Update from Rules Committee re: The Walking Dead Cards

[JWK]

Well Mitch realized how bad his idea was and how hard it backfired on him. Captain is dead and the servers have been deleted.

Good. I don't disagree with his disdain for these cards, or for WotC for producing and releasing them - I am 100% in agreement with him on that - but his impugning the integrity of the RC stepped over the line, and fragmenting the community is not helpful.

[Card Slinger J]

So do we know for sure If Captain is going to officially replace EDH / Commander as Paper Magic's main casual format or is it too soon to be asking that question? Given how there's not as many rule differences between the two formats means that transitioning decks isn't as problematic and If it was then I'd imagine most players would be selling off their EDH / Commander decks out of protest against Wizards of the Coast.

It's already hard enough as it is to boycott singles that aren't Secret Lair drops compared to how easy it is with sealed product. While you're saving money by purchasing singles over booster packs / boxes you're still supporting Wizards of the Coast in a way so it's not like you're really boycotting them at all. EDH / Commander is by far my favorite format in Paper Magic as I'd really hate to see it go in favor of Arena / MTGO where the technology isn't there to replicate that experience.

[toctheyounger]

Well Mitch realized how bad his idea was and how hard it backfired on him. Captain is dead and the servers have been deleted.

Good. I don't disagree with his disdain for these cards, or for WotC for producing and releasing them - I am 100% in agreement with him on that - but his impugning the integrity of the RC stepped over the line, and fragmenting the community is not helpful.

I caught up with this after everything wrapped up - can anyone fill me in with some details?

[cryogen]

So do we know for sure If Captain is going to officially replace EDH / Commander as Paper Magic's main casual format or is it too soon to be asking that question? Given how there's not as many rule differences between the two formats means that transitioning decks isn't as problematic and If it was then I'd imagine most players would be selling off their EDH / Commander decks out of protest against Wizards of the Coast.

It's already hard enough as it is to boycott singles that aren't Secret Lair drops compared to how easy it is with sealed product. While you're saving money by purchasing singles over booster packs / boxes you're still supporting Wizards of the Coast in a way so it's not like you're really boycotting them at all. EDH / Commander is by far my favorite format in Paper Magic as I'd really hate to see it go in favor of Arena / MTGO where the technology isn't there to replicate that experience.

Given that he deleted the YouTube video, website, discord server, and issued an apology.... I'm guessing no.

[cryogen]

Well Mitch realized how bad his idea was and how hard it backfired on him. Captain is dead and the servers have been deleted.

Good. I don't disagree with his disdain for these cards, or for WotC for producing and releasing them - I am 100% in agreement with him on that - but his impugning the integrity of the RC stepped over the line, and fragmenting the community is not helpful.

I caught up with this after everything wrapped up - can anyone fill me in with some details?

I didn't watch the video but from my understanding he made a reaction video where he created a format called "Captain" that was Commander but with integrity. It was literally Commander with the TWD cards banned and any other future mechanically unique cards. But then he also insulted the RC in the process.

[toctheyounger]

Commander but with integrity.

Well, saying this in and of itself is a little insulting.

I get it though, I like Mitch as a content creator and this sort of product is absolutely a middle finger to the sort of decks he builds. Sounds like he was either being satirical or just didn't think it through before posting. Never social media in the heat of the moment.

[Treamayne]

Saying that what they "really mean" is that silver bordered is not allowed on arena and MTGO is buck wild, considering the secret lair is available on neither of those.

Obviously I employed hyperbole to make a point. That said, the Secret Lairs are very much being released on Arena and MTGO. I have a few gifted to me by a friend that got the Full Sleeves pack but did not want/need the MTGO Code (he gave the Arena code to somebody else). Maybe not every SL release has been digital as well, I haven't followed them enough to notice, but I'd be surprised if this release does not get added to MTGO.

However, no silver bordered cards get digital releases. afaik.

SPOILER

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[Wallycaine]

Saying that what they "really mean" is that silver bordered is not allowed on arena and MTGO is buck wild, considering the secret lair is available on neither of those.

Obviously I employed hyperbole to make a point. That said, the Secret Lairs are very much being released on Arena and MTGO. I have a few gifted to me by a friend that got the Full Sleeves pack but did not want/need the MTGO Code (he gave the Arena code to somebody else). Maybe not every SL release has been digital as well, I haven't followed them enough to notice, but I'd be surprised if this release does not get added to MTGO.

