The One Ring

[ISBPathfinder]

You know what's actually a really well-positioned piece of interaction at the moment for cEDH? Oko, Thief of Crowns. Blanks One Rings and problem Commanders while also being able to mini-Drake things. It's Sun Titan-able and is just a bulky planeswalker. Tevesh is great protection for it with its Thrulls too, so it gets a LOT of mileage whenever it comes down.

>_< Oko is the reason I last quit standard so I..... don't want to ever see him again lol. I had to play against someone in draft once who had him in their deck and holy crap that was horrible. I was quite happy when he wasn't seeing commander play as I think he is not fun to play against.

[duducrash]

I bet its one of those decks where you have all the fun and the opponent doesn't

I stg 75% of the time I play against paradox engine my opponent has a 10 minutes turn and pass not winning. I hate it so much

Sounds like your opponents need to git gud lol. I think my win rate with a resolved Paradox Engine was absurdly high and I always won. Always.

I think my new Christmasland scenario is having an Engine + One Ring now @Dunharrow. Dammit. Thanks for keeping me awake tonight...

I mean, yeah probably. But that's the issue I think. Same reason I think top should be banned people take way to many game actions and dont win. Its most likely deck building issue. A big one at that but it happens yo often and creates unfun environments.



More than anything im impressed sun titan sees cedh play

[toctheyounger]

More than anything im impressed sun titan sees cedh play

It doesn't that I'm aware of, but it probably only really needs the right commander to be printed. Something staxy that likes to beat in or what have you. Sevinne's Reclamation is all over the place though, big player in Mardu and Jeskai breach decks, doomsday piles and no bad card decks.

I think there's at least a few things that'll get the Ring, but yeah Oko is probably the best. Other than that Null Rod effects are probably the most efficient. It cuts the whole table off from various strategies, so it's probably more of broad strokes than Oko, but at least it'll mean the burden counters still hurt while it's pinned down.

For what it's worth I'm still not quite on the ban hammer for this. It's very, very strong, but I just haven't seen it at a casual level, and I think I would be throwing eyebrows at anyone who argued it was in the right place in that scene. I think if we're comparing it to Paradox Engine, which tangentially at least we seem to be, I think it looks more favorable, purely because every turn does get you closer to the end of the game, whereas Pengine was just a bit interminable and monotonous (I used to run it too, I can fully admit there were some slogs). I think it's one to watch for sure, and it's possible it gets the axe once the hype of LoTR falls away more, but I can equally see the ways it does open up the meta a lot at the higher end of the format, so I don't necessarily know that it'd be a great thing overall to see it gone. Casuals with the occasional appearance probably rejoice, cedh players idk, maybe are a bit disappointed? Ben could say more I guess, I know the current Ring and Master meta is a midrange grind almost everywhere, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[ISBPathfinder]

For what it's worth I'm still not quite on the ban hammer for this. It's very, very strong, but I just haven't seen it at a casual level, and I think I would be throwing eyebrows at anyone who argued it was in the right place in that scene. I think if we're comparing it to Paradox Engine, which tangentially at least we seem to be, I think it looks more favorable, purely because every turn does get you closer to the end of the game, whereas Pengine was just a bit interminable and monotonous (I used to run it too, I can fully admit there were some slogs). I think it's one to watch for sure, and it's possible it gets the axe once the hype of LoTR falls away more, but I can equally see the ways it does open up the meta a lot at the higher end of the format, so I don't necessarily know that it'd be a great thing overall to see it gone. Casuals with the occasional appearance probably rejoice, cedh players idk, maybe are a bit disappointed? Ben could say more I guess, I know the current Ring and Master meta is a midrange grind almost everywhere, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Its tough to really use any argument about casual vs not when it comes to a good card. Card draw is generally better if you have good deck consistencies with low curves and copious draw and ramp. I remember introducing a bunch of newer players to Necropotence the first time and after I explained the card for like the 5th time they were still confused as to why I would want to do this. It only took them a few deaths to understand why I would want to do that.

