Livio & Kamahl - ETB Ramp Flicker

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago


I started out by looking at Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel as a commander and asking myself how I would build it and who to partner with. My first thought was that green gives ramp creatures and untap effects and so I was immediately in green. Kodama of the East Tree was a consideration but I felt like with focusing on Livio I was going to have a hard time drawing sufficiently to support Kodama well. The board setup to get all of that setup also seemed really hard and mana intensive. I decided instead to go with Kamahl, Heart of Krosa as a finisher as he felt like he paired well with a lot of the ETB creatures of the deck.

So, I guess the idea here is a bit of ramp and ETB removal. Livio lets me play sort of responsively even though most of the creatures in here lack flash and I am not running that many instants.

Decklist

ARTIFACT (3)

PLANESWALKER

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 years ago, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I ended up playing four games this weekend with this deck. I believe I won two of the four. One of the two losses was more or less a situation of one of my two opponents having a perfect hand against me as well as me lacking removal to interact with him. He chained three removal spells and the last of which gave his commander flying and let him clock me for 10 then 11 turn after turn. The other loss was a situation of a 5c Sisay deck getting enough setup to tutor Elesh Norn into play and back her with Avacyn. We couldn't stop him and it spiraled out of control. The two games I won were strong games of me hitting a ton of ramp / flickering them / finishing with Kamahl beats. My primary issues in these games seemed to be lack of draw and occasionally lack of defense vs flyers / tramplers. Primarily though I ended up getting answered and didn't have answers for the problems that I encountered. I am going to be pushing a bit on some more draw, pushing a few things around, and adding a little lifegain to the mix. Obviously four games of 3 player FFA are far from a conclusive on any front but I got to play the list and am looking forward to updating and playing it more.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Stoneforge MysticTireless Tracker I realized I was never really going to love Stoneforge in this list. Some of the equipment felt forced to make stoneforge have enough targets but it also was going to have diminishing returns if I flicker it which makes it kind of a weird Elvish Visionary that gets worse as I draw / get my equipment. I just didn't see enough equipment that I felt strongly about either so I decided to go away from him. With all of the ramp and mana generation as well as keeping mana up for stuff I felt like the tracker was something I should probably test at least. I did have some issues with not having enough draw and the fact that its a green creature makes it easier to get as well.
  • Bramble SovereignVoice of Many Bramble is a cool card but it also doesn't do much until you follow it up. This deck is so mana hungry though trying to flicker ETB creatures and then trying to pay two mana on top of that flicker to clone them. I had some fun times with it already but I think I am realizing that while its cool, its a bit clunkier than I want. Extra demands on my mana aren't great and the only reason it sort of worked out for me is that I lacked draw. How about just having some decent sounding draw instead and see how that goes.
  • Selfless SquireOracle of Mul Daya as cool as constantly giving people the middle finger with Squire sounds, I think I should probably do something a little more proactive. The problem with the Squire is its really only useful when people start sending around really big number of attackers. I have been struggling to get a little more draw kind of stuff and I think Oracle fits what I need here. This deck can shuffle a lot given the ramp guys so I think I can make Oracle work out.
  • Tolsimir, Friend to WolvesSoul Warden Tolsimir was an interesting thought and I like the concept of the card a lot. The restriction of what a bolt can kill though is kind of narrow removal for a sorcery 5 drop though. Even abusing him didn't feel like it was that great. I did find myself being widdled down especially from air attackers or tramplers so I figured I should probably find a way to boost my life. I like the Soul Warden type creatures in that they are easy to ignore and not a big investment on my end. I guess we will see how they perform for me. The green one is technically stronger given a few green creature only tutors but I am bringing that one in too.
  • Meteor GolemLuminate Primordial I decided that while the targeting of the golem is better I like Primordial hitting each opponent and being exile more. If I have issues not having enough naturalize effects there are plenty of ways I can address it so I opted to move to the primordial for now.
  • Darksteel PlateEnlightened Tutor I decided to scrap my equipment toolbox as well as equipment tutors. Darksteel Plate is a card that performed a lot better for me in the past before a bunch of exile, bounce, -/-, and edict removal got printed in more recent years. My commander is cheap and I plan to ramp so I guess that is going to be my primary defense for now. With Enlightened Tutor, I felt like tutoring for Awakening will be high on my list but even beyond that there are a number of very powerful enchantments in the list between ramp and even Aura Shards that I could see myself using this for. Turn one tutoring Sylvan Library could even be something for getting more lands and or smoothing early turns so while its card disadvantage I felt like there were a lot of situations where it more than makes up for the one card disadvantage it is.
