Sefris of the Kind of Obvious Ways

[Chromaticus]

That's an interesting find for sure.. 4 mana triple Raise Dead is probably a common case, but every mode has play here.

And draw 3 discard 1 at instant speed isn't bad, especially when you're guaranteeing gas.

[PrimevalCommander]

I want to try out a little more connive in my deck. Being on the casual side makes combat important for my game plan, and getting value off my draw+discard with +1/+1 counters, while seemingly insignificant, will go a long way to giving me some relevant blockers along with making my dragons, demons, and sphinxes winning threats. I typically pump Sefris or Rilsa with +1/+1 counters from Phandelver and Undercity just to make them better blockers on the ground and not battlefield decoration.

I will be putting in both Obscura Confluence and Lethal Scheme with Change of Plans already in. Raffine, Scheming Seer may also get a spot sometime soon as well.

[yeti1069]

Played budget Sefris twice this weekend. Rilsa Rael, Kingpin still my favorite card. Always pumps something fun and gets damage through. Tutored up Teferi, Master of Time and was looting like a madman. Ran out of creatures real quick since I was trying to power through Undercity. I will probably be replacing Contact Other Plane with a Death Denied or other spell to buyback creatures to hand. I need more creatures to pitch to keep Sefris triggering. It can also rebuy my evoke and cycling creatures if I don't have a looter online. Obscura Confluence actually looks really good for this. 4 mana for 3 creatures is a better rate than Death Denied and more flexibility. It can also Connive and trigger Sefris then immediately return the discarded card to my hand, which basically becomes a bad card draw spell with fringe synergy with my commander. Thoughts?

I think Confluence looks underwhelming for all modes, but not so much so that it's not worth trying out.

Connive is pretty good here, but doing so for more than 1 at a time/turn doesn't specifically serve us that well. I really feel like the ideal play for Sefris is discarding/sacrificing/milling 1 creature per turn. More than that doesn't do anything for Sefris, opens us up to more of a blowout from grave hate, and then also makes it more challenging to have creatures in hand to keep looting across multiple turns.

That said, Lethal Scheme is a great card, and the other connive cards loo pretty decent.

I was actually thinking about bringing creatures back to hand after my last game as well, since I found myself with 1 or no creatures in hand a few times while looting with Teferi. There are a few routes I was considering:
*Oversold Cemetery is likely going to come online fairly quickly, is cheap (mana-wise), and will trigger turn after turn. Here, it almost reads as a Draw 1 on upkeep. The downside is it may not be online early enough with a slow start, and may get turned off later, either due to some graveyard exile or reanimating targets out of yard. Viconia, Drow Apostate is a creature version of this.
*Some big Raise Dead effect like Death Denied to bring back a handful (literally) of creatures to keep me stocked. The upside of these effects is that they are immediate, and have a larger scale than something like OC. The downside is needing to spend mana to get the creature(s) to hand, which may make further plays that turn difficult.
*Self-returning creature(s) like Master of Death. Had this in before, and I liked it, but dropped it for something that felt more valuable. Still, 3 mana to surveil (and usually trigger Sefris), then recur on upkeep, or discard and recur on upkeep is decent. Undead Gladiator is another option.
*Creatures that can return other creatures repeatably. Veinwitch Coven can do this once per trip through Lost Mine for at a low CMC, and may be able to do so more often as well with other life gain. Treasury Thrull can return a creature each turn, though 6 mana for a 4/4 is pretty bad.

[PrimevalCommander]

*Oversold Cemetery is likely going to come online fairly quickly, is cheap (mana-wise), and will trigger turn after turn. Here, it almost reads as a Draw 1 on upkeep. The downside is it may not be online early enough with a slow start, and may get turned off later, either due to some graveyard exile or reanimating targets out of yard. Viconia, Drow Apostate is a creature version of this.

*Self-returning creature(s) like Master of Death. Had this in before, and I liked it, but dropped it for something that felt more valuable. Still, 3 mana to surveil (and usually trigger Sefris), then recur on upkeep, or discard and recur on upkeep is decent. Undead Gladiator is another option.