My point is kind of that most any card that isn't a big splashy bomb can be dismissed because the complexity was too much for casual players. I don't think Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine got banned for casual reasons. Both cards need designed concepts to break them.

[toctheyounger]

For what it's worth I'm still not quite on the ban hammer for this. It's very, very strong, but I just haven't seen it at a casual level, and I think I would be throwing eyebrows at anyone who argued it was in the right place in that scene. I think if we're comparing it to Paradox Engine, which tangentially at least we seem to be, I think it looks more favorable, purely because every turn does get you closer to the end of the game, whereas Pengine was just a bit interminable and monotonous (I used to run it too, I can fully admit there were some slogs). I think it's one to watch for sure, and it's possible it gets the axe once the hype of LoTR falls away more, but I can equally see the ways it does open up the meta a lot at the higher end of the format, so I don't necessarily know that it'd be a great thing overall to see it gone. Casuals with the occasional appearance probably rejoice, cedh players idk, maybe are a bit disappointed? Ben could say more I guess, I know the current Ring and Master meta is a midrange grind almost everywhere, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Its tough to really use any argument about casual vs not when it comes to a good card. Card draw is generally better if you have good deck consistencies with low curves and copious draw and ramp. I remember introducing a bunch of newer players to Necropotence the first time and after I explained the card for like the 5th time they were still confused as to why I would want to do this. It only took them a few deaths to understand why I would want to do that.

My point is kind of that most any card that isn't a big splashy bomb can be dismissed because the complexity was too much for casual players. I don't think Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine got banned for casual reasons. Both cards need designed concepts to break them.

Yeah I think this is a more overt case than Necro. That's a nuanced card, unless somehow you were around for black winter back in what, '95 or so, it takes a couple reads to properly parse. I don't think the Ring is that hard to grok, it wears it power right out in the open. I was more meaning it's just not something I'm seeing in those sort of games. I don't think that's because it's hard to understand, I think it's more that decks at that level don't necessarily want it. They should, in terms of pure power, but I sure haven't seen it as much. Perhaps it's a price thing, perhaps it's just casual being pure and innocent, idk.

On the other side of this, then, at the higher levels I haven't seen complaints more or less either. It's definitely changed how cedh looks, but I've not heard anyone say it's tangibly worse, just different. It seems mostly like it's that middle ground if where you're not completely green but also not spikey and anything could show up at your table that's where the problem is, and that sounds about right to me.

I think objectively speaking it could eat a ban. There's a possibility it will, but I'm not gonna hold out hope for it. I'd be a little bit bummed for my non blue, non black decks, I have a couple copies that put in good work where they're needed. All in all I think the RC is very much on a light touch policy, and it kind of works mostly. If they hear a ton of subjective clamor it might change, but I don't see that there's much of a groundswell to get it gone myself. There's enough pros to balance the cons to some extent. It is very strong, yes, but it also enables a ton of archetypes to work where before they never would have, so idk where the line is personally. It's not a cut and dried situation to me.

[Avacyn Believer]

I don't think the Ring is that hard to grok, it wears it power right out in the open. I was more meaning it's just not something I'm seeing in those sort of games. I don't think that's because it's hard to understand, I think it's more that decks at that level don't necessarily want it.

I can only speculate why I don't see it in many games, but when I do see it it's either in a deck that was going to take over the game away (if not kept under control by players in the game) because those kind of people play anything that is good, or its in a deck that is struggling to get decent draw. Personally I'd run it in my mono-white decks, if I was going to get copies of it. But it is such an obvious non-Magic in-universe card that I don't feel drawn to playing it, especially not in multiple decks.

Thinking about it like this kind of makes me think what if Sol Ring was a $40 card, yeah it could really help out when you trying to be competitive, but do you really need it? No, not really.

[Mookie]

I don't think Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine got banned for casual reasons.