  • HeartstoneSylvan Library I think Heartstone is still cool for Livio but ultimately I think its a bit winmore. Its going to make already good situations easier but its not going to solve a lot of problems I might have with this deck. I needed more card advantage and while Library isn't great at drawing extra cards selecting the cards I need for the turn before shuffling is a type of card advantage. It lets me set up things for Oracle of Mul Daya or just push things I don't need back into the deck. I can also burn life to draw more cards as needed. I was hesitant to add it originally but I think it is something I need for now.
  • Sword of Feast and FamineEssence Warden Cutting back on my equipment package. I do think that the effect of SoF&F is good, but I lack evasive creatures to carry it in and a lot of my creatures lack size as well. Its possible that the protections may get me through but I didn't feel like it fit the deck that well. Livio also doesn't want to carry it and if I put it on an ETB creature it becomes harder to flicker them as the equipment falls off which is a pain. I decided to cut it and I felt like a small bit of lifegain would help me stay in games. We will see how the Soul Warden effects perform but I feel like I either need to put more on lifegain or defense vs flyers and tramplers. I felt like the cost to cast these effects was positive and they don't draw a lot of attention without something that triggers per lifegain trigger.
  • Beast WithinMangara of Corondor I might go back to Beast Withing / Generous Gift later but I found that I wanted things I could abuse or cast for less for now. Its true that I often have three mana up but I had some issues with indestructibility this weekend when I played against a lot of gods and Avacyn and I found that I wanted something to abuse and or cast for less rather than the wide targeting of these effects. This might change with more playtesting and my sample size was narrow but we will see. Mangara is good repeatable removal with Livio being able to flicker her before her ability resolves.
  • Generous GiftUnexpectedly Absent I have been a big fan of Unexpectedly Absent for a long time now. I thought maybe I would prefer some of the three mana destroys but I found the need to interact with indestructible targets this weekend. This might change and it can be a pain to try to push a threat deep enough to put it off or force them to shuffle it away with unexpected so I more view it as a Boomerang effect that forces your opponent to redraw the card but I think it might be where I want to be for now.
  • Teferi's ProtectionScavenging Ooze I realized I had zero grave hate. I probably need to add more than just this as well. I will see what I can do to bring this count up. I didn't find the need to protect a whole board to be very important as Livio can do that for me. I also have a good amount of recursion.
  • Hour of PromiseSwords to Plowshares I like what Hour does but it feels sort of like taking a turn off to utility ramp. Its still a good effect I just don't like how slow it feels without really affecting the board immediately. Pir's Whim for example gives me some disruption and Ulvenwald Hydra a big blocker. I wanted to move some of my more expensive removal to being cheaper and easier to keep up while doing Livio tactics. I found too often that the three to four mana instants would be up but at the cost of not doing all of the Livio things I wanted for the turn sort of costing me in the end.
  • Finale of DevastationSurvival of the Fittest just moving tutors around a little. Finale might be useful on higher mana for the pump effect but I think Survival is going to give me better value. Having Reveillark, Sun Titan, Eternal Witness, and Karmic Guide to support it as well I think its better to use survival for shenanigans.
  • Hall of the Bandit LordOpal Palace I did end up having an issue this weekend where Livio got held down repeatedly a few times. I think its possible for something like a Sword of Fire and Ice or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to cause me a bit of an issue and I think adding the Palace instead of the Hall seems a bit better as far as colorless lands go not taking a bolt for mana all the time is probably more useful even if it has its places.
  • 1 PlainsField of the Dead I realized that the zombies might be useful with Earthcraft or Gaea's Cradle effects. They also give me bodies for Kamahl attacks and while I do have to watch how many colorless lands I add here I feel like I might still be able to sqeeze one more in for now.
  • Split basics with snow basics - to support Field of the Dead.
  • EDIT: GhostwayParallax Wave I gave it some thought and I think Parallax Wave has some interesting uses in flickering my own creatures, defending my commander, or possibly harassing opponents creatures / commanders. The fact that I could theoretically flicker a Naturalize ETB creature and smash the wave with up to five exiles on the stack seems great.
I am keeping an eye on the flicker tricks as well. I think I still like them but Ghostway and such are a little bit redundant with my commander and I tend to try to use him over the one shot tricks due to it being a reusable resource. It makes keeping three mana up to cast these in a pinch harder. Its possible I might cut one of them (probably ghostway) for Ephemerate which is easier to cast and can still protect my commander or give me value. I am going to let them ride for now but I wasn't as impressed with them as I had hoped to be.

