Banlist update: 7 cards banned for offensive imagery/names

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Post by Aazadan » 4 years ago

Selaya wrote:
4 years ago
Gatherer (lol, people actually use that?) was made way later than Legends tho.
Right, but it's just referencing ID's that they would have used internally already, or it just referenced card creation order. Somewhere internally before Gatherer it would have already either had a number of 1488, or someone would have realized that card would be the 1488th created. Remember they still would have had internal databases.

It having that number on something public like that never would have been intended simply because the website didn't exist then, and probably wasn't even considered as something that would happen, but that doesn't mean it being the 1488th card wasn't 100% intentional.

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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
It's often my first clue someone is in the right these days when they get accused of virtue signalling.
Yeah most of the arguments against this I've seen so far are pretty wild:

"Wizards/Hasbro isn't a paragon of racial inequality so therefore any action they take to improve their image is just pandering and doesn't count!"

"What about X card? Or Y card? The line they drew was too arbitrary they shouldn't have drawn a line at all!"


I mean, people can complain about the corporate culture of Wizards as much as they like I guess, I guess I'm a little sad people are too caught up in the complaints to applaud the fact they acknowled and de-normalized the one card that deserved it the most.
I feel like you're addressing me directly with the bolded part, and constructing a straw man in the process. I asked where the line is because I truly want to know, not because it shouldn't exist. I definitely don't consider any of it arbitrary. I also brought up the original art for Triumph of Ferocity|Avacyn Restored, not to invalidate the action WotC is taking on these cards, but to highlight that MtG's history is full of questionable decisions, and not just in the realm of race. Should other cards be banned using similar criteria? Seriously, should they? We have the luxury of these seven cards being either prohibitively expensive, useless, or both,

Side note, does anyone remember Precinct Captain from Return to Ravnica? I remember being perturbed that the token it produced was both literally and figuratively the set's token black person. That was only eight years ago.

If your stance was in earnest then I apologize for misconstruing; I was also looking at various reddit threads at the time which were written in, let's say a little less than good faith for the sake of argument.

Also, having looked up a few other posts including that article being talked about at /r/mtgTCG (oooh no by linking it I've been blacklisted by wizards and will never be able to work for them or get any content I create signal boosted by them oops!), I'm going to have to shift my position a bit more heavily toward "It's a good start but they damn well better not drag their feet".

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I'm not a political person whatsoever, but everyone is weighing in on such a controversial topic and silence is not the weapon to brandish in these times, if one acknowledged that change is needed. If you're not political, kindly skip over this post.

I get the current events prompting wizards to make such a decision. I worry however, that the decision to shun these cards with racially motivated subject-matter is being spurred by the tragedy of George Floyd rather than a strong moral compass in their company. These are old cards, they've always been horribly offensive, and yet why wait until a national tragedy to accept responsibility and purge them when you could have done so years and years ago in a show of your own good faith. I'm deeply saddened at even the possibility that the creators of a game I love so dearly, would only take such action due to societal pressures following a tragedy and public riots.

I'm having a hard time processing it all, and am unsure if I'll even process things completely.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
1) I own an invoke prejudice, and I don't like that I can't play it anymore (Jihad and crusade are really the only other playable ones, and they're much more replaceable function-wise...also I don't own a jihad so I care a lot less about it, shrug).
I'd argue the bad decision was acquiring such a card in the first place, given the subject matter in question. Doubly so given the artist's stance. Ignorance of the card or an insistence on "playing the card for the effect" (of which I get) doesn't make up any justification for it. It's still racial propaganda and there has to be some line drawn between building the best deck you can, and remaining kosher to the play group you decide to enter. I wouldn't care if it were $1 or $1000, I'd never pick this card up. You lost money on this acquisition, and that's a shame. How much emotional scarring did any players that suffered through seeing this card across from them have to struggle to cope with? You're going to feel a sting now, but it's not near the sting those felt having to see it.

And fwiw (not that it matters I don't imagine) I'm Mexican-Irish on my mother's side. I'm not personally offended by the card, but my personal ethos is such that I'd never even consider such a thing. It's utterly disgusting. Yes all lives are precious by nature and should be treated equally, but right now Black Lives Matter because they are not receiving such equal treatment that every single body on this planet deserves to be treated with.
Sinis wrote:
4 years ago


I mean.
I really don't like the connotation of that tweet. It reeks of cancel culture. ban everything because it offends someone, somewhere, on the internet.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote: 1) I own an invoke prejudice, and I don't like that I can't play it anymore (Jihad and crusade are really the only other playable ones, and they're much more replaceable function-wise...also I don't own a jihad so I care a lot less about it, shrug).
I'd argue the bad decision was acquiring such a card in the first place, given the subject matter in question.
Purely pleading ignorance I guess, but I only ever looked at it as a very powerful stax effect for mono blue decks, as art has only recently been something I cared about at all on magic cards. I got mine specifically for Thassa, God of the Sea since its combination of UUUU mana cost and powerful creature hate worked well with my deck, which was mono blue enchantments.

