Having Your Voice Heard

[Taleran]

Trying to turn this toward competitive players and not taking a step back and looking how all talk around all facets of MTG is how can I mamximize how can I get better at this or make my better or improve it in this way.

Laying at that of the feet of a group of people while smearing them with insults and acting all high and mighty about it is exactly ehat people are asking people to not do in this thread and that post is extremely %$#%.

[ElectricTuba]

Before content creators started to push people towards the idea of cEDH and it was realized as a subculture of it's own, we didn't have this level of divisiveness or heat directed at the RC, and it's getting tiring. There will always be different levels of competitiveness and opinion, but when you give something a label or umbrella for people to get under, they feel they have a right to protect it and stake a claim for their space. The problems with catering to cEDH aren't just about pubstomping. There will always be some difference in power level, play style and expectations. Those things can be handled with open communication. The real problem that has festered in the EDH community is creating an entire subculture around a mentality that lends itself to being assertive, overbearing and demanding despite fostering a mentality that goes in the face of the actual mission of the format; and, then deciding they should be included, too, despite an attitude and idea of how they want to play that is completely opposite of the format's mission statement. Oil and water don't go together, and just like you can't force them to work, there isn't a world where EDH and cEDH players are not constantly stepping on one another's toes with their needs.

Calling all of cEDH assertive, overbearing, and demanding is a very misleading generalization and is not constructive to this conversation.

I'm not sure why people who enjoy lower power play feel threatened by the sheer existence of high power groups... If people see high power play and are interested/want to make their decks stronger as well, that's fine. The impact of bans for the sake of high power play would be extremely small - see flash.

We can coexist!

[toctheyounger]

We can coexist!

FWIW I believe we can too. Are we going to step on each other's toes from time to time? Sure. Is every game going to go well? No. But fun is a subjective thing, communication is important, and combo/competitive play is just as valid in its own way as battlecruiser casual.

To my mind the angst likely comes from previous bad experiences of being hustled by some douche wanting to goldfish their cEDH build against easy beats. I've had it happen to me and it sucks, but I'm well aware most cEDH players worth their salt aren't interested in this and want an actual fight, so I don't think much of these guys, nor do I talk of them in the same breath as the majority of the cEDH community.

Again, this sort of thing comes down to communication to my mind. Even sitting down next to a random dude I never met before I can at least get them to give me a number out of 10. And as someone who games fairly hard within a casual context, I don't mind someone bringing a fairly competitive build to the table, so long as I can choose a deck that scales accordingly to the table. If I'm stuck with my jank vorthos Kresh Malazan build it's gonna be a bad time and I just won't bother. But this is a social game; I truly can't see a whole lot of situations where there genuinely isn't a couple minutes before shuffles to discuss expectations going in and adjust decks/game plans/expectations accordingly so that everyone walks away happy.

[pokken]

The angst from me is that many cedh players have expressed desires to have the RC change their approach to a degree I disagree with. Conflicting desires for the official rules are 100% my issue.

I think Flash is something of an exception that proves the rule.

(I can't imagine even a single example that compares to flash)

Tell me, of the cards on the current ban list how many do cedh players support? Then the average population? I think that would be pretty instructive to think about.


...and please for the love of all that's holy read that word "many" and if you're not part of that group don't feel lumped in.

[Taleran]

The angst from me is that many cedh players have expressed desires to have the RC change their approach to a degree I disagree with. Conflicting desires for the official rules are 100% my issue.

What exactly are you referring to here?

The idea that the RC does not ban for competitive metas is a thing that came from them and not something that was asked for and then taken into consideration, at least as far as I am aware.

"The RC doesn't ban for this" and other statements to that effect come from RC comments originally, so I am lost here.

