Zurzoth, Chaos Rider BURRRN!!!

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PrimevalCommander
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Come and join me on a journey building a EDH Burn deck that has mid-late game play-ability in a multiplayer setting. This is my first decklist post, so I apologize in advance for any formatting issues. This is one of the more unusual lists I've put together and interesting enough I thought I'd put a decklist and document the build due to its unique play style. I saw a deck played on youtube and thought it an interesting play pattern and inspiration took hold. What if we took everything that dealt damage when a creature did literally anything, ETB, attack, die, sacrifice, block(?) ? What if we took that damage and added 1-4 points to it every time it triggered?

What the deck wants to do is make devils, and turn those devils into Lightning Bolts and Lava Axes of death. If you so much as breath on a devil token, I want it to hurt. My vision is to build up a board of various burn pieces that looks small individually, but can add up to a real clock if left alone. Burn abilities include "When a creature dies: deal 1", "sac a creature: deal 1", "creature etb: deal 1 (or 2)", "small creature attacks: deal 1", "creatures gain Tap: deal 2". Each of these can start to pile up into a large amount of damage. Pair that with a multiplier that adds 1 (or 2) damage from all red sources, and a devil token can start flinging damage around and seriously threaten life totals.

Weaknesses:
Zurzoth being a 2/3 with no evasion or protection leaves him vulnerable. Luckily he only cost 3, so casting him 3 times a game should be a reasonable feat. Still the deck wants him in play to make devils so those devils can trigger other burn engines. Without Zurzoth, our engine of devils has no fuel and our burn cards don't do near as much.

Draw can become a problem. With red and artifact draw, we should be able to keep enough cards in hand to be relevant, however the big problem I am encountering is the random discard tied to Zurzoth's draw trigger. The randomized discard that we will be dealing with essentially every turn creates a use-it-or-lose-it situation with our better cards. This is counter intuitive to tight play patterns where we want to cast our spells on second main phase after we see the additional cards. Of course the same goes for our opponents, which is its own reward :grin: . Either way, the randomized discard has been the largest hurdle of the deck in terms of play patterns. Holding our Chaos Warp for that ONE threat on turn 8 is not going to happen statistically if we draw it early, and Conspiracy Theorist and Containment Construct are only 2 cards in 99.

Small becomes big: Our devils only attack for 1, and die to ping for 1. Not very threatening at the start. The deck relies on other burn pieces to add up over time. If our opponents catch on to this, and get our damage multipliers, or other engine pieces, our devils revert back to measly 1/1's until we rebuild.

This is NOT a high power list, just a deck that wants to make devils die and make it hurt. Easy to disrupt, but hopefully enough redundancy in the various abilities to pop off now and then. Lets get into the list and I'll try to call out some of the flavor-choices and other stuff I just thought would be fun. Let me know if you have any comments, questions, or recommendations for fun burn cards that might fit into the deck
Zurzoth
Approximate Total Cost:

Few different burn related cards. Low tier burn cards just to add fire to the fuel. Irencrag Pyromancer did 15+ damage over a few turns since Zurzoth guarantee's a trigger every turn.

Dark-Dweller Oracle
Hobblefiend (cut)
Thermopod (cut)
On-theme or low-tier Sac Outlets so we can fling our devils at opponents whenever we want. Ashnod's altar notably excluded.

Devilish Valet
This should become an 8 power trampler (with haste) if devils attack 3 players with Zurzoth out. 16 power if we played another creature before combat. Just a big beater that is on-theme creature type.

Land Count: I started at 36 lands, which is my go-to for every deck. The amount of looting or rummaging I do leads to plenty of opportunities for land drops. I dropped it to 35 and added Hazoret's Monument as another looter + mana rock.

Favorite Cards:
Containment Construct / Conspiracy Theorist give card advantage to Zurzoth's trigger. Great early game plays
Temple Bell help me trigger Zurzoth more often. Honorable mention to the two lands that do similar things.
Alhammarret's Archive Turns looting and rummaging, which we play a LOT of, into card advantage. Added more tutors so I can find this card
Goblin Bombardment just makes it so easy to fling damage around with abandon. Peak Zurzoth with this in play.
I don't yet have a favorite burn enabler besides Bombardment, but I really want to see Furystoke Giant in action. I have a feeling it will be hilarious.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Cards that need to be added.
Geier Reach Sanitarium triggers opponents to draw outside their turn, creating more devils for us.
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea triggers opponents to draw outside their turn, creating more devils for us.
Temple Bell triggers opponents to draw outside their turn, creating more devils for us.
Shared Animosity turns our little devils into legitimate threats
Alhammarret's Archive allows us to net cards of Zurzoth to mitigate the randomized discard. All our rummaging/looting also nets cards with this.
Impact Tremors I didn't stock up on these early and find they are a bit high for a common, so it's on the to-buy list eventually. I may have an extra somewhere.
Soul-Scar Mage turns our incidental burn damage into wither damage with lasting effects if the damage isn't lethal. Cool piece for

Maybe board
Gratuitous Violence our creatures do the majority of the damage, but 5 mana is high. I'll need to play test to determine if we need stickier damage multipliers.
Vicious Shadows: old throwback wincon in token decks. Quite effective and waiting on the sidelines should I have trouble closing out games.

Cut List
Change of Fortune seen this twice and both times I couldn't combine it with enough discard to net enough cards off it. This will become Alhammarret's Archive when I get one.


My first couple games with this deck were interesting. The randomized discard created a rift in how I normally play commander. No longer can I sandbag good cards and wait till the right moment. I have to get them out before they get discarded due to mono-red's poor ability to interact with the graveyard. I need about 4 more copies of Containment Construct to make the deck really purr. First game I was able to tutor Torbran, Thane of Red Fell and stick it on the board for 2 turn cycles with some devils Spiteful Prankster, and Irencrag Pyromancer and was flinging damage like a pro. Every devil that got blocked in combat dealt 9 total damage after Prankster trigger, and on my combat step the Pyromancer was hitting for 5. Pretty fun stuff until Torbran got answered and everything dropped to 1 damage again :cry: . Making more devils will become a priority, so the inclusion of a few hug style draw engines will help with that. Maximum effort could yield 9 devils per turn cycle at maximum with 3 opponents, unlikely, but 5 per cycle is definitely doable with Zurzoth making 3 on my turn and Temple Bell or one of the lands making 2 on an opponents end step.

