Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[Lifeless]

They have put together decks with respectable functional landbases before, even in the recent past. I don't expect expensive, I expect function. Particularly at a premium price point.

[TheGildedGoose]

Being $8.00 hardly precludes anything from getting a print in commander product. See Urza's Incubator previously mentioned. But I assume being a playable land over $2.00 means it is "too good" to be in the decks and they like to put the reprint equity into headlining non-lands. But really these 4+ color decks need some help. Having so many non-tutorable tapped lands put these decks to incredibly far behind the curve. Ziatora's Proving Ground is only $1 more than Three Visits.

Funny enough, most new players I meet would gladly spend $$ getting the cool non-lands for a precon deck, and the mana base is the last thing they look at. So I'm not sure the agrument that making the mana base suck encourages more spending actually comes to fruition.

High profile reprints of older cards not on the RL but are still prohibitively expensive and reprinted moderately expensive lands recently printed but have high demand are not in the same category, so I don't think it's particularly useful to compare the two. That said:

I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the practice in principle, but my expectation is that WotC and Hasbro will try to squeeze every last dime out of its customers. I'm not arguing that what they're doing is ethically correct, I'm arguing that expecting them to do something that makes them less money than a given alternative isn't a winning bet.

[TheGildedGoose]

publicación doble

They have put together decks with respectable functional landbases before, even in the recent past. I don't expect expensive, I expect function. Particularly at a premium price point.

Sure. Not in a 5-color deck, though. What is your expectation? A 5-color deck without fetches or duals sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. The color distribution of the sliver deck is roughly equal, which is even more nightmarish. 2/2/2/2/3 basics? Sweet baby Jesus.

[Hermes_]

Why people think WotC will ever put expensive mana fixing lands in precons is beyond me. I mean, a) they sell more cards if people have to buy lands and b) upgrading and understanding your manabase is a learning experience that theoretically makes people better deckbuilders. If you think that precons should be playable at most tables right outside of the box, you're welcome to your opinion but I think that's an unrealistic expectation.

Anyway, the price is too damn high and, as always, I will only buy singles. Other than that I really don't have much to say about reprint sets.

I mean, what is expensive? Jetmir's Garden Spara's Headquarters Ziatora's Proving Ground are all under $8.00 right now. It does add up if you add all 3 of them in there, but honestly if they are going to increase the cost to purchase, they need to increase the value to compensate. See your bolded comment about price.

I'm not saying you are wrong, as history has proven your point. But that doesn't make it good practice for Wizards. I don't need "expensive", I just need "functional", or at least more functional than Nomad Outpost et. all. At least then the Bad River would be somewhat useful, if still glacially slow.

okay, so you have a cap on how many rares you have in the deck, the lands you listed are all currently at rare. So which rares in the deck are you gonna change to other cards?

Has Wotc ever downshifted the rarity of a land?

[yeti1069]

Being $8.00 hardly precludes anything from getting a print in commander product. See Urza's Incubator previously mentioned. But I assume being a playable land over $2.00 means it is "too good" to be in the decks and they like to put the reprint equity into headlining non-lands. But really these 4+ color decks need some help. Having so many non-tutorable tapped lands put these decks to incredibly far behind the curve. Ziatora's Proving Ground is only $1 more than Three Visits.

Funny enough, most new players I meet would gladly spend $$ getting the cool non-lands for a precon deck, and the mana base is the last thing they look at. So I'm not sure the agrument that making the mana base suck encourages more spending actually comes to fruition.

The assumption, I think, is that players run the deck out of the box, and after a while notice other players are developing more quickly than they are. Some more games may lead to them realizing that all their lands are coming into play tapped, while everyone else's are coming in untapped most of the time. That may lead to some discussion, and their moving to improve the mana base.