I'll chip in and say I think Prophet was definitely banned for casual reasons - it was omnipresent in multiple casual metas I played in while it was legal, as were Clone effects, Green Sun's Zenith to fetch it, Reanimate to steal dead Prophets, and Cyclonic Rift to bounce stolen Prophets back to hand. If your UG deck played either instants or creatures (hint: it did), then it was playing Prophet. This also before WotC started printing cards to help Red and White in EDH, which didn't help.

I haven't seen people stealing / copying / cloning The One Ring yet, but I suspect that is partially due to price. Looking at historical data, Prophet topped out at around $4 or so, which meant that pretty much everyone could pick up a copy. I think The One Ring is currently heavily underplayed due to its price (at least in my current meta), which means people haven't been building to abuse / counter it. I'm ready with my Thada Adel, Acquisitor deck whenever that starts though. :D

[benjameenbear]

From a non-cEDH perspective, The One Ring is actually fairly priced from a CMC and power perspective in a vacuum. Without any untap effects, it takes 2-3 turns to really start seeing the return on mana investment with the cards it draws. And it's average window of being cast is probably T3 or T4 statistically speaking

But the issue of its power level relative to cEDH is more of a contextual cEDH thing: powering out a One Ring on T1 or T2 is a surefire way to skyrocket your chances of winning (because you'll see so many more cards relative to your opponents since it resolved so early). And this is a function of the fast mana and specific type of interaction cEDH decklists play. I've even seen a few "Turbo-Ring" decks start to appear (most with Derevi at the helm) to abuse its tap ability. Which is hilarious IMO since it's kind of a direct reflection of the card's perceived and real power level that can be easily played around.

In cEDH, it's statistically highly probably to get a T1 or T2 One Ring into play without too much interaction or responses because counterspells are MUCH more niched in cEDH than they are for the more general EDH meta. Trying to counter an early One Ring while you're holding Flusterstorm and Dispel for that early Ad Nauseam happens quite frequently. Then, the only major pieces of on-board interaction most lists run are wimpy bounce spells a la Chain of Vapor or Cyclonic Rift, which don't actually permanently solve the problem of a resolved Ring.

In my opinion, I think The One Ring is fine. Can it warp a game and lead to blowout wins? Sure. But there's a lot of lines and cards that can do that in cEDH. Adapting your decklist and interaction suite for this powerhouse card is the real priority IMO, and the cEDH crowd is really slow to adapt to that. I think it's one of the reasons Dirk's Pheldagriff list might actually do REALLY well at a cEDH table right now. The lack of on-board interaction and all-purpose counterspells in most decklists is a huge vulnerability. It makes it an interesting axis for attacking the meta IMO. Exile effects that can target enchantments and artifacts have more stock atm yet aren't played as much as they should be.

To me, the larger problem card for cEDH specifically is Orcish Bowmasters. I'll go on a different analysis of this card in a different thread I suppose, but this card has single-handedly influenced both the actual gameplay of cEDH AND the deck construction for cEDH decks. Mana dorks are basically gone from the format and resolving any type of creature-based value engine is very hard to do. The irony is that most of the value engines (besides Remora and Rhystic) were creatures. So, the cEDH meta has slowed down because the FEAR of Bowmasters has sniped out a lof of the creature-based strategies.

[pokken]

The lack of on-board interaction and all-purpose counterspells in most decklists is a huge vulnerability. It makes it an interesting axis for attacking the meta IMO.

I find this little tidbit interesting--because it's something I've been saying and experiencing for years. My CEDH decks have tended to have 2-3 more hard counterspells than is typical (my favorite two being Ertai's Meddling and Arcane Denial) and 1-2 more sweepers than is typical (Hour of Revelation, Toxic Deluge and Supreme Verdict being ones I've slipped in) and it's interesting how often that has paid off. A *lot* of the "meta atack decks" basically are banking on no one having a creature counterspell for Godo, Bandit Warlord or whatever early on. *unfortunately* a lot of the time wind up eating it for being the one to sacrifice there, but it's an interesting dynamic.

