Toxrill's Toxic Control - Counterspell Tribal
Not much to say about this deck; it's pretty simple formula. Counter spells, remove stuff, cast Toxrill with counter backup, sneakily blast the board with Massacre Wurm or Black Sun's Zenith.
It's not deply into the proliferate scheme, mostly just running good cards that proliferate, but aims to be able to mess with people's ability to do slime math with stuff like Decree of Pain and Yawgmoth, Thran Physician.
I kept the manabase super basic and simple to keep costs and shuffling time down, so that's why the mana is so simple (unusual for me, I know).
The ramp package is pretty plain for me; I didn't feel like doing my typical stuff with trying to be cute with the cabal coffers manabase, because I'm out of all the tutors I need (vamp, demonic) to make that fairly reliable. Figured it'd be nice to just have a dumb easy deck that just needs to ramp a little to get Toxrill out early and start sliming everything.
The countermagic suite might be the coolest thing going on -- I've got a lot of esoteric counterspells in there for a variety of reasons.
Nostalgia for the old type 2 days
Trolling my buddy's Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer deck since morphs cost 0 on the stack.
More surprise your stuff got slimed effects
Just a fun card to read
Trolling The Ur-Dragon. Let's just...not do those stupid dragon triggers. Also a little morph trolling and a little The Gitrog Monster trolling.
Last edited by pokken 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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RowanKeltizar Firemind
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Counterspell tribal eh? I love it. It's DISGUSTING!
So how do you actually win with this deck?
So how do you actually win with this deck?
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I'll let you know when I figure it out lol. Right now it's slug tribal beat down or massacre wurm or dark schemesing or stealing peoples stuff.RowanKeltizar wrote: ↑2 years agoCounterspell tribal eh? I love it. It's DISGUSTING!
So how do you actually win with this deck?
Planning to see if I can just lock the board down and kill people with slugs and toxrill.
Thinking I might add a couple planeswalkers at some point. They seem good with the creature sweeping and proliferate sub theme. Maybe a couple with nasty ultimates or something. Jace aot seems reasonable.
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RowanKeltizar Firemind
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You know, this deck is giving me anti-combo, anti-aggro, and anti-green vibes. This could be A LOT nastier with some blue and black stax cards I'm only saying that because a part of me wants to build that deck to give a giant middle finger to my playgroup lol.
I'm talking about stuff like:
Dream Tides
Soul Barrier
Mana Breach
Back to Basics
Contamination
Frozen Aether
Pendrell Mists
Tainted Aether
I guess the main thing I worry about with your list is the card advantage. I know you can sac slugs but is that reliable with a commander that costs 7? You also get no pay off for casting your counterspells
I'm talking about stuff like:
Dream Tides
Soul Barrier
Mana Breach
Back to Basics
Contamination
Frozen Aether
Pendrell Mists
Tainted Aether
I guess the main thing I worry about with your list is the card advantage. I know you can sac slugs but is that reliable with a commander that costs 7? You also get no pay off for casting your counterspells
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RowanKeltizar wrote: ↑2 years agoYou know, this deck is giving me anti-combo, anti-aggro, and anti-green vibes. This could be A LOT nastier with some blue and black stax cards I'm only saying that because a part of me wants to build that deck to give a giant middle finger to my playgroup lol.
I'm talking about stuff like:
Dream Tides
Soul Barrier
Mana Breach
Back to Basics
Contamination
Frozen Aether
Pendrell Mists
Tainted Aether
I guess the main thing I worry about with your list is the card advantage. I know you can sac slugs but is that reliable with a commander that costs 7? You also get no pay off for casting your counterspells
So there's a reasonable number of ca spells in there and (rhystic, jace, decree, search, gambit etc.) but the main source of cards should be slug bro. And combined with random cantrips and scries and buyback counterspells I *think* there should be enough.
But really what remains to be seen is how play patterns go. Can I defend slugboi? Do people keep running derps into it trying to dig out?
I don't really like the random stax effects. Overall stax just feels awkward to me. I could be onboard with b2b potentially but I think you're mostly better off just countering or killing stuff. The awkward thing about stax permanents is you now have to find them and have the right ones for the state.
Toxrill is like a walking hate effect on all creatures. If you play any hate with him I'd suggest torpor orb as the only real super viable thing. Or grave pact maybe. But even that feels like overkill.
