weaker against her.

I didn't mean to hijack I just thought I would contribute my own $0.02 to the matter. I was on the decline of playing my Jenara when the tuck change happened and in retrospect I can see how much that might have hurt her.

[ZenN]

Jumping back to this real quick, Jenara was in my own opinion much stronger as a commander back when commander tuck was a thing. Jenara didn't require her deck to be built around her at all so she was a standalone wincon so if she was tucked, none of your deck was really dead draws and likewise a win from the deck didn't require her. When tuck was a thing, blue and white had probably the best selection of tuck effects so we got to run a LOT of tuck and our access to green also let us toolbox and pull her out of tuck if we wanted.

The loss of commander tuck was a healthy thing for this format, but it was probably also a bad thing for Jenara, Asura of War as a commander. It was one of the better commanders to use tuck with and it was weaker against her.

I didn't mean to hijack I just thought I would contribute my own $0.02 to the matter. I was on the decline of playing my Jenara when the tuck change happened and in retrospect I can see how much that might have hurt her.

I hadn't really directly considered that the tuck rule change might have weakened Jenara, Asura of War as a commander, along with other similar more stand-alone legends. It was certainly nice back then to be able to Bant Charm or Hinder or whatever and put away their built-around commander while not really caring if Jenara herself got tucked. So, while not a direct power change, there was a general increase in power of built-around commanders, which had the side-effect of making stand-alone commanders a little worse.

That said, even if you could still tuck commanders today, I feel like I'd rarely care if Derevi, Empyrial Tactician were to be tucked. I've got a handful of cards here that get way better when I've got Derevi on the table, but none that are bad without her. Things like Mana Vault, Utopia Sprawl, and Bloom Tender are still very strong cards played in tons of decks. They just get way better when you've got ready access to untap triggers.

[Kitsune_18]

What are all your thoughts on Thrasios, Triton Hero as a mana sink for card advantage/potential ramp? I often find myself wanting an instant speed mana sink, especially while untapping Bloom Tender or Faeburrow Elder during combat. The price tag is a little prohibitive, but I'm thinking about proxying it to see if it would be worth it.

[ZenN]

What are all your thoughts on Thrasios, Triton Hero as a mana sink for card advantage/potential ramp? I often find myself wanting an instant speed mana sink, especially while untapping Bloom Tender or Faeburrow Elder during combat. The price tag is a little prohibitive, but I'm thinking about proxying it to see if it would be worth it.

I feel like if I were going to add something just to be a mana sink, I'd want something with more synergy and/or that has an ability that costs <= 3 to play nice with the mana off Bloom Tender and Faeburrow Elder. I often dump extra mana into Eldrazi Displacer (though better with Mana Vault, because C). I also often use my extra mana/untaps on Mirror Entity and Gavony Township, because sometimes I just want to go aggro.

You could play Emiel the Blessed (though definitely don't pay his current price tag...). I'm not sure if you're playing Deadeye Navigator, but obviously that's a ridiculous mana sink, and Deadeye + Derevi + Bloom/Faeburrow gives you infinite GW. Though 6 drop, and we've talked before about his lightning rod aspect.

Mastery of the Unseen could be a cool mana sink. Same 2 to cast and 4 to activate as Thrasios, but the ability synergizes very well with the blink theme. I'm not sure how strong it would end up being, but if you're looking specifically for a mana sink it could be a neat option.

[ZenN]

Oh, also, for a potential mana sink, someone else (@Mr_Webman I think?) was running Urza, Lord High Artificer in their list. Decent ETB ability and a strong activated ability for a mana sink is pretty cool.

[Mr_Webman]

Sorry I haven't responded in so long, I completely forgot and life has been crazy for me in the past week.

Urza, Lord High Artificer has been a great card for me. He's never bad, and at his worst he's basically another Solemn Simulacrum if I don't have any other artifacts in play. However out of nowhere he can win the game on his own with his activated ability (like with a Gaea's Cradle for example), and he's one of my favorite targets with the Reveillark + Mirror Entity loop. He's just a really solid card that I'm never unhappy to see.

To start another discussion, how many board wipes do you guys run? Is a lot of it meta-dependent? What do you guys think are the best ones?