I had heard people say stuff about the card previously but very nebulously. When someone pointed out to me that it was basically a klansman with an axe I was pretty surprised I had not noticed it. I think my reaction was like "wtf, aren't they ghosts?"

So all I can say is that I can certainly forgive people for liking the mechanic of an old reserved list card and not looking into it that deeply, it's a very easy thing to do from a position of privilege. I don't think it's excusable, but I think it's forgivable, if that makes sense?

At least I hope so since I did the same thing I presume Dirk did.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote: 1) I own an invoke prejudice, and I don't like that I can't play it anymore (Jihad and crusade are really the only other playable ones, and they're much more replaceable function-wise...also I don't own a jihad so I care a lot less about it, shrug).
I'd argue the bad decision was acquiring such a card in the first place, given the subject matter in question.
Purely pleading ignorance I guess, but I only ever looked at it as a very powerful stax effect for mono blue decks, as art has only recently been something I cared about at all on magic cards. I got mine specifically for Thassa, God of the Sea since its combination of UUUU mana cost and powerful creature hate worked well with my deck, which was mono blue enchantments.

I had heard people say stuff about the card previously but very nebulously. When someone pointed out to me that it was basically a klansman with an axe I was pretty surprised I had not noticed it. I think my reaction was like "wtf, aren't they ghosts?"

So all I can say is that I can certainly forgive people for liking the mechanic of an old reserved list card and not looking into it that deeply, it's a very easy thing to do from a position of privilege. I don't think it's excusable, but I think it's forgivable, if that makes sense?

At least I hope so since I did the same thing I presume Dirk did.
Certainly, it's a mistake and we as humans are going to make them, and certainly as humans we can forgive the lapse in judgment others' make even on such things, without it being excusable (because it's not a valid excuse at all). We can't forgive, if the issue is repeated because by then it's clearly a very deliberate move (and surely Dirk has not done it deliberately, or with malice), nor does he seem the type from my interactions with him.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
I worry however, that the decision to shun these cards with racially motivated subject-matter is being spurred by the tragedy of George Floyd rather than a strong moral compass in their company.
I agree with the rest of your post and just wanted to call this out because I am probably more so on the stance of "this is *definitely* not a decision made due to a strong moral compass". That is, there seems to be a number of things Wizards has done in the past that take away from the idea of an inclusive and diverse workplace which means this seems to fall under more of a business decision than a moral one.

That being said, I think it is still better to be right for the wrong reasons than to remain in the wrong. These cards are morally reprehensible for a number of reasons and change isn't enacted through sheer force or will or morality alone. Not in America anyway. As sad as it is to say, a lot of companies need a business justification to act morally. This might be it for Wizards.

These steps, as well as the cancelling of Cops, the defunding/restructuring of the Minneapolis Police Department, the resurgent outcry over racism in the NBA and NFl, etc. are all steps in the right direction. I think that some skepticism is still warranted over the "why" but the end result is still positive. Hopefully these moves in the right direction spur other companies into doing the same.

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Post by SocorroTortoise » 4 years ago

I also have a copy of Invoke Prejudice from many years ago. I don't know if I knew anything about the artist's views at the time and it was long enough ago that I don't recall what I did or didn't notice about the art. I picked it up because it was a powerful, unique effect from a mechanical standpoint and it was around the same time I was picking up a number of cards from that era (Jihad as well, incidentally).

These bannings feel like the bare minimum WotC can do and they don't really address the complaints that POC have had for a while now. If this is an initial step that's going to be followed by actual measures to address systemic problems at the company, great. If they don't do that, this is almost meaningless. I'd like to see more interaction with the people who are actually bringing this stuff up. I'm a white guy and from what I've seen of WotC staff, they largely are as well. My experience with the game isn't the same as what POC are describing, so my opinions on how to fix things are pretty much useless here. I'm hoping that WotC staff recognizes if they're in a similar position and reaches out to the people who are actually affected.