Aether is super awkward. I want my slugs for cards and toxrill will kill all their creatures and I want them to get slime counters first.
So like the bottom line is I expect the play pattern of toxrill to basically be…I cast him and we fight over him and if he sticks no one ever plays a creature again unless it has an etb ability. The board should be clear in one turn or two tops.
So that creates a really weird dynamic for stax effects.
One thing I could see being good is opposition. If you bomb enough creatures you could lock the game out forever with tapping slugs.
Re payoff for counters
I think the payoff for counters is there if toxrill sticks.
The countermagic in this deck is in an interesting place where I think you almost want to just go nuts with them early to buy you time and sandbag a free one (there are 6!!) to protect toxrill.
You want to counter stuff that could kill toxrill later or let people recover like haste effects or dragon tempest or repeated creature killing things.
Stuffing ramp and card advantage engines is probably fine. Normally I wouldn't counter a Kodamas reach but this seems right?
Could be totally wrong honestly hehe.
Card I forgot but should play is perplexing chimera. It dies in a turn cycle and is hilarious.
And my buddy clued me in on sludge monster which is probly worth a go over demon
And my buddy clued me in on sludge monster which is probly worth a go over demon
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Please add Revel in Riches. No matter the build, every Toxril deck needs Revel in Riches.
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I have it in my maybe pile. Here's my thought process for it.
If my prediction of play patterns bears out, I will have very narrow windows in which to cast it.
If I curve revel into toxrill it can be really good. If there are ten plus creatures out I have a 2 card combo.
Problem there is if people see I'm on tox and don't jam out as many creatures - especially if I play revel - it won't be as a great way to have spent 5 mana.
If I draw revel after toxrill I will either have control and no one is playing creatures or I will not have control which means revel is poor.
I will watch the play patterns and see how it goes but I suspect there will be a lot of scooping after I untap with toxrill as is.
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RowanKeltizar Firemind
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Yeah, i can see that Tox is indeed a powerful creature stax engine, so redundancy there probably isn't needed. However, i do question if you have enough of an ability to stall the board until you can actually cast Tox. 7 cmc is quite a lot. You are most likely looking at turn 5 or 6 commander cast.
You have a respectable ramp package but I'm not sure it's enough to guarantee that Tox comes out as early as you are hoping. I foresee potentially a lot of hate swinging your way in those early turns.
You have a respectable ramp package but I'm not sure it's enough to guarantee that Tox comes out as early as you are hoping. I foresee potentially a lot of hate swinging your way in those early turns.
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That is very possibly true! It's something I'll need to test out over time. Possible I need either more ramp (and some dense stuff like Thran Dynamo / Gilded Lotus, Cabal Coffers) or I need more removal spells.RowanKeltizar wrote: ↑2 years agoYeah, i can see that Tox is indeed a powerful creature stax engine, so redundancy there probably isn't needed. However, i do question if you have enough of an ability to stall the board until you can actually cast Tox. 7 cmc is quite a lot. You are most likely looking at turn 5 or 6 commander cast.
You have a respectable ramp package but I'm not sure it's enough to guarantee that Tox comes out as early as you are hoping. I foresee potentially a lot of hate swinging your way in those early turns.
I was trying to avoid a lot of sweepers but very possible I need some more than BSZ/Rift.
My hope is that I can buy enough time by just removing/countering stuff/chumpblocking, but will see. In my experience so far I can buy a lot of time if I counter the first big thing or two. But will have to see.
Overall I expect the play patterns to be pretty toxic and the deck might be short lived as a result.
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Crazy Monkey Arcane Themes
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I've been looking at Toxrill, the Corrosive as a finisher-commander for a control deck. When planning the deck, I noticed that Sludge Monster also provides slime counters, while being a one-sided Humility. The cards are from the same block, but I missed that on my first passthrough and thought it merited discussion. I think that it outperforms proliferate effects in terms of accelerating the sliming.
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- benjameenbear
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How have I completely missed this thread?! Welp, better late than never.
The primary combo with Toxrill is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell along with an active Toxrill. Kill all their lands (at the beginning of YOUR end step!) and creatures forever. And then you can slug them to death with the horde of Slugs that your one-sided Armageddon just created.
It's nice because Kormus Bell is an artifact, which plays into 's tutoring strengths. You can even Whir it out at instant speed so you can untap and then Toxrill their lands.
