[Primer WIP] Trynn & Silvar Rebel Yell - a Multiplayer Conscious Deck

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Yeah but I bought that judge promo sword because I wanted to show it off with the other two for the set. In practice I expect it to eat it more often than it regularly does. I would prioritize towards pointing removal at it. Others......we still have people not playing shatters. For reasons I'm not familiar with.

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah but I bought that judge promo sword because I wanted to show it off with the other two for the set. In practice I expect it to eat it more often than it regularly does. I would prioritize towards pointing removal at it. Others......we still have people not playing shatters. For reasons I'm not familiar with.
I'd recommend running something other than Aggravated Assault. I mean, how many extra combat steps are you actually expecting to get with it? That card is seriously dangerous while sitting on the board, people are going to kill it. Just run Savage Beating or something else instead (which is far and away my favorite form of this effect, mostly because I really enjoy attacking people and then telling them that "Progenitus is going to give you a Savage Beating" as it 40s them). There's a million of those affects that don't go infinite, aren't telegraphed/on-board scary while being more mana efficient. For Aggravated Assault to be better than Savage Beating or World at War or whatever you need to activate it 3 times. That's just not really going to happen.

The only upside I can possibly think of is that it's old bordered. Even if you're going purely based on style Relentless Assault|vis is waaay cooler.

Scourge of the Throne is also a super fair and strong type of this effect. Seize the Day is another oldy if you're going big with the cat, less good if you're going wide.

I'd recommend against Grave Pact with the kitty and her friend as the generals.

I personally don't mind Meekstone because I don't feel like it locks people out of their creatures. They can still block. They still get one attack in. It's fairly easy to answer. It might draw the hatred of others though. Also it locks down your kitty so I don't even know that you'd want it since I think you'll be trying to voltron people out a fair amount. Using it in combination with Thalia, Heretic Cathar or whatever is much more annoying.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Oh, right, good call on the kitty. I got pulled into rebel tunnel vision where they could function under it. I'd be on some serious jank with Puppet Strings in order to break that symmetry, and I'm just not willing to jank out quite that much 😂.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

What do we think about Keldon Firebombers? It's a human to pitch to the altar of save the kitty, and it doesn't grind the game to a halt since you still have some lands to function.

That can't be any worse than blood moon|drk.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Yeah, but the correct choice is to run neither :P
 
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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

See previous statement about avoiding the urge to blow up lands. No mass land destruction, no messing with mana bases at large (I.E. Blood Moon and friends) if you are trying to be multiplayer conscious. Minimal, not-repeatable, single-target land hate is all you should reasonably need and even that is unlikely to earn you a table's good graces.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

In preparation for the primer, I've started drafting a thesis statement I can both believe in and defend. How does this sound?

"To build a deck enabled by cool, intrinsically powerful interactions, while not turning itself into a social pariah among any number of opponents. To create a deck capable of cleanly executing it's strategy, but not in such a way as to generate the same linear, efficient path to the execution of such a strategy."

Inb4 who writes a thesis for magic decks. Enter my life 😂😂
Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, but the correct choice is to run neither :P
Bu-bu-but my nonbasic hate. How is it feasible to not attack dumb butt nonbasic lands? Am I really only supposed to use single target removal?

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Bu-bu-but my nonbasic hate. How is it feasible to not attack dumb butt nonbasic lands? Am I really only supposed to use single target removal?
Yes.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Am I really only supposed to use single target removal?
Multi-target removal (if such a thing exists) can also be acceptable. Indiscriminate removal is the problem. You need to be able to discriminate with land destruction.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Am I really only supposed to use single target removal?
Multi-target removal (if such a thing exists) can also be acceptable. Indiscriminate removal is the problem. You need to be able to discriminate with land destruction.
That's it, really. Being able to willfully choose the most removal-worthy land and pop it shows good threat assessment to the table where more blanket coverage doesn't.

As well as that, there's a vibe of 'equal exchange' with the ones that replace with a basic, like Wave of Vitriol, Field of Ruin and such, so a lot of the time they kind of get a pass. Like, how mad can you realistically get? A Coffers is a Coffers, not a basic, so it's not the same thing, but if that's what you're running and you get upset it gets blown up you have not a single leg to stand on, and you were probably the archenemy.