Second game was a failure to launch. All my interesting cards got targeted early, and Zurzoth got hated on due to the random discard not being appreciated by my opponents. I sputtered out with 2 lands and 2 rocks in hand as I tried to run out all the good cards ahead of Zurzoth's trigger. Hence the addition of Hazoret's Monument over a mountain.

I can see the deck being weak to removal, but Zurzoth being cheap to cast I'm hoping I can make something else look more threatening until I have enough pieces in play to blast someone in the face as mutually assured destruction. Otherwise I'll be perfectly content throwing around Lightning Bolt at everyone and deterring attackers with my 1/1 land mines.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Two games this past weekend emphasized the need for 3 of the cards on my wish list.
Shared Animosity
Alhammarret's Archive
Temple Bell
I can filter through cards and loot/rummage for days, but getting ahead on cards is darn difficult to do right now. I have 3-4 wheel effects, but finding them, or even holding on to them, is unreliable.

Game 1 I was outmatched by a couple of higher powered decks. I was just playing up so I could get some experience with the deck. Tatyova, Benthic Druid durdle engine, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and one that escapes me. I took a slow hand and had trouble getting Zurzoth into combat to kickstart my devil train. If I can't sneak in 2 attacks before the early game blockers come down I have a bit of trouble making devils. More of a side effect of the commander and if it continues to be a problem I'll need to look closer into fixing that. Not much to tell since it was a bit of a failure to launch. My Chaos Warp got discarded randomly to Zurzoth before I could fire it at a relevant target. Everyone seemed to ignore Tatyova and they proceeded to vomit 1/2 their library onto the table...the end.

Game 2 against budget Urza, Lord High Artificer, Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign, and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Much faster hand with turn 2 Zurzoth off Ancient Tomb. Yennett droped turn 2 Mindcrank, which didn't bother me until my two best wheels got milled on turn 3 and turn 4 by Ancient Tomb damage. This time the devils started rolling in. Ulamog and Urza didn't mount much of an early game defence, which let me build devils in the early game. Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign started dropping flyers and domed me for 10 after a couple attacks. Not a bit deal except I cut myself down another 10 with Ancient Tomb. I politiced *whined* my way out of another aerial assault and slowed down on Ancient Tomb for a bit. Urza was durdling for a bit and dropped Basalt Monolith, Ulamog was ramping hard, and Yennett was pumping out flyers, so I take a Gamble on some Shenanigans, which got discarded by Gamble. No worries, attack with Zurzoth, Chaos Rider and dredge Shenanigans in response to the draw... not so fast, Ulamog didn't like that and Tormod's Crypt my graveyard to protect his ramp. No mention of the combo piece on one side and 10+ power in artifact flyers on the other. I play Torbran, Thane of Red Fell and things get interesting. Zurzoth trigger made Urza discard Rings of Brighthearth, so we dodged a bullet there. My 1/1 devils start trading with Yennett's large flyers, every block becomes a 2 for 1 due to the free Lightning Bolt. Too bad I didn't have any other damage dealers to really put the hurt on. By this time I had about 8-10 devils, but only 1/1's. Torbran ate an Ulamog trigger and that was the only damage multiplier I saw all game. Luckily the poor threat assessment of the table paid off since I didn't take the first Ulamog hit, and that kicked off a feud between Ulamog and Yennett. I was able to build up about 14 devil tokens but no way to make them lethal. Without my wheels I was stalled on 2 cards in hand with no way to increase it. Geier Reach Sanitarium helped me add an additional 2 devils per turn cycle. Eventually the table got low on life, Urza never made anything happen, Ulamog and Yennett beat each other down until they both eventually scooped. Win for me...I guess.

Review:
Game 2 was really fun, and exactly how I built the deck to perform. There are a few holes that can be shored up for next outing. Early Zurzoth is key to getting devils. Once I get 3 devil tokens, I can attack each player and replace them at minimum. Eventually I net a few extra devils and they start adding up. I need ways to make players draw outside their turn. Remarkably no one drew a single card outside their turn each game besides from Zurzoth. I wasn't watching super close, but I did make a mental note throughout the game that no one was doing much instant speed drawing. Temple Bell and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea will come in to help with this. Yes they give my opponents cards, but I don't think I mind if I'm drawing too. It's just parity for the table, so nothing too lopsided, and I make more devils. Geier Reach Sanitarium did great work. With all the looting and rummaging I'm doing Alhammarret's Archive will be a shoe in. This will help me overcome the random discard and start filling my hand so I can gain velocity in the mid-game. Shared Animosity will be my overrun effect so make my swarm of devils more lethal. Adding 1 or 2 damage to 10 1/1's is not enough to kill the table. Making them all 10/1's is.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Gave Review: 3 player game unfortunately.

Zurzoth BURN vs Zaffai, Thunder Conductor spells (my brother, who is still learning magic) vs Ayara, First of Locthwain aristocrats (my buddy who is very experienced).
Live the dream and get Mana Crypt opening hand for a T1 Zurzoth. Immediately start making a few devils, though only 2 per turn with only 2 opponents. Loose Torbran, Thane of Red Fell to random discard before I hit my 3rd mountain on turn 3, dang. I don't see one of my draw engines or Containment Construct effects, so cards start to dwindle by turn 6 or so. I hit Angrath's Marauders on turn 5 which quickly eats removal. Turn 7 I Underworld Breach for Torbran, Thane of Red Fell as a mono-red Regrowth, which also immediately eats removal. At that point my only damage multipliers have been thoroughly destroyed and my only card advantage engine Dark-Dweller Oracle ALSO ate spot removal. So I'm durdling for 3 turns holding mountains in hand trying to draw relevant top decks before Ayara, First of Locthwain closes out the game with life drain.

Conclusion: MOAR CARD DRAW. And good god did everyone hate on the mono red deck. Sucks that Zaffai, Thunder Conductor wasn't doing much all game which allowed mono black to shoot every spot removal spell my way to keep me down all game. And he knows just how to do it too. I may bump up the wheel effects over time as well. I'm playing 2.5 right now and I think there is room for at least 1 more. Wheel of Misfortune sounds like a lot of fun.