*Creatures that can return other creatures repeatably. Veinwitch Coven can do this once per trip through Lost Mine for at a low CMC, and may be able to do so more often as well with other life gain. Treasury Thrull can return a creature each turn, though 6 mana for a 4/4 is pretty bad.

I don't think 4 mana instant "draw" 3 is all that bad. Add the other modes and it does a few things that I wouldn't mind having. Pseudo removal if someone attacks me with a big dude. I do still cast creatures for value so it is not only for discard fodder, otherwise probably a bad card. For Death Denied to hit more creatures I have to put into it, which is quite a bit. I am sure it will be a more interesting card than Contact Other Plane, which only exists to roll that D20 that I have no payoff for .

I saw Master of Death mentioned a couple different places. At first it looked awful to me because sac outlets were talked about more often than looting, and I wouldn't want to cast this creature for 3 just to get it in the GY. But in the context of looting, it looks like a GREAT option basically returning to hand for negligible cost only to be immediately discarded for value. That way I never have to pay the 3 mana and it becomes a Phyrexian Arena for that can't be destroyed. Of course I need discard outlets, but I have a laundry list of ways to do that, and it interacts beautifully with connive. Windmill slam into the deck now!

Oversold Cemetery I wanted in the deck before the reprint, but was out of budget. With the reprint, I need to dig up my copy and slot it in. Also a good card here, I may not have it online turn 3, but turn 5 and onward should be out of the question unless I get a slow hand. I'd probably need 2-3 turn cycles to get enough creatures in the graveyard to trigger it if cast on turn 2. Sounds slow, but only if it is in opening hand. We will see if I have a good spot for it. Being dead turns 2-4 is a turn off though.

Veinwitch Coven doesn't look so bad since, as you mentioned, Dungeons can gain life. Otherwise I have very little life gain, which would make this difficult to trigger. Only thing is that it takes 4 venture triggers to gain the life, which is prpbably less reliable overall than Viconia, Drow Apostate getting us a creature every upkeep once it is turned on.

[yeti1069]

It's not a 4 mana draw 3, it's a 4 mana loot 3, which compares unfavorably with all the 3 mana draw 3 and discard 2 unless you discard X cards, like Thirst for Discovery. Conniving has some other benefits, such as possibly pumping one or more creatures 1-3 times, but I don't know that I'd want to spend 4 mana for that effect, and not sure I'd value it enough to slot in over a creature or actual removal.

That said, one tricksy play pattern with it would be to connive 1 or 2 times, then return the creature you discarded to your hand (it targets a player, but not the creature in graveyard).

[PrimevalCommander]

I just meant using the raise dead mode 3 times to go up 3 cards. Generally I see myself picking the raise dead 3 times, or the connive 1x and creature return 2x to go up 2 cards and filter 1 card to trigger Sefris. I'll report back on my findings, but it may be some weeks before I get more games in.

[Petar_Enev]

Jirina, Dauntless General is a great addition I think.
Especially with my strategy of maximising out sacrifice effects that protect Seffris.
Other notable humans I play:

• Cathar Commando
• Rona, Herald of Invasion
Thought Courier
• Loran of the Third Path
Midnight Pathlighter
Ertai Resurrected
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
Agent of Treachery

[yeti1069]

Jirina looks decent. I think it competes somewhat unfavorably with some similar cards like Selfless Spirit and Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate. It's better protection for Sefris, specifically than either of them, but both can protect the whole board. I think if I found Sefris getting targeted more often, I'd look at adding a few more of these effects. I think my problem with a high density of them is that I just don't really want to be sacrificing simply for Sefris triggers unless I'm desperate or have multiples available. The exile graveyard on ETB is good, though...might push it over Selfless (which I don't think I'm running at the moment--my copies are in other decks, and I haven't proxied it).