[cryogen]

This casual vs. competitive mindset is one that has predated content creators. And I think that the heart of this issue two-fold: First you frustration when the two come together in games and the wins are lopsided and unfulfilling with one side saying "I'm just trying to have fun quit being a tryhard!" and the other saying "just get better" (gross generalization intended). The other is that you've had the Rules Committee unintentionally fanning this division by trying to spread their philosophy and having it be misinterpreted or taken too fanatically. Commander isn't that unlike religion, and if you look at Christianity you've got a bunch of people who supposedly all read the same book, but you end up with Catholics, Episcopalians, Mormons, Latter Day Saints, and the Westboro Baptist Church, among countless other interpretations. (And no I'm not trying to compare ANYONE that plays Commander to the WBC.)

[bubskee]

Despite what some folks think, the RC listens to as many voices in the Commander community as we can. One of the reasons we formed the CAG was to extend our reach. Still, it appears as though some folks feel as though their voices aren't being heard. I'd like to get your opinions on how you think that we might demonstrate to you that we're listening, especially when we do the thing that's not what you, the individual, want. It's easy to feel as though you weren't heard if a decision goes a way you don't like--but every decision is going to have people who dislike it. What would make you go "Well, they didn't agree with me, but at least I felt like they considered my position?"

Hey [mention]Sheldon[/mention]!

Thank you for all you do. I love EDH! I enjoy it with my partner and our close friends, with my father when we get to visit, and with strangers when I find the time. Thank you (and I extend my thanks to all the RC!) for fashioning and safekeeping this wondrous format. My longest-sleeved deck took inspiration from one of yours ("you did it to yourself!").

I think the formation of the CAG is already a great step, as is this kind of forum presence. Official RC/CAG presence on discord/reddit would be another (potentially) good step. Also, I would get a kick if you or anyone from the RC made an appearance on a youtube show like Game Knights or LabManiacs or Playing With Power and threw some cardboard around.

I appreciate the light touch approach that the RC has taken over the years, but as EDH is played with prize support that may need to be reevaluated. The philosophy document is all well and good, but 3 packs is 3 packs!!! :laugh:

I do not think the banlist is perfect, but that's alright -- I do think that this format is great.

Again, thank you. EDH is a joy.

[Hermes_]

Mormons, Latter Day Saints,

Are the same,

[ilovesaprolings]

To answer your question, what we want more is to be able to play a wide range of very powerful decks in a multiplayer setting without having to arbitrarily exclude cards that the rules committee for some reason won't touch in order to create a diverse meta.

If you ban a card for power level reasons, you adjust the gameplay at high power tables.
If you ban a card because it doesn't fit the spirit of the format (whatever that means), you adjust gameplay at lower power tables and sometimes high power as well.
Why is one of these fine to do, but the one that effects fewer people is not?

And what you want ot ban then? Flash ruins the format? Ok, banned, what then?
Is hermit druid fair then, or should that be banned too?
What about the new Painter Grindstone?
What about Food Chain?
cEDH is full of broken combo. Which ones are "broken broken" and which one are "ok broken"?

Calling all of cEDH assertive, overbearing, and demanding is a very misleading generalization and is not constructive to this conversation.

I'm not sure why people who enjoy lower power play feel threatened by the sheer existence of high power groups... If people see high power play and are interested/want to make their decks stronger as well, that's fine. The impact of bans for the sake of high power play would be extremely small - see flash.

We can coexist!

A post from "Sheldonshouldretire" insulting the RC is literally the fourth post of this thread, so i think you can understand.
You are probably an intelligent and mature player that want the best for everyone. A lot of players aren't like that and you can clearly see that in this thread.
Everyone want their own interest and i can understand that. But at least there should always be respect for the group who created all this, even if they have a different way of playing.

[pokken]

The angst from me is that many cedh players have expressed desires to have the RC change their approach to a degree I disagree with. Conflicting desires for the official rules are 100% my issue.

What exactly are you referring to here?

The idea that the RC does not ban for competitive metas is a thing that came from them and not something that was asked for and then taken into consideration, at least as far as I am aware.

"The RC doesn't ban for this" and other statements to that effect come from RC comments originally, so I am lost here.

There are numerous competitive players in this thread (and all over reddit etc.) With pleas ranging from requests to aggressive and insulting demands that the RC change their approach and start addressing competitive play.