However, no silver bordered cards get digital releases. afaik.

SPOILER

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MTGO_Secret_Lair.jpg

I'm specifically referring to the secret lair under discussion, not all secret lairs throughout time. That said, there has never been a secret lair released on Arena (They provide codes for sleeves, not the cards).

[Card Slinger J]

The problem I see with the potential for a new independent rules committee for a new casual format like Captain is that eventually Wizards of the Coast is going to get them in the same position as the EDH / Commander Rules Committee when getting them to go along with their sales tactics. The odds of that happening are dependent on how many people go along with the idea cause we've seen cases in the past where people have tried to replicate the success of EDH / Commander through variants such as Oathbreaker, Brawl, and Tiny Leaders but have failed every time. Captain is really no different.

Now If Captain banned the use of the Reserve List aside from the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards and similar cards like it then that would only splinter the MTG community further. The problem is how much would Captain differentiate itself from EDH / Commander to where it's just as appealing or more appealing? That's the real challenge that this supposed new committee would need to tackle cause it's not just a matter of introducing a new concept of a format and then just walk away to see If it takes off or not. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Elder Dragon Highlander (EDH).

[Mookie]

I vaguely recall seeing a variant of EDH that only allows cards that went through (or were originally printed in) Standard-legal sets - in other words, no cards from Commander sets / Modern Horizons / Conspiracy / etc. I've been tempted to start building with that in mind, but I'm also sort of scared to find out how much of my existing decks would have to be removed. (so many of my commanders being from precons doesn't really help either)

Anyway, as I've stated elsewhere, I'm fine with the RC's decision on this. The cards aren't worth of banning from a balance perspective, and I don't think it's the RC's job to editorialize re: how WotC should run their business. I'm not a fan of the cards from a flavor perspective and would greatly prefer they got the Ikoria Godzilla treatment / were silver bordered, but meh. Only being available from Secret Lair is certainly concerning (especially if they end up spiking in price / being competitively viable), but, again, I don't think that is ban-worthy.

[Card Slinger J]

Either way the advent of IP crossovers might mean that MTG as we know it is dying for real this time around. We always assumed that "MTG dying" meant Wizards of the Coast going out of business due to no one wanting to play anymore. In reality, it's a planned euthanasia committed upon the game by Wizards of the Coast themselves because it makes them more money to turn MTG into an advertising business for other franchises / intellectual properties. Technically the game will still exist, but in reality it will be void of what was once held sacred among the community.

What better than to spend less money on MTG's own lore when they can use other IP's every time they release a new product? Contrary to popular belief the games' own source material was on an upswing until after War of the Spark where they sort of just gave up shortly after. Of course it would cost Wizards of the Coast more time and money to license other IP's than it does for them to commission new artwork but If they split the profits however then it may not be a problem. Not to themselves of course but to us as a community.

Can you imagine the potential legal battles and lawsuits they might end up facing If they end up acquiring an IP that gets themselves into more trouble as a company? Would you want to continue to risk spending money on a hobby that mostly cares about profits over community? I sure wouldn't but that's the real danger that MTG faces right now IMO. Wizards of the Coast have managed to go unscathed from their recent legal battles but in the happenstance that Hasbro is no longer able to back them up I'm not so sure they'd be as lucky.

[Outcryqq]

Either way the advent of IP crossovers might mean that MTG as we know it is dying for real this time around. We always assumed that "MTG dying" meant Wizards of the Coast going out of business due to no one wanting to play anymore. In reality, it's a planned euthanasia committed upon the game by Wizards of the Coast themselves because it makes them more money to turn MTG into an advertising business for other franchises / intellectual properties. Technically the game will still exist, but in reality it will be void of what was once held sacred among the community.
-snip-

I see a ton of posts from you that are generally bleak in terms of MTG's outlook, and you've been pushing this perspective long before SL:TWD. And while I agree with some of your negativity, I think people calling "MTG is dying" are unrealistic. I won't bore anyone, but I saw a reddit post where someone made a list of 30+ times a portion of the MTG community said that "MTG is dying" in response to something, and it definitely emphasized the point: the game survives bad decisions, and no, this won't kill MTG.