To me, the larger problem card for cEDH specifically is Orcish Bowmasters. I'll go on a different analysis of this card in a different thread I suppose, but this card has single-handedly influenced both the actual gameplay of cEDH AND the deck construction for cEDH decks. Mana dorks are basically gone from the format and resolving any type of creature-based value engine is very hard to do. The irony is that most of the value engines (besides Remora and Rhystic) were creatures. So, the cEDH meta has slowed down because the FEAR of Bowmasters has sniped out a lof of the creature-based strategies.

This is really interesting stuff--I can't say I'm super surprised here. I think it is *very* unhealthy for CEDH to have only mana rocks, and I hope to god people are playing Nature's Lore again. It's really lame that the decks that would want to play Stony Silence mostly depend on mana rocks for ramp, and that bowmasters can kill Hushwing Gryff effects so easily (and mostly doesn't care about Torpor Orb.

From a non-cEDH perspective, The One Ring is actually fairly priced from a CMC and power perspective in a vacuum. Without any untap effects, it takes 2-3 turns to really start seeing the return on mana investment with the cards it draws. And it's average window of being cast is probably T3 or T4 statistically speaking

I would agree with this if it was not Indestructible and a fog. The difficulty removing it is a huge barrier for even higher powered casual tables, and god help you if you're on BR decks. Your only real solution is to kill ring player and all they need to do is resolve a Wrath of God and they're in pole position.

Hell, you can "combo" the ring's indestructibility with Hour of Revelation to devastating effect.

Resolving it one turn early is very typical and one turn early + can't be removed puts a clock on the game where now everyone has to focus on you. It's just another Rhystic Study but it's one that is super hard to remove and doesn't give any way to play around it.

[onering]

I don't care about cEDH and it's health, at all. I care about the card's impact in casual, and on mtgo it's everywhere. When it's played, the game immediately becomes about the Ring. It either comes down early and just takes over from the jump or it lands in conjunction with a board reset and takes over. The only time it doesn't work is when someone is way behind, or if someone is holding counter magic or one of the few removal spells that hit it. Counter magic should not be the primary method of dealing with such a strong card, that drives the format too much towards blue.

[ISBPathfinder]

I played a One Ring this weekend in a game in which it was stolen twice before it came back to my turn. If that doesn't give you primeval titan vibes I don't know what does. I believe it was turn 5 when I played it.

[Mookie]

I played a One Ring this weekend in a game in which it was stolen twice before it came back to my turn. If that doesn't give you primeval titan vibes I don't know what does. I believe it was turn 5 when I played it.

Out of curiosity, what effects stole it? I can't think of many commonly-played artifact theft effects other than Thieving Skydiver, so I'm not sure if this is a case of people building with it in mind, or if it's just a weird coincidence. I guess Blatant Thievery / Agent of Treachery, but they wouldn't usually come down T5.

[ISBPathfinder]

I played a One Ring this weekend in a game in which it was stolen twice before it came back to my turn. If that doesn't give you primeval titan vibes I don't know what does. I believe it was turn 5 when I played it.

Out of curiosity, what effects stole it? I can't think of many commonly-played artifact theft effects other than Thieving Skydiver, so I'm not sure if this is a case of people building with it in mind, or if it's just a weird coincidence. I guess Blatant Thievery / Agent of Treachery, but they wouldn't usually come down T5.

You actually named them both. Thieving Skydiver came down from the kicker player's deck he was ramping rather hard at the time. The other was Agent of Treachery which actually hit for the SECOND time that game on T5 from the Satoru Umezawa deck who actually ninjutsued him out for a Cloud of Faeries and then ninjutsued him back into play.

We died to infinite combo from the Ninjutsu player a few turns later as he made infinite mana in combat with land untappers and then pushed Gray Merchant of Asphodel in and out until we died. It was probably turn 8ish that happened.

[pokken]

Finally got to play this card recently and it wound up racing another player's Mirage Mirror that he kept paying to copy my ring. The non-ring players were driven out of the game with the quickness surprisingly. :D

I almost just scooped from how stupid it was. Doubt I will be playing it in anything anymore.