I guess the long and short of it is keep your land destruction as fair or targeted/single targeted as possible.
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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Am I really only supposed to use single target removal?
Multi-target removal (if such a thing exists) can also be acceptable. Indiscriminate removal is the problem. You need to be able to discriminate with land destruction.
Notably, I recommend running particularly flexible removal options for lands, since it improves your political plays. Sure, you could run Stone Rain, the new Cleansing Wildfire (which is my favorite for pure land-hate since it lets everybody break even while still nuking the coffers or cradle), or the previously mentioned Avalanche Riders, but why limit yourself?

Befoul can answer the biggest creature or land threat on the field, Grip of Desolation or Into the Maw of Hell (both with metal AF names) answer a creature and a problem land, and of course Star of Extinction (usually) blows up the board while dealing with the problem- all of which have more political potential than just hitting a land or hating on non-basics.

To say nothing of the various "destroy target permanent" cards like Vindicate and Generous Gift, which are nice catch-all options. All about the flexibility.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So I posted the first draft. We're about twenty-six cards over to hit our goal of thirty-seven lands.

Do I really care about the diamonds? Ring/Crypt yeah, but how much do I care about casting extraneous ramp when I could be expanding my rebel presence?

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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
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Snipped out anything that I have thoughts on from the base deck. I'm not particularly wild abount banding as a mechanic as it tends to be a pain to track and generally considered "unfun" to play with. I obviously see what you're going for but you might do better with going with something else- especially with nixing the Pariah effects. The Distorting Lens feels iffy to use a slot on, obviously it makes your numerous protection effects more relevant, but it's a small enough part of the deck that you might be able to do better. Similarly, I don't know that the Deathmantle helps you too much and it is another "known" part of several infinites that might get you hated out- even though you may have no intention of employing said infinites.

Six tutors isn't in my estimation too much for most decks, but you'll be doing a lot of tutoring and shuffling with your chosen tribe already (which may annoy people- it shouldn't, but some people feel this slows the game down). More, as noted before, there is always the risk that you'll either A.) start going for your infinite when it's the clearest path to a win or B.) start trying to go for the most efficient play possible when you're running a pile of tutors, so you may still want to reduce this number. I'm not sure the Anvil is actually helping you too much in the long game, and I'm pretty sure you can manage more efficient card advantage than Ancient Craving.

I personally don't like either Crypt/Vault or Moxen, both tend to feel like very tryhard cEDH territory and I think you're trying to avoid this impression with this deck. Mostly personal preference, but I know I'm far from the only person with that perspective and that perception could be key in avoiding early hate.

Goblin Bombardment is neat but I don't think your creature or token output is quite big enough to make it worth the slot. I have also personally been wildly unimpressed wtih Verge Rangers in practice and recommend going for something else. The catchup mechanic is fun but it works waaaay less often than it should (even with your free shuffles) and the body isn't all that great when it isn't doing its job. I see Noble Purpose listed as protection, but I'm not sure what it's protecting? Your life total? Maybe this is supposed to be Reconnaissance? Recon definitely works in this deck regardless.

As for removal I don't like the generic blue hate cards. As much as I despise counterspell and friends the "off color pie" red counterspells always feel strange to me and the surprise gotcha for players unfamiliar with them can be a source of bad feels. In general counterspells tend to earn hate, so you may just want to not bother with them even if they are more lol worthy than their blue counterparts. I think you can do better than Terror for removal and I'm not sure this is the right deck for Living Death- it's more "fair" than a lot of your other decks and Living Death and fair plays usually results in somebody else getting more value out of it than you.