[DeadPresident]

I think at maximum I used to run Supreme Verdict, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, and Tragic Arrogance at the same time, and for whatever reason I've never found myself searching for or needing them, so now I just keep Verdict in case. I will say, though, that there was a time everyone at my LGS played far more aggressive decks than me and I got a huge amount of use out of the Gearhulk, and I would highly recommend that or Tragic Arrogance as the first port of call for anyone considering board wipes to try out.

A small caveat; I run a lot of counters so perhaps I end up countering a lot of things that might necessitate a board wipe and that's why I don't run them. One wipe I'd love to try and run for a while is Austere Command, has anyone else had that in their lists at any point?

[Kitsune_18]

I recently upped my count of board wipes for meta reasons. I also swapped out Austere Command for Winds of Abandon after seeing it do work in a number of decks. I really liked that Austere Command sometimes let you wipe the board of 4 cmc creatures only (choosing artifacts or enchantments for the other mode), preserving not only Derevi, but a decent number of small creatures for guaranteed/easier Derevi triggers or alpha strikes. Winds can do a similar thing by exiling everyone else's creatures to clear the way for Derevi and friends. Although Winds can't hit artifacts or enchantments, its other mode as a worse Path to Exile is very relevant against decks that care about making their commander stick. My meta has shifted to a lot of mana dork/low cmc commanders so I wasn't getting as much mileage out of Austere Command, hence the experimental switch.

The other board wipes I'm currently running are Cyclonic Rift, Tragic Arrogance (replaced Supreme Verdict), and Ixidron (which I will occasionally swap out for Cataclysmic Gearhulk or Bane of Progress). I also decided to re-include Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, again for meta reasons. So that's 3 dedicated board wipes if you count Rift, and another 2 pseudo/situational board wipes (Elesh Norn, Winds).

[benjameenbear]

I've found that 3 board wipes have been a good count for myself. Between the tutor effects and spot removal counts combined with the Blink engines in the deck, I always feel that the battlefield is manageable at any given state.

Granted, I'm running a 4 color Golos deck but it has the same core strategy as this thread.

[ZenN]

Yeah, I've run Cataclysmic Gearhulk in the past, and for a while had Supreme Verdict before Tragic Arrogance became a thing.

Generally between Cyclonic Rift, Tragic Arrogance, and Angel of Serenity, I don't really find myself having issues with the board. Plus just mostly not caring about creature heavy boards since I just reset my life with Resolute Archangel so often.

Things for clearing the board of non-creatures are generally more appealing to me here, but if I did want one more creature wrath it would be Winds of Abandon. If I wanted one more thing for getting rid of non-creatures I'd probably consider reincluding the Gearhulk.

[ZenN]

Played a few games with this last night. Won one of the games in a way I've noticed the current version of the deck is pretty capable of pulling off.

T1: Land, Wild Growth
T2: Land, Faeburrow Elder
T3: Land, swing with Elder, play Derevi putting untap trigger on Elder, use 3 to cast Eldrazi Displacer, then flash in Venser, Shaper Savant on opponent's turn to delay their Hour of Promise
T4: Ancient Tomb, start bouncing multiple lands per opponent per turn cycle (thanks to untap triggers on Elder and Tomb)

One guy had no ground blockers, so my three non-flyers could get through easily, and Derevi was hitting the other, so 4 untap triggers per combat, plus tapping things initially, meant I could get could mana to bounce 5-6+ things per turn cycle (including an attempted answer or two). I was eating through my life quickly, but they scooped a couple turns later when I had a ton of mana and a good chunk of damage each combat and they were down to a couple lands each and mostly unable to stop me. Good times.

I'm really happy with Kogla, the Titan Ape in here so far. Thing is super strong. Also very happy with Cavalier of Dawn.

[Kitsune_18]

I'm glad to hear Kogla, the Titan Ape is working out for you! I haven't gotten to play since adding him in (my last 2 EDH nights have fallen through ), but prior to adding him, I'd seen him perform really well in my friend's Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy deck. I've had similar experiences to you with Cavalier of Dawn, though - card is great.

A while ago I bit the bullet and added Archaeomancer to the list. It performed really well despite it not being a very exciting card at first glance. So well in fact, that it has inspired me to try out Neoform in place of something like Eldritch Evolution with the idea of it being another great target for Spellseeker. Paired with Archaeomancer and a recursion creature at both 5 cmc and 6 cmc, it can lead to some pretty wacky lines. It's definitely not as flexible as Eldritch Evolution, but it seems comparable in power.