[yeti1069]

I'm considering trying out some new tech:

Invasion of Fiora - can spare Sefris, but also other commanders and potentially dangerous creatures, so...not necessarily great, but can be flipped rather easily for possibly more card draw and a decent blocker/attacker. More likely to run this in Marchesa the Black Rose, but it's a consideration.
Archpriest of Shadows - reanimate on a creature that can give the ability to another, evasive creature.
Guardian Scalelord - kind of the same, but can get back non-creatures, and doesn't need to deal damage. If Backup goes on one of my bigger creatures can get back some juicy stuff, although the 7 and 8 CMC bombs are probably out of reach. Basically, it has a slightly higher ceiling than Sun Titan, and a slightly lower floor (can't get back lands).

[Chromaticus]

Curious if you intentionally are avoiding infinite ventures @yeti1069?

Cards like Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward with the Animate Dead / Necromancy / Dance of the Dead package.

[yeti1069]

Curious if you intentionally are avoiding infinite ventures @yeti1069?

Cards like Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward with the Animate Dead / Necromancy / Dance of the Dead package.

I am, yeah. I'm leaning away from infinites in most of my decks in general, though including multi-card combos where each individual card is a strong fit for the deck (ie., Viscera Seer, Reveillark, Karmic Guide here), and I'm not tutoring much/at all is ok by me.

On the one hand, the deck could probably be a little more combo-focused, if only to close things out faster once I'm ahead by enough, but on the other, I don't like truncating a game suddenly by assembling an infinite. As it stands, if Sefris doesn't get targeted early and often, the deck tends to run away with the game anyway.

[PrimevalCommander]

I am excited to try out some new additions to my budget deck. The looter package is looking nice with the new legendary looters. Hopefully will get some games in a few weeks. I updated my decklist on page 3 to reflect these.

Adds
Obscura Confluence as discussed above for re-buying creatures and triggering Sefris
Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator looter upgrade
Rona, Herald of Invasion // Rona, Tolarian Obliterator looter upgrade
Jirina, Dauntless General grave hate and Sefris protection as noted above. Should be a solid utility slot.
Master of Death free card advantage with the looters
Tomb of Horrors Adventurer I'm trying out to see if it provides good returns.
Tivit, Seller of Secrets will give me mana and draw, which I needed. And is a good beater
Relic of Legends is a good mana rock for the random legends in the deck, and gives Sefris something to do.

I need to get a Time Wipe as it can reset Sefris and wipe the board. Saw it in the OP and I like it for under $0.50

[yeti1069]

I am excited to try out some new additions to my budget deck. The looter package is looking nice with the new legendary looters. Hopefully will get some games in a few weeks. I updated my decklist on page 3 to reflect these.

Adds
Obscura Confluence as discussed above for re-buying creatures and triggering Sefris
Vohar, Vodalian Desecrator looter upgrade
Rona, Herald of Invasion // Rona, Tolarian Obliterator looter upgrade
Jirina, Dauntless General grave hate and Sefris protection as noted above. Should be a solid utility slot.
Master of Death free card advantage with the looters
Tomb of Horrors Adventurer I'm trying out to see if it provides good returns.
Tivit, Seller of Secrets will give me mana and draw, which I needed. And is a good beater
Relic of Legends is a good mana rock for the random legends in the deck, and gives Sefris something to do.

I need to get a Time Wipe as it can reset Sefris and wipe the board. Saw it in the OP and I like it for under $0.50

Vohar and Rona are great upgrades.

Jirina looks good for the added grave hate. I've been running Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate, which has been very solid for protecting the board. I think I like it a little more than Jirina for being able to protect everything. That helps cut down on game time--I found that I was having these very long games because people would wipe the board, and I'd take it and rebuild a few times per game. The deck is great at grinding in those situations, but it's not enjoyable for anyone else. Saving the board helps end things faster.

Master of Death I had liked and took out just for other flashier pieces. It's a reasonable utility item.

Tomb of Horrors Adventurer I had looked at, but felt like I am rarely casting 2 spells, and even rarer do I really care about copying either of them enough to run a 6 drop to do it. Please report on your experiences if different. I suppose if you're also running Tivit you may find yourself with more mana to work with on occasion. I find that the deck generally runs pretty well on 5 or 6 mana most of the time. It can make use of more (holding up interaction, being able to afford more mana-costed activated abilities/cycle), but I've taken out mana rocks and kept my land count fairly low, and other than some rough mulligans on occasion, haven't missed the mana.

