Armies of The Dark Lord

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Starting with the Hosts of Mordor precon and upgrading it. Still kind of unfocused, but I wanted to lean more into the amass trigger and wheel than go as heavy on reanimator.
Armies of The Dark Lord

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

Almost certainly going to cut:
Rampaging War Mammoth - The artifact remove seems good, but is a little on the expensive side, and I keep finding myself not wanting to use it for anything but high value targets. And for 5 mana, it could just be Vandalblast. The body is big, but otherwise unimpressive as a reanimation target.

Knollspine Dragon - It's so awkward. You need to do some real damage then play this in main phase 2. If you can't get through, or need an attacker, or reanimate it on someone else's turn, you don't get any benefit.

Olivia, Crimson Bride - I'm not currently running many sac outlets, and not running a ton of targets, so it may not have much to pick from, is itself not a significant threat, and leaves open an easy 2-for-1 that exiles whatever I brought back.

Scourge of the Throne - not having haste or an ETB trigger means it's often sitting as a target, and I'm not a powerful enough attacking deck to feel like the double swing from this and my board will close out games.

Definitely other cards that can be cut. Would appreciate suggestions on cuts and adds. Definitely need to get The Ozolith in here.
Last edited by yeti1069 9 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Chromaticus » 10 months ago

Call of the Ring — would you be able to align it such that you wound up with 5 cards?

Also, I know that I mentioned it in the other thread, but Ion Storm could do work here. The threat of activation is just so strong - any X/2 or X/4, that's not coming at me, right?

I don't know if Gleaming Overseer works the right way. I think you just get a counter on your orc army if that's come down first.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Chromaticus wrote:
10 months ago
Call of the Ring — would you be able to align it such that you wound up with 5 cards?

Also, I know that I mentioned it in the other thread, but Ion Storm could do work here. The threat of activation is just so strong - any X/2 or X/4, that's not coming at me, right?

I don't know if Gleaming Overseer works the right way. I think you just get a counter on your orc army if that's come down first.
Call you can stack to end up with 5 cards, yeah. That's on the list of cards I want to get in here. A lot of the other tempt cards are kind of awkward with Sauron, however: Ringsight, Sauron's Ransom, Birthday Escape. You get the cards in hand before Sauron's wheel trigger, so you have to decide between keeping the cards or pitching them.

All the amass cards work together--they add creatures types (orc, zombie, and now sliver) to the existing army, so you can have an orc sliver zombie army.

If the deck gets to the point where it's wheeling fairly regularly, I'd want to try and fit Rielle, the Everwise in here.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 10 months ago

Shadow of the Grave could be decent as a way to recur pitched hand or could be a massive draw if you get 2+ tempt triggers in a turn.
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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

It looks kind of awkward since it only works if you drew it after the wheel, right? I haven't played with it, so don't know if it's worth it.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

So, Retribution of the Ancients is kind of a nonbo with The Ozolith.
Also, The Ozolith really only does anything so long as Sauron is out.

I played a game where I had to mulligan to 5 to find more than 1 land, then had a slow start. Eventually got out Sauron, but everyone else was ahead and having big, swingy turns. My army had gotten huge, but I had to essentially sac it to Retribution to keep another player from gaining a ton of life with a Noxious Gearhulk targeting it. After that, Sauron got removed, and I wasn't ever able to really recover.

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

I think you should give some serious thought to the ramp profile in this deck. Sauron, the Dark Lord costs so much that playing 2/1 rocks are gonna lead you to mana stalls a lot, especially without the Preordain et al package.

I would cut Commander's Sphere for Coalition Relic and possibly shave one more mana rock for Worn Powerstone (Fellwar Stone would be my pick). Those cards are not amazing but just an incremental ability to occasionally pop sauron two turns early instead of one should really help.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
I think you should give some serious thought to the ramp profile in this deck. Sauron, the Dark Lord costs so much that playing 2/1 rocks are gonna lead you to mana stalls a lot, especially without the Preordain et al package.