More than one person has brought up prize support as a factor.

[BaronCappuccino]

cEDH is probably second only to Vintage in its capacity to have win conditions with such a runaway success rate as Flash has enabled. If it's possible to ban Flash without descending down a slippery slope of policing a possibly ever diminishing requirement as to what constitutes an out of control best win condition, then I don't really have any skin in the game.

[Rumpy5897]

I dabbled a smidge with Modern in 2015, and witnessed a "ban cascade". Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time got axed, then Birthing Pod got axed, then Splinter Twin got axed. In each of those cases, a deck was dominant in the field, so it got killed, and the suddenly deckless players scrambled towards the next best thing, leading towards a continued meta imbalance. My worry is whether something like this could potentially happen if the RC were to hear the cEDH pleas and kill Flash off. Will the Hulk folks scramble somewhere else, potentially leading to a continued meta imbalance? I asked a cEDH-versed friend of mine and he doesn't think this seems plausible.

[cryogen]

Mormons, Latter Day Saints,

Are the same,

Oh, ok. You get my point though, right?

To answer your question, what we want more is to be able to play a wide range of very powerful decks in a multiplayer setting without having to arbitrarily exclude cards that the rules committee for some reason won't touch in order to create a diverse meta.

If you ban a card for power level reasons, you adjust the gameplay at high power tables.
If you ban a card because it doesn't fit the spirit of the format (whatever that means), you adjust gameplay at lower power tables and sometimes high power as well.
Why is one of these fine to do, but the one that effects fewer people is not?

And what you want ot ban then? Flash ruins the format? Ok, banned, what then?
Is hermit druid fair then, or should that be banned too?
What about the new Painter Grindstone?
What about Food Chain?
cEDH is full of broken combo. Which ones are "broken broken" and which one are "ok broken"?

That's what we want to find out. If it's possible to ban certain cards to balance the cEDH metagame without affecting "casual" Commander, then that's a discussion worth exploring.

Calling all of cEDH assertive, overbearing, and demanding is a very misleading generalization and is not constructive to this conversation.

I'm not sure why people who enjoy lower power play feel threatened by the sheer existence of high power groups... If people see high power play and are interested/want to make their decks stronger as well, that's fine. The impact of bans for the sake of high power play would be extremely small - see flash.

We can coexist!

A post from "Sheldonshouldretire" insulting the RC is literally the fourth post of this thread, so i think you can understand.
You are probably an intelligent and mature player that want the best for everyone. A lot of players aren't like that and you can clearly see that in this thread.
Everyone want their own interest and i can understand that. But at least there should always be respect for the group who created all this, even if they have a different way of playing.

I don't see where this user is insulting the Rules Committee. Because of their user name I have kept an eye on them to see if they were a troll account, but so far I've seen them be respectful, despite their name.

[pokken]

That's what we want to find out. If it's possible to ban certain cards to balance the cEDH metagame without affecting "casual" Commander, then that's a discussion worth exploring.

I think the answer to that is already a pretty obvious hard no sadly. I brought up some of the most obvious examples a few times (Dramatic scepter, food chain) and nobody is having it. Even those cards have their fair use defenders in spades. I don't know if CEDH players even want any more format pillars taken out since scepter/chain seem relatively balanced.

It always comes around to cantrips, tutors and fast mana with CEDH in my experience to create any semblance of balance. Or it requires changing the rules -- e.g. 20 life would probably make hatebear/control shells work in CEDH that don't need to combo.

Flash is really a special case imho and it's probably as far as we could go. The problem is that once you do it you open the door and then we start having discussions like "How much can you step on casual use of a card to try for competitive improvements?"

[PrimevalCommander]

I don't think the RC needs to start throwing cards on the ban list for cEDH players. It is usually quite obvious which players are looking for the cEDH style of play and those who aren't. Playgroup communication takes over from there and you can talk about what type of power level you want from a game.