Talk about putting salt on the table (sorry, I couldn't help myself, but it's a GREAT pun!).
The primary combo with Toxrill is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell along with an active Toxrill. Kill all their lands (at the beginning of YOUR end step!) and creatures forever. And then you can slug them to death with the horde of Slugs that your one-sided Armageddon just created.
It's nice because Kormus Bell is an artifact, which plays into 's tutoring strengths. You can even Whir it out at instant speed so you can untap and then Toxrill their lands.
Talk about putting salt on the table (sorry, I couldn't help myself, but it's a GREAT pun!).
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That's pretty savage, and gives me a good excuse to add the Cabal Coffers package too rather than just being goodstuff. I'll have to look and see if I have a kormus bellbenjameenbear wrote: ↑2 years agoHow have I completely missed this thread?! Welp, better late than never.
The primary combo with Toxrill is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell along with an active Toxrill. Kill all their lands (at the beginning of YOUR end step!) and creatures forever. And then you can slug them to death with the horde of Slugs that your one-sided Armageddon just created.
It's nice because Kormus Bell is an artifact, which plays into 's tutoring strengths. You can even Whir it out at instant speed so you can untap and then Toxrill their lands.
Talk about putting salt on the table (sorry, I couldn't help myself, but it's a GREAT pun!).
Kinda nice is that Massacre Wurm gives me a backup out to that too.
tbh, many Toxril decks run ways to give their opponents a number of 1/1 tokens (Infernal Genesis, Hunted Phantasm, Forbidden Orchard, etc), but I am not sure that you want to go down this route.
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I think Forbidden Orchard is fine, will see if I can find one in my crapSefir wrote: ↑2 years agotbh, many Toxril decks run ways to give their opponents a number of 1/1 tokens (Infernal Genesis, Hunted Phantasm, Forbidden Orchard, etc), but I am not sure that you want to go down this route.
I don't think I want to use any card slots for it but lands are reasonable.
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plaganegra Jeff
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Hahaha - the ultimate troll deck.
You might want to consider a couple artifacts like lightning greaves to protect your dude for when you inevitably become the archenemy of the game. I really like Kaya's Ghostform as well. Maybe just a couple things like that could help... Also, Toxic Deluge is basically a 1-sided wipe for you.
You probably need more card draw as well so you don't run out of counterspells since it will be 3v1. No love for necropotence or anything of the like? Propaganda feels out of place. When people are running into counterspells they will probably happily pay the 2 mana to punch you lol. Seems like a wasted slot. No Mercy would be an easy upgrade.
Honestly, I would forgo pretty much all of the creatures aside from your commander and snappy and go creature-less and run things like tainted aether. Go all in on the UB spell-slinging theme and supplement with some one sided stax pieces. Add a Nether Spirit for sacrifice fodder.
Cool idea man!
You might want to consider a couple artifacts like lightning greaves to protect your dude for when you inevitably become the archenemy of the game. I really like Kaya's Ghostform as well. Maybe just a couple things like that could help... Also, Toxic Deluge is basically a 1-sided wipe for you.
You probably need more card draw as well so you don't run out of counterspells since it will be 3v1. No love for necropotence or anything of the like? Propaganda feels out of place. When people are running into counterspells they will probably happily pay the 2 mana to punch you lol. Seems like a wasted slot. No Mercy would be an easy upgrade.
Honestly, I would forgo pretty much all of the creatures aside from your commander and snappy and go creature-less and run things like tainted aether. Go all in on the UB spell-slinging theme and supplement with some one sided stax pieces. Add a Nether Spirit for sacrifice fodder.
Cool idea man!
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Thanks! Appreciate the thoughts for sure.plaganegra wrote: ↑2 years agoHahaha - the ultimate troll deck.
You might want to consider a couple artifacts like lightning greaves to protect your dude for when you inevitably become the archenemy of the game. I really like Kaya's Ghostform as well. Maybe just a couple things like that could help... Also, Toxic Deluge is basically a 1-sided wipe for you.
You probably need more card draw as well so you don't run out of counterspells since it will be 3v1. No love for necropotence or anything of the like? Propaganda feels out of place. When people are running into counterspells they will probably happily pay the 2 mana to punch you lol. Seems like a wasted slot. No Mercy would be an easy upgrade.
Honestly, I would forgo pretty much all of the creatures aside from your commander and snappy and go creature-less and run things like tainted aether. Go all in on the UB spell-slinging theme and supplement with some one sided stax pieces. Add a Nether Spirit for sacrifice fodder.