I would cut Commander's Sphere for Coalition Relic and possibly shave one more mana rock for Worn Powerstone (Fellwar Stone would be my pick). Those cards are not amazing but just an incremental ability to occasionally pop sauron two turns early instead of one should really help.
I'm inclined to agree. I may even go up to some of the bigger rocks at 4 or 5 mana.

On a separate note, From the Catacombs is a RIDICULOUS card here! I had wanted stuff that can be played from the yard, and it not only does that better than flashback spells, since it never goes away, but with the self-wheeling, it's not too hard to fill the bin to keep fodder rolling. I just got out of a game where I'd binned Anger fairly early and probably cast FtC 4 or 5 times during the game. I actually had some juicy targets outside of my own yard, but getting back Gleaming Overseer to help my army punch through, and Sauron himself for 5, instead of 8, 10, mana felt like the more correct plays.

Additionally, each cast gives you an Initiative trigger, which itself provides value.

I may cut Ruthless Technomancer. It's kind of an awkward reanimator unless I have other sources for tons of treasures since I want to be targeting big things. Sometimes I want to feed my huge army into it, while at others I don't. This game, it was my only target off completing The Undercity in my upkeep, and I didn't want to sac my huge army, so I fed Sauron into it, but I think that was ultimately a mistake, as I only netted 2 mana.

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
10 months ago
I'm inclined to agree. I may even go up to some of the bigger rocks at 4 or 5 mana.
yea, I could definitely see this being a Gilded Lotus deck.
yeti1069 wrote:
10 months ago
On a separate note, From the Catacombs is a RIDICULOUS card here!
Many of the escape cards seem great honestly. Good call :) props for old school styles Deep Analysis too lol

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Deep Analysis comes in the deck, but yeah, was looking at stuff along those lines with flashback, jump-start, etc... Unfortunately most of those are poorly costed or don't quite fill a needed roll.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Highlights from this last game:
The Ozolith actually put in work this time around. Had an 8/8 army when I cast Decree of Pain to wipe the board and draw 15!
Next turn cast The Balrog of Moria and put 8 counters on it to swing for 16.
On the following turn, swung for another 16, then cast Ruthless Technomancer and sacrificed it to make 16 treasure (didn't exile since there weren't any high value targets). Reanimated it, put counters back on it from The Ozolith and went to town again.
One Ring to Rule them All chose The Balrog as the ring bearer and milled everyone a ton, wiped some boards that were starting to build.
The Balrog grew to an 18/18 and swung knocking out an opponent.
On the following turn, the last opponent was going to die to one of: the last chapter on ORtRTA, The Balrog swinging, or Ayara, Widow of the Realm // Ayara, Furnace Queen flinging it.

To be fair, there was little interaction, and the player furthest ahead, who I was going to send the first Balrog swing at disconnected before I went to attacks.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Made a number of changes here. Will track those later.

Just got a game in and wanted to share a few bits:
Had a very slow start of 2 lands, Sol Ring, Talisman...and then not much for a few turns. No lands. Eventually drew Inherited Envelope and cast it with nothing out so I could cast Sauron on the following turn. Ended up winning the game with 4 lands in play.
Reaver Cleaver helped a ton! I dropped it the turn after Sauron, equipped him and swung in at a planeswalker for 8 treasures, which led to Kaervek. I was able to connect with a Cleaver-equipped big guy every turn after that. My second swing with Sauron, opponent blocked with their Yarok, the Desecrated, which I killed after blocks to trample over 0.
Kaervek the Merciless was FANTASTIC! Even more than expected.
From the Catacombs was again super solid. I used it to reanimate Kaervek when it got removed so it could continue to terrorize the board. Gaining the initiative let me fetch my 3rd land on turn 8, I think. Second cast got me Bilbo, Retired Burglar to tempt me and get a fresh hand. It also sped me to the 3rd room so I could goad a 10/10 flyer into killing one of the two remaining opponents.
I brought In the Darkness Bind Them back in, and it felt very good. I also added in some of the other tempt cards, which also ended up feeling worthwhile. Their costed at a slight premium ( sorcery to kill a creature, to bounce a creature), but were inexpensive enough that I was happy to have a mini-wheel attached.