Still don't recommend including both combo pieces in theAggravated Assault SoFaF combo, at least not with the tutoring options attached. Finally, the Changeling Berserker is the only championing changeling who I have been consistently unimpressed with. I like my champion creatures to be able to get a bit more value and the three toughness has never felt good.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

FenrirRex wrote:
3 years ago
Snipped out anything that I have thoughts on from the base deck. I'm not particularly wild about banding as a mechanic as it tends to be a pain to track and generally considered "unfun" to play with. I obviously see what you're going for but you might do better with going with something else- especially with nixing the Pariah effects. The Distorting Lens feels iffy to use a slot on, obviously it makes your numerous protection effects more relevant, but it's a small enough part of the deck that you might be able to do better. Similarly, I don't know that the Deathmantle helps you too much and it is another "known" part of several infinites that might get you hated out- even though you may have no intention of employing said infinites.

Six tutors isn't in my estimation too much for most decks, but you'll be doing a lot of tutoring and shuffling with your chosen tribe already (which may annoy people- it shouldn't, but some people feel this slows the game down). More, as noted before, there is always the risk that you'll either A.) start going for your infinite when it's the clearest path to a win or B.) start trying to go for the most efficient play possible when you're running a pile of tutors, so you may still want to reduce this number. I'm not sure the Anvil is actually helping you too much in the long game, and I'm pretty sure you can manage more efficient card advantage than Ancient Craving.

I personally don't like either Crypt/Vault or Moxen, both tend to feel like very tryhard cEDH territory and I think you're trying to avoid this impression with this deck. Mostly personal preference, but I know I'm far from the only person with that perspective and that perception could be key in avoiding early hate.

Goblin Bombardment is neat but I don't think your creature or token output is quite big enough to make it worth the slot. I have also personally been wildly unimpressed wtih Verge Rangers in practice and recommend going for something else. The catchup mechanic is fun but it works waaaay less often than it should (even with your free shuffles) and the body isn't all that great when it isn't doing its job. I see Noble Purpose listed as protection, but I'm not sure what it's protecting? Your life total? Maybe this is supposed to be Reconnaissance? Recon definitely works in this deck regardless.

As for removal I don't like the generic blue hate cards. As much as I despise counterspell and friends the "off color pie" red counterspells always feel strange to me and the surprise gotcha for players unfamiliar with them can be a source of bad feels. In general counterspells tend to earn hate, so you may just want to not bother with them even if they are more lol worthy than their blue counterparts. I think you can do better than Terror for removal and I'm not sure this is the right deck for Living Death- it's more "fair" than a lot of your other decks and Living Death and fair plays usually results in somebody else getting more value out of it than you.

Still don't recommend including both combo pieces in theAggravated Assault SoFaF combo, at least not with the tutoring options attached. Finally, the Changeling Berserker is the only championing changeling who I have been consistently unimpressed with. I like my champion creatures to be able to get a bit more value and the three toughness has never felt good.
Fantastic, thank you, let's see if we can't break this down further so I can see the error in my thought processes that believed these were for the better.

So, the banding enablers are both a thematic include (rebels working together against THE MAN), but as well if any deck was a banding deck, it was Silvar, the damage sponge. This is the kitty's time to shine. I really don't want to cut my banding cards.

I'm much less sold on Distorting Lens, it's a "combo" with light/lawbringer, and the dunerider outlaw. I'm not married to it, and if it goes, I'd cut the other three rebels too, which opens up four slots.

I'm not sure how to play with fewer tutours than available in my card pool. In Alesha, I had somewhere in the vicinity of 15% of my deck were tutours, mostly hard tutours, plus fetchlands. Which is a lot. They're so good, it's pretty hard to cut them. Do I cut one? Probably Gamble if I had to. Maybe grim tutour is a cut. Intent is pretty much a second demonic here, which feels very very strong.

I don 't care too terribly much about Deathmantle either. Obviously it lets me keep my best guy in a wrath, but I do have Tortured Existence for that. I don't have an issue removing that.

In trying to stick to old face cards, ancient craving is one of the better draw spells, right after Skeletal Scrying. There's Skulltap for the smaller version of the effect, which I think is playable though. I probably want both. I like Anvil of Bogardan, and I got a sweet French version of it. It's fairly political in giving no max handsize and helping with a Jin-Gitaxias problem and overall does more than a Howling Mine. If I cut this, I'd think I'd need something similar in it's spot, but it's gonna be a tough sell. On the other hand, I have lots of mana dumps in my creatures, and in a way that's seeing more cards like drawing would, only putting them from deck to board instead of hand.