On that note, I felt like Tivit did a lot that I didn't really need--it's rare that I have 2 mana left over to crack a clue, although if you're making 2 treasures at the same time, you'll have the mana to do it. That said, I've been debating whether I should drop the power level of the deck a bit, as it can be fairly oppressive at times, and removing creatures that provide interaction on solid bodies was one spot I was considering. In that case, something like Tivit would probably be better as a sticky threat with some bonuses that don't directly impact the board.

Relic isn't a bad idea here. Casting it the turn after Sefris will refund you 2/3rds of the cost.

Time Wipe has been good. I've been playing around with other versions of wipes that don't hurt Sefris. I believe I swapped out TW, but can't recall what for at the moment, it hasn't gone into an update to the list yet. Tragic Arrogance is much better usually, and also cheap, monetarily.

[PrimevalCommander]

Jirina looks good for the added grave hate. I've been running Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate, which has been very solid for protecting the board. I think I like it a little more than Jirina for being able to protect everything. That helps cut down on game time--I found that I was having these very long games because people would wipe the board, and I'd take it and rebuild a few times per game. The deck is great at grinding in those situations, but it's not enjoyable for anyone else. Saving the board helps end things faster.

You are probably right. I just liked the multiple boxes that Jirina checks for this deck. I'm short on grave hate, so I really liked both abilities equally. And being legendary helps Relic of Legends. We will see how she performs.

Tomb of Horrors Adventurer I had looked at, but felt like I am rarely casting 2 spells, and even rarer do I really care about copying either of them enough to run a 6 drop to do it. Please report on your experiences if different. I suppose if you're also running Tivit you may find yourself with more mana to work with on occasion. I find that the deck generally runs pretty well on 5 or 6 mana most of the time. It can make use of more (holding up interaction, being able to afford more mana-costed activated abilities/cycle), but I've taken out mana rocks and kept my land count fairly low, and other than some rough mulligans on occasion, haven't missed the mana.

Saw this on a Nitpicking Nerds video and thought I would give it a try. I could probably double spell pretty often if I had enough incentive, and double copies might get there. It is a high mana cost for a 3/3, but I wanted to at least try it. It also completes the initiative creature cycle since I also have Ravenloft Adventurer (meh) and White Plume Adventurer (great). I hardly ever actually cast anything over 4mv so the payoff may be marginal. I won't feel bad if this doesn't pan out. Seasoned Dungeoneer I have heard great things. That would be my next choice.

Bolded: My budget version definitely needs more than 6 mana to pop off. My card choices are much less efficient than yours, by design.

In that case, something like Tivit would probably be better as a sticky threat with some bonuses that don't directly impact the board.

Exactly! I have several "utility beaters" but probably more that are strictly combat beef. At my target power level I don't want every opponent to dread every time Sefris completes a dungeon. That will only draw MORE removal from the table and make my day difficult. Having some vanilla beef to get back advances my board without provoking the entire table. This becomes evident when looking at my 7 and 8 drops Another reason I am keeping Hoverguard Sweepers (an admittedly weak choice) instead of something like Ashen Rider or Luminate Primordial. The Sweepers have actually done pretty well for me, gaining great tempo without completely raining on everyone's parade... maybe a drizzle.

Tragic Arrogance is good too. I might play both. I have Arrogance in another deck, so Time Wipe just give me a little diversity, which I don't prioritize, but this deck being sub-optimal gives me that flexibility.

[yeti1069]

Seasoned Dungeoneer does everything the deck wants to do:
ETB venture
4-mana initiative (play Sefris, drop this next turn before you get into a dungeon)
Quasi-loots with the explore ability to trigger Sefris
Gives you an unblockable creature (almost always Sefris for me--see below) to get back the Initiative
Explore can grow your creature, which can help Sefris avoid some removal/turn into a better blocker

[Petar_Enev]

I was recently thinking for the following synergy:

White Plume Adventurer + Shorikai, Genesis Engine

At the beginning of each turn, if you have 8 power of creatures, you can tap them in response of Adventurer'a ability and animate Shorikai.
Then you can use Shorikau to draw and finally untap all of your creatures including Shorikai for another draw. (if you completed dungeon),
This will also probably trigger Sefris each turn.