At the end of the day most of these cards can be interpreted as problematic in some way and I haven't played any of them for years. The cards being banned isn't any great loss, especially if it makes the environment more welcoming to a broader population.
rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
Seriously though, do our fantasy characters now have to be political correct? That would ruin the whole game. This game is kinda build on racewar. They might aswell just close down WotC...
Can you elaborate on the bolded? I've never had this impression and this is the first time I've seen this take.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
3drinks wrote:
4 years ago

I'd argue the bad decision was acquiring such a card in the first place, given the subject matter in question.
Purely pleading ignorance I guess, but I only ever looked at it as a very powerful stax effect for mono blue decks, as art has only recently been something I cared about at all on magic cards. I got mine specifically for Thassa, God of the Sea since its combination of UUUU mana cost and powerful creature hate worked well with my deck, which was mono blue enchantments.

I had heard people say stuff about the card previously but very nebulously. When someone pointed out to me that it was basically a klansman with an axe I was pretty surprised I had not noticed it. I think my reaction was like "wtf, aren't they ghosts?"

So all I can say is that I can certainly forgive people for liking the mechanic of an old reserved list card and not looking into it that deeply, it's a very easy thing to do from a position of privilege. I don't think it's excusable, but I think it's forgivable, if that makes sense?

At least I hope so since I did the same thing I presume Dirk did.
Certainly, it's a mistake and we as humans are going to make them, and certainly as humans we can forgive the lapse in judgment others' make even on such things, without it being excusable (because it's not a valid excuse at all). We can't forgive, if the issue is repeated because by then it's clearly a very deliberate move (and surely Dirk has not done it deliberately, or with malice), nor does he seem the type from my interactions with him.
I was under the impression that the KKK is a distinctly American embarrassment. Is their iconography generally all that known or recognized in other parts of the world? I'd think non-American players could be forgiven for not understanding the cultural significance to the image.
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

my biggest question in all of this is what is the end state or what is it hopefully going to look like?
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Post by Selaya » 4 years ago

(In case this wasn't obvious).
Censorship is stupid. These bans are stupid.
Especially the ones like Crusade which are a hell of a ?????. But even the most egregious one, Invoke Prejudice isn't, Barbra or not. This is just a cheap way of useless virtue signalling that helps exactly noone. (Not that I'd expect WotC to actually do something about their racist corporate culture because you know, that'd take actual effort. Actions speak louder than words.)

By this logic we should probably all travel to Rome and go demolish Saint Peter's Basilica because it was built in another, bygone time with and by means that we would now consider disgusting.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

I feel like every company out there is trying to take actions to show that they are involved in the current movement for change. I think that wizards approach here is kind of ludicrous.

The cards that are being discussed were literally from another time and place. They wouldn't make said cards with such wording / names / art these days but I think calling them out like this more brings them to light than if they had just not done anything about them and not printed such cards today.

To me, this is the equivalence of giving $100,000 to charity and then spending $1,000,000 telling everyone that you did so. Nobody was really stumbling over these 20 year old cards for the most part they don't see any play and trying to tie any sort of racism to most of these cards is an extreme stretch.
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Eesh, I get why dreadnought could bother people, but at the same time, this feels vaguely witch-hunty. No offense to witches, of course. But I never in a million years would have thought twice about that card. It's about people feeling welcome, as far as I can figure, and while I could imagine someone feeling uncomfortable seeing IP across the table, if someone was bothered by someone playing consulate dreadnought I'd be pretty surprised.

Imo if wotc wants to apologize, they should put notes up either explaining and/or apologizing on the gatherer entries, something I can imagine secondary sources like scryfall would be willing to duplicate. Banning doesn't make them go away, and it's way more disruptive to people playing the game - I'm now just kinda vaguely nervous that there might be secret racism in any given card that I like and/or spent a bunch of money on. And straight-up erasing the images from gatherer is kinda white-washy imo. You printed it, wotc. You made your money off it. You don't get to pretend like it doesn't exist.
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Selaya wrote:
4 years ago
(In case this wasn't obvious).
Censorship is stupid. These bans are stupid.
Especially the ones like Crusade which are a hell of a ?????. But even the most egregious one, Invoke Prejudice isn't, Barbra or not. This is just a cheap way of useless virtue signalling that helps exactly noone. (Not that I'd expect WotC to actually do something about their racist corporate culture because you know, that'd take actual effort. Actions speak louder than words.)