Action:
IN - Mechanized Warfare. New from Brother's war, this will be another damage multiplier for my devils. Very happy to see this.
OUT - Oblivion Stone. I have seen this several times and always feels dead. This deck cannot hold cards for long periods waiting for the board to stall.

IN - Mind's Eye. Zurzoth triggers all my opponents to draw on my turn, which means I can get cards faster and more of them with this than usual.
OUT - Insurrection. Love the card, but again only good when you can sand bag it for the right moment, and this deck cannot do that.

IN - Rose Room Treasurer will give my treasures every turn and should provide opportunity for more burn/interaction just with Zurzoth devils. Great include.
OUT - Anger. My devils don't benefit from haste, and while it would be good for the rest of the deck, I think Rose Room Treasurer just does way more for the deck. I need more ways to interact with the board, and Treasurer give opportunities for direct burn and the damage grows with my multipliers.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Played a couple games over the holidays with Zurzoth. One with 3 players, which are sub-optimal since I lose 33% of my devil production each turn, but I wanted to get some testing in.

Opponents: Tatsunari, Toad Rider enchantress + Mutates and Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor landfall
I drop Jeweled Amulet for turn 2 Zurzoth and I'm off to the races. Early Bag of Holding starts banking my discarded cards. Turn 5 Embermaw Hellion starts making my devils really hard to block, and I can start sneaking some damage through. Mid game I slow down and run low on cards, this happens if I don't find a draw engine. I get a Heraldic Banner in play and all my devils come off the bench now. Some get chump blocked, but Hellion makes the deaths start shocking things left and right. Tatsunari can't have that and Forestify's Zurzoth. This is a significant set back, but I still have 10 devils in play. Luckily I find a Mind's Eye to keep the cards flowing. Mind's Eye really helps my game, so I feel good about it coming in on the last change log. It draws me 3 cards on the first cycle, and 4 the next, so I'm back up to 7 cards baby! Things really heat up when I drop Torbran, Thane of Red Fell and have all my devils represent 5 damage in combat and 4 on death. I get one swing with this set up and again Tatsunari says "no hot soup for you" and Moonify's Torbran. Now with my two most potent engines under lockdown, and not many devils left after chumps, I still have Furystoke Giant in hand with about 5 creatures left in play. This could dome someone for 15 with Embermaw still in play, so I'm trying to finish off these guys who are both under 20 life. Obuun has had enough of losing life points and alpha strikes me with only 2 8/8 creatures and an Akroma's Will for 32 damage and I die. Tatsunari cleans up afterward with a 22/22 unblockable commander. Good game.

4 player game: Saskia the Unyielding, Urza, Chief Artificer precon, and Magnus the Red Big Spells
This was a LONG one, so I'll try to hit the highlights.
Opening hand Sol Ring allows turn 2 Zurzoth again, so I'm on cloud nine with 3 opponents and an early Zurzoth. My second attack I stupidly attack my friend who has a 5/2 trampler initiative guy hoping to swap initiative with him, but he blocks since he really LOVES to trade with commanders wherever possible. So lesson learned. This slows me down since I don't make any more devils for 2 more turns. Though it does lower my threat profile in the early game. Saskia enters and targets me for the ability (no surprise there) and my life total takes a hit in the mid game. Saskia plays Kitt Kanto, Mayhem Diva and starts manipulating combat, mainly having me taking flying trample damage since I cannot block flyers :\ . Zurzoth comes back and my devils start fiddling with the board, dying, and shooting things here and there. Soul-Scar Mage comes in and starts making my damage last a little longer. I miracle Reforge the Soul and am very happy with my next 7 cards. Next turn I hit a one-two punch of Purphoros, God of the Forge, swing with devils, hit opponents for 6 each, then drop Chandra's Incinerator with a Temple Bell in play. This interesting synergy lets me tap Temple Bell on an opponent's turn, make 2 devils. Purphoros will deal 4 damage to each opponent, Incinerator will then deal 12 damage to creatures in play and Soul-Scar Mage turns that into wither damage. About this time Saskia has been hit with some spot removal because he was making combat so difficult for the table, including a Chaos Warp from me on Saskia so I didn't die randomly. Magnus couldn't get a really good engine going, and Urza had to bail after doing some good work with artifact creature beatdown. With no answer for Purphoros, God of the Forge and the rest of my engine online, the other two scoop to me, as they were low on life and I had tons of devil blockers to hold out. Win for Z!

Takeaways: all the new cards are adding huge functionality to the deck. Card draw being the most important. Heraldic Banner is much more functional than Cursed Mirror, as it makes my devils much more threatening in combat for little investment. Mind's eye, while slow, is needed, and I can trigger it on my turn to get cards earlier than usual, which is cool. Haven't seen Alhammarret's Archive, but it's guaranteed to overperform. So far this deck is on an accelerated testing program and it really shows in the results. These two games I had a significant impact on the board and was able to interact at all points in the game. I will continue to look for card advantage engines to ensure I can keep cards flowing. Impulse draw seems to be better in this deck than usual due to the randomized discard making traditional card draw just as risky as impulse draw.

Card waiting to come in: Defiler of Instinct, but I'm waiting for an under performer to show itself before making any changes. Everything worked well this round.

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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 1 year ago

Looks really fun! Congrats to the last game!
I'm impressed how far mono red decks have come. With all the tools you can create a wide range of decks. It feels way more creative than the goodstuff mono white is getting recently.

A few thoughts:

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

cheonice wrote:
1 year ago
Looks really fun! Congrats to the last game!
I'm impressed how far mono red decks have come. With all the tools you can create a wide range of decks. It feels way more creative than the goodstuff mono white is getting recently.
Thanks for the suggestions. Very glad to have someone other than myself in the tread. :grin:

Wild Magic Surge I just picked up, so need to find a spot. Great removal spell for mono red. Tibalt's Trickery would also be good, but I'm not sure I could keep it in hand long enough to do work. War Room needs to be high priority, I just didn't grab many of those types of lands as they came out. I also need a Bonders' Enclave for another deck. Great pick!