EDIT: so, for homework I need to find a way to increase my grave hate and find room for Tragic Arrogance. I probably want a bare minimum of two grave hate effects. I don't really want to hit my own graveyard and I probably want the option to get a card draw out of it as a possibility so it might mean I need to go back to Soul-Guide Lantern.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I have been poking at a few things trying to come up with a few solutions to some counts. I wanted to push another wrath and another graveyard hate effect into the list previously which I think I found a way to do finally.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Eerie InterludeAluren I didn't realize but apparently Aluren bypasses the need to pay commander tax as well. I think its a very interesting way to sort of keep Livio in play as it forces opponents to also kill Aluren if they want to really slow me down at all. The fact that I have so many cheap ETB creatures in the deck also I think benefits me a lot more than my opponents with Aluren. Its true that it also makes it much harder for me to disrupt their commanders due to the same protection it gives me on Livio but I think its something I want to test. Its potentially a good tempo effect that also gives some level of protection to my primary plan commander. Eerie Interlude felt a little redundant to Livio and while it can protect him, being a one shot with similar mana use as my commander I wasn't really all that impressed with it as it took a lot of mana up to use Livio how I wanted him in a turn and to also have Eerie Interlude up still. I think Aluren will be a better effect for the deck but I guess we will see when I can test it.
  • ExploreTragic Arrogance I LOVE Explore. But there is one thing holding it back in this list and that is that Livio is a two drop commander that I tend to give priority to. It means that most of my two mana plays get delayed and while I still think Explore seems like a good effect on turn three, I have a lot of three mana creatures with ramp that I would probably also prioritize on curve. Explore does have its best effect earlier rather than later and due to this, I think its actually a little awkward in this list. Tragic Arrogance is a great wrath but what is interesting is I can hide away my team behind Livio and fire it off to blow out my opponents. I was feeling a bit sweeper light before so hopefully this helps some. I also considered possibly going with a creature based sweep effect such as Magus of the Disk or Cataclysmic Gearhulk but ultimately I couldn't quite feel like I could fit those in due to needing haste for disk and the issue of opponents getting to select with the gearhulk.
  • Soul WardenScavenger Grounds I want to test the wardens still. That said I also needed to find room for more grave hate. I guess we will go down to just one of them for now. Essence Warden is the superior one due to being green (tutoring purposes) so we will go down to just that. I considered Soul-Guide Lantern for the grave hate I would add but I decided instead that bumping up my land count by one was acceptable for a colorless utility land and I have a few ways to tutor for lands in the deck. I think I would rather have the two non basic land tutor options for grave hate than I would Enlightened Tutor for grave hate. I also have been mulling over the difference between Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and the one drop wardens. I don't think I am really convinced either way but am leaning towards the one drops due to being cheaper to cast right now.
So, I guess that hits a lot of the major things I wanted to do as of my last testing. Now I just need to find a way to get the list updated and run it through more testing.
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Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
[*]Eerie InterludeAluren I didn't realize but apparently Aluren bypasses the need to pay commander tax as well. I think its a very interesting way to sort of keep Livio in play as it forces opponents to also kill Aluren if they want to really slow me down at all. The fact that I have so many cheap ETB creatures in the deck also I think benefits me a lot more than my opponents with Aluren. Its true that it also makes it much harder for me to disrupt their commanders due to the same protection it gives me on Livio but I think its something I want to test. Its potentially a good tempo effect that also gives some level of protection to my primary plan commander. Eerie Interlude felt a little redundant to Livio and while it can protect him, being a one shot with similar mana use as my commander I wasn't really all that impressed with it as it took a lot of mana up to use Livio how I wanted him in a turn and to also have Eerie Interlude up still. I think Aluren will be a better effect for the deck but I guess we will see when I can test it.
I'm not sure where you got that from, but Aluren does not negate the commander tax at all. Just like Rooftop Storm and similar abilities, Aluren gives you an alternate casting cost of "free", which is then modified by the commander tax. So Aluren will still allow you to cast Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel with flash, but the second time it'll cost you 2, the third time 4 and so on.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
[*]Eerie InterludeAluren I didn't realize but apparently Aluren bypasses the need to pay commander tax as well. I think its a very interesting way to sort of keep Livio in play as it forces opponents to also kill Aluren if they want to really slow me down at all. The fact that I have so many cheap ETB creatures in the deck also I think benefits me a lot more than my opponents with Aluren. Its true that it also makes it much harder for me to disrupt their commanders due to the same protection it gives me on Livio but I think its something I want to test. Its potentially a good tempo effect that also gives some level of protection to my primary plan commander. Eerie Interlude felt a little redundant to Livio and while it can protect him, being a one shot with similar mana use as my commander I wasn't really all that impressed with it as it took a lot of mana up to use Livio how I wanted him in a turn and to also have Eerie Interlude up still. I think Aluren will be a better effect for the deck but I guess we will see when I can test it.
I'm not sure where you got that from, but Aluren does not negate the commander tax at all. Just like Rooftop Storm and similar abilities, Aluren gives you an alternate casting cost of "free", which is then modified by the commander tax. So Aluren will still allow you to cast Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel with flash, but the second time it'll cost you 2, the third time 4 and so on.
Well, now I can't find where I read that and everything I look up seems to back up paying the tax. Not sure if I misread or stumbled on the only ruling that was incorrect out there or something. I ordered a copy and I still think I am probably going to want to test it out even with needing to pay the commander tax so I will go forward with it anyways and see how things go.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Ok, a few more test games in the bag, I still need more draw. One of my games recently I got to like 5 lands and ran out of hand with Sun Titan in hand. I think more draw will solve some consistency issues as well as giving me more removal / ramp / pressure. The ramp I have is really good but when I don't draw any cards it can be terrible.