Other cards that are very useful with Adventurer:
Relic of Legends - all your creatures have tap ability now.
All the looters
Loran of the Third Path

[PrimevalCommander]

Making me want to try out Shorikai now. It is pretty much a super-looter that is hard to kill.
Also really like the Relic of Legends + White Plume interaction. Didn't think about that one since I have not seen Relic in action yet.

[yeti1069]

Shorikai looks pretty good. Personally, I'm not thrilled with spending 5 mana for the first loot, but for sure after that it's got to be amazing. I've generally tried to have my looters come in before Sefris (2 mana) so they can activate right after I play Sefris, or 4 mana with a free activation so I can cast it right after Sefris and get a trigger (Teferi).

Relic looks ok. Depends how many legends you're running. If all you have out is Sefris, I don't think it's worth a 3-mana rock. My list has about 9 legendaries, 2 of which are looters, so they don't work with Relic really.

[PrimevalCommander]

@yeti1069 looking at your list in the OP, I didn't realize when I first looked that your deck would be right in the same budget as mine by removing Solitude and Archon of Cruelty. Just an interesting observation since I saw the card quality and expected a higher total budget. I think the comparison in our strategy, me being heavy on tap looters, is much more relevant since we are in a similar budget space. Not that budget is everything, but it does add context to the discussion.

I'm not sure how old the decklist is in the first post, but I think the land base could use some love. Pain lands are cheap now and always enter untapped. Check lands are relatively cheap and play well with basics and some of the budget duals like Prairie Stream, Sunken Hollow, Irrigated Farmland, and Fetid Pools. Port Town and friends are not very exciting to me. I'm still playing Glacial Floodplain Ice Tunnel and Snowfield Sinkhole and desperately want to replace them with something untapped, but Filter lands and Slow lands are over budget outside Fetid Heath

[yeti1069]

@yeti1069 looking at your list in the OP, I didn't realize when I first looked that your deck would be right in the same budget as mine by removing Solitude and Archon of Cruelty. Just an interesting observation since I saw the card quality and expected a higher total budget. I think the comparison in our strategy, me being heavy on tap looters, is much more relevant since we are in a similar budget space. Not that budget is everything, but it does add context to the discussion.

I'm not sure how old the decklist is in the first post, but I think the land base could use some love. Pain lands are cheap now and always enter untapped. Check lands are relatively cheap and play well with basics and some of the budget duals like Prairie Stream, Sunken Hollow, Irrigated Farmland, and Fetid Pools. Port Town and friends are not very exciting to me. I'm still playing Glacial Floodplain Ice Tunnel and Snowfield Sinkhole and desperately want to replace them with something untapped, but Filter lands and Slow lands are over budget outside Fetid Heath

I hadn't updated the list here in quite a while. I've copied over the most recent list from Moxfield, although I know I've made a few changes that haven't migrated their yet, either. For instance, I know that I've added Rona, Herald of Invasion // Rona, Tolarian Obliterator, but don't know what I cut for it.

Lands got upgraded a bit, although they could still stand to see some improvement, as you've noted.

I've gone a little lighter on tap looters than I had been, and kind of want to dial them back up a bit, especially with White Plume Adventurer in here (another add that hasn't been logged).

[PrimevalCommander]

Ah yes, card quality (and price) has increased significantly with this latest update. This is more in line with my expectations reading the last couple pages of discussion.

I think Mater of Death gets better with more looters. Since you don't have to pay 3 mana to cast the creature, then sacrifice it to get a Sefris trigger. Just draw, discard, venture, repeat. Also redundant looters just cycle through using the active one, which means it is hard to draw too many looters. Except for the additional deck space they occupy. I'm playing too many, but I'm also playing too many top end fatties that I have no desire to actually cast. So I don't want to be stuck with 8 drops in my hand.