Blood Moon is not my cup o' tea. Call me a land sympathizer. Now Manabarbs is in the sideboard and is much more spicy in my opinion. I actually probably need to try it out and see what happens. Price of Progress would feel hypocritical to me since I am usually the one with the greediest mana base at the table when I'm not playing mono.

Lightning Bolt is the most intriguing mention, as it would probably do quite well. One thing that I would have to think about is typically my devil pings can kill most anything under 4 toughness. But having Bolt with devils in play could help me scale to kill a larger threat. I think mainly I need help with pesky enchantments, where Wild Magic Surge gets the nod, along with Chaos Warp. I'll bring a copy of Bolt into the sideboard should the need arise.

Vicious Shadows is also in the sideboard, but high MV. Manabarbs would get a chance first. I have won games off of both, but barbs just seems like a fun card for this deck.
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cheonice
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Post by cheonice » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago

Thanks for the suggestions. Very glad to have someone other than myself in the tread. :grin:
Yeah, that's quite a problem sometimes. It feels like you're writing just for yourself.

Yep, Tibalt's Trickery is probably not good enough with all your random looting.
Lightning Bolt is great, but yesterday's card of the day Unholy Heat could do some serious work, too! (yep, saw your comment) You should probably track some games to check, if you can get Delirium online reliably. Maybe something more flexible like Abrade could fill this role as well. Maybe Shenanigans could be cut here.

I'm more of a mono-colour or shard player, so Price of Progress and Blood Moon feel more appropriate. Punish those pesky non-basic lands! On the other hand: Few cards feel more as BURN, SOCIETY, BURN! as Price of Progress.

You mentioned Vicious Shadows and Gratuitous Violence (in an earlier post). Just go all in and play Fiery Emancipation!

In my experience Manabarbs makes you public enemy no. 1 and your enemies will go for player removal instead of dealing with the enchantment. Not sure, if this is worth it. The same goes for Fiery Emancipation, but yeah... The sweetsweet damage!

Outpost Siege is probably not good enough, but have you considered Impact Tremors? In my Jinnie Fay, Jetmir's Second it's a very solid addition to Purphoros, God of the Forge.

Any thoughts on Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner? The pseudo-Wheel should be fairly easy to trigger and the unblockability is just icing on the cake.

Chain Reaction should probably be Blasphemous Act.

Volcanic Offering feels a bit overcosted and out of place.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

cheonice wrote:
1 year ago
Yep, Tibalt's Trickery is probably not good enough with all your random looting.
Lightning Bolt is great, but yesterday's card of the day Unholy Heat could do some serious work, too! (yep, saw your comment) You should probably track some games to check, if you can get Delirium online reliably. Maybe something more flexible like Abrade could fill this role as well. Maybe Shenanigans could be cut here.
More play testing is needed, but I'm going to keep Shenanigans for a bit since it has dredge and can return if I need more casts. So far with all the devil death triggers I throw around, I can usually slow board progression enough to stay in the game without actual removal spells. I will try to remember to check for delirium, but probably won't remember in-game :grin:
cheonice wrote:
1 year ago
You mentioned Vicious Shadows and Gratuitous Violence (in an earlier post). Just go all in and play Fiery Emancipation!

In my experience Manabarbs makes you public enemy no. 1 and your enemies will go for player removal instead of dealing with the enchantment. Not sure, if this is worth it. The same goes for Fiery Emancipation, but yeah... The sweetsweet damage!

Outpost Siege is probably not good enough, but have you considered Impact Tremors? In my Jinnie Fay, Jetmir's Second it's a very solid addition to Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Fiery Emancipation is one that I would love to cast, but I'm not interested at the current cost. Budget consideration more than power. I know there are a few pricey cards here, but those I've had for years now. Someone in RCOTD mentioned Urza's Saga, which would also be good, but I just don't want to pay the $$ for it right now. Impact Tremors is on the buy list, if I can find a spot for it I'll pull the trigger on another copy.

Manabarbs is sort of a griefer card, which is why it didn't make it into the first draft. It does draw attention, but honestly, this deck draws so much unwarranted attention from my opponents anyway (probably the random discarding), it probably wouldn't raise my overall threat profile as much as you would think. Because it is already artificially high compared to the relative power of the deck HAHA. This deck triggers some psychological response in my opponents with the random discarding, direct burn, combat math distortion from devils dying, and damage multipliers, that everyone seems to have me under a microscope anyway. Its a funny thing, and makes this deck all the more interesting to play. Those last two games were actually really fun since I didn't just sputter out mid game and got some burn engines going.
cheonice wrote:
1 year ago
Any thoughts on Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner? The pseudo-Wheel should be fairly easy to trigger and the unblockability is just icing on the cake.

Chain Reaction should probably be Blasphemous Act.

Volcanic Offering feels a bit over-costed and out of place.

Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner = Great pick, on the list and will surely get a spot. Exactly what this deck needs.

Blasphemous Act = your probably right. I didn't see any extra copies in my box and sort of forgot about it. I'll need to get another one.
Volcanic Offering = yeah, I had it in hand one game and didn't use it because it would have ham-stringed one player by killing a land that they were low on, only 2 opponents. This will come out for Wild Magic Surge as cheaper and more flexible removal. Doesn't 4 for 1 the table, but the collateral damage had me hesitate and that's not what I need.
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Post by rogerandover » 1 year ago

Chiming in here since I myself play mono-red burn. A whole lot different then yours (I like spells more then creatures), but still I might have some valid suggestions.. Also toyed with Zurzoth a while back and loves the chaos he brings!

If you want evasion for him, a nice little way is Key to the City. You could also go full blown chaos and add Bedlam. Else Goblin War Drums will also help you connect.

Have you thought about using some of the flashbacks? You might not have enough spells for Past in Flames to be worth it (though it is insanely good!), but Faithless Looting might be good and Seize the Day seems particularly good in your build.

If you're up for doublers, Furnace of Rath is a card, though I like Dictate of the Twin Gods more for the surprise element and it can end games out of the blue. There's also Repercussion and it's a combo-win with Blash-act (also a bit boring, but hey, sometimes you need to end games).