All that said, I agree that WotC is doing their players a disservice by providing them clunky decks, and especially so if they're also increasing the price of the decks without adding value. I also think that newer players have a difficult time evaluating these things, and the "vegetables" of deck building are often the least interesting parts to focus on. I've played with so many people who "upgrade" their precons by swapping out staples like mana rocks for flashier cards. Upgrading the mana base is pretty far from their minds, so they're just getting disappointed by playing bad decks.

[Hawk]

Like everyone is saying - we don't need $$$ manabases, but after LotR in particular I expected functional landbases with a minimal amount of EtB tapped lands.

I understand why other precons don't get painlands, for example, (new players despise painlands), but these are definitely the decks for them as they are priced and built to cater to "enfranchised" players.

I was not expecting Cavern of Souls for Sliver Swarm, but no Sliver Hive is ludicrous. Would also have been nice to see Reflecting Pool or City of Brass for our first ever 5C manabase, as this deck is going to struggle to get otherwise okay dual lands like Prairie Stream down untapped. As it stands I imagine a bunch of less enfranchised players losing a lot when they buy this deck and have to do things like Savage Lands into Flood Plain into Sunken Hollow and don't actually get to cast any real spells until like turn 4 or 5.

We will never (again) get Shocks or Fetches in a precon, and that's whatever, but at this price point, I also don't see why we didn't get Battlebond Lands or Triomes for these lists. Or for Planeswalkers, maybe Glacial Fortress and the other "checklands" instead of our 60th printing of garbage lands like Skycloud Expanse and Port Town.

When the LotR decks had these lands, I sorta expected these to follow suit. Otherwise - why are these nearly double the price of a normal commander deck, if they are constructed exactly the same way?

(I know the answer is WotC's naked greed and need to recoup the money they didn't make on Magic 30th, I just wish there was a less cynical answer)
-----------------------------------
Anyways, Chandra, Legacy of Fire looks like a fun addition to my monored superfriends deck.

[Mookie]

From the superfriends precon, I'll note that Guff Rewrites History looks quite solid as a mass-Chaos Warp / Wild Magic Surge. The other cards are good in superfriends, but otherwise unexciting. Gatewatch Beacon is a new sweet 3-mana rock with upside, at least.

I'll note that while the Sliver deck manabase is roughly on-par with the previous 5C precon in DMU, they are both upgrades over the the Dragon precon from a while ago. It's roughly on-par with my mental model of 'budget 5c manabase', and both it and the superfriends precon have a reasonable amount of nonland fixing - while they may have a lot of tapped lands, I don't expect them to have issues with actually having the colors necessary to cast their spells. The main issue here is that while the manabase may be budget, the deck itself is not - there has been a significant price increase over normal precons, and I'm not convinced the other cards in the 99 justify that increase.

...it's somewhat interesting to compare it to the coin flip secret lair manabase, which included stuff like Academy Ruins and Training Center.

Anyway, the cards included in the precons are ultimately totally arbitrary - it's not like adding an Underground Sea to a precon would cost WotC any more than a Dimir Guildgate. I understand WotC's choice as a business to try to maximize their profits, and I expect them to continue raising prices for as long as people keep buying product. Meanwhile, I'm going to exercise my right as a consumer to ignore products that I do not think justify their price tag (which means I'm likely to continue sticking to singles for the foreseeable future).

manabase comparison

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Dragons precon manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Arcane Sanctum

1 Command Tower

1 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon

1 Crumbling Necropolis

3 Forest

1 Frontier Bivouac

1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon

3 Island

1 Jungle Shrine

6 Mountain

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Nomad Outpost

1 Opulent Palace

1 Path of Ancestry

3 Plains

1 Sandsteppe Citadel

1 Savage Lands

1 Seaside Citadel

3 Swamp

1 Vivid Crag

1 Vivid Creek

1 Vivid Grove

1 Vivid Marsh

1 Vivid Meadow

Approximate Total Cost:

Dominaria United precon manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Arcane Sanctum