I have played games with people I didn't know and have gotten blown out by decks looking for much quicker wins than me. It happens, but perhaps I just need to ask my opponents what style of decks they are playing. When at large events in random EDH pods this can happen as well, but a simple "How powerful is your deck" may help mitigate some of the feel bads. I don't like the idea of throwing another half dozen cards on to the ban list that will largely have negligible impact on the cEDH community who will just move on to the next easiest combo win.

Paradox Engine is a card that screams "Great Value" but becomes degenerate to the point of ruining casual games. The reason it was banned is because it does the sort of things that casual players like to do, just does it a little TOO good. Prophet of Kruphix did the same thing. Both of those cards do things casual players want, but end up being a little too powerful and break games. Their utility is far too enticing to casual players to self-regulate, so the arms race to Prophet or Engine leaves games feeling empty and repetitive (unfun).

Many of the cards with diminished utility other than assisting in a combo are seen much less. Fast mana seems to be the backbone of cEDH players, so I would expect a Ban List with that style of play in mind would look closer to the 1v1 Ban List rather than the casual ban list. Maybe the cEDH crowd just needs to adopt the 1v1 ban list to slow down the format without all the fast mana.

I think the RC is doing a great job. All I'm waiting for is a Primeval Titan unban. See my user name

[Styrofoam]

To answer your question, what we want more is to be able to play a wide range of very powerful decks in a multiplayer setting without having to arbitrarily exclude cards that the rules committee for some reason won't touch in order to create a diverse meta.

If you ban a card for power level reasons, you adjust the gameplay at high power tables.
If you ban a card because it doesn't fit the spirit of the format (whatever that means), you adjust gameplay at lower power tables and sometimes high power as well.
Why is one of these fine to do, but the one that effects fewer people is not?

And what you want ot ban then? Flash ruins the format? Ok, banned, what then?
Is hermit druid fair then, or should that be banned too?
What about the new Painter Grindstone?
What about Food Chain?
cEDH is full of broken combo. Which ones are "broken broken" and which one are "ok broken"?

Calling all of cEDH assertive, overbearing, and demanding is a very misleading generalization and is not constructive to this conversation.

I'm not sure why people who enjoy lower power play feel threatened by the sheer existence of high power groups... If people see high power play and are interested/want to make their decks stronger as well, that's fine. The impact of bans for the sake of high power play would be extremely small - see flash.

We can coexist!

A post from "Sheldonshouldretire" insulting the RC is literally the fourth post of this thread, so i think you can understand.
You are probably an intelligent and mature player that want the best for everyone. A lot of players aren't like that and you can clearly see that in this thread.
Everyone want their own interest and i can understand that. But at least there should always be respect for the group who created all this, even if they have a different way of playing.

Does casual Commander play a lot of hermit druid fairly? Does it play a lot of Foodchain for value?

[mention]ilovesaprolings[/mention] why are you so hostile man? I have not really seen anyone here as hostile as you are, what's your deal, why so mad? not even trying to fire you up, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

To answer a previous question: Yeah, we want to do powerful things, but we don't want to all do the same thing. It's like.. when modern was plagued by eye of ugin, and eldrazi decks. Remember that? It was the most powerful thing you could do, but it forced everyone to do the exact same thing.

Hermit druid requires you to cast it, protect it, and untap with it. It's fragile. Flash needs only to resolve. I'm not speaking for all of cEDH, but it will adapt to Paradox engine being banned - but that reaction is forcing people to go to flash in droves. It is making the format unfun, even if it's powerful. Being powerful isn't the only thing people are looking for. You seem to have the wrong idea about cEDH, and I'd love to chat with you privately and we can maybe understand eachother better.

[cryogen]

Actually, Hermit Druid is an effective way to stock a graveyard in a reanimator deck. Food Chain is more iffy on its "fair" uses.

[pokken]

Actually, Hermit Druid is an effective way to stock a graveyard in a reanimator deck. Food Chain is more iffy on its "fair" uses.