I did like Shenanigans, but it never preformed well for me. Vandalblast and Shattering Spree is the superior artifact removal.

I think you seriously need to consider running Drownyard Temple. And no love for Spinerock Knoll? Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass seems good too.

Hope you can use some of the suggestions.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

rogerandover wrote:
1 year ago
Chiming in here since I myself play mono-red burn. A whole lot different then yours (I like spells more then creatures), but still I might have some valid suggestions.. Also toyed with Zurzoth a while back and loves the chaos he brings!
Thanks for commenting!

Goblin War Drums: menace is nice, really helps get damage through. Noted.
Faithless Looting came to my mind, but I really want to go UP on cards where possible. I do plenty of "filtering" already. More Flashback would be fabulous, if there were some solid red spells that didn't lean to spell slinger. I don't think Seize the Day gives me much by only untapping one creature, and Zurzoth only triggers once per turn anyway.
Dictate of the Twin Gods is on my radar since I can flash it in for a big play. I am actively looking for ways to add damage to my triggers, and this is the next card in line. Thanks. The symmetrical nature of these gives me pause, so I'm looking for asymmetrical versions first to avoid backfire. Mechanized Warfare reads as a "doubler" since a lot of my damage is 1 at a time. Wonder if Gratuitous Violence does 90% of what Dictate does but only for me?
Shenanigans now had two detractors? How could this be? I'll watch it closely and bring in something different if it whiffs too much. My idea is that I get some cards churning and can dredge this back easily should the situation arise, rather than the one-shot nature of the others, despite the mass-destruction mode for Vandalblast and Shatterspree.
Drownyard Temple is probably a good add here. I have one and will slot it in! Gives me some "ramp" for my discards.
Spinerock Knoll now has 2 votes, so should probably come in as well. I can afford to cut a couple more Mountains.


Building up several cards for the next update. Lands mostly, but I like getting utility out of the land slots. Might be some weeks until I make another order, so don't expect the decklist to change for a while, but the bolded cards will get a spot once they are ordered or pulled from the box.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

I'm not really one for set reviews, but Solphim, Mayhem Dominus will be getting a spot in this deck. The Indestructible is one of the most difficult to achieve in mono-red, but having a damage multiplier with indestructible is probably worth the cost. I need more of these to boost my damage output and I really shy away from the symmetrical since my creatures are so small. Thermopod was basically a place holder for a better creature, and I think I have found it.

Also Defiler of Instinct is on the maybe board, but I need more testing to find the next weakest link in the mid costed creatures. Not sure we really need this card, but it helps with mana and damage, so the abilities are tempting.

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Post by rogerandover » 1 year ago

I've been eyeing Solphim too for my deck, even thought about making him the commander but it's damn hard to exchange Squee since I have so many fonds memories with him. But a doubler in the command-zone is pretty darn good. Well, Solphim will paint a pretty big target on your head, so I might be okay to just have him in the 99.

The effect on Defiler seems miniscule. I'm not sure how much more use you'll get from, that a Bolt couldn't handle. It might ping off some utility creatures, but it will eat removal before anyone will play down something x/1. Might be wrong though.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Probably right on Defiler, but if I have an under performing creature I'll give him a try. I was looking through the creatures, and with Thermopod coming out, Havoc Jester doesn't look too hot with only 3 sac outlets left in the deck.

Solphim in the command zone couldn't be worse than Torbran, Thane of Red Fell in the command zone, and it gains indestructible to boot, which is good for a commander.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Next batch of upgrades is coming in. Here is what is changing.

Drownyard Temple in for Ghitu Encampment. Drownyard will let me "ramp" from the GY

Solphim, Mayhem Dominus in for Thermopod. Thermopod is an overcosted sac outlet and mediocre all around. Was a place holder for a better card. Also since I don't seem to like symetrical damage doublers, I only had maybe 3 damage multipliers in the first draft, which for some reason I thought was higher. So now we are getting a couple more, along with the extra draw, we should be able to sling some significant damage next time out.

Professional Face-Breaker in for Pilgrim's Eye. I loose one of my few flyers, but Face-Breaker does the ramp thing and has card advantage potential. Card advantage is what I need most right now.

Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner in for Torch Fiend. I'm excited to see what Subira can do. Could be an MVP in this deck.

Wild Magic Surge in for Volcanic Offering. More efficient MV and hits more stuff. Last 2 times I saw Volcanic Offering, I didn't even want to cast it.

I still need a War Room [GOT ONE!] and I need to dig out my Spinerock Knoll but other than that, the deck is doing better on each outing. I'm really happy to be getting more mileage out of my creature slots, since the first draft had a lot of underperformers.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Found the Spinerock Knoll and put that in there for Winding Canyons or a mountain, can't remember.

Game Review: 4 player game. Zurzoth, Chaos Rider , Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor , Talrand, Sky Summoner , Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Only got 1 game in with Zurzoth unfortunately, but it was a good one. Zurzoth came out a bit slow on turn 3. No fast mana for the early game Zurzoth. Need to look into if M ana Vault is worth playing, but it would mostly be a Rite of Flame in practice. Anyway, I get a Conspiracy Theorist turn 4 and get lucky and discard a Goblin Bombardment to Zurzoth, so I cast that too. This sets me up in the early game to start making devils and fiddle with the board. Few turns go by and Obuun is building up a decent field. Talrand is kept down by Kambal who came out on turn 3 to start draining life. I left Kambal in play pretty much all game because my deck plays quite a few creatures and I want player's life totals low. I start banking devils where I can but the board is getting a little cluttered. Most devils I could accumulate was 8. I drop a Embermaw Hellion to start making them deal a bit more damage. Talrand didn't get the card draw they needed and mostly went under the radar, but I wasn't all that concerned. Obuun started getting Field of the Dead online around turn 6 and started making zombies. I took some tample damage but Obuun was the only one doing any legitimate combat damage.