DECK CHANGE:
  • Lightning GreavesSkullclamp I think the greaves is probably too narrow on replaying my commander. I also need more draw and to cut something for it so I think this helps some. Skullclamp is sort of a nonbo with flickering creatures but I think if my flicker game is going strong I probably don't need to attach it much. I think my draw game has been suffering enough though that I am ready to skullclamp some 1/1 ETB guys.
  • Swords to PlowsharesElvish Visionary I think cheap cantrip creatures are probably better than I was originally giving them credit for. Things like Gaea's Cradle and Earthcraft also make these creatures strong outside of just Livio flickers. I might try to give some of the flicker effects another shot at some point as well as I think the cheap draw ETB guys actually make those fairly decent.
  • Essence WardenThragtusk I am not really sure where I am at with the Soul Warden effects. I drew Essence Warden the other night in a situation where I was draw starved and it felt REAL bad. I might come back later once my draw issues are sorted out but for now I like that Thragtusk fills a few things and still leaves me with some lifegain option. I think he also plays well to both of my commanders in that he makes tokens when flickered and those tokens look good with Kamahl. I feel like I might need to have a few less cards that are only decent if I have good draw online and I think Thragtusk has sort of a swiss army knife feel to it that I kinda dig. I think its good enough to put in for some testing at the very least.
I was contemplating cutting Enlightened Tutor as I drew that while draw starved the other day but with adding skullclamp to the mix I might keep it in for a little longer to test. My option was to give up on drawing a land for the turn to set up Sylvan Library and I wasn't exactly excited by that prospect. I also would like to possibly get back to some of the instant speed flickers maybe after I can get some more testing in.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I guess I will give one quick game report since it was fairly simple. I was playing against a Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel and Kodama of the East Tree deck and Muldrotha, the Gravetide.

T1: Land
T2: Land Livio. Muldrotha plays a sol ring this turn because they played an ETB tapped land turn one.
T3: Land, Reclamation Sage killing Sol Ring. Partners player plays an Aura Shards afterwards.
T4: Land Skyshroud Claim (ramp two forest). Partners player blows up some
T5: Ulvenwald Hydra (tutors Field of the Dead) Fetchland getting 3 zombies total. Opponent plays a Tectonic Edge and uses it on my field.
T6: Sun Titan off the top rezing Field and getting me two more zombies with a land from hand. The partners opponent hits me with an Acidic Slime on the Field again. I think he does it primarily for the blocker though as he sees the live Sun Titan. Muldrotha player has a few small creatures in play and puts up a Fog Bank for defense. Muldrotha missed a few lands and he was really banking on the Sol Ring to push him into the game.
T7: Kamahl smash. I have like 9 creatures and two of them are freaking huge. I spread the damage out to be nice. Opponents draw for turn and both scoop.