[toctheyounger]

Either way the advent of IP crossovers might mean that MTG as we know it is dying for real this time around. We always assumed that "MTG dying" meant Wizards of the Coast going out of business due to no one wanting to play anymore. In reality, it's a planned euthanasia committed upon the game by Wizards of the Coast themselves because it makes them more money to turn MTG into an advertising business for other franchises / intellectual properties. Technically the game will still exist, but in reality it will be void of what was once held sacred among the community.
-snip-

I see a ton of posts from you that are generally bleak in terms of MTG's outlook, and you've been pushing this perspective long before SL:TWD. And while I agree with some of your negativity, I think people calling "MTG is dying" are unrealistic. I won't bore anyone, but I saw a reddit post where someone made a list of 30+ times a portion of the MTG community said that "MTG is dying" in response to something, and it definitely emphasized the point: the game survives bad decisions, and no, this won't kill MTG.

While generally I agree, there's not a lot of call for 'the sky is falling' posts, this is an interesting point in the game's history and no doubt. There's every chance this is the beginning of a more predatory sales style for the franchise, and let's be honest, the booster pack model is less than a stone's throw from outright gambling. The company has more or less said that they have more of these lined up and fully intend to do more; it'll just be a case of waiting to see whether they're willing to come to the party in terms of a more fair and equitable sales tactic or whether they hold us over a barrel for our cardboard.

Honestly, if it's the latter, I won't engage hyperbole and say it's the end, but I can see a fairly sizable exodus from the game/format if cashflow becomes the defining characteristic for acquisition of staples and keeping up with your meta. Sure, there'd need to be a pretty sizable power creep in the SL products before they really become chase, but let's not pretend there's not precedent for it in the recent past. As a company Wizards seems unwilling or uninterested in learning from their mistakes with these sort of products.

All that being said it won't change what I do, personally. I know what I want from my decks and my gameplay, and these products will not affect me one iota in reality; I can't afford them, I can't access them due to location, and even if I could for either I'm not the kind of guy who throws money at a deck because I can. I have some expensives in my collection, but on the Commander scale I'm pretty much a budget commander, and I like to think part of that is being able to think around corners to get past the lack of staples. So, yeah, this product isn't for me and I'm glad it's not. I just hope we don't see more of the kind, as slim a hope as that might be.

[Hermes_]

I'd just like to remind folks that MTG has been named checked in every investor's call for Hasbro's quarterly earning release as making them money along with a venue for growth.

[duducrash]

One thing I have disliked in this growing debate is how every criticism of the RC is hastly shunned. While I agree respect may be maintened at all times and disrespect should not be tolerated in any level, I also feel I can feel the RC has failed me as a player and itsel as an entity.

I feel like they failed to keep the best interest of players and failed to maintain themselves as a separate entity from WOTC. I feel the argument for lack of aviability lacks so much enthusiasm is disturbing. I feel this reflects MUCH on the geographical questions of the team. the RC 4 is all american and 6 of the CAG live in North America the furthest away from WOTC is what? Florida? I feel like those specially on the CAG present themselves as champions of the community and its voice and they don't actually represent us that well. The last two players of the year are from south america, we have a huge community that lives and growns only because of our own efforts, forgotten by both WOTC and the community whenever the community itself is represented. I feel like it's not in the best interest of all magic players to have cards that are literally not avaliable to a large portion of their playabase,

I feel like I should be able to point I have trust issues with how they conduct the game without being a personal ofense.

[Card Slinger J]

I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with IP crossovers in MTG If Wizards of the Coast had an official poll to determine what intellectual properties are about to be put into the game where the community actually has a voice on the matter instead of just Wizards of the Coast picking a random IP from a drawing to see what sells and what doesn't without our stamp of approval. The bigger concern about IP crossovers in MTG itself isn't so much about the quality of them (while that's still important) but rather the quantity that makes the actual game lose it's sense of identity where all you're really doing is playing an MTG version of Weiss Schwarz (anime/manga crossovers) or Universal Fighting System (fighting game crossovers).

For those who may not remember back in the mid 2000's there was a Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game made by Upper Deck called Marvel / DC Vs. System before it was re-branded as a Living Card Game with the same name. Shortly before it got discontinued for World of Warcraft TCG which eventually became known today as Hearthstone there were talks about incorporating other intellectual properties into the game aside from just Comic Books. The only franchise that made the cut was Hellboy before Vs. System was shortly discontinued there on after. I still held out for Todd McFarlane's Spawn to be incorporated however it just wasn't meant to be unfortunately.

[blkdemonight]

I find it better for the community to Splinter even further.. if it's not differing ideas whether the RC or Wizards are correct regardless of argument, its the social norms.