Around this time I cast a tutored Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner and a Heraldic Banner and swung all my devils and a few other creatures and ended up getting 4 creatures through, activating Subira, discarding 2 and drawing 4. A turn after Embermaw came down Kambal decided that it was time for me to not be alive anymore and played Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose with several various lifegain triggers and pointed all of them at me. I was distracted by the cascade of gain and drain that I completely forgot to simply sac 2 devils to Goblin Bombardment and just deep fry Vito at instant speed. So after the dust cleared I went from 23 to 8 with Obuun having a large board right after me. I untap and swing all out at Kambal leaving him at 16 after having gained up to low 40's on his last turn. Turn went around and Obuun left me alive at 4 as I had a few blockers. Talrand pops me for 3 flying leaving me at 1 and passes the turn. Right before Kambal untap I sac enough devils to Goblin Bombardment to burn him out. Cost me all but 1 devil token. One of my Subira draws was a Angrath's Marauders so on my turn I cast that, Chandra's Incinerator came out the previous turn, swing out at Obuun (17 life), make 2 devils, sac them immediately to bombardment and deal 12 direct damage and 12 to his blockers. The rest of the team hits for lethal. Talrand was the punching bag of the table, her life was in the single digits so I simply saced creatures for direct burn to win the game. Obuun had 2 board wiped discarded to Zurzoth triggers, so luck was on my side.

Card review
Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner is great. Only got 4 cards off it, but I was satisfied with that and it made Zurzoth unblockable, which is very important as well. Solid A for this deck. I think this was the only new card I saw. No Solphim, Mayhem Dominus, no Mechanized Warfare, no War Room, but all of those cards are obvious inclusions. I had to tutor Subira with Imperial Recruiter, which was perfect having a powerful draw option in a tutorable creature. I wanted to see Professional Face-Breaker too, but maybe next time.
Last edited by PrimevalCommander 5 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 10 months ago

Bought some cards, time to upgrade

Mines of Moria for a mountain. I won't go below 20 mountains, but I still have 1 left for the next good utility land. Vesuva is on the watch list as well. Mines is a decent little land that lets me use my largely useless graveyard. Nothing amazing, but potentially more treasures to feed Professional Face-Breaker?
City on Fire for Chandra Ablaze, I don't like taking out draw, but I have been adding a lot of lower mana value draw stuff and this one is high and doesn't really get me a bunch of cards. It messes with opponents draws, but so do my other 2 wheels. I needed room for City on Fire without killing my curve.
Reckless Handling for Shenanigans because everyone told me Shenanigans was bad and I need as many copies of Alhammarret's Archive and Skullclamp as I can get. Random discard is rough, but I have a handful of ways to save it from the GY. I hope my artifact hate has not been dwindled too far. It may have to come back in if I have trouble on that front in the future. Shenanigans was an easily recurrable answer to any artifact stuff.

My number of damage multipliers is now about where I want it. With 6 of them, and the extra draw stuff, I should be able to build a critical mass of burn in the late game. Board wipes really hurt this deck, but I will make it HURT when it happens :madhot: I try not to overextend once I get a bunch of devils made because I know someone will wipe. I think there is still potential for improvement in the creature slots, but I am in no hurry to yank anything out. I will let the deck tell me what it needs. Havoc Jester is the one I think is the weakest. If it doesn't perform next time I see it, Defiler of Instinct will get a chance.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 9 months ago

Game Review:

4 player game. Me, Saskia the Unyielding, Shorikai, Genesis Engine vehicles, and Magnus the Red spells.

Early game I get a quick start. Turn 2 Zurzoth off Ancient Tomb into turn 3 Purphoros, God of the Forge and life totals start dropping fast. I Imperial Recruiter for Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner like last game, but the night was getting late so I didn't optimize my Subira turn as much as I could. I ended up not activating Subira even though I had the mana to do so. Could have gotten 4-5 cards off it by making enough devils unblockable to get through blockers. I settled for waiting a turn to untap with 6 devils + 3 other creatures for a real nice wheel next turn.

The rest of the players were setting up. Saskia plays a Brash Taunter turn 4 and I don't think much of it. Shorikai starts ramping hard with mana rocks and plays some vehicles. Imposter Mech copying Zurzoth, Chaos Rider on turn 3 just for LOL's I think. But he wanted some devil blockers to repel my Zurzoth attacks and make it difficult for me. Magnus hits me a couple times with the commander for triggers and to keep my life total as low as the rest of the table. We are all in the mid 20's by turn 5 thanks to Purphoros and Ancient Tomb :) .

Saskia turns out to be a pseudo burn deck as he cast Molten Disaster for 5 to wipe the board and deal me the extra 5 from Brass Taunter. I now really wish I activated Subira because I only have 3 lands and a Angrath's Marauders in hand. My devils shoot Saskia the Unyielding in the face and we proceed. Turn 6 Shorikai, Genesis Engine loses almost nothing being all vehicles so he untapps and drops a bit 10/10 collosus as a blocker and crewer. Magnus swings at me again I think to get another token, but is generally flooding out on permanents and can't find the draw spells to keep his game progressing. He is just looking for some gas.

My turn doesn't amount to much. I draw another Mountatin, replay Zurzoth and hope for the best. Saskia goes for blood and cast Arcbond on Brash Taunter and fights the 10/10 collosus. 40 potential damage going to bring the entire table to single digits, with 1 player dead. Magnus gets spooked and instead of negotiating for the Taunter trigger to kill his chosen opponent, just Reality Shifts the taunter. After that Vehicles goes on the offensive. With no interaction thrown his way and completely dodging the Molten Disaster earlier, he suits up some Vehicles and kills me. Granted since all other players were at exactly 9 life and Purphuros was still in play. Magnus sorta gets going by casting Shark Typhoon and Invoke Calamity for a respectible field of flyers, but only 2 can attack and it's not enough to kill Shorikai. Saskia is all but spent so Vehicles mops up the other players by turn 7 or 8.