I ended up not playing Wilderness Reclamation or Aluren to the board due to the Aura Shards but even without it in play I think I likely would have had to second guess playing Aluren due to the Livio and Kodama deck's presence. I have had enough games where Widlerness Rec has payed off for me to feel that this game was an outlier but I will have to keep an eye on Aluren as I play more games. I might have to just play it out and see what it does rather than assuming it might be bad for me. Its still very much a card I don't know where I stand with. Field of the Dead was insane though for sure with Kamahl as a partner. It made up almost half of my attack power letting me swing for 25 off of tokens made from a land. This game was kind of odd as the interaction my opponents had for me I seemed to have nice rez resilience against. I got lucky in topdecking the Sun Titan but even with that it was mostly me goldfishing which is odd considering my opening hand was actually very clunky as I managed to draw into Skyshroud Claim shortly before I cast it.
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Post by gabrielv » 3 years ago

Howdy. I decided to build a Livio/Kamahl deck and ran into yours. I like your list. While I'm still brewing mine, I'll point out some differences in case they're helpful. I'll use all the mana dorks (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Avacyn's Pilgrim...). They should provide early ramp and bodies for when Kamahl comes out. I might include token makers on ETB for the same purpose (Deep Forest Hermit, Cloudgoat Ranger or Avenger of Zendikar). In the card draw package, since I'm going wide, I'll add a Shamanic Revelation. Also Guardian Project, Soul of the Harvest (both great with blinking), and Return of the Wildspeaker (always great in either both mode, in my experience).

I know that's committing too much to the board so I'm thinking of ways to recover or save my stuff from the inevitable boardwipe. I doubt that Heroic Intervention and Eerie Interlude will be enough. Avacyn would be great but it's too expensive. Still figuring that out.

Anyway, thanks for a great post and keep updating it!

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

gabrielv wrote:
3 years ago
Howdy. I decided to build a Livio/Kamahl deck and ran into yours. I like your list. While I'm still brewing mine, I'll point out some differences in case they're helpful. I'll use all the mana dorks (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Avacyn's Pilgrim...). They should provide early ramp and bodies for when Kamahl comes out. I might include token makers on ETB for the same purpose (Deep Forest Hermit, Cloudgoat Ranger or Avenger of Zendikar). In the card draw package, since I'm going wide, I'll add a Shamanic Revelation. Also Guardian Project, Soul of the Harvest (both great with blinking), and Return of the Wildspeaker (always great in either both mode, in my experience).

I know that's committing too much to the board so I'm thinking of ways to recover or save my stuff from the inevitable boardwipe. I doubt that Heroic Intervention and Eerie Interlude will be enough. Avacyn would be great but it's too expensive. Still figuring that out.

Anyway, thanks for a great post and keep updating it!
Glad to see a fellow player. With partners its rare that someone else is playing the exact pairing as someone else it seems so lots of the partners sort of got their own threads and attention it seemed.

Mana Dorks - I generally speaking see mana dorks as something to play more when playing with / against high end combo and or mass land destruction. When you expect games to be very short you generally need to ramp on one and if lands are being taken away on average it helps to diversify mana. One of the big strengths of this deck (at least to me) is how resiliant ETB creatures are to disruption via removal. I tend to on average with my decks to not run a lot of one mana dorks because of how temporary their ramp is. Sweepers set them back quickly so unless I am on a strategy that encourages very high amounts of synergy with early drops, creatures, or ramp I tend to not use them a whole lot due to how fragile they are. I have noticed some issues with the draw capabilities of my own list so far so they are fairly distant on my consideration list as of right now.

Tokens - I could. I have synergy for them in both kamahl as well as in the earthcraft / cradles. I could also likewise consider some of the landfall token producers like Rampaging Baloths / Emeria Angel. It really comes down to a question of how proactive you want to be as well as how much control you play against. I was originally building my own list more as a Livio focused one and less as a Kamahl focused one. Some of my decision making came from asking myself how to make a deck that would be good against being swept / removed. I am not saying that I live in a sea of removal or anything but rather than crank out a proactive Kamahl deck my focus was a little more on making a sticky ETB deck that was hard to run control against. I agree that you could run tokens and focus more on just ramping Kamahl out. It just wasn't how I was designing my own list to function I guess is my answer.