By this logic we should probably all travel to Rome and go demolish Saint Peter's Basilica because it was built in another, bygone time with and by means that we would now consider disgusting.
I would argue that taking the first step by removing offensive cards is an action. We can speculate whether there will be further action, and we can continue to harp on their history and remain pessimistic that there will be meaningful change to their internal culture, but you can't in good faith say they aren't doing anything. They literally just did do something.

Also, I don't understand why these bans are stupid. Cards get banned because they make for bad playing experiences. Players being uncomfortable about or reminded about bigotry and racism certainly isn't creating a positive environment, any more than the guy using a playmat featuring a half naked anime girl with giant boobs bursting out of a string bikini. Is that censorship as well? (Rhetorical question)
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Post by ZenN » 4 years ago

I think this was handled very poorly, and I agree with several of the points made here already, in regards both to this setting a dangerous precedent and being bad for the game. If WotC really is, legitimately, trying to better themselves and their practices then that's an absolutely admirable goal, but as others have pointed out the timing on this makes it feel incredibly suspect and, while I hate using politically charged buzz words, reeks of "virtue signalling". Of course I hope I'm wrong, but really it's just what companies do these days.

Some of these cards are pretty questionable and feel like over-corrections, but even for the more egregious ones that truly cause offense to a group of people, I think banning was the wrong move. I don't own a copy of Invoke Prejudice, but I could absolutely see myself being significantly more upset about this if I did, and was actively using it. I feel strongly that cards should never be banned for reasons unrelated to game balance, and these sorts of unpredictable bans are very, very bad for overall customer confidence. Magic is a game that generally demands a very high investment from its players, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people, especially collectors, to be made uneasy by the idea that WotC may decide to render any card worthless at any time for any reason they see fit. Granted, some people are being overly melodramatic about it, but it's not an invalid concern.

I recognize that this is only tangentially related, but this whole thing made me think about Looney Tunes. Specifically, the statement Warner Brothers made about their older, overtly racist cartoons from the past. The collections they've released have included this statement (or similar) about those cartoons and their inclusion:
SPOILER
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That statement is akin to what I feel would have been a much more appropriate action from WotC. Acknowledge the faults of the past, make it clear that they do not represent the values you hold today, and recognize that you can't just make past mistakes disappear, and that it's disingenuous to try.

One last note: I had absolutely no idea about the multiverse ID on Invoke Prejudice. I had no idea that number meant anything, or represented any form of hate symbolism. Maybe not living in the US just allows me to avoid exposure to a lot of stuff, but knowing now what that number represents, in relation to the card its on, I agree with others that it definitely feels way too deliberate to be a coincidence.
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Post by Selaya » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
[ ... ]
Also, I don't understand why these bans are stupid. Cards get banned because they make for bad playing experiences. Players being uncomfortable about or reminded about bigotry and racism certainly isn't creating a positive environment, any more than the guy using a playmat featuring a half naked anime girl with giant boobs bursting out of a string bikini. Is that censorship as well? (Rhetorical question)
Are you suggesting that the latter (playmat featuring a half naked anime girl with giant boobs bursting out of a string bikini) should be banned as well? I mean, that'd be the logical conclusion of this wouldn't it?

That's the thing though - there's a million of (potentially) offensive things in Magic like, Murder or Torture, should we ban that too? I mean, going down that slippery slope, we might aswell ban everything under the sun until all we're left with is Mesa Unicorns and then proceed to hug one another to our deaths 0 life points?

Quite besides, I'd categorise something like this as activism and thus words (Hiring people of color and the likes would be actions), and we all know how actions speak louder than words, do we not.
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Post by Wallycaine » 4 years ago

This is good to see. I'm glad that Wizards is choosing to address this stuff directly.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
I really don't like the connotation of that tweet. It reeks of cancel culture. ban everything because it offends someone, somewhere, on the internet.
I think, now that I've slept on it, that's my main objection.

Everything is problematic in degrees.

Invoke Prejudice is pretty egregious, drawn by a white supremacist, having game mechanics that reference a real world ideology along with the title, and then given the least appropriate multiverse ID possible,

But, there's more. HP Lovecraft was a profound racist and antisemite. Don't google his cat's name. Or do, I don't care. One of his most celebrated works, the Shadow over Innsmouth seems like a real great read on body/existential horror, until you realize that Lovecraft's inspiration comes almost entirely from the fear that in the depths of time, he may have had a non-white ancestor and that it would impugn the purity of his race. Miscegenation was, apparently, a huge problem for him.

But wait, there's more stuff we almost all enjoy that I can ruin! Did you know that Tolkien's Orcs are actually depictions of warlike Asians and that they are in fact an allegory for the "Yellow Peril" and Mongol hordes, right down to the description of their facial features?