Conclusion: Quick game time and turn wise. I was happy with Zurzoth, and I know it is a glass cannon deck. Should I have done my Subira turn better I would have had more gas and maybe a little more action on my last turn. Probably not enough for a win, but you never know. No issues with any of the cards I saw. Wish I had a Shenanigans in my hand this game :smirk:

Changes:
Out Havoc Jester >> In Sun-Crowned Hunters. I remembered that this card is pretty good with pingers and is essentially a damage tripler. Jester felt out of place even though I have never seen it. I like the Hunters much better in theory, so we will try that out.
Out Armillary Sphere >> In Lightning Greaves. Need protection for Zurzoth, and if I can't get him out turn 2, then at least I can get him out turn 3 with haste. Sometimes turn 2 with haste if I'm lucky.
Last edited by PrimevalCommander 5 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 7 months ago

Wilds of Eldraine Reprint of FIERY EMANCIPATION|85932 down to $3.00 means it now gets a spot. 2 enchantments that deal triple damage now really sets off the mission of the deck to make devil tokens deal tons of damage. Angrath's Marauders is too much mana and too fragile for the threat profile. Easy swap there. I also picked up an Impact Tremors, which may be better than one of the attack-for-damage enchantments, but I'm not making that change just yet.

The deck is still excruciatingly weak to removal and board wipes, but such is life for a 2/3 commander with no protection or evasion. Zurzoth's stat line is laughably bad considering the rate of many other legends. Look at the new Breeches, Eager Pillager. I would love for Zurzoth to be 3/3 first strike.

Also newly spoiled Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might is a windmill slam into this deck depending on his monetary price. I can't believe I get quadruple damage for only 4 mana :love:

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 5 months ago

Game Report, long one so apologies in advance. Sort of a lower powered game.

Zurzoth, Chaos Rider + Rin and Seri, Inseparable cat/dog tribal + Narci, Fable Singer auras + Teysa Karlov aristocrats
I had a good, but slow hand. Turn 2 Bag of Holding and turn 3 Zurzoth saw the board pretty crowded already, and I went first. I did get an attack in, but my buddy was on to me from the get go. Rin/Seri was playing some good cats, but Narci Enchantments was not having any of that. Ren got hit with early removal while Teysa and Narci did some build up in the early game. Zurzoth gets some attacks in, but my hand starts dwindling quickly, I can't get enough devils to accumulate, so I'm only making 1 token a turn. Luckily Bag of Holding is under the radar and storing up some cards for me. Teysa plays Skullclamp to get some card draw going and Ren plays Alms Collector to shut that down. I play Goblin Bombardment but don't have the creature count to do any real damage. Narci plays Grasp of Fate hiding Ren, Clamp, and Bombardment under it. Ren let the commander get exiled to the enchantment due to a hefty amount of spot removal that never came.

Teysa gets the commander + Vindictive Lich to spread some hate around the table. I end up with 0 cards in hand, but have mana to crack BoH and fill up my hand with 6 previously discarded cards to keep me going. I luck into Mind's Eye after using Vesuva to copy Narci's Cabal Coffers, with an active Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. So I drop that, swing with some devils and draw some cards :grin: . I miss a chance to make 2 devil tokens when Alms Collector triggered on 2 opponents which triggers Zurzoth to make devils. That was the only point Zurzoth triggered without me making it happen :madhot: . Figures I'd miss the only trigger the whole game. At this point I'm still struggling to get any devils going and Zurzoth has gotten removed 3 times. My Vesuva Coffers helps keep Zurzoth in play, but it have to tutor for a Geier Reach Sanitarium just to make enough devils to be relevant. Narci has Starfield of Nyx and starts getting spicy with blinking and animating enchantments. Mainly targeting Ren since Ren just dropped one of the Ajani's that pumps his field with +1/+1 counters. So his cats and dogs are getting big and scary.

We are now over 2hr heading to 3hrs on this game and life totals are getting low. I have not seen a damage multiplier yet, only City on Fire got exiled to Professional Face-Breaker when I didn't have the mana, and I've seen a full 30"% of my deck by now with all the rummaging and looting. I drop a Shared Animosity and manage to make enough devils with Sanitarium to present Lethal to Ren and Seri, who is building a commanding board. He fogs my combat with Seht's Tiger, but I still got some damage in on the other guys. How I am still alive is probably because of the lack of real threat profile I have mustered all game. Now with 5-6 devils and Animosity, I'm looking to clean this up, until Ren plays Austere Command naming small creatures and Artifacts. This take out the following from my board Zurzoth, 6 devils, Phyrexian Altar, Mind's Eye, Alhammarret's Archive and Face-Breaker. 3hrs in, eventually Ren kills Narci and turns off my coffers. I try to save him to no avail, and he Whitemane Lions Seht's Tiger back since his life is at 8. So he has insurance against me. Teysa has been quietly doing his thing. Threat profile also low, no splashy plays or impressive boosts in output, but now with life totals low, he stands to get something done. Casts Junji, the Midnight Sky and enchants with Gift of Immortality (new addition), sacrifices to have each opponent lose 2 life and discard 2 cards. I lose Mechanized Warfare before I could cast it. Junji comes back and he passes turn. Gift returns and he repeats on my turn, Junji + Gift returns again, and he can sacrifice it on my End step to finish off Ren and I'm just clean up with no cards in hand and no way to present a viable threat.

While the game report looks like I didn't do much, describing a 3hr game in text is not practical. But my highlights were Mind's Eye + Alhammarret's Archive, which was throttled by Alms Collector. Shared Animosity allowed 6 devils and Zurzoth to attack for 50 damage, throttled by Seht's Tiger. Glint-Horn Buccaneer + Vesuva-Coffers/Urborg for big looting + pinging. And Geier Reach Sanitarium helping me make more devils per turn cycle. Alhammarret's Archive rocks, finally saw it in action. Professional Face-Breaker is solid value creature and I got to use Mines of Moria to make some treasures for extra impulse draw. Overall the deck did well. If I had found 1 damage multiplier and time to cast it, it may have been a different outcome. Having to play the entire game 1 damage at a time was very difficult.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 2 months ago

Couple changes that I am excited about. These are cards I have been watching and their prices have about hit their floor.

IN Brazen Cannonade >> OUT Raid Bombardment. Similar cards, but Cannonade adds some impulse draw and makes my creatures less attractive to block.
IN Spiteful Banditry >> OUT Chain Reaction. Similar cards, but Banditry adds some treasure making and can be cast early if I don't want to wipe as a ramp piece. Less immediately effective as a sweeper, but I'll take that chance for now to see if Banditry pulls it's weight.