Speaking of Spellseeker, I can't believe you haven't added it to you list yet! It's quickly become one of my favorite creatures to blink with Soulherder et al and one of the most flexible tutors in the deck. Though I will say that I do build around it a bit. I've mentioned in previous posts running Pull from Tomorrow over Sphinx's Revelation, Winds of Abandon over Austere Command, and Neoform above, but I think all of those cards would also be very playable on their own. Another card that fits in this category that I'm not convinced I necessarily need in the deck but is on my radar is Heliod's Intervention.

The last thing I'd like to bring up for discussion is the card Coiling Oracle. I'll be the first to tell you that I had written that card off so many times over the last 8 years of playing commander. Once, I used to consider it a staple, then my opinion swung the other way completely and you couldn't pay me to put it into most decks. Well recently I went ahead and threw it into this deck, mainly because I felt I needed to have more cards I could play before turn 3, and I think I've been convinced. Maybe the landscape of commander has changed enough that it's come full circle, maybe our blink engines have just gotten better and it doesn't feel as dead later in the game. Whatever it is, any game that I played it turn 2 or even 3, it felt sooo good. It's a great blink target in the mid-game, and late-game, if nothing else, it effectively cycles and maybe ramps you! It is also a really great alternate in the Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Mirror Entity combo, simultaneously drawing your deck and ramping all your lands into paly untapped! Anyway, rant over.

[DeadPresident]

I think I've always played Coiling Oracle in my list, and I can definitely sympathize with occasional sentiments that it's a mediocre or even wasteful card - but on the whole I think I've enjoyed it a decent amount. I run a decent amount of cards that let me know what's on top of my library like Brainstorm/Sylvan Library and it ends up synergizing really well with those, so occasionally it's just a 2 mana cantrip I hope to Pod/Vannifar away but often enough it ends up being pseudo Nature's Lore and it's another body for things like Craterhoof to capitalize on.

There are definitely better cards but I like having it available, not least for options like the Lark/Guide combos you mentioned Kitsune. I haven't added Soulherder to my list yet (can't seem to track the thing down) but I imagine Coiling Oracle becomes even better with something like that and the new Thassa.

[ZenN]

I may not be running Coiling Oracle right now, but that's because I'm running both Ice-Fang Coatl and Risen Reef. Having a better selection of great flicker options added in the last few years (looking at you, Soulherder and Thassa, Deep-Dwelling) definitely makes these guys better.

I could easily see swapping Coiling Oracle in over Ice-Fang Coatl. I was originally going to play both, but ended up trying out Risen Reef instead. Turns out 4 other elementals and 3 clones is enough to make me happy with the Reef every time I've cast it.

[Jibsea]

Seaside Haven too cutesy? Its a great mana sink with a low opportunity cost, being a land, and another colorless source for the displacer.

Also draws your deck with infinite mana, though I think you mentioned not running infinites in your current deck.

[ZenN]

Seaside Haven too cutesy? Its a great mana sink with a low opportunity cost, being a land, and another colorless source for the displacer.

Also draws your deck with infinite mana, though I think you mentioned not running infinites in your current deck.

Oh, I've got several ways to go infinite, just not infinite mana currently. Seaside Haven would probably be fine. There are certainly plenty of times when I throw away Derevi for things like surprise chump blocks and such. Wouldn't be bad to have a way to sac her for a card before damage. If I do decide to add another colourless land, this one at least deserves consideration.

That said, as far as additional colourless lands go, I'm learning that Field of the Dead should almost always be on the list. I've been slowly adding to more and more of my decks. The opportunity cost is so low and the ceiling is so high, especially with a high count of fetch lands and things that tutor lands into play.

[benjameenbear]

Can confirm that Field of the Dead is absolutely wonderful for gumming up battlefields. It's often the 1st or 2nd land I tutor for with any land-tutor ability and being able to flicker lands to make surprise blockers via Ghostly Flicker has been really fun. I wouldn't play it in heavy 3 color decks that don't have the capability to tutor lands though. Sometimes not producing a color hurts pretty badly.

[Mr_Webman]

Whenever I go up against somebody who has Field of the Dead and I see the value they get out of it, I always think to myself "Wow I should really put that in my deck", and then I forget about it afterwards lol.

What would you swap out for it, if anything ZenN?

[ZenN]

What would you swap out for it, if anything ZenN?