I'm pretty OK with dumping mana crypt for the vibe we're going for. I'd like another piece of ramp for it, though. Or even better, a way to Sift through the deck more to hit my land drops. Not sure if you saw, but I did scratch the mox for Revel in Riches, which is wonderfully on-theme I think. A rare not old frame card for inclusion.

Goblin Bombardment is one of the best sac outlets as it's free, repeatable, and instant speed. More of those are important, no? I have two altars, but is that really enough? That's my concern.

Are Verge Rangers really bad? Are they at least better than General Kudro of Drannith? I'd sooner see the general go than the rangers, since I need to ensure I can hit my land drops. General is a bit more thematically appropriate, I'd guess though.

Noble Purpose is indeed protecting my life total. I'm not married to it at all. It was just a precaution so I don't kill myself, it seemed reasonably in line with True Conviction...not the greatest comparison, sure.

Living Death is a fine cut, I might need another sweeper though. Kirtar's Wrath could do the trick, I suppose. Sweep and get a pair of spirits. On the other hand I might let Fire Covenant go since it'll kill me in a long game.

I really don't want to let go of my swords. They're so beautiful. I'd have to let Agg Ass go first, which I think I'm okay with?

I find Terror to be reasonable and efficient at what it needs to do, especially by old frame standards. Worse than Terminate, better than Hideous End. Could be a Diabolic Edict though.

Being at the mercy of any xu deck seems a hard pill to swallow, not that REB > a blue mage's counter suite, but it beats a stick in the eye. Maybe cut the two, add in fork, then I have one slot freed up?

The champion a creature is to pull out and blank a removal spell, or keep a key guy in the event of a wrath *cough cough* Lin Sivvi *cough cough*. There's only two in the colour identity though, so it's the best I got. Though I could always get a Whitemane Lion for this role, but it lacks the tribe bonuses.

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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Fantastic, thank you, let's see if we can't break this down further so I can see the error in my thought processes that believed these were for the better.

So, the banding enablers are both a thematic include (rebels working together against THE MAN), but as well if any deck was a banding deck, it was Silvar, the damage sponge. This is the kitty's time to shine. I really don't want to cut my banding cards.

I'm much less sold on Distorting Lens, it's a "combo" with light/lawbringer, and the dunerider outlaw. I'm not married to it, and if it goes, I'd cut the other three rebels too, which opens up four slots.

I'm not sure how to play with fewer tutours than available in my card pool. In Alesha, I had somewhere in the vicinity of 15% of my deck were tutours, mostly hard tutours, plus fetchlands. Which is a lot. They're so good, it's pretty hard to cut them. Do I cut one? Probably Gamble if I had to. Maybe grim tutour is a cut. Intent is pretty much a second demonic here, which feels very very strong.

I don 't care too terribly much about Deathmantle either. Obviously it lets me keep my best guy in a wrath, but I do have Tortured Existence for that. I don't have an issue removing that.

In trying to stick to old face cards, ancient craving is one of the better draw spells, right after Skeletal Scrying. There's Skulltap for the smaller version of the effect, which I think is playable though. I probably want both. I like Anvil of Bogardan, and I got a sweet French version of it. It's fairly political in giving no max handsize and helping with a Jin-Gitaxias problem and overall does more than a Howling Mine. If I cut this, I'd think I'd need something similar in it's spot, but it's gonna be a tough sell. On the other hand, I have lots of mana dumps in my creatures, and in a way that's seeing more cards like drawing would, only putting them from deck to board instead of hand.

I'm pretty OK with dumping mana crypt for the vibe we're going for. I'd like another piece of ramp for it, though. Or even better, a way to Sift through the deck more to hit my land drops. Not sure if you saw, but I did scratch the mox for Revel in Riches, which is wonderfully on-theme I think. A rare not old frame card for inclusion.