I used hermit as a way to hit my land drops and stock my yard in fair-gitrog. It was always super good (Oh, and I had it in Skullbriar dredgechantments too for a while)

That card is a great example of one that would really piss me off if competitive got it banned, though I know not many people in comp are asking for that since it's slow and fragile.

Additional pt re: Banning Flash for CEDH

I strongly believe that the CEDH format is bound to become homogenized by nature while it uses a casual banlist. I think we have a pretty good example here of Vintage which has a very modest banlist compared to other competitive formats - and is far less diverse than say, legacy.

The more people play it the faster it will be solved, and it's growing for sure.

So I do worry that if we ban flash this time next year there'll be another scourge of competitive.

[Styrofoam]

Actually, Hermit Druid is an effective way to stock a graveyard in a reanimator deck. Food Chain is more iffy on its "fair" uses.

thank you. I wasn't sure about hermit druid or food chain either way.

[Styrofoam]

Actually, Hermit Druid is an effective way to stock a graveyard in a reanimator deck. Food Chain is more iffy on its "fair" uses.

I used hermit as a way to hit my land drops and stock my yard in fair-gitrog. It was always super good (Oh, and I had it in Skullbriar dredgechantments too for a while)

That card is a great example of one that would really piss me off if competitive got it banned, though I know not many people in comp are asking for that since it's slow and fragile.

correct. It's not a problem, and honestly, i don't see it becoming a problem in cEDH even if flash were to be banned for that very reason. Slow and fragile. Decks that can run it, are susceptible to Blood moon, back to basics etc. that have a real cost attached to running it as a combo piece.

Flash I honestly can't think of a single fair use for the card. And it shouldn't be that hard to hear the cEDH crowd, look at EDHRec, see how often the card is played in non-cEDH situations and come to a pretty good conclusion to whether or not the ban would affect the "core demographic"

if it has little to no effect, it should be an easy call. If it has a moderate effect, just leave it alone.

[ilovesaprolings]

Does casual Commander play a lot of hermit druid fairly? Does it play a lot of Foodchain for value?

@ilovesaprolings why are you so hostile man? I have not really seen anyone here as hostile as you are, what's your deal, why so mad? not even trying to fire you up, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

To answer a previous question: Yeah, we want to do powerful things, but we don't want to all do the same thing. It's like.. when modern was plagued by eye of ugin, and eldrazi decks. Remember that? It was the most powerful thing you could do, but it forced everyone to do the exact same thing.

Hermit druid requires you to cast it, protect it, and untap with it. It's fragile. Flash needs only to resolve. I'm not speaking for all of cEDH, but it will adapt to Paradox engine being banned - but that reaction is forcing people to go to flash in droves. It is making the format unfun, even if it's powerful. Being powerful isn't the only thing people are looking for. You seem to have the wrong idea about cEDH, and I'd love to chat with you privately and we can maybe understand eachother better.

I'm just trying to understand. All this %$#% from cEDH players for what? Just a single card at the end.
Apparently the casual player boogeyman is the one prevent RC to ban flash and finally balance the format.
It's not like under every RC ban there are tons of cEDH players complaining that the banned cards were fair and even a little weak.
People are complaining because paradox was fair and required building around
People are complaining because Iona cost 9 mana so its fair
People were complaining about prophet of kruphix because it wasn't much better than seedborn muse
People were complaining about sylvan primerdial because it was just a weaker primeval titan
I bet people were complaining about primeval titan too, but i wasn't much active during that time so i don't know

The banlist is already way thinner than the legacy and the modern one, it permits fast mana, fast tutors and fast combo. So i still don't understand what cEDH players want mre.
The RC isn't pushing any "no kill before turn X" policy like wotc did with modern. It looks like a competitive approach to me.
Or suddenly the format is ruined because paradox engine is banned and flash is still legal?

There is also the case of tiny leaders and french commander. They all tried the competitive approach and i don't see them going to well. Tiny leaders simply died and 1v1 changed its rules and banlist radically so much times...

[Styrofoam]

Does casual Commander play a lot of hermit druid fairly? Does it play a lot of Foodchain for value?