Cool idea man!
So Kaya's Ghostform is *cool* but those kind of effects including greaves are mostly going to underperform more countermagic. Greaves has an advantage of being able to be cast earlier. But I'd probably add Spell Pierce or Dispel before any of those just because they have other applications. Maybe if I added Muddle the Mixture I could add greaves? Will think on that. Greaves biting it to board wipes is a problem though and one of the reasons I am leaning on countermagic - it beats both wipes and targeted spells.
Propaganda is for soaking people in the early game; a turn 2 or 3 propaganda should mean almost never getting attacked until you drop Toxrill. If people are paying 2 it means they're not developing their boards to be scary to you. No Mercy is a card that doesn't prevent life loss if people know Toxrill is coming. I've never been happy with that card.
The point of Propaganda (and really any stax piece in this deck) should be to get people to load the board up with creatures but *not swing with them*. So things that discourage people from playing pieces are active countersynergy (e.g. Tainted Aether). Koskun Falls would be on my list if I had more dudes, I just don't.
Forbid and Sublime Epiphany are both legit counters I will think on! I had both in my maybe pile.
Black Market suffers from the play patterns and sequencing problems that Revel in Riches does; they do nothing until Toxrill starts sweeping the board, and if cast after Toxrill has swept they do more nothing. So they're something I need to tap out for before Toxrill, which the deck is not designed to do except on turn 2-3 (for something like Solemn Simulacrum or Spellseeker).
That said, Market has some utility in that I can save some slugs and then sac them, so it might possibly be good later? I do like that aspect. It's probably better than Revel in this deck.
Tainted Aether is an active nonbo with Toxrill -- you kill something, then sac your slug immediately, which defeats the whole purpose. And people can get you by killing your slug in response to the trigger which is awful. It functionally gives people outs for no reason
So far I have not thought of any stax pieces that actually work well with Tox except Torpor Orb -- so I could see the reasoning behind cutting some of the ETB dudes and running that.
But what are the odds that any stax piece outperforms Toxic Deluge or Damnation? Except maybe Arcane Laboratory or Opposition.
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plaganegra Jeff
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How are you not dying in the early game? The amount of removal you have in the deck is virtually non-existant. One propoganda and one board wipe aint gonna do it when you run out of mana or counterspells...pokken wrote: ↑2 years agoThanks! Appreciate the thoughts for sure.
So Kaya's Ghostform is *cool* but those kind of effects including greaves are mostly going to underperform more countermagic. Greaves has an advantage of being able to be cast earlier. But I'd probably add Spell Pierce or Dispel before any of those just because they have other applications. Maybe if I added Muddle the Mixture I could add greaves? Will think on that. Greaves biting it to board wipes is a problem though and one of the reasons I am leaning on countermagic - it beats both wipes and targeted spells.
Propaganda is for soaking people in the early game; a turn 2 or 3 propaganda should mean almost never getting attacked until you drop Toxrill. If people are paying 2 it means they're not developing their boards to be scary to you. No Mercy is a card that doesn't prevent life loss if people know Toxrill is coming. I've never been happy with that card.
The point of Propaganda (and really any stax piece in this deck) should be to get people to load the board up with creatures but *not swing with them*. So things that discourage people from playing pieces are active countersynergy (e.g. Tainted Aether). Koskun Falls would be on my list if I had more dudes, I just don't.
Forbid and Sublime Epiphany are both legit counters I will think on! I had both in my maybe pile.
Black Market suffers from the play patterns and sequencing problems that Revel in Riches does; they do nothing until Toxrill starts sweeping the board, and if cast after Toxrill has swept they do more nothing. So they're something I need to tap out for before Toxrill, which the deck is not designed to do except on turn 2-3 (for something like Solemn Simulacrum or Spellseeker).
That said, Market has some utility in that I can save some slugs and then sac them, so it might possibly be good later? I do like that aspect. It's probably better than Revel in this deck.
Tainted Aether is an active nonbo with Toxrill -- you kill something, then sac your slug immediately, which defeats the whole purpose. And people can get you by killing your slug in response to the trigger which is awful. It functionally gives people outs for no reason
So far I have not thought of any stax pieces that actually work well with Tox except Torpor Orb -- so I could see the reasoning behind cutting some of the ETB dudes and running that.