Goblin Bombardment is one of the best sac outlets as it's free, repeatable, and instant speed. More of those are important, no? I have two altars, but is that really enough? That's my concern.

Are Verge Rangers really bad? Are they at least better than General Kudro of Drannith? I'd sooner see the general go than the rangers, since I need to ensure I can hit my land drops. General is a bit more thematically appropriate, I'd guess though.

Noble Purpose is indeed protecting my life total. I'm not married to it at all. It was just a precaution so I don't kill myself, it seemed reasonably in line with True Conviction...not the greatest comparison, sure.

Living Death is a fine cut, I might need another sweeper though. Kirtar's Wrath could do the trick, I suppose. Sweep and get a pair of spirits. On the other hand I might let Fire Covenant go since it'll kill me in a long game.

I really don't want to let go of my swords. They're so beautiful. I'd have to let Agg Ass go first, which I think I'm okay with?

I find Terror to be reasonable and efficient at what it needs to do, especially by old frame standards. Worse than Terminate, better than Hideous End. Could be a Diabolic Edict though.

Being at the mercy of any xu deck seems a hard pill to swallow, not that REB > a blue mage's counter suite, but it beats a stick in the eye. Maybe cut the two, add in fork, then I have one slot freed up?

The champion a creature is to pull out and blank a removal spell, or keep a key guy in the event of a wrath *cough cough* Lin Sivvi *cough cough*. There's only two in the colour identity though, so it's the best I got. Though I could always get a Whitemane Lion for this role, but it lacks the tribe bonuses.
Excellent, I love the explanations let's get into it! Re: Banding if you feel strongly about it then I'll offer no further commentary, but it being famously one of the only mechanics to get ousted for complexity leaves it in a rough spot for how people tend to respond to it.

Freeing up four slots by nixing the lense and its synergies seems potentially viable, maybe give you the option to run some more interaction? The deck still feels a little instant-speed interaction light, especially when it has the ability to hold up mana for rebel tutors.

For tutors it all comes down to intent. If you think you can maintain the spirit of the deck, I.E. tutoring primarily for interaction or creatures rather than engines or ways to close out the game, than you're golden. The concern is if you think you can avoid those more obvious lines- tutors can be a crutch that is easy to lean on, and you may find that the tables overall experience is improved by nixing tutors altogether and replacing them with just hard card advantage. It will be less consistent by design, but you may find you have more fun than you'd expect by leaving your plays more up to luck.

Definitely cut the Deathmantle if you are not married to it since it sends some negative signals, could be replaced with more value plays. As far as card advantage options vs. Anvil or Craving, I have a distinct fondness for Greed, Dregs of Sorrow is wildly inefficient but does decent double duty, I believe Night's Whisper has an old frame printing, and Syphon Mind is a rare example of a discard effect that most people won't get mad about (I mean, it's drawing you cards, why wouldn't you play it!?).

Between the two altars and your commander I think you can get away with cutting the Bombardment- more often than not there are not relevant X/1 targets either, so you'll just end up pinging people's faces, which is not particularly politically positive.

I agree that you can cut Living Death and probably Fire Covenant too for more standard wrath effects- while it's higher in mana cost than you may like, Decree of Pain does a metric ton of work as a dork killer early and mad card draw later.

Definitely embrace cutting Aggravated Assault- removing even the temptation of an infinite in the deck will be healthy for it, and you can consider turning that into more interaction or a less "offensive" additional combat step options- Relentless Assault or Seize the Day will do a lot of what you would do with Aggravated "fairly," without people getting salty at infinites.

I love ramp and strongly recommed just replacing the 0 mana ramp with more "fair" options- Fellwar Stone and Coalition Relic spring to mind for older cards.

My meta is full of black decks so Terror is more dead than I like, but the options for two mana or less interaction are... more sparse than I remember in old border. Similarly, I won't harp further on the political implications of Pyroblast et al., but I do like the option of Fork instead since it also gives you greater flexibility.

As far as the champion goes, I see the synergy, I just question how valid in play it actually is and I tend to like more long-term plan cards like the Tortured Existence or a potential replacement in the form of Phyrexian Reclamation.