@ilovesaprolings why are you so hostile man? I have not really seen anyone here as hostile as you are, what's your deal, why so mad? not even trying to fire you up, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

To answer a previous question: Yeah, we want to do powerful things, but we don't want to all do the same thing. It's like.. when modern was plagued by eye of ugin, and eldrazi decks. Remember that? It was the most powerful thing you could do, but it forced everyone to do the exact same thing.

Hermit druid requires you to cast it, protect it, and untap with it. It's fragile. Flash needs only to resolve. I'm not speaking for all of cEDH, but it will adapt to Paradox engine being banned - but that reaction is forcing people to go to flash in droves. It is making the format unfun, even if it's powerful. Being powerful isn't the only thing people are looking for. You seem to have the wrong idea about cEDH, and I'd love to chat with you privately and we can maybe understand eachother better.

I'm just trying to understand. All this %$#% from cEDH players for what? Just a single card at the end.
Apparently the casual player boogeyman is the one prevent RC to ban flash and finally balance the format.
It's not like under every RC ban there are tons of cEDH players complaining that the banned cards were fair and even a little weak.
People are complaining because paradox was fair and required building around
People are complaining because Iona cost 9 mana so its fair
People were complaining about prophet of kruphix because it wasn't much better than seedborn muse
People were complaining about sylvan primerdial because it was just a weaker primeval titan
I bet people were complaining about primeval titan too, but i wasn't much active during that time so i don't know

The banlist is already way thinner than the legacy and the modern one, it permits fast mana, fast tutors and fast combo. So i still don't understand what cEDH players want mre.
The RC isn't pushing any "no kill before turn X" policy like wotc did with modern. It looks like a competitive approach to me.
Or suddenly the format is ruined because paradox engine is banned and flash is still legal?

There is also the case of tiny leaders and french commander. They all tried the competitive approach and i don't see them going to well. Tiny leaders simply died and 1v1 changed its rules and banlist radically so much times...

1) The casual player isn't the boogeyman. cEDH players (for the most part) aren't opposed to casual players playing the way they want. (also, i really REALLY REALLY hate saying that cEDH isn't casual, because I am not playing cEDH other that casually for fun 1 night a week.... but colloquially i understand the difference.... The real problem is the RC has, in a lot of cEDH players opinion, a philosophy that is too rigid and exclusionary, and we are asking for less rigidity.

2) This is not just cEDH players. This happens literally every single time a card people play with are banned.

3-7) yes...there are people who do complain about certain cards on the banned list, I agree. There are some....questionable cards.... on it. But sylvan primordial likely wouldn't see play in cEDH. Prophet of kruphix might... maybe? Seedborn muse barely sees play now as it is, and it's comparable. These were banned because of the warping effect they had on casual games, and at the end of the day, the bannings have very little effect on cEDH. Cards that are banned that are very questionable are cards like... biorythm, coalition victory, gifts ungiven, and probably grisslebrand would likely have very little impact on the format casually, and yet remain banned. They are the cards we point to when we say why can't flash be added to this list?

8) Primeval titan should stay banned.

9) No, we've been wanting flash banned before PE got banned. It is that format warping, and that egregious that it needs to go.

10) We aren't asking for the whole banned and restricted list to be tailored to our corner of EDH. We are asking for the RC to hear us out, and make a decision with cEDH at least in the discussion. It's not about getting everything we want all the time... that's not realistic, and not something anyone expects. We're not asking for a feast in our honor. We're just asking for a seat at the table.

[Hermes_]

Mormons, Latter Day Saints,

Are the same,

Oh, ok. You get my point though, right?

I did,but I am LDS,so I had to correct you

[Neuroplasticity]

I think some people here that don't play cEDH are having a tough time understanding why Flash is a special case.

Flash isn't a new card - - it's broken on the back of having been designed long ago with mechanics inappropriate mechanics for the job it was trying to do (flash in a creature and deny it to you if you can't pay for it). It's not anything like Wizards would ever print again.

It's a known destroyer of Legacy and is restricted in Vintage.