1 Bad River

1 Canopy Vista

1 Cascading Cataracts

1 Cinder Glade

1 Command Tower

1 Crumbling Necropolis

1 Crystal Quarry

1 Evolving Wilds

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Flood Plain

3 Forest

1 Frontier Bivouac

1 Grasslands

2 Island

1 Jungle Shrine

1 Krosan Verge

2 Mountain

1 Mountain Valley

1 Murmuring Bosk

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Nomad Outpost

1 Opulent Palace

2 Plains

1 Prairie Stream

1 Rocky Tar Pit

1 Sandsteppe Citadel

1 Savage Lands

1 Seaside Citadel

1 Smoldering Marsh

1 Sunken Hollow

2 Swamp

1 Terramorphic Expanse

Approximate Total Cost:

Slivers manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Ash Barrens

1 Canopy Vista

1 Cinder Glade

1 Command Tower

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Flood Plain

3 Forest

1 Frontier Bivouac

1 Grasslands

1 Irrigated Farmland

2 Island

1 Jungle Shrine

2 Mountain

1 Mountain Valley

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Nomad Outpost

1 Opulent Palace

1 Path of Ancestry

2 Plains

1 Prairie Stream

1 Rocky Tar Pit

1 Sandsteppe Citadel

1 Savage Lands

1 Scattered Groves

1 Seaside Citadel

1 Secluded Courtyard

1 Sheltered Thicket

1 Smoldering Marsh

1 Sunken Hollow

2 Swamp

1 Unclaimed Territory

Approximate Total Cost:

Coinflip precon manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Academy Ruins

1 Buried Ruin

1 Cascade Bluffs

1 Command Tower

1 Desolate Lighthouse

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Flamekin Village

1 Great Furnace

1 Inventors' Fair

7 Island

1 Izzet Boilerworks

8 Mountain

1 Myriad Landscape

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Rogue's Passage

1 Shivan Reef

1 Spinerock Knoll

1 Sulfur Falls

1 Temple of Epiphany

1 Temple of the False God

1 Tolaria West

1 Training Center

1 Wandering Fumarole

Approximate Total Cost:

[PrimevalCommander]

okay, so you have a cap on how many rares you have in the deck, the lands you listed are all currently at rare. So which rares in the deck are you gonna change to other cards?
Has Wotc ever downshifted the rarity of a land?

We have 4 of the slow-fetches and 3 sorceries that can search typed-duals, so we can lean into that. Boost the basic count to help with the Tango lands, though that is debatable, I just want some lands that come in untapped and I don't know many fixing lands that do that at uncommon. Panoramas if you want more Fixing but want them to at least be able to come in untapped if you need the mana.

Out
Irrigated Farmland
Scattered Groves
Sheltered Thicket
All 8 of the tapped tri-lands, jeeze there are 8 of them in here

This gives me 3 rare slots 8 uncommons/commons only adjusting the lands. All already come in tapped by default. I would gladly trade Decimate for Deathsprout to open up another rare slot for a Check land or two, which pair wonderfully with typed-duals. may be a deal breaker though. Putrefy as a second choice.

In
Ziatora's Proving Ground
Jetmir's Garden
Spara's Headquarters
Krosan Verge
Tangled Islet
Wooded Ridgeline
Radiant Grove
Haunted Mire
Forest
Mountain
Plains or Island

**Panoramas if you don't want more basics
***Argument could be made to swap the 5 tango lands for (non-green) Check Lands to go with all of our typed duals, since our ramp sorceries help match the types we need.

[PrimevalCommander]

Calculations show only 16 (43%) of the Sliver deck's lands naturally enter the battlefield untapped. 11 of those being basic lands. I don't know how this deck is meant to function with 57% tapped lands. But I don't regularly play pre-cons. I did play the Cabaretti precon in a few regular casual games and did fine, but that was 3 color with more basics.