[ISBPathfinder]

I still don't understand why people are mad at the RC on this. There is no precedent on their behalf that would indicate that they would ban something like this. These cards mechanically and game balance wise are not an issue.

Wizards did something really %$#% with this product. I don't see why people are holding the RC responsible for an action of wizards. It is true that the RC could make an extreme stand against this, but I still don't understand why people think that they would or that this is the RC's fault and not wizards.

The RC should not care about the price tag or availability of cards. Using this logic all of the reserve list should be banned as well. All of P3K should be banned. The mechanical game balance of these cards is not in question here and I agree with the RC that these cards should not be banned from where they stand. Wizards should have not bent us over a barrel and created this product how they did. Don't blame the RC for the sins of wizards.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@ISBPathfinder

I think a lot of the putrage is directed at the RC because they, unlike WotC, are receptive to public pressure without needing a profit motive as an additional incentive to cooperate. That all being said, I agree that targeting the RC for not issuing functionally flaccid, largely symbolic ultimatums (like many hysterical people among us might suggest) is pretty dumb and shortsighted. The RC is not a perfect entity, but I will always prefer them as the devil I know to WotC, who has shown with standard the quality of their format management skills.

[ISBPathfinder]

@ISBPathfinder

I think a lot of the putrage is directed at the RC because they, unlike WotC, are receptive to public pressure without needing a profit motive as an additional incentive to cooperate. That all being said, I agree that targeting the RC for not issuing functionally flaccid, largely symbolic ultimatums (like many hysterical people among us might suggest) is pretty dumb and shortsighted. The RC is not a perfect entity, but I will always prefer them as the devil I know to WotC, who has shown with standard the quality of their format management skills.

There have been a lot of new products sold outside of standard set releases. Sure, this one is more expensive and isn't being sold through LGS but its not like you couldn't use the same argument on the brawl products that recently released, or perhaps some of the premium priced packs with new cards, or even commander decks if you wanted.

I don't think that the expectation of the RC banning a product for monetary reasons is realistic. Sure, wizards really stepped over a new line with this product but its not as if they haven't been doing exactly the same thing for the last 8-10 years focusing product on commander players.

These cards are at least mostly fair cards. Its not the hill I plan to die on. There have been far more outrageous cards released in recent years and while they might have been more available and cheaper, I am a lot more for banning cards on their in game performance than their price tag and availability. Availability and price issues are failures of wizards, not the RC.

[JWK]

I find the comparison between this Secret Lair and things like the Brawl and Commander decks to be a pretty poor one. It might be valid if those products were available for a week only, and only through only one or very few sources, but that just isn't the case. The brawl decks were in short supply when they first came out, but then they were reprinted, and cards like Korvold seem to be plenty available (he's less than $7 on TCG Player). I can still get all of this year's Commander decks, and most of the previous year's, for their original price at my local Wal-Mart, and last time I looked some of the ones from previous years were still available at walmart.com... not to mention that the two LGSs I shop at still have ample supplies of both recent sets and some strays from earlier years.

Sure, Fierce Guardianship is $35-37 on the secondary market, but for a little more I can get it and some useful staples from Wal-Mart or my LGS. It will probably be going for a lot more than that in a few years if it isn't reprinted in future commander sets, but does anyone want to guess what Rick and Negan will be going for in that same timeframe if we haven't gotten an in-MtG version by then?

None of which is relevant to the ire some are directing toward the RC, of course. Again, *they are not the bad guys in this situation.* This whole situation is on Wizards, and they continue to exactly crap-all to address it.

[toctheyounger]

None of which is relevant to the ire some are directing toward the RC, of course. Again, *they are not the bad guys in this situation.* This whole situation is on Wizards, and they continue to exactly crap-all to address it.

All of this. The RC were between a rock and a hard place, this one is all on Wizards.

Although, MaRo did say he was sorry that we hated it so much. Which is a loaded apology if ever I heard one. I bet the corporate team is sorry all the way to the bank, too.

[ISBPathfinder]

I find the comparison between this Secret Lair and things like the Brawl and Commander decks to be a pretty poor one. It might be valid if those products were available for a week only, and only through only one or very few sources, but that just isn't the case. The brawl decks were in short supply when they first came out, but then they were reprinted, and cards like Korvold seem to be plenty available (he's less than $7 on TCG Player). I can still get all of this year's Commander decks, and most of the previous year's, for their original price at my local Wal-Mart, and last time I looked some of the ones from previous years were still available at walmart.com... not to mention that the two LGSs I shop at still have ample supplies of both recent sets and some strays from earlier years.