Don't worry, I have a backpack full of these. If you're not African-American and have the temerity to enjoy a summer afternoon grill, you're treading on practices of slaves and appropriating their culture for your enjoyment.

And on. And on. And on.

I'm not butthurt over Invoke Prejudice, I'm really not. Jihad and Crusade, yeah, kind of. My problem with these sorts of things is that when you look closely enough everything is racist or something-ist. Cancel culture demands that we cease our enjoyment of these things when they are identified to be problematic, and everything is problematic.

At some point, if you're especially conscientious, strongly believe that only the oppressed can be the arbiter of what is oppressive, and you steadfastly refuse to partake in the fruits of racist policies or art, you will find yourself permitted to enjoy nothing, and frankly, life is too short. You cannot demand to breathe air when you're submerged in an ocean.

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Post by rogerandover » 4 years ago

SocorroTortoise wrote:
4 years ago
rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
Seriously though, do our fantasy characters now have to be political correct? That would ruin the whole game. This game is kinda build on racewar. They might aswell just close down WotC...
Can you elaborate on the bolded? I've never had this impression and this is the first time I've seen this take.
I'm not really into the lore of MtG, but it's all about angels vs demon, merfolk vs gobbos, etc, right? The good ol' good versus evil thing.
This is a fantasy-game. Why can't there be dumb, racist characters in a fantasy game, when real life already have them? I don't think I become a racist for playing Invoke Prejudice (yes, I do own a copy) and don't think I will ever meet someone in my country, Denmark, that will ever get offended by it. I think it's very slippery slope wotc has made, and something that might hinder worldbuilding. Fantasy is just filled with offensive stuff, the wolf is cleary a predator for minors, vampires sexoffendors, I mean, these are tales, and maybe they are just told so we know such things could happen. If we silence everything to death, when real life hits, it might be even harder to deal with.

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Post by Rorseph » 4 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
Why can't there be dumb, racist characters in a fantasy game, when real life already have them?
Because people who have to deal with 'dumb, racist characters' in real life shouldn't have to put up with the same in their escapism.

Saying that M:tG is built on race war as a concept is really, really, really trivializing of horrible things in real life. You're already a racist because we're all racists because we live in a racist society. That's the fact. The banning of Invoke Prejudice isn't about whether or not it will make you more racist, but how people sitting across the table from you will feel seeing artwork depicting Klansmen with axes.

We can argue about where the line is for other cards, but I think that Invoke Prejudice is absolutely warranted in banning because of its total package. Full stop.
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Post by SocorroTortoise » 4 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not really into the lore of MtG, but it's all about angels vs demon, merfolk vs gobbos, etc, right? The good ol' good versus evil thing.
This is a fantasy-game. Why can't there be dumb, racist characters in a fantasy game, when real life already have them? I don't think I become a racist for playing Invoke Prejudice (yes, I do own a copy) and don't think I will ever meet someone in my country, Denmark, that will ever get offended by it. I think it's very slippery slope wotc has made, and something that might hinder worldbuilding. Fantasy is just filled with offensive stuff, the wolf is cleary a predator for minors, vampires sexoffendors, I mean, these are tales, and maybe they are just told so we know such things could happen. If we silence everything to death, when real life hits, it might be even harder to deal with.
Wouldn't really categorize that as "built on race war". You can just as easily play demons vs demons, angels vs angels, angels and demons vs whales, or decks with no creatures whatsoever. Racial tension isn't a defining feature of the game. I'm also not following how the trope of good vs evil is equivalent to race war.

I don't think there's an inherent problem with dumb, racist characters or organizations in fantasy, even when they're inspired by real world organizations, but there's a significant difference between inspired by and representing. Even if vampires in a setting are fantastical allegories for sex offenders, there doesn't need to be a character representing an actual, well known sex offender. Some of the banned cards here are reaching a little in my opinion, but cards named using real world slurs or directly representing a real world hate group don't have a place in the game. Real world problems can be explored in fantasy in ways that are still respectful of the people that have to live them. Part of that respectful approach is listening to those people when they say that something about it is wrong and taking action to correct it.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

The more I dig into this, the more convinced I am that WotC did the right thing for the wrong reasons, and won't carry out any real, substantive changes without a fight. This specifically relates to two open letters from black players on June 2nd and 8th.

The first is an open letter to WotC from Lawrence Harmon. He details the treatment that he and other black players have received from WotC.

