When to use Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare? (if ever)

[RowanKeltizar]

Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare. In your opinion when are these cards worth using? As in, is there any chance of breaking parity on them without stax effects or combo? Also included here are Dictate of Karametra and Overabundance.

Anyone have luck with Vernal Bloom? Lots of green players in my playgroup though.

I have a Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck and I'm wondering if it might be worth it for the aggro game. The deck is a bit too slow in my meta despite having around 12 land ramp cards. The earlier I can get a mana doubler into play and stick it the better chances I have since I can very quickly field lethal damage.

Should I consider Mana Reflection before these other symetrical ones?

I'm also wondering about Burgeoning and Exploration being effective. Should I increase my land count (37) and add more non-creature based card draw like Sylvan Library to fuel these two engines? $$$

Btw, i wonder if running the bounce lands, ala Gruul Turf would actually be worthwhile with the above 2 cards.

[Mookie]

Disclaimer: I don't play with Heartbeat of Spring or most other symmetric mana doublers. I do play with Keeper of Progenitus... and there are definitely some times I hold it in hand because another deck will benefit from it more than my own.

Symmetric mana doublers have a tendency to accelerate the game in ways no other effect can. Depending on the current board state, it's definitely plausible for them to cause the game to end within a turn cycle or two. As a result, they're pretty risky to play.

In a vacuum, I would say that symmetric mana doublers are best in one of two situations: either you're comboing out immediately (ex: with Palinchron), in which case there isn't really a downside. The more interesting situation is when you can make better use of them than your opponents. The issue is that with three opponents, that is fairly difficult to guarantee. If you have more lands then the rest of the table put together, you're probably in a good spot. If one of your opponents has been going heavy on ramp, then not so much.

Another question is what you'll be spending the mana on. Funneling it into a big X spell like Torment of Hailfire or Genesis Wave? Perfect. Casting a fatty ahead of curve and hoping it will win the game? Not so much. Dumping it into a mana sink? Harder to evaluate. I could maybe see running symmetric mana doublers if you have a commander that can turn mana into value, such as Kenrith, the Returned King or Thrasios, Triton Hero, but at that point you have the question of whether it's efficient from a tempo perspective - just because you have a use for your mana doesn't mean your opponents won't have a better use.

For your deck in particular... I don't think Gishath, Sun's Avatar particularly benefits from mana doublers - if your plan is to play out Gishath ASAP, I would just run more normal ramp, or at least higher-impact ramp - you want some Explosive Vegetation effects in addition to any Rampant Growths if you want to cast an 8-drop. Vernal Bloom is probably a better bet, assuming you can support it. (I'll also call out Keeper of Progenitus) Hmmm....

[RowanKeltizar]

That sounds about right. I do run a ton of the land fetch ramp spells. But currently that doesn't feel like enough. Thinking now about the Exploration Burgeoning package simply because I have limited options for cards to cast earlier in the game.

Card advantage is a concern. Topdecking a Skyshroud Claim doesn't feel great lategame, so there is a ceiling to how many of these I can run. Dire-Strain Rampage is a card I've been liking because it has some alternative utility outside ramping.

[pokken]

Don't care for these effects almost ever. The change in place of the game is not to my taste.

I think the one thing that wrong get me on it is if the deck was themed in doubling stuff.

[Treamayne]

Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare. In your opinion when are these cards worth using? As in, is there any chance of breaking parity on them without stax effects or combo?

To me, the main problem with these cards is the loss of Mana Burn. Back in the day, the benefit of mana doublers was the ability to use all of the mana, while an opponent might have to Burn with unspent mana every turn they failed to have a sink for the excess.

Soft Stax options like War's Toll can also help break parity without preventing other players from playing.

That said, Burgeoning can be a good alternative. If you also add Thawing Glaciers and Amulet of Vigor; they are all good alone, but the times you get all three early can be brutally effective. Besides Exploration, another decent G option is Gaea's Touch.