Maybe one of the basics, since that would increase the odds of triggering Field of the Dead. But going below 7 basics doesn't feel super great, so probably a pain land. If I feel like I have enough colourless for Eldrazi Displacer (or if I were to cut him), it would easily just be whichever of the 2 colour pain lands I care least about. Otherwise maybe Mana Confluence if I actually wanted to go up in colourless sources.

I would also then split the basics into half and half of regular and snow-covered to maximize odds of triggering. Makes Ice-Fang Coatl slightly worse, but whatever.

[Jibsea]

If you include Field of the Dead don't forget to include some snow basics to up your chances of getting Field active.

Also, as someone who plays Reap in every green deck, i wholeheartedly support seeing more people playing Field of the Dead :laugh:

[ZenN]

If you include Field of the Dead don't forget to include some snow basics to up your chances of getting Field active.

Also, as someone who plays Reap in every green deck, i wholeheartedly support seeing more people playing Field of the Dead :laugh:

Well, it's actually the other way around for me, since I'm currently running all snow basics for Ice-Fang Coatl, but yes, definitely want to be splitting the basics. I mentioned that in my previous post.

Reap is cute, and the rising prevalence of Field of the Dead certainly would make it more reliable. As long as there's a single black permanent on the table it's already better than Regrowth, so that's sweet.

[ZenN]

Skyclave Apparition was recently spoiled and is the first thing in the new set to jump out at me as a maybe for this deck.

[Kitsune_18]

I do think Skyclave Apparition is interesting. I'm excited to try it out in my Emiel the Blessed blink deck for sure! Not sure if I can speculate about it's overall power in this deck, though.

One thing I find myself considering (especially during spoiler seasons) is what I consider to be the deck's flex slots. Either cards that might be more meta-dependent or that I consider to be just good enough that are the first things I look towards if I'm trying to find a home for a new card.

Cards like Ixidron (and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to a lesser extent) will rotate in and out of my deck depending on what my playgroup is trying to do. Other cards like Mulldrifter are not super powerful, but might have good synergies that put them over the edge. I'm also testing a handful of cards that are all new to the deck (Archaeomancer, Kogla, the Titan Ape, Winds of Abandon, Neoform) and I would consider them to be flex slots until they prove themselves.

What are some cards you all think of as flexible/cut-able in your own versions?

[ZenN]

I don't really think of things in terms of "flex slots", and I actually only rarely even look at things as direct replacements when making changes.

If a new card comes out that is just a straight better version or improvement over something I'm already playing, then yeah, it's a direct replacement. However, in general when I'm making changes, I instead just add whatever cards in the list and then re-examine the list as a whole.

So many cards in the deck (not just this deck, any deck) are generally playing multiple roles, or lend themselves to various synergies. When you replace one thing, it changes the relative values of other things in the deck. I could easily make a 1-to-1 comparison and swap between Risen Reef and Coiling Oracle, but if I were to swap out Reef for Oracle then suddenly the rest of my Elementals drop in value. This one is a minor example, but it's a nice clear one. Maybe if I swap out Reef for Oracle then I might decide that Cavalier of Dawn isn't worth it.

By just adding into the list and re-examine the whole, it forces me to reevaluate every card and how its value may shift. And its effect on the mana base. Usually I'll do this with several cards at a time. So I'll compile a short-list of things I'm considering for a deck, and then sit down with the list in front of me (usually on DeckStats, because I like it), and add in the whole short-list. Then I'll go through the list a few times and cut back down to 100. Sometimes the short-list cards don't make it, and sometimes I surprise myself in what other things I'm suddenly willing to cut.

[DeadPresident]

I'd say I approach it similarly to how Zen does, mostly because of my early experiences with EDH lists. One of the problems my early EDH decks would have was often that I didn't consider synergy enough and I would just pay attention to individual card power, and as a result my first two or three decks were just really bad and clunky and cards didn't seem to complement each other. I tend to mostly try and consider new additions in the context of the cards they're most likely to interact with (or cards I see my opponents play quite often, or could expect to see frequently) and try and analyze them on that basis.

But in terms of flexibility I think I break my decks down into certain functions (ramp, removal, threats, card draw, etc) and if one of those aspects seems really strong or has been performing quite well but another one is lagging I sometimes consider a cut from a strong aspect to add something into a weaker one.