Finally, yes, I do genuinely think the Verge Rangers are in the running for one of the worst cards in the deck. I know it looks real good on paper, but they get cut real fast from every deck I've tried them in. The fact that they require that you both be behind in lands and luck in to having lands on top when you're already behind is some rough stuff when that slot could be your own mana fixing, ramp, or card advantage that are actually guaranteed to do their job.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So that brings us to 71. We're about eight cards off from our target. Or eleven from our target if I add the MIR diamonds back in.

Night's Whisper and Coalition Relic are not old face cards, though it has been years since they were first created. I dropped Anger cause without Entomb and friends, it's pretty clunky to get in the yard. Though I'd like to add Reanimate because it's just too good to not use...that makes us nine or twelve cards off the mark.

Who'd have thunk Rebels would have this many options?!

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I can see the concessions you're making in the build, and it looks like a deck that would be fine to play against from a multiplayer perspective. As such, mission accomplished!

I don't think you need the altars. I highly doubt you'll be feeding your rebels to it, and your only source of repeatable gum is Trynn. And Silvar's already sitting there, cutlery in hand, waiting to consume it. Guess there are some lines where you get them online with Skullclamp, but is that worth devoting space in the 99 for? Ye olde debate of ceiling and floor.

Reanimate feels like a strange include, you don't seem to have much synergy with it. You're not exactly filling up your own 'yard, and you're not spamming removal super hard (thankfully!), so it's possible it will be relatively dead.

Given the fact you're a creature deck, three wraths might be a bit high. I'll second that Terror doesn't seem to do a lot. Dip below ten pieces of interaction! You know you want to! Well fine, you probably don't want to, but it's nevertheless a thought you could entertain.
 
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
I'm not sure how to play with fewer tutours than available in my card pool.
I can recommend a very efficient way to learn.
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 years ago
I can see the concessions you're making in the build, and it looks like a deck that would be fine to play against from a multiplayer perspective. As such, mission accomplished!

I don't think you need the altars. I highly doubt you'll be feeding your rebels to it, and your only source of repeatable gum is Trynn. And Silvar's already sitting there, cutlery in hand, waiting to consume it. Guess there are some lines where you get them online with Skullclamp, but is that worth devoting space in the 99 for? Ye olde debate of ceiling and floor.

Reanimate feels like a strange include, you don't seem to have much synergy with it. You're not exactly filling up your own 'yard, and you're not spamming removal super hard (thankfully!), so it's possible it will be relatively dead.

Given the fact you're a creature deck, three wraths might be a bit high. I'll second that Terror doesn't seem to do a lot. Dip below ten pieces of interaction! You know you want to! Well fine, you probably don't want to, but it's nevertheless a thought you could entertain.
Reanimate on it's own is a helluva value card, like a b Regrowth. Since it hits any yard, grabs any target, permanently, for such a low cost. It's as close to an evergreen card as Demonic Tutor. I get weird tingly feelings whenever I attempt to not play this. It's like getting a solid match from your employer in your 401k and saying "no thanks, I don't want the free money".

Three wraths is probably about right, Alesha played the same way and three is where I stuck. It's about making sure I see one when the time calls for one, and everyone needs to have that option. And I think removing Terror makes my already light interaction even lighter. Besides, imagine the looks when a player summons up their mightiest new dragon or warrior, and they still eat it to the lowly, humble Terror that's existed since Alpha...

Are you saying I'm better off with a Diamond Valley or Phyrexian Tower in the mana base, while buying a couple of slots from the altars, so I can still have light sacrifice play without going full on aristocrats? Of course, I could replace one with Helm of Possession and the other with Ritual of the Machine for the one-shot with strong upside. No one expects the perma theft outta the non-U deck after all.
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
I'm not sure how to play with fewer tutours than available in my card pool.
I can recommend a very efficient way to learn.
Which is? Sorry, your post comes across as very cryptic and I'm not following.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

You could just not run the tutors for a crash course at not running tutors :P
 
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 years ago
You could just not run the tutors for a crash course at not running tutors :P
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Which is? Sorry, your post comes across as very cryptic and I'm not following.
Rumpy got it. Though to be fair, when I usually tell people to cut all their tutors, my recommended replacement is card draw, which is admittedly a bit tougher in old border mardu.