The second is from Zaiem Beg, formerly of ChannelFireball, and seeks to address players at large. He describes WotC's discriminatory behavior as it relates to hiring and workplace culture, as well as their exploitative treatment of players and content creators, specifically Jason Chan (also known as Amaz).

Both are damning indictments of WotC, painting them as exclusionary, casually racist, deeply insensitive, exploitative, etc. Both deserve to be read in their entirety, with a wealth of examples and insights to which I'd likely do a disservice by attempting to summarize. They paint a stark picture of a company only making surface-level attempts at inclusion while insisting on keeping things in-house, well...white. Zaiem addresses both Invoke Prejudice and Consulate Dreadnought, among many other things, in his letter.

I had no idea things were this nauseatingly awful at WotC. I feel like my head has been in the sand for years now.
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

I do wonder if part of the shakiness of a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor is that it is a plane that is defined by racial tensions - in Daylight, the Elves are virulently speciest and spend most of their time hunting "eyeblights" (anything not an elf) and exterminating them. At "Nightime", Elves are protectors of goodness, but the Kithkin were portrayed as not necessarily racist but intensely xenophobic and suspicious of all outsiders - still not a great look.

re: rogerandover's claim that the game is fundamentally about racial tension - nope, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor is interesting because it's the only example of that sort of attitude being the theme of the whole set. There's other smaller elements of it (like the original take on Nissa and the Mul Dayan elves also being a little racist), but "race war" is not an element of the game's lore on a large scale, and not really an element of its gameplay even in intensely tribal settings which are more about "rooting for your favorite team" (Sun Empire versus Legion of Dusk for example) than "racial superiority".

I do hope that on their "second pass" they talk at least a little about the line since that's a source of concern for many. Like even in this thread, Invoke Prejudice and Pradesh Gypsies seem agreed upon as slam-dunk removals that are offensive by their intrinsic nature; removing them is like Disney no longer releasing or talking about "Song of the South". Cleanse, Jihad, and Stone-Throwing Devils are a little more out there but we at least can make good assumptions on why. Crusade and Imprison feels a bit more weird.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Selaya wrote:
4 years ago
cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
[ ... ]
Also, I don't understand why these bans are stupid. Cards get banned because they make for bad playing experiences. Players being uncomfortable about or reminded about bigotry and racism certainly isn't creating a positive environment, any more than the guy using a playmat featuring a half naked anime girl with giant boobs bursting out of a string bikini. Is that censorship as well? (Rhetorical question)
Are you suggesting that the latter (playmat featuring a half naked anime girl with giant boobs bursting out of a string bikini) should be banned as well? I mean, that'd be the logical conclusion of this wouldn't it?

That's the thing though - there's a million of (potentially) offensive things in Magic like, Murder or Torture, should we ban that too? I mean, going down that slippery slope, we might aswell ban everything under the sun until all we're left with is Mesa Unicorns and then proceed to hug one another to our deaths 0 life points?

Quite besides, I'd categorise something like this as activism and thus words (Hiring people of color and the likes would be actions), and we all know how actions speak louder than words, do we not.
I don't need to suggest it, that playmat is already banned. Maybe not explicitly spelled out in the MTR, but most judges will tell you to use a different playmat.

I'm not going to engage in slippery slope fallacies that end with Murder and Triskaidekaphobia being banned. WotC had a specific reason for banning the cards they banned. More in depth explanation about the background behind these cards has been provided. You are welcome to agree or disagree with the reasoning or their choices. But I'm not going to Chicken Little and think this is going to lead to a cascade of bans.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
The more I dig into this, the more convinced I am that WotC did the right thing for the wrong reasons, and won't carry out any real, substantive changes without a fight. This specifically relates to two open letters from black players on June 2nd and 8th.
I linked these earlier in the thread, but it definitely bears repeating and IMO it makes this whole thing look like deflection and damage control.

Why wait 5-10 years for this? Were they just saving it for this kind of occasion? Right move, yes, but we can criticise why they dragged their feet on Invoke Prejudice especially.

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Post by Selaya » 4 years ago

Fair enough, I haven't played enough (competitive) paper Magic to know of it one way or another, mea culpa.
In any case my point is if racism is a reason for a card to be banned, wouldn't consistency dictate that other potentially offensive themes should be a consideration for a ban, too?
Like, if they decide to ban everything under the sun because these cards may contain potentially offensive themes they would be consistent about their "inclusivity", but as-is (especially considering the stuff like Crusade or Cleanse which I really can't get behind) given all the surrounding context this just seems like a fairly useless gesture.
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