[Cyberium]

Thus far, the two precons are boring as hell. I don't buy precons for reprints, but if WotC is going to charge extra for those who would, the compnay should at least make it worthwhile. Take Universe Beyond precons for example, at least the reprints are in new gorgeous arts.

[Hawk]

I'd happily buy Commodore Guff at a normal $45-50 price point as it includes a few new cards I find exciting (mostly the new 'walkers), a new staplish card in Guff Rewrites History, and a few nice reprints like The Chain Veil, Deepglow Skate, Mangara, the Diplomat, and Spark Double as well as giving me more of the "go in every deck" cards I always need more of (good rocks, Swords to Plowshares, the stuff that's always $1-$2). That's the "normal" value I'd want from a precon where I'm not necessarily interested in either of the decks actual commanders. But at $80? Nope.

[duducrash]

a new staplish card in Guff Rewrites History,

No card needs that much text.


I have a UW walkers deck! I've tought about going Jeskai before (specially because I'd like to play Mila, Crafty Companion // Lukka, Wayward Bonder ) but I'd spend so many hours making the cuts I can't even start. For UW I would maybe play :

Gatewatch Beacon
Teyo, Geometric Tactician
Vronos Masked Inquisitor
Onakke Oathkeeper - I don't play many creatures and have considered going 0 creatures before, even shifting to Shorikai, Genesis Engine to stay on theme. but maybe I'll pick one



This premium sets are so crazy that baring a downshift or a card that previously were really rare, it does not change much the price. I'll Follow the medallions because I need one of each, except the green one. I hope LOTR bundles were a smash hit and in the future, WOTC releases bundles with chase cards. I think the scene from LOTR was a really nice idea

[toctheyounger]

In no way am I interested in these decks, and I don't see that changing with the Eldrazi or Dragons, but this one does seem to have better overall quality than the Slivers. I think it'll hold it's own anyway because slivers are slivers, but still. For a 5 color deck that landbase is dogshit, which makes the price point a joke.

Also Commodore Guff is a character we never needed to see again, he's literally Gary Stu with lame 4th wall breaking puns thrown in for character 'depth'. Card is fine, but they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if this is who they're digging out of the lore.

[TheGildedGoose]

Dragons

Sir, this is an Abzan Enchantressish deck, not a Dragon deck, for which I am immensely excited.

[toctheyounger]

Dragons

Sir, this is an Abzan Enchantressish deck, not a Dragon deck, for which I am immensely excited.

Ah yeah my bad, spoiler overload.

Honestly though, abzan stan here too, Tayam represent. It's gonna take something pretty spectacular to get me jazzed for it. It's not exactly new territory, Abzan has had all the makings for some time now.

[Mookie]

My personal hype level for the new decks:

Eldrazi > Enchantress >> a ham sandwich >> Slivers = Superfriends

...my hype for enchantress is largely due to my cube - I have an abzan enchantments subtheme, so I'm very happy to finally have Anikthea, Hand of Erebos (or maybe another new legend) as a 3C signpost. Hype for the Eldrazi deck is very real though - I'm expecting lots of colorless / artifact fatties for Animar, Thada, and Sharuum.

(not that I'm actually planning to buy a precon, but hopefully some of the new singles are worth picking up)

[Ruiner]

I'm not a big fan of Guff Rewrites History. Having to target every player, including yourself, with no possibility to wiff, unlike Chaos Warp, makes it feel like a pretty major gamble. I get for it to be what I'd want it would need to be more than 3 mana of course, but I can see this backfiring or being dead in a number of cases.

[pokken]

I am just hoping the other enchantress commander is more interesting. Anikthea is just...too signposty

[yeti1069]

I've been wanting to build a sliver deck for a long while, but other decks have been more pressing, and not owning any of the 5C Legendaries meant I'd need to plunk down a big chunk of cash to start the deck. The idea of a slivers precon had me kind of excited initially, but the deck itself doesn't look that appealing. Certainly not for the price.