But what are the odds that any stax piece outperforms Toxic Deluge or Damnation? Except maybe Arcane Laboratory or Opposition.
Kaya's ghostform is essentially a 1cmc "counterspell" (insurance policy) that protects your general. How does that not outperform most of the counterspells in the deck? It protects toxrill from almost everything.
I am feeling like there is a very low chance you can have enough mana and counterspells to survive long enough to actually get toxrill online unless your opponents are playing nothing with any kind of aggro maybe...
Are you planning to never recast Toxrill? That would be the scenario I think Black Market would help you the most with. Turns you recast him will use a lot of your resources and give your opponents ample opportunity to get around all of your counterspells.
Thinking you will have a counterspell for everything seems like a huge blindside in deck construction to me.
Also - why are you not running Toxic Deluge or Damnation? You should probably be running 5-7 board wipes in this deck and at least a few targeted removal spells.
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It's a new deck so I don't know, but...plaganegra wrote: ↑2 years agoHow are you not dying in the early game? The amount of removal you have in the deck is virtually non-existant. One propoganda and one board wipe aint gonna do it when you run out of mana or counterspells...
Kaya's ghostform is essentially a 1cmc "counterspell" (insurance policy) that protects your general. How does that not outperform most of the counterspells in the deck? It protects toxrill from almost everything.
I am feeling like there is a very low chance you can have enough mana and counterspells to survive long enough to actually get toxrill online unless your opponents are playing nothing with any kind of aggro maybe...
Are you planning to never recast Toxrill? That would be the scenario I think Black Market would help you the most with.
Thinking you will have a counterspell for everything seems like a huge blindside in deck construction to me.
There's more removal than it looks like;
That with the ability to counter a couple early threats and the odd chump block and Propaganda *should* allow for surviving til turn 5 or 6? I think? I dunno. We can cast Massacre Wurm and Demon of Dark Schemes on turn 5 or 6 to curve into Tox to if needed, and they present a pretty big butt to block as well.
Kaya's Ghostform has to come out *after* toxrill and has to land while no one has removal. The difference between Swan Song at 8 mana (cast toxrill pass with it up) and tapping out to cast ghostform is pretty significant. I'd definitely play greaves first.
I don't really expect to have a counterspell for everything; basically just counter stuff that is going to put a lot of pressure on me. Hellkite Courser or Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma eat an early counter.
I think something like Aetherize or Aetherspouts might be a pretty good idea though, I'll have to think about that.
I do like the idea of Black Market as feeding a Tox recast, but *ideally* we should be casting Toxrill, the Corrosive on turn 6 or 7 with two counters backing it up (a free one and a cheap one). And once it makes its way around the table we're in the money.
It's possible that a card like Kederekt Leviathan might be better, and running Animate Dead and Dance of the Dead type stuff might go well with that. But again, we want people to play creatures. So it's tension
--
Stuff I need to add (notes):
Ancient Tomb - ramp!
Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with Kormus Bell
Black Market - I do like this card and it's the best chance it's ever had to be good. Putting counters on it by sac'ing slugs is great.
Sludge Monster - probably strictly better than Demon of Dark Schemes
Drown in the Loch - just good!
Last edited by pokken 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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plaganegra Jeff
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 2 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: Buffalo NY
@pokken Sorry I have so many questions about this deck lol.
If you are bouncing peoples stuff as "removal" (yes it does count, but only temporarily) - you are going to run out of interaction even faster as they dont lose any card advantage, but you do. You are trading Card Advantage for board control, and you have very little card advantage engines in the deck. (again - no necropotence in Dimir Control?! haha).
I don't see decree of pain in your list... And even if you count Cyclonic rift as a board wipe (it is) - these are super expensive board wipes. Hardly useful for the early game which is precisely when you need them... Late game you have... Toxrill so what is the point?
What are the odds you even get propoganda in the early game? Small. Late game it does next to nothing for you that I can tell.
More than likely you will have a mix of lands and blue instants (some of which are very situational).
But - Say everything goes well and you survive long enough to cast toxrill with a couple free/cheap counterspells as backup. This seems a bit wishful to me... Anyway, say it happens - you wipe your opponents boards over the course of two rounds while they are doing everything they can to kill Tox. Are two counterspells enough? Probably not. It is going to be 3v1 and I would bet that they find an answer. Now you are completely depleted and have to cast your general again, probably have nothing in hand, and drawing one card per turn. You better win right after toxrill hits the field...