Draw - I have been avoiding the wide draw = creatures because a lot of them are a bit clunky and as I was saying I am not really a focused token deck myself. I did a bit overlook Guardian Project as I thought that one was an on cast trigger rather than entering so I should probably give that a shot especially with the lower cost to cast it. I did consider Soul of the Harvest but I have a strong dislike for big expensive cards that don't do anything immediately and casting / flickering back after casting a six drop sounds dreadful. Guardian Project does seem like something I should probably get behind though.

Recovery Plan - So far given that my own list is more built on ETB value I haven't really had much of an issue with recovery. If you can manage it I would strongly suggest running Field of the Dead and means to tutor it but its an expensive package to add for sure. I can't even tell you how much that card has done for me in a deck like this though. I think I sort of designed in a way that is more for value though and less for pushing Kamahl though. I really just cast Kamahl when nobody does enough to stop me rather than it being my primary plan.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will see if I can work Guardian Project into the list. As much as I want to make Soul of the Harvest work, I will probably end up skipping it due to it costing so much and needing follow up.
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Post by gabrielv » 3 years ago

Howdy. I've playtested my deck this weekend (my list https://archidekt.com/decks/1072435#Liv ... n_the_Park). I play on Spelltable so it's not really a proper meta but random opponents, some with busted decks.

I didn't win any game but in a couple of occasions I was just a turn away from swinging lethal. The problem I ran into was having to wait a whole turn cycle to be able to swing. Since Concordant Crossroads is out of my budget, I'll use Vivien, Champion of the Wilds as a way to cast creature at flash speed, and also Chord of Calling. Crashing Drawbridge for haste, although it's slow. I'm looking for ways to make the deck more explosive.

I agree about the mana dorks. I was boardwiped several times. I might still use some since they allow me to set up early but I might lower their number. But maybe I should focus more in the ETB value...

As I've played the deck, my pattern is to cast early draw and ramp ETB creatures, then bring out Livio and flicker for value. Latter on, I use Kamahl for pumping tokens or big creatures (at this point, the board has been wiped and Livio has probably died 2 or 3 times). In this sense, ETB creatures that make lots of tokens at once help, Avenger of Zendikar being an all-star, of course. I wish I could afford Field of the Death, it's such a powerful card (maybe too much, in my opinion, but that's another topic).

Notable cards not on your list: Guardian Project has always been great, it has brought me back to the game after a boardwipe more than once (specially with Conjurer's Closet). Also Blessed Sanctuary did well, and its first ability proved relevant at least once. Kogla, the Titan Ape is solid removal on ETB and can return any of my commanders to hand. Finally, I haven't had the chance to test Dual Nature. While risky because it's symmetrical, it can theoretically get you endless value (with Fiend Hunter, it exiles the board, or combined with other ETB creatures can draw your deck or get all the lands). I realize that doesn't win the game, but I don't want to play cards like Altar of the Brood that are useful only in the combo situation. I don't love infinite combos, but I like to have the option when playing against cascade decks or similar. It seems like the only way to outvalue them.

I'll keep on tuning this deck. Even if it doesn't win too much, so far it's been fun to play, as it feels like I'm always doing something relevant. Cheers!

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

gabrielv wrote:
3 years ago
Howdy. I've playtested my deck this weekend (my list https://archidekt.com/decks/1072435#Liv ... n_the_Park). I play on Spelltable so it's not really a proper meta but random opponents, some with busted decks.
There were a few things that stood out to me in your list. I don't really know what is in your list due to budget vs what you are intentionally running so sorry in advance.

Single Flicker - So, my issue with single target flickers is that generally speaking the incentive to run them tends to be more in mass flickers like Ghostway, Eerie Interlude, and Lumbering Battlement. One of the big reasons I avoided running much of the single target flickers is that they are reliant on having other good creatures to flicker to be good. Paying 3+ mana to single target flicker an Elvish Visionary for instance is sort of questionable for instance especially given that you could use Livio to help facilitate that. I think that the Flickerwisp / Felidar Guardian / Restoration Angel are generally things I would try to move away from is what I am saying as their bodies aren't great, they are reliant on having something good to flicker, and the payoff when they work isn't that great in this list. Replacing them with more creatures with ETB effects will probably pay off better.