[RxPhantom]

These precons are a joke so far. They're charging an obscene amount for what is perhaps marginally better than what they've been churning out for years.

[5colorsrainbow]

I like the planeswalker cards, I'm finding I like how some creatures and such help support walkers which helps them play more of a role in the deck then just blocking for the walker. The bird one partially is fun since its a way to have combats when most of what you care getting out are non-creature walkers.

I have a WBG non-commander deck I'm hoping singels will be cheap to get and I'm wanitng to get the coloreless deck since that is a deck type that needs a bit of help (outside of making it artifacts).

Also Commodore Guff is a character we never needed to see again, he's literally Gary Stu with lame 4th wall breaking puns thrown in for character 'depth'. Card is fine, but they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if this is who they're digging out of the lore.

To be fair he was one of the nine titans which is the highest requested characters to get cards who haven't yet. And in a way yea they are scraping the barrel as they have already gotten a number of oldwalker characters.

That said I hate Guff, as you said he is a actually Gary Stu (and not the buzzword version of Mary/Gary Sue people like to use) and why I can't take the first Phyrexian War too seriously as an story arc in magic.

[duducrash]

Eldrazi > Enchantress >> a ham sandwich >> Slivers = Superfriends

Which kind of ham sandwich we talking about? some are pretty high praise.

This product is intended to be drafted? I'm unsure way some chase lower rarity cards don't see more reprints. I want to get a playset of Kuldotha Rebirth and cant justify that much for a common. Same to Relic of Progenitus

[Mookie]

I am just hoping the other enchantress commander is more interesting. Anikthea is just...too signposty

Eh, I think Anikthea is relatively open-ended. You'll want to do something with enchantments, and probably some graveyard stuff... but there are a number of possible directions. You could go heavy on self-mill / Entomb effects and try to reanimate big enchantments, Parallel Lives / populate for token synergies, zombie tribal with the various and zombies, self-sacrificing enchantments like Khalni Heart Expedition and sagas, ways to flicker Anikthea, actual enchantress with Eidolon of Blossoms and friends, enchantment creature beatdown.... she provides more direction than Tayam, Luminous Enigma, but there is still a fairly large space to explore.

(populating token copies of Doubling Season / Song of the Worldsoul is probably the silliest thing you can do though)

[yeti1069]

Not sure why I can't get the image to load.

Narci, Fable Singer looks interesting. Could be a standalone saga commander, a major support piece in Tom Bombadil, or a leader of some other enchant-sac strategy.

[pokken]

Eh, I think Anikthea is relatively open-ended. You'll want to do something with enchantments, and probably some graveyard stuff... but there are a number of possible directions. You could go heavy on self-mill / Entomb effects and try to reanimate big enchantments, Parallel Lives / populate for token synergies, zombie tribal with the various and zombies, self-sacrificing enchantments like Khalni Heart Expedition and sagas, ways to flicker Anikthea, actual enchantress with Eidolon of Blossoms and friends, enchantment creature beatdown.... she provides more direction than Tayam, Luminous Enigma, but there is still a fairly large space to explore.

(populating token copies of Doubling Season / Song of the Worldsoul is probably the silliest thing you can do though)

My main complaint is that it's just more graveyard shenanigans really. There're a lot of ways to build it but most of the strength of enchantments as an archetype is built around either storm (Eidolon of Blossoms )or graveyard shenanigans (Replenish) or both, and I wouldn't mind if there were...something else.

I feel like I've mostly explored graveyard decks, and I'm kinda filled up on that design already.

I wouldn't say not to just an abzan enchantress effect though, tbh. Tuvasa the Sunlit was pretty fun with the whole Leyline of Anticipation theme, and Kestia, the Cultivator was solid too in her own way.

I really l ike Zur, Eternal Schemer as an angle on the archetype that is more Parallax Wave and Opalescence which is something I enjoy too

:shrug: Also, 5 mana is annoying.