Edit: here's a learning moment in subtle politics: staying off people's radar. Universal tutors, the ones that don't require you to show what you picked, are an unavoidable implicit threat. If you search your library for anything and people don't know what it is, they play as though you searched up a game winning threat and you must be stopped. If you voluntarily reveal what you searched for to try and avoid that, people will A)question why you didn't search for something more threatening and B) recognize that you're trying to avoid being perceived as a threat, and ultimately they'll suspect you were already the problem before you tutored. The exception being when you tutor a removal spell and use it on someone else's threat immediately, and only if that threat absolutely needed an immediate answer. Limited tutors mostly avoid that, you have to show what you got so your motives are irrelevant, and people can see medium looking tutor targets as the best option because you were limited in what you could pick.

From the card draw perspective, lots of players will destroy a Phyrexian Arena given the chance, but only the most mindful will properly assess how much of an additional threat you are based on 1 card draw each turn. Drawing 1 extra card for 7 turns can fly under the radar, drawing 7 cards all at once will make you archenemy very quickly.
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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

I think the number of wraths is fine and could even be increased by one without doing any damage to the deck. Having reset buttons is good for a table altogether and Silvar being able to survive through them with indestructible can itself be a route to victory that is clear and on the table.

lol @tutor chat in general- I'll continue to recommend cutting them to try to embrace a more casual game plan, though as @tstorm823 notes it's a lot harder to do the 1-for-1 replacement of tutor for card advantage with your choice of card limitation. The best tutors for multiplayer/politics are either random or have limited targets. Putting Gamble back in (so the table can laugh along with you if you pitch your tutor) and keeping Enlightened Tutor while cutting the rest would be a potentially recommendable middle ground. Otherwise going cold turkey on tutors could improve the tables play experience (if not your own, initially, but I think the former is the goal still).

Related to Enlightened Tutor and Reanimate, I don't think your deck has enough juicy targets for it to be worth it, and I think Animate Dead could serve you better if you keep Enlightened. Similar effect, the table can interact better with it, and you are not punching yourself in the face to steal the other player's nine drop. That said, I might say cutting them altogether could be best since you've already got Tortured Existence and Phyrexian Reclamation to keep your own value train running.

Another old-border piece of that also gives you some interaction is Attrition and the classic maybe-free Snuff Out is a thing, though I really don't like how soft your removal suite is to black decks and might consider looking at making some concessions to new border for both removal and card advantage- no one has to look at it for more than a second before it's from hand to grave anyway.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

We're down to sixty-six, which means just three slots left to cut to hit our goal. I think thirty-seven lands is a great sweet spot.

I've always used the garruk vs liliana Snuff Out|mmq, I forgot it actually does have a Masques print. That seems an easy swap for our critically maligned Terror|leb.

What I'm reading here is "cut Vampiric Tutor|vis for Gamble|usg", keep demonic because having one universal tutour is paramount to many facets of play, and diabolic intent still has the "cost" to it.

Animate dead|leb is a great call over reanimate|tmp. Necromancy is probably better, though not strictly so, sure. I do like how that beta animate dead looks though, and it matches all my basics.

attrition|uds is a great look, and furthers the small enchantment subtheme, as well as gives us the sac outlet we lose by cutting the altars. With a couple more enchantments, I might even have justification to add in Replenish and Academy Rector. oh, hey, that pariah|usg sure does look awful tempting.....plus, then Serra's Sanctum comes onto the table.

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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

Your reading is definitely selective on what we're saying for tutors. I think the perfect middle ground for tutors in this deck is to run Gamble and Enlightened definitely, with Diabolic as your universal option if you feel you need it since it at least looks a little less threatening to the rest of the table. Rector would also be fine, limited tutors are better than tutors with hidden information. Replenish is less good if you are not stocking your graveyard, so I would say I'm not sold here.

As for Pariah:
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