[PrimevalCommander]

Got to see Jirina, Dauntless General in action and I was pleasantly surprised. Playing against 2 graveyard decks, the ETB exile gy clause was helpful. None of my big creatures are Humans but many of my utility dudes are Human. Was able to pop Jirina in response to my own board wipe and loose no creatures. Kept Sefris of the Hidden Ways, Rona, Herald of Invasion // Rona, Tolarian Obliterator, and Midnight Pathlighter alive so I could keep on venturing. Couldn't find any fatties for a turn, so my next Sefris reanimate trigger returned Jirina for more protection. Overall a solid include for a 2 drop that pulls double duty as grave hate and commander protection. Allows me to look for extra fringe-synergy with other Humans that might be useful. Thought Courier coming back in for Merfolk Looter for this reason.

[PrimevalCommander]

I have been really liking the Initiative creatures in this deck more and more every time I see them. Putting the Initiative in play gives me an easy way to trigger dungeons outside of Sefris triggers and allows me to power through faster. Being an ETB effect lends to the reanimation, and potentially some blink engines to get extra triggers. The hardest part is timing the triggers to get me into the Undercity instead of delving further into Lost Mine. Not a deal breaker since I can use a Sefris zombify trigger to pull an initiative creature from the GY and jump right into the Undercity that way.

I just like having useful creatures that help me venture into dungeons without using Sefris' trigger for the turn. My casual list has a LOT of evasive bodies, so it is easy for me to get combat damage in if I loose the initiative. Undercity rooms are so much better, and so is the payoff. I mean, Ravenloft Adventurer isn't stellar, but the initiative trigger with some incidental grave hate has worked wonders for me. I haven't seen Tomb of Horrors Adventurer yet, but I already have Seasoned Dungeoneer on the buy list.

I saw a Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker deck online that just played all the draft chaff ETB initiative creatures and all the mass-blink abilities they could find, coupled with some Panharmonicon nonsense to complete the Undercity multiple times in a turn, with double room triggers to boot. Made me wonder if I need a Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward for my deck.

[yeti1069]

I have been really liking the Initiative creatures in this deck more and more every time I see them. Putting the Initiative in play gives me an easy way to trigger dungeons outside of Sefris triggers and allows me to power through faster. Being an ETB effect lends to the reanimation, and potentially some blink engines to get extra triggers. The hardest part is timing the triggers to get me into the Undercity instead of delving further into Lost Mine. Not a deal breaker since I can use a Sefris zombify trigger to pull an initiative creature from the GY and jump right into the Undercity that way.

I just like having useful creatures that help me venture into dungeons without using Sefris' trigger for the turn. My casual list has a LOT of evasive bodies, so it is easy for me to get combat damage in if I loose the initiative. Undercity rooms are so much better, and so is the payoff. I mean, Ravenloft Adventurer isn't stellar, but the initiative trigger with some incidental grave hate has worked wonders for me. I haven't seen Tomb of Horrors Adventurer yet, but I already have Seasoned Dungeoneer on the buy list.

I saw a Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker deck online that just played all the draft chaff ETB initiative creatures and all the mass-blink abilities they could find, coupled with some Panharmonicon nonsense to complete the Undercity multiple times in a turn, with double room triggers to boot. Made me wonder if I need a Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward for my deck.

The Undercity/Initiative is very strong for sure. I've liked Seasoned Dungeoneer and White Plume Adventurer in my deck. Ravenloft looks ok, Tomb of Horrors always seemed like it was asking for too much. I don't find myself casting more than one spell a turn until pretty late in the game, and at that point I don't know how much I care about doubling up on my casts. Especially since they're mostly enabling pieces. I'm rarely casting impactful stuff.

[PrimevalCommander]

I will hold judgement until I see it in action at least once. You are correct that I almost never cast a big creature spell when I can loot a couple times and get it into play for free. Even if I had the mana, I'm usually dumping it for dungeon triggers and casting smaller utility pieces. But I do use mana regularly, and having 3 of anything can be pretty good if I drop a mana rock and have a followup play. I would totally Tortured Existence back a Radiant Solar if I could have 3 of them! Some of my favorite cards are legendary though