You are a very creative deckbuilder so I am going to go ahead and assume I am totally missing something lol
If you are bouncing peoples stuff as "removal" (yes it does count, but only temporarily) - you are going to run out of interaction even faster as they dont lose any card advantage, but you do. You are trading Card Advantage for board control, and you have very little card advantage engines in the deck. (again - no necropotence in Dimir Control?! haha).
I don't see decree of pain in your list... And even if you count Cyclonic rift as a board wipe (it is) - these are super expensive board wipes. Hardly useful for the early game which is precisely when you need them... Late game you have... Toxrill so what is the point?
What are the odds you even get propoganda in the early game? Small. Late game it does next to nothing for you that I can tell.
More than likely you will have a mix of lands and blue instants (some of which are very situational).
But - Say everything goes well and you survive long enough to cast toxrill with a couple free/cheap counterspells as backup. This seems a bit wishful to me... Anyway, say it happens - you wipe your opponents boards over the course of two rounds while they are doing everything they can to kill Tox. Are two counterspells enough? Probably not. It is going to be 3v1 and I would bet that they find an answer. Now you are completely depleted and have to cast your general again, probably have nothing in hand, and drawing one card per turn. You better win right after toxrill hits the field...
You are a very creative deckbuilder so I am going to go ahead and assume I am totally missing something lol
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
My Varina Decklist
Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
yeah like I said it's a new deck so lots of rough edges. Don't be sorry about asking questions, it's very helpful for me to align my thinkingplaganegra wrote: ↑2 years ago@pokken Sorry I have so many questions about this deck lol.
If you are bouncing peoples stuff as "removal" (yes it does count, but only temporarily) - you are going to run out of interaction even faster as they dont lose any card advantage, but you do. You are trading Card Advantage for board control, and you have very little card advantage engines in the deck. (again - no necropotence in Dimir Control?! haha).
I don't see decree of pain in your list... And even if you count Cyclonic rift as a board wipe (it is) - these are super expensive board wipes. Hardly useful for the early game which is precisely when you need them... Late game you have... Toxrill so what is the point?
What are the odds you even get propoganda in the early game? Small. Late game it does next to nothing for you that I can tell.
More than likely you will have a mix of lands and blue instants (some of which are very situational).
But - Say everything goes well and you survive long enough to cast toxrill with a couple free/cheap counterspells as backup. This seems a bit wishful to me... Anyway, say it happens - you wipe your opponents boards over the course of two rounds while they are doing everything they can to kill Tox. Are two counterspells enough? Probably not. It is going to be 3v1 and I would bet that they find an answer. Now you are completely depleted and have to cast your general again, probably have nothing in hand, and drawing one card per turn. You better win right after toxrill hits the field...
You are a very creative deckbuilder so I am going to go ahead and assume I am totally missing something lol
Necropotence is a great card, it just isnt' where I want to be paying all that life is what I'm trying to avoid doing I'm more likely to be short of mana in the early game than cards. The deck could maybe use a Fact or Fiction or even Mystic Remora first tbh. Maybe even Manifold Insights.
Definitely a good question bout Propaganda - my thought is sometimes I see it and it costs 3 mana and sometimes I don't and it pitches to Force of Will or Force of Negation? I dunno. prop has always been a gross overperformer in control decks that do not want to commit to the board, for me. I could probably stand to play a couple tutors or something but I'm gonna start out without them
"trading card advantage for board control" -- well, Into the Roil Repeal and Cryptic Command are card neutral (or can be), and Mystic Confluence is card positive. It's kinda the MO of control decks; you run yourself low on cards then refuel.
No worries - Decree of Pain was a bookeeping error on my aprt, it's in there
Yeah, the most likely scenario in this deck is I draw like 3, a mana rock, a counterspell and a cantrip, and a wildcard. Which is honestly the part I am the most worried about - I do have a number of cantrips and velocity enablers but it might need to be more.
The thought on Toxrill is that once it's 3v1 the only thing they can do that matters is kill Toxrill *but* I get to sac slugs to draw cards and refuel while they don't get to have creatures. Probably the worst case scenario there is someone else has a good card advantage engine, which is where stuff like Cyclonic Rift can come in handy.