When it got introduced into cEDH by the Hulk unban, it forced the cEDH power level and diversity levels from approximately Legacy to approaching Vintage. The pool of viable decks dried up to just what can race and interact with a 2 mana instant that demands a counterspell. The entire stax archetype died because it couldn't deal with Flash on the axis it demands.

Every other wincon demands at least 3 mana and a critical mass of resources. Food chain needs 3 mana and 3-4 mana of creatures. Scepter needs 4 mana and nonland permanents that tap for at least 3. Labman Consult Brainstorm costs 2UB and whatever you need for a draw spell. All of these fold to removal on the critical piece if it can't be defended. There are lots of other combos that exist on or just outside this range, but they're all invalidated by the 2 mana wincon that requires no board state, must be interacted with by blue or wonky answers, dodges removal, spot graveyard removal, and mana denial, etc.

Resource usage aside, the actually game-ruining part of Flash is its instant speed. None of the above combos really go off at any time. It's hard to express how cheated it feels to have Flash be cast over a wincon you've played the table tempo well to set up. Or having to sit under a held up Flash not advancing to be able to interact while they continue to draw tons of cards with Thrasios and becoming inevitable. And this isn't even to talk about nongames that end before you've played enough mana to hold a counter.

The slippery slope argument would be a valid concern, save for how egregious Flash is in sheer power level. There's lots of whining always about bans but most cEDH players at the end of the day can shrug and adapt when something cool gets banned out. I'm really stoked that Hulk is being used to do cool things in lower power games; it'd even keep being a cool cEDH archetype with Flash gone.

But Flash is something else. It's a demon that would be better for everyone if we stuffed back into Pandora's box.

[ilovesaprolings]

1) The casual player isn't the boogeyman. cEDH players (for the most part) aren't opposed to casual players playing the way they want. (also, i really REALLY REALLY hate saying that cEDH isn't casual, because I am not playing cEDH other that casually for fun 1 night a week.... but colloquially i understand the difference.... The real problem is the RC has, in a lot of cEDH players opinion, a philosophy that is too rigid and exclusionary, and we are asking for less rigidity.

Then it shouldn't be a problem if RC mainly cather to casual players, since they are not opposite to competitive

2) This is not just cEDH players. This happens literally every single time a card people play with are banned.

3-7) yes...there are people who do complain about certain cards on the banned list, I agree. There are some....questionable cards.... on it. But sylvan primordial likely wouldn't see play in cEDH. Prophet of kruphix might... maybe? Seedborn muse barely sees play now as it is, and it's comparable. These were banned because of the warping effect they had on casual games, and at the end of the day, the bannings have very little effect on cEDH. Cards that are banned that are very questionable are cards like... biorythm, coalition victory, gifts ungiven, and probably grisslebrand would likely have very little impact on the format casually, and yet remain banned. They are the cards we point to when we say why can't flash be added to this list?

And would biorythm or coalition victory make a huge impact on competitive? I see almost 0 cards on the banlist that would be good and fair in cEDH. They are either crazy strong or kinda useless. If you want to make a list of unbans, i'm interested.

8) Primeval titan should stay banned.

9) No, we've been wanting flash banned before PE got banned. It is that format warping, and that egregious that it needs to go.

I agree on everything and i think the majority of casual players would too. I guess that the main dissent would be among competitive players

10) We aren't asking for the whole banned and restricted list to be tailored to our corner of EDH. We are asking for the RC to hear us out, and make a decision with cEDH at least in the discussion. It's not about getting everything we want all the time... that's not realistic, and not something anyone expects. We're not asking for a feast in our honor. We're just asking for a seat at the table.

But you are getting listened. They aren't banning fast mana or tutors even if they are obviously broken. They aren't banning generals like Derevi or Prossh. They waited years to ban Iona even if she was always a controversial card. They are always cautious and try to do the best even for the competitive players. They aways give a chance to every card.
The thing they won't do is blatantly sacrificing the casual community for the competitive one. And they shouldn't.