Earthshaker Giant / Thunderfoot Baloth - I guess I question if its worth running these when what these accomplish is covered by Kamahl. They are expensive to cast and for the most part just redundancy for Kamahl. Kamahl might be expensive to cast, but having him as your commander gives him a good level of consistency. I also believe in keeping a curve appropriate and to me it feels like this is two six drops that could be replaced with more cheap etb creatures like say Elvish Rejuvenator.

Crashing Drawbridge - I think, its probably better to not resort to this personally. I think its worth focusing more on rebuilding quickly and or being sticky to the board rather than it is relying on a bad card to try to give haste. Personally I also think that Lightning Greaves is a bit of a miss for me in this list as well from the standpoint that the point of it would be to put it on Livio. My issue with this is that if Livio dies, you need to recast him, then there is the question of having at least 3-5 mana left to activate him and really, I just think its easier to play him first if he dies and see if he dies again. He is cheap enough that and we are a ramp deck so its kind of hard to repeatedly play whack a mole with him anyways. My other thought is that if someone wants to burn all their removal on Livio then its far more likely that Kamahl will be clear when he comes in so I personally took the stance that being sticky and just spamming the board repeatedly rather than trying to protect.

Day of Judgement / Wrath of God - these are workable, they just don't have any versatility. I just think that Tragic Arrogance, Rout, Austere Command, and Cleansing Nova all offer a lot more versatility to them and the cost increase of 1-2 mana seems acceptable to me. Generally speaking I am of the belief that if you need a four mana wrath, its because you are playing against extremely fast decks, MLD, or combo. I don't think these type of commanders really are the type to play against those strategies though.

Unbreakable Formation - I feel like this should probably be Ghostway. You could possibly also go for Teferi's Protection or Flawless Maneuver given that you are sort of token based.

Overall, I think you could possibly use a little more interaction to your list. Right now it feels too much like you are racing to see who can kill whom first. I say this from the standpoint that Kamahl + bodies isn't a super fast strategy in a lot of cases. I think some of your protection cards are also not on synergy with what this deck does. Don't get me wrong, I think Heroic Intervention is a strong card, I just think that something like Reveillark has a lot more synergy with the list. I also have a lot of issue with how many things get past Heroic Intervention these days (Toxic Deluge, Living Death, Cyclonic Rift, Tragic Arrogance) just to name a few.
gabrielv wrote:
3 years ago
I didn't win any game but in a couple of occasions I was just a turn away from swinging lethal. The problem I ran into was having to wait a whole turn cycle to be able to swing. Since Concordant Crossroads is out of my budget, I'll use Vivien, Champion of the Wilds as a way to cast creature at flash speed, and also Chord of Calling. Crashing Drawbridge for haste, although it's slow. I'm looking for ways to make the deck more explosive.

I agree about the mana dorks. I was boardwiped several times. I might still use some since they allow me to set up early but I might lower their number. But maybe I should focus more in the ETB value...

As I've played the deck, my pattern is to cast early draw and ramp ETB creatures, then bring out Livio and flicker for value. Latter on, I use Kamahl for pumping tokens or big creatures (at this point, the board has been wiped and Livio has probably died 2 or 3 times). In this sense, ETB creatures that make lots of tokens at once help, Avenger of Zendikar being an all-star, of course. I wish I could afford Field of the Death, it's such a powerful card (maybe too much, in my opinion, but that's another topic).

Notable cards not on your list: Guardian Project has always been great, it has brought me back to the game after a boardwipe more than once (specially with Conjurer's Closet). Also Blessed Sanctuary did well, and its first ability proved relevant at least once. Kogla, the Titan Ape is solid removal on ETB and can return any of my commanders to hand. Finally, I haven't had the chance to test Dual Nature. While risky because it's symmetrical, it can theoretically get you endless value (with Fiend Hunter, it exiles the board, or combined with other ETB creatures can draw your deck or get all the lands). I realize that doesn't win the game, but I don't want to play cards like Altar of the Brood that are useful only in the combo situation. I don't love infinite combos, but I like to have the option when playing against cascade decks or similar. It seems like the only way to outvalue them.