That's probably why I need to be running a true finisher like Kormus Bell and some tutors, but I'm gonna test it out and see My experience riding Consecrated Sphinx to victory has been that if I can achieve overwhelming card advantage and kill the entire board I'll probly win.
The thing about Rift is that it's also fine to rift for 1B to save yourself, and it's spellseekerable. I envision a lot of patterns where it's right for me to end step rift, untap, and pass turn on 7 mana. That forces everyone to redeploy their dudes, and I get another land drop or two before I have to cast Toxrill.
The big unknown here really is what kind of play patterns will develop when there's a Toxrill at the table; will people slow play or try to rush me out? Can I survive one player trying to rush me out? Will they all try to rush me down? Too many unknowns
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RowanKeltizar Firemind
- Posts: 534
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: New Mexico
- Contact:
I agree with your logic regarding the creature stax effects. You want creatures on the field, you just don't want to take damage from them. So maybe Crawlspace Ensnaring Bridge are good fits? Helps you stall until you get Tox on the field without actually stopping players from casting creatures or wiping them prematurely. There are probably some other blue and black enchantments that do similar things.
I do kinda think this deck needs a "win-con" and while the Kormus Bell thing is pretty brutal that is a win-con that works for the deck. You might want Expedition Map to get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth [/card] though. Otherwise, I guess you could just run the expensive black tutors.
I do kinda think this deck needs a "win-con" and while the Kormus Bell thing is pretty brutal that is a win-con that works for the deck. You might want Expedition Map to get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth [/card] though. Otherwise, I guess you could just run the expensive black tutors.
Kaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
Aurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
Niv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
Henzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
Soul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
Gishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Shorikai, Genesis Engine
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
Aurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
Niv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
Henzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
Soul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
Gishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
Sygg, River CutthroatShorikai, Genesis Engine
So my *hope* is that the pile of removal and counters will be enough to dissuade some attacks. I might need to up the the removal and shave counters. Ensnaring Bridge and Crawlspace are not unreasonable--even Silent Arbiter might be OK Really though I wonder if maybe running sme rattlesnake creatures like Stinkweed Imp might be more the right alley? Probably some nastier deathtouch effects. Even a Mnemonic Wall might be ok.RowanKeltizar wrote: ↑2 years agoI agree with your logic regarding the creature stax effects. You want creatures on the field, you just don't want to take damage from them. So maybe Crawlspace Ensnaring Bridge are good fits? Helps you stall until you get Tox on the field without actually stopping players from casting creatures or wiping them prematurely. There are probably some other blue and black enchantments that do similar things.
I do kinda think this deck needs a "win-con" and while the Kormus Bell thing is pretty brutal that is a win-con that works for the deck. You might want Expedition Map to get Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth [/card] though. Otherwise, I guess you could just run the expensive black tutors.
I'll probably wind up running map and a couple tutors with the bell package, but I kinda want to see if I can just 10-15 people for a few turns and win to demoralization I feel like once I get it down to 2v1 with Tox on the board no one is digging out.
In thinking on it, I think this deck might be a good fit for some decent midrange blockers like Twilight Prophet and Mindblade Render that do double duty as making some card advantage and early speedbumps. I'll try to noodle on that a bit more, but blockers are really good in slime.dec especially since they get better as creatures get outclassed.
So transforming some of my CA suite into good blockers or planeswalkers with CA/Removal packages might be good. The proliferate package is excellent with stuff like Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath too.
Much noodling to do as I playtest
So transforming some of my CA suite into good blockers or planeswalkers with CA/Removal packages might be good. The proliferate package is excellent with stuff like Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath too.
Much noodling to do as I playtest
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RowanKeltizar Firemind
- Posts: 534
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: New Mexico
- Contact:
So, just speaking from experience with Niv-Mizzet: even though a third of my deck is draw, i still struggle to deal with all the aggro that comes my way. You can't counter or spot remove every single relevant threat. It's why I've been considering something like Ensnaring Bridge , Propaganda, or Crawlspace in that deck also because they end up having an efficient interaction vs card advantage ratio.
But yes, testing will be the best way to know what steps to take to hone the deck.
But yes, testing will be the best way to know what steps to take to hone the deck.
Kaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
Aurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
Niv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
Henzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
Soul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
Gishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Shorikai, Genesis Engine
Elenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
Aurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
Niv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
Henzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
Soul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
Gishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
Sygg, River CutthroatShorikai, Genesis Engine