Part of me wants to build a total spell-punisher package with the likes of: Counterbalance, Havoc, Kraum, Ludevic's Opus, Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant, Nezahal, Primal Tide, Rhystic Study, Painful Quandary, Soul Barrier, Swindler's Scheme, Wandering Archaic, along with more sac outlets to make use of the army tokens, along with Grave Pact effects.

But that seems very mean, and looks like something I would only play a couple times before abandoning. Still, I think there's a very solid deck there, possibly backed by some repeat discard effects or tax pieces to ensure players aren't able to assemble their game plan/responses to mine effectively. I feel like a jerk just thinking about it.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Made a bunch of changes, which I still haven't tracked.

I definitely feel like including more of the tempt cards was the right call here. I've had a few games now where I've seen over half my deck (and the graveyard was bigger than my library!). This includes min-wheeling myself 2-3 times a turn for a few turns in a row. Pretty weak vs a graveyard removal, but haven't seen any yet.

I also feel like I have a good number of ways to play out of the yard. For the most part I didn't end up pitching anything I felt like I needed/couldn't recur easily enough. Containment Construct showed up kind of late and did a little work. Would have been much better if my Archfiend of Ifnir hadn't gotten removed the turn after it showed up, but it did its job.

Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar may be on the chopping block. I've had it show up a few times now and either didn't cast it, because waiting a turn cycle for the effect was too long, or I did drop it, and it got removed before I untapped. I also had one game where I had it untapped and active, but didn't want to sacrifice anything at the moment for cards. This could be Disciple of Bolas, or could be scrapped entirely for something else.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Thinking I can probably stand to go up 1-3 more pieces of ramp. In part, because I have this expensive commander, but also because I am able to chug through my hand fairly quickly. That means, extra rocks will allow me to cast more from each mini-wheel, but also aren't dead weight in hand for long anyway.

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Post by yeti1069 » 10 months ago

Going deep on Tempt cards has been the way to go. That said, the ones that put a card in hand (Birthday, Ransom, Ringsight) are kind of awkward, forcing a choice between keeping the card(s) or wheeling.

I included Terminal Agony for being kind of on-theme with a deck that discards its own hand so often, but I don't think it's worth running over any of the other removal options available. 4 mana for a sorcery most of the time is just not good.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

Some observations and the beginnings of changes...

The deck really gets going when it's able to get tempted one or more times per turn. It's felt like it does a pretty good job of accessing the graveyard for the stuff that's been pitched--it has been rare that I am tempted, but choose not to wheel. That seems like a good sign that things are working correctly.

Containment Construct has shown up twice, I think--once I played it and was able to get a land drop and cast a spell off of its trigger. I think that ended up being a board wipe from me. I've seen it one other time, and didn't cast it. The biggest value it has, I think, is in those moments where I want a tempt to wheel, but the timing of it (sorcery speed in combat, for example) precludes casting sorcery-speed spells at that time. The most common example so far has been board wipes--I want to get in for combat damage with the army, trigger Sauron, and wheel, but if I do that, I lose the wipe in my hand. This isn't an issue all the time, but it has come up enough times so far that I want to leave Containment in for now.

Orcish Bowmasters has ranged from being underwhelming to being very strong. I suppose in the situations where it's underwhelming I'm doing well already, since opponents aren't drawing extra cards.

Elrond, Lord of Rivendell has been a very strong addition. My only complaint is that it's easy to forget about his trigger, but it offers a way to potentially wheel on each player's turn if there's a sac outlet available, and opponents cast 2+ spells in a turn. This guy has allowed me to wheel 3 times in my own turn (army damage, tempt card, 2nd creature entering). Elrond also comes down early enough that he can help smooth my draws in the early turns.