I'll keep on tuning this deck. Even if it doesn't win too much, so far it's been fun to play, as it feels like I'm always doing something relevant. Cheers!
I don't really think that adding haste is the way to go personally. I think its a bit of a trap that assumes your opponents don't have specific types of disruption and or that they have other specific types. Its good vs wraths but only if you can go out and kill one or more players due to it. Beyond that, there are a lot of cases you will draw these effects and they won't be overly useful. Personally I think its far better to move in a way to add disruption to our plan and make yourself harder to disrupt from removal. I also don't like leaning heavily on flash as a means of playing just because honestly, I don't love a lot of the flash options we have. I run Winding Canyons myself but I think a lot of the other options use up a card on something that is easy to disrupt and not very good against a lot of strategies.

Guardian Project - I will try to work a copy into my list. I have also been looking at a few cards from this upcoming set so I figured I would figure out some new cards in addition to this.

Blessed Sanctuary - I see the potential of this card and you could Livio exile a bunch of creatures, play this, and then return them. The problem with that is that I keep seeing the setup required for this card and it seems to be Livio + creatures + 8+ mana.

Kogla, the Titan Ape - I guess my concern with it is that there are so many things that it dies to or can't kill. Beyond that you could run Duplicant or Luminate Primordial for a superior creature removal effect that doesn't have as many restrictions (size and or indestructability). I guess its nice that it can also attack and disenchant but I find its ETB to be weaker to a lot of other options out there. Its interesting that it can bounce Livio out but I don't know that that really sells me on it.

Cascade - Try Archon of Emeria / Rule of Law effects. These effects can be very good against draw and or cast heavy archetypes. I also think that in a lot of cases disrupting opponents commanders can really screw with several of these strategies. I think your current build is a little light on disruption. Mangara of Corondor, Skyclave Apparition, and Cavalier of Dawn could all be useful in increasing your disruption options. Weathered Runestone and Grafdigger's Cage also shut down cascade but tend to be a bit more specific of hate cards.

DECK CHANGES:
  • AlurenGuardian Project I think that Aluren is interesting..... but I also think that its a weird tempo effect that can backfire on me. I wanted to give it a shot but the only time I have seen it, it was too much of a liability and it stayed in my hand.
  • Lumbering BattlementGlorious Protector - it costs less, has flash, and gets me further from having some infinite Karmic Guide loop which is a positive to me. Karmic Guide is my only angel in deck so I think this is a good swap for me.
  • 1 Snow-Covered PlainsArctic Treeline - More ETB tapped lands don't excite me but its a dual land so that helps on the Emeria, the Sky Ruin front. I might as well throw it in and see how things go.
I briefly thought about Toski, Bearer of Secrets in this deck and it actually got me thinking about maybe running Ohran Frostfang in here. The addition of deathtouch to my creatures, drawing cards, and or flickering out creatures I don't like how they get blocked is all an option here. It might be something I explore at some point.
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TheMrBigShot96
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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 2 years ago

Have you ate this deck anymore recently? I really like the idea behind it.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
2 years ago
Have you ate this deck anymore recently? I really like the idea behind it.
It works really well, I just didn't find it to be that interesting of a concept after a bunch of games with it. It very consistently ran people over but its my usual issue with ramp decks / overrun decks. Its a very consistent deck but it didn't have a lot of cool and unique cards in my mind when playing a bunch of ETB value cards. It works, it works really good. I just got to the point that I was bored with it a bit faster given the ETB focus. Its a shame as I liked the commanders and the GW spin to it. I just got bored of it after playing with it for a few months.

I do tend to get a bit bored of ramp, ETB, and overrun tactics though. I liked the flash concept of all of it with Livio's flicker stuff but ultimately it wasn't a lot of things that I tend to find myself drawn to playing.

EDIT: I suppose its worth mentioning that on occasion I did have some issues still with card draw. Lots of what I did gave me card advantage and removal but on occasion I would have a hard time bringing in more resources. One of the last games I played with this deck I got a weird wrong half problem where I somehow didn't really find creatures or draw and I found like all of the things to enable creatures without the creatures which was super weird but I chalked up as a shuffling thing after laying out and working on the deck. The card draw of this deck was a bit so so but for the most part it didn't need to draw a ton of cards as Livio gave me card advantage without the need for draw throughput.
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