[3drinks]

Heartbeat of Spring and Mana Flare. In your opinion when are these cards worth using? As in, is there any chance of breaking parity on them without stax effects or combo? Also included here are Dictate of Karametra and Overabundance.

Anyone have luck with Vernal Bloom? Lots of green players in my playgroup though.

Btw, i wonder if running the bounce lands, ala Gruul Turf would actually be worthwhile with the above 2 cards.

The correct answer is, "only play this when you're about to win this turn". Which for the deck presented, is never. You just can't let your opponents untap with that much mana and expect things will be fine.

Vernal Bloom is great in mono-g. That was one of my key cards when I still had the Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger deck (I'm real fun at parties y'see -_- ). My goal was to power this thing out by t3-t4 (4 was slow) and I could surely use the bloom far better than anyone else did. That deck was also ~52% ramp because I was the moron that had an 8mv commander. I wouldn't play it outside of mono though, unless you're on G G or something similarly slanted (Surging_Chaos' Captain Sisay was built in such a way, back over on @mtgsally).

Bounce lands with extra land plays are always worth it. So much value to be had that you might even consider going as deep as Explore and Summer Bloom with these effects.

I hope this answered your question.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Very good in Vintage cube storm and group hug. Very bad everywhere else. Mana is the most dangerous resource to hand out freely.

[Ulka]

They also have a home in Yurlok of Scorch Thrash but yea mana doublers than are universal are only good if you are either trying for a very fast game at the end of the night or you are playing a ton of X spell finishers otherwise they are not worth the risk.

[RowanKeltizar]

Thanks guys, yeah. I'm just not naturally a green player. Playing on such a high mana curve feels weird. I like the deck though, so just looking for ways to jump it up a notch.

Fueling Exploration and Burgeoning seems like my best bet outside of the typical Rampant Growth effects. Slotting in another non-symmetrical mana doubler or picking up an Urza's Incubator (ouch) would probably also be a decent plan.

[Sinis]

In your opinion when are these cards worth using?

It's a 3 mana High Tide. You use it to win the game and then your opponents never get to use it.

I never play these.

[Dunharrow]

The thing with your general is that when you hit with it you get card advantage. Getting more ramp cards in your deck, even though they are weaker in the late game, is not so bad. Worse to not get to 8 mana! You have a high curve! You can also play looting effects to throw away extra ramp spells.

Exploration package is only really good if you have the following:
- ability to play lands from the graveyard + fetchlands
- Ability to play lands form the top of your library
- Insane amounts of draw
- Insane number of lands.

[Treamayne]

The thing with your general is that when you hit with it you get card advantage. Getting more ramp cards in your deck, even though they are weaker in the late game, is not so bad. Worse to not get to 8 mana! You have a high curve! You can also play looting effects to throw away extra ramp spells.

Exploration package is only really good if you have the following:
- ability to play lands from the graveyard + fetchlands
- Ability to play lands form the top of your library
- Insane amounts of draw
- Insane number of lands.

I would add "Bounce shenanigans" to this list (e.g. Storm Cauldron, Overburden, etc.)

[RowanKeltizar]

The thing with your general is that when you hit with it you get card advantage. Getting more ramp cards in your deck, even though they are weaker in the late game, is not so bad. Worse to not get to 8 mana! You have a high curve! You can also play looting effects to throw away extra ramp spells.

Exploration package is only really good if you have the following:
- ability to play lands from the graveyard + fetchlands
- Ability to play lands form the top of your library
- Insane amounts of draw
- Insane number of lands.

Yeah, you make some good points. I'm not sure I have enough natural support to make Exploration and Burgeoning good. My commander certainly doesn't do anything to support those cards. Wish he had "Eminence: Abundance" lol

I think part of the problem with this deck is that there are a fairly limited number of dinos that have abilities I actually want. Looking forward to more dinos soon please!