Saruman, the White Hand is getting the ax; I've seen him a half dozen times now, and I don't think I've cast him. I've also had the opportunity to reanimate him, and haven't done so. Even with 40% of the deck being noncreatures, many of those being cheap (stringy), and having some use for both a larger army and multiple amass triggers, he just doesn't seem as impactful as other options available at the time. The only times I've felt like I WANTED him (but didn't have Saruman available) were on my turn, when I've had no army (removed/sacrificed), Anger in the graveyard, spells to cast, and Sauron in play. That hasn't happened often enough that I feel the need to keep him.

Ruthless Technomancer continues to be very good, but is making it hard for me to keep NOT putting Dockside Extortionist in here. I've used the reanimation ability on occasion, but I'm not making so much treasure otherwise that it's able to keep contributing in that regard. In a recent game, an opponent had a crazy board state that included Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger--I tapped 3 lands + a mana rock to drop RT and eat my 10/10 army to make enough treasure that I could keep interacting/playing without tapping all my lands down. If I'd had Dockside instead, I think I would have made 2-3 fewer treasures, but would have also had to tap 2 fewer lands. Docky would also be preferable in situations where I don't want to be sacrificing my team.

FINALLY got Bone Miser out, and BOY did it make for some big plays! I had one turn where I tempted 3 times, in large part thanks to BM's additional mana and cards.

Razaketh, the Foulblooded came out in the last game, but I never felt like I wanted to be tutoring a bunch, partly due to my being way ahead already. That said, I could have definitely machine gun tutored in a couple places.

Too Greedily, Too Deep continues to be a fun, if somewhat awkward card. This is how I got out Razaketh last game, which killed everything else except my 9/9 army. Normally, I wouldn't be thrilled about blowing up my own 6 CMC commander, but...

From the Catacombs, Vat of Rebirth (a recent addition), and Altar of Bhaal // Bone Offering have all done a good job of allowing me to recur Sauron from the yard when needed, in addition to giving me a reanimation game that works through constant wheels. Vat can accumulate its own counters rapidly and regularly, so it becomes an easily repeatable source of value. Altar is a little harder to work with if my army is big enough that I don't want to feed it to the Altar, but the card has still been great. FtC has been one of my most cast spells, often getting back 2-3 creatures/game + the added dungeon value. It's been so good, in fact, that I almost want to include Entomb--obviously a solid card in any reanimator-style deck, but here I believe I would often be tutoring for the reanimation spell, rather than the target.

The Reaver Cleaver continues to impress: it gives my army or Sauron trample and a small buff, and has kept me flush with mana. Even on a smaller body it has been valuable--in a recent game I slapped it on Elrond, who I ended up making my ring-bearer, and was able to skulk by some 5-power blockers, while presenting the threat of trampling over chumps.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago


These cuts don't necessarily reflect what I'd had in the original post list, as I hadn't tracked a few changes, but will update that list now to the current one in any case.
Upcoming additions: I'm trying out the polymorph cards as yet another way to cash in an Army for other value. The ideal play pattern there is to swing with the army, deal damage, tempt and wheel, then feed it to a polymorph effect. We'll see how often that works out--both effects are sorcery speed, so they can't cash in at other times.

I also want to try foretell as another way to save cards when I'm wheeling a bunch. The 3 in "upcoming" are ones I haven't been able to unearth from my collection yet.

I'm trying Bitterthorn here, but I'm down to just 5 basics, so I have a feeling I'll either end up cutting it, or having to bring in another 2-3 basics to support it.

Elrond is fantastic! The scry has a baseline of helping to smooth out my draws, and if I have a sac outlet of any kind, 2 spells from an opponent on a turn can mean a tempt+wheel.

Otherwise, most of these changes are just straight upgrades. I was loath to drop Anger (or any of the LotR-specific artwork cards), but flying is much more needed here than haste.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

@Dunadain Figured you might find some of this relevant to your Dark Lord.