Edit: more changes. Taking out slow mana for fast mana in attempts to get Zurzoth out on turn 2 or before.
In Chrome Mox >> Out Mind Stone
In Mana Vault >> Out Everflowing Chalice
In Pyretic Ritual >> Out Wayfarer's Bauble
In Jeska's Will >> Out Silverclad Ferocidons, too much mana, and a buddy wanted it anyway.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 month ago

Game Review
Game 1, 4 player game: Zurzoth, Pantlaza, Sun-Favored, Teysa Karlov, and Frodo, Sauron's Bane
I had a slow start only getting Zurzoth in play on turn 3. Turn 4 Pantlaza casts a dino that does the banishing light thing for each opponent hitting both Zurzoth and Frodo. I just do some set up cracking an Expedition map for Geier Reach Sanitarium. Next turn Frodo cast Baleful Mastery and lets dinos draw off it, so he gives Frodo back and bins Zurzoth. I recast immediately and it eats removal again. At this point I pivot and forget about Zurzoth for a bit. This allows everyone else to forget about me. I tutor Alhammarret's Archive with Reckless Handling and start looting as fast as I can with Sanitarium. This goes on for 3 turns while I sculpt a hand with Solphim, Mayhem Dominus, City on Fire, Fiery Emancipation, and Fiery Confluence. I had cast a Mechanized Warfare just to get it out of my hand, but otherwise I wasn't doing much. I cast Zurzoth and loot 1 time to make 2 devils. Pantlaza has a Dino DNA and eats my Magmatic Force and immediately makes one. Magmatic Copy gets killed pretty quick, but on the next round he eats a Elenda, the Dusk Rose and makes one of those too. Then turns one of the little copy dinos into another Elenda. So I'm staring down two 6/6 Elendas wondering how this Fiery Confluence is going to save me. I was planning on casting Confluence to wipe the board of creatures, but I'm doing the math and seeing a line that might just be better :evil: . I top deck into Mana Vault and it's time to make my move. Forget the Elenda's, lets burn the dino forest down. I activate Sanitarium again for 3 more devils, 6 devils total now. Cast Vault, cast Solphim, convoke City on Fire for , and drop Confluence for 2 damage to opponents twice, and 1 damage to creatures. This turns the direct burn into 26 damage and the devil damage to 7. Frodo dies on the spot, Dinos drops to ~9 and eats 2 devil triggers to finish him off. Teysa was over 40 life, so he takes the rest and drops to 5. He has no creatures in play and cannot remove my damage multipliers. He drops a blocker for Solphim (indestructible), but I have the Underworld Breach for Confluence to close it out.

Game 2, 5 player game: Zurzoth, Kethis, the Hidden Hand lifegain, Pantlaza, Sun-Favored (different player), Atraxa, Praetors' Voice +1/+1, and Teysa Karlov (same player).
I came out of the gates swinging this round. The fast mana I added is paying off. Chrome Mox turn 2 to cast Zurzoth before other players could set up. Turn 3 I made a devil and cast some set up cards. Turn 4 Atraxa casts a Forgotten Ancient which is a big counter engine for them, but not much I can do about it right now. I Gamble up a Alhammarret's Archive again, but it gets discarded by the Gamble with 6 cards in hand, so 15% chance :cussing:. That's alright, I have a Wheel of Fortune for next turn, so I dump a few little cards, Bag of Holding and Hissing Iguanar, which scared Atraxa apparently. Atrxa gets cast and starts proliferating counters. Atraxa's field is getting big, but I have blockers. My turn I cast Wheel of Fortune and draw into some lands and a Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner. I make some devils, attack Kethis who is not doing much, and pass turn. Teysa is playing some token makers, Skullclamp, and drawing some cards. This is a slower Aristocrats deck, so I'm not worried just yet. Pantlaza, Sun-Favored is ramping and casts a Dino DNA, which eats an Ao, the Dawn Sky pretty quickly that was wheeled. Atraxa attacks Dinos for 12 commander damage to make sure he stays in check. My turn I have 5 devils and Zurzoth, I cast Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner, swing and activate. I had 3 lands in hand, but the Zurzoth trigger hits Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, but I follow through with Subira to wheel my hand into 6 new cards and hide all of my current hand under the bag of holding.

I now have 6 devils + Hissing Iguanar with Mikokoro, Center of the Sea to make me 4 more on my turn. I think this is turn 6 now and the turn passes around to Atraxa who gets spooked. I don't know if he saw the Torbran, but he knows he's 1 damage multiplier away from lethal devil burns if I so choose. So he pushes over enough counters onto Atraxa and says "bye bye Zurzoth". Maybe I should have dropped that Mana Crypt to go with my one open mountain and the Chaos Warp that Subira drew me into. But I honestly didn't expect Atraxa to TKO me on turn 6 in a 5-man pod when my field was Zurzoth, Bag, Lizard, and 6 devils. He said he "knows what Zurzoth can do with 6+ devils" and got scared that a multiplier would mean his doom. I mean, it's possible, but not probable. Even if I was likely to crack the bag and drop Torbran, Thane of Red Fell next turn for a potential 36 direct damage if a wrath came down ;) (not really since Torbran cannot increase the damage if he gets wrathed with everything else)

The other 4 players were all playing white, and 3 of them in , so as soon at Atraxa looked at the other players, removal was flying everywhere, Atraxa lost his commander, Toothy, Imaginary Friend, and Forgotten Ancient all within a turn or two. This slowed the game and I got to sit and watch for another 2 hours while they battled it out. I gave my buddy a hard time for that, and will continue to do so for some time.

Takeaways: The fast mana I added (edited into my previous post) has really helped me get Z out ahead of the blockers. This is my only real takeaway. I liked seeing Chrome Mox and Mana Vault, and while these cards are powerful, I don't think it makes Zurzoth the boogyman of the meta. Zurzoth is just so incredibly weak as a commander, but the deck is starting to become strong enough to support him. I now have to tune the power to not make the 99 too strong as to pull too much attention and make me a high profile target.

Post game card swap
IN Impact Tremors >> Out Magmatic Force. The force is TOO MUCH mana and impact tremors is more "impactful" for the mana cost.

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