Sure, Fierce Guardianship is $35-37 on the secondary market, but for a little more I can get it and some useful staples from Wal-Mart or my LGS. It will probably be going for a lot more than that in a few years if it isn't reprinted in future commander sets, but does anyone want to guess what Rick and Negan will be going for in that same timeframe if we haven't gotten an in-MtG version by then?

None of which is relevant to the ire some are directing toward the RC, of course. Again, *they are not the bad guys in this situation.* This whole situation is on Wizards, and they continue to exactly crap-all to address it.

I am not actually sure that there was a store within five hours of driving that ever had brawl decks of me. I never saw one of them not have I seen anyone who got their hands on them in person. I didn't actually try to track them down on the internet but I would say the availability of that product was about the same (maybe a little worse) for me than this one.

Lots of those commander decks can become impossible to get at their normal price assuming they can be found at all. How is this product any less of a problem than cards that are and have been $300+? I agree that this product doesn't need to be as expensive as it is but if someone randomly comes across Angus Mackenzie and decides they would love to play him as a commander how is it any different?

I get that its %$#% how much this game costs and wizards totally didn't need to escalate this issue to the level it is. I just don't understand having serious issues with a $50 product when on a yearly basis wizards comes out with 4-5 commander decks that cost $35 per assuming you can even get them at that price. This game isn't cheap and sure it sucks how they did this one, I just don't follow how this card costing money is a surprise. Should Fierce Guardianship or Teferi's Protection be banned because they also have a high price per card and are hard to come by? We won't know what the price tag of the cards from this set will demand in future years as there will be a big question of how many of this product get issued and if it ever gets reprinted that will dictate that.

I get that it sucks how much these brand new cards are. The distribution method also sucks. I don't understand that being something we need to ban cards for.

[Airi]

I still don't understand why people are mad at the RC on this. There is no precedent on their behalf that would indicate that they would ban something like this. These cards mechanically and game balance wise are not an issue.

Wizards did something really %$#% with this product. I don't see why people are holding the RC responsible for an action of wizards. It is true that the RC could make an extreme stand against this, but I still don't understand why people think that they would or that this is the RC's fault and not wizards.

The RC should not care about the price tag or availability of cards. Using this logic all of the reserve list should be banned as well. All of P3K should be banned. The mechanical game balance of these cards is not in question here and I agree with the RC that these cards should not be banned from where they stand. Wizards should have not bent us over a barrel and created this product how they did. Don't blame the RC for the sins of wizards.

As someone who does have serious issues with the RC over this, it's not that I'm blaming them for WotC's screw up with the cards. That rests on WotC, they've made a predatory decision in favor of trying to drive sales with FOMO.

What I do blame the RC for can be broken down in to two main parts: what I view their role should be (and clearly, they disagree, and are not going to budge on that), which is the matter of protecting their community, and what their view of the Secret Lair product and it's role in EDH appears to be,

The first, is more of a personal issue. They actively do not want to fill the role that I think they should be filling as arbiters of the format, and it's community. I can't change that, but it does drastically color how I view them, because I disagree.

As to the second, I took a lot of their reaction as essentially a way for them to facilitate WotC creating this type of product in a way that can "pass under the radar" better in the future, so to speak. By saying "We're the only format that could bear the weight of this kind of experimentation.", they're kind of advocating for seeing more of this, and are okay with WotC targeting EDH players for different profit avenues regardless of how predatory they may be. They talked a lot about discussing the lack of a widespread availability in terms of location, but not in terms of the time issue the product has, I don't know, something about the open invitation to do more of this type of thing really doesn't sit right with me.

And a third, but generally side point, I was incredibly disappointed with Sheldon/the RC comparing Negan to Nicol Bolas. That whole paragraph of their announcement was incredibly insensitive to the real world problems people have with the character, and why use of the card can be an issue. If they don't think he should be banned because of his character, fine. But don't just dismiss that kind of thing as not a big deal.

[Rorseph]

And a third, but generally side point, I was incredibly disappointed with Sheldon/the RC comparing Negan to Nicol Bolas. That whole paragraph of their announcement was incredibly insensitive to the real world problems people have with the character, and why use of the card can be an issue. If they don't think he should be banned because of his character, fine. But don't just dismiss that kind of thing as not a big deal.

I found that bit rather irksome as well. Sheldon definitely speaks from a place of privilege.