Ayara, Widow of the Realm // Ayara, Furnace Queen paid her way in this last game! I think I ended up gaining somewhere around 30 life with her over the course of the game (flung a 7/7 army, Sauron, a Balrog, another army of some size, and Niv-Mizzet, Parun. That life gain kept me in it (I ended at 16 life, and for once had done only about 3 to myself) vs an early Bloodchief Ascension and some big beats coming my way. It also helped me finish off a combo player hiding behind a Ghostly Prison effect (Niv got sacced for the last 5 to them before they got to untap again).

I got to see a couple of the foretell cards I added, but never had the chance to foretell them. Things were looking kind of ugly, early, so I was spending mana trying to develop and keep others in check. Then I got into a turbo-wheel groove with Elrond and Goblin Bombardment allowing me to trigger Sauron's wheel on nearly every turn, Call of the Ring giving me another trigger on my upkeep, and getting the army in a couple of times (it actually got blocked on my first 3 swings, each time eating a semi-valuable setup piece). Altar of Bhaal ensured that I could freely pitch valuable creatures to the yard and get them back by feeding my army to the Altar. I also got out Gollum, which loaded me with another wheel when I needed it as well as the possibility of sinking mana into repeated recursion and sacrifice of the horror, but I never used it.

I discarded Kaervek in a wheel to reanimate it with Altar at a discount of 4 mana. I reanimated Niv twice, while never having the 3rd to hard cast.

The enchantress deck was hiding behind some heavy attack taxes (2 decks with these this game), but I got Psychosis Crawler and just focused on wheeling even more. A reanimated Balrog gave me some insurance vs the dragon deck, since I could sacrifice it in response to attackers and remove the biggest threat coming my way. The rattlesnake was enough.

Proteus Staff helped early, getting me Elrond and then the Balrog, but after that I never felt like I wanted to be spending the 3 mana on a random creature from my deck (Altar kind of took that spot), but I had a couple of turns where I got to chug along without casting spells, and avoided feeding cards to Rhystic Study and Mangara.

It was a GRIND, and I ended with 16 cards in my deck when I finally got the last damage through: dropped Psychosis Crawler. Killed something with Claim the Precious, wheeled. Drew a mana rock that produced , which I needed to activate Altar, reanimated Niv. Then cast Birthday Escape.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 9 months ago

Quick note: Flinging a 7/7 army with Ayara, Widow of the Realm // Ayara, Furnace Queen will deal 0 damage due to her tracking the Mana Value of the permanent, not Power. Which is why she can fling non-creature artifacts as well. That may be relevant to the power of that card.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
9 months ago
Quick note: Flinging a 7/7 army with Ayara, Widow of the Realm // Ayara, Furnace Queen will deal 0 damage due to her tracking the Mana Value of the permanent, not Power. Which is why she can fling non-creature artifacts as well. That may be relevant to the power of that card.
Oh, that was dumb of me. Yeah, that's getting cut.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
9 months ago
Quick note: Flinging a 7/7 army with Ayara, Widow of the Realm // Ayara, Furnace Queen will deal 0 damage due to her tracking the Mana Value of the permanent, not Power. Which is why she can fling non-creature artifacts as well. That may be relevant to the power of that card.
Any suggestions for a good replacement?

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 9 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
Any suggestions for a good replacement?
I can't think of anything that can fling a creature repeatably for as little mana as Ayara. Plenty of sacrifice effects to get some value, but the direct damage usually cost a bit of mana to activate, or comes on a more expensive creature. I have been liking Disciple of Griselbrand as a way to gain a lot of life easily. If a bit of lifegain is what you need, this could be acceptable. Otherwise Braids, Arisen Nightmare is really solid draw engine for 3 mana. Maybe redundant with your commander, but more cards are never bad.

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

In most of my games I definitely feel like I've leaned on the various cards that give me access to my graveyard, so have been pretty freewheeling with my...wheels.

This last game I just played saw every one of those value pieces get blown up in short order, so I had to be a little more strategic with what I playing/keeping and when I was taking the wheel. The foretell cards (Saw It Coming and Ravenform both came in handy, and were foretold early in the game. Wonder also got pitched on my first tempt trigger (turn 7, I think) and the flying made an enormous impact on the game. Bitterthorn came down kind of late, and got taken out by an artifact sweeper before it got a chance to attack.

I added Rielle, the Everwise in place of Ayara, and only got to trigger her once, but the value was great! That said, I did realize that her ability isn't a may, and if I swing with the ring-bearer she triggers mid-combat instead of when I'm tempted by an army connecting. That can be awkward. In this case, I had Soothing of Sméagol in hand, so I could instant speed tempt (and remove a blocker) to get the full value of discarding 3, drawing 7.

I'd considered taking out Dreadhorde Invasion, but figured the life link on the army might come up and be useful. Well, that was CERTAINLY the case here! This game my army never died, and grew to quite enormous size, such that I went back to 40 life 3 turns in a row, while taking flak from everyone else at the table. Then it finally drew removal. It absolutely kept me alive this game.

I do also think I could probably use a little more life gain in general, but not sure what I'd add.

Again, The Reaver Cleaver was HUGE! On one attack, I cast my foretold Ravenform to remove a Vampire Nighthawk, then gave my army fear so it could bypass the 1/1 bird. Next turn cycle, I just trampled over it and made 19 treasures!

On the creature front, The Balrog of Moria has continued to be interesting, and it dying has been big value.
Razaketh, the Foulblooded I saw again, but didn't feel like I needed to cast him/would gain any value at that point. I have also in two games now, elected to not reanimate/cast him, because I felt like I was already far enough ahead without tutoring a bunch. Will have to monitor how often i feel this way, and may cut him if I find that I'm just not using it.

Sauron, Lord of the Rings is...not great, but I keep it around for. Still, when I DO cast it, it feels good.

Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger has been decent. I don't have a lot of discard, and no payoffs, so it's basically a Burglar Rats that can cause some life loss and then come back later. This last part has been the value--my yard fills quickly, and having a cheap self-reanimator with some upside has come up a few times.

Nicol Bolas, the Ravager // Nicol Bolas, the Arisen has felt kind of out of place here, again for the discard not adding to an overall strategy, and also because I find that I rarely want to spend 7 mana on my turn just to flip him, high value or no. Still, not sure where else I'd run it, so it stays here for the time being.

Every time Kaervek the Merciless has shown up, it's been game-altering/winning. Even in a game where an opponent stole my Kaervek, I was able to survive getting back without too much burn.

Added Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands, which showed up early in this game. It forced one player to pay the tax once (Rampant Growth), a few other spells got cast that I didn't want/need to copy (artifact board wipe and a fog, for example), and then got me a copy of a non-creature removal spell, which was decent. I don't know if it held people back from playing spells--it didn't seem like it.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 9 months ago

yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
I do also think I could probably use a little more life gain in general, but not sure what I'd add.
See my post directly above yours :). Don't you want to turn all your lands into Diamond Valleys for ?

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Post by yeti1069 » 9 months ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
9 months ago
yeti1069 wrote:
9 months ago
I do also think I could probably use a little more life gain in general, but not sure what I'd add.
See my post directly above yours :). Don't you want to turn all your lands into Diamond Valleys for ?
I've always found Disciple to be kind of lackluster. Having to spend mana, and gaining no benefit aside from life hasn't ever impressed me. Here, the fling was the main piece of value, with the life gain being somewhat secondary (although in that last, misplayed, game the life was a big draw). I also don't want my repeatable sac outlets to cost mana--that makes it too difficult to sacrifice an army every time its made. I've added Blasting Station in place of Ayara and will see about life elsewhere for now.

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