Karador, Ghost Chieftan, Abzan Value Midrange

[TheGildedGoose]

For Abzan Hatebears I think Tymna the Weaver and Kamahl, Heart of Krosa are the best commanders for it. It's both card draw and a finisher in the command zone, which solve the two biggest Hatebear problems. Karador, Ghost Chieftain's biggest draw is resilience, which Hatebears tend to already be.

I don't like telling people to change commanders but I just think you should play to Karador's strengths if you play him. 2-for-1s become 3-for-1s with Karador, which in my humble opinion gives Karador a more inevitable and grindy game plan. I don't think you should play to not lose like @WizardMN suggests but I do think you should focus on a longer game.

Either way, have you considered Serra Paragon? More recursion is always useful.

[duducrash]

@TheGildedGoose I actually ran Tymna and Kamal for a bit after taking Kethis, the Hidden Hand out of the helm. I think that I might be a bit to loose with my gameplan, with the combo of hatebears + recursion value, but I really enjoy the play pattern we have here, like they are complementary. The hatebears, ideally are early game for me, as I slow everyone down and play the midgame, the midrange is the reason I'm playing Karador. Karador, Lurrus and the legendary bird that brings people back are really good value engines. and I'm not super focused on hate, in fact, many of the hate cards I think I would keep in other areas, like Dauthi Voidwalker for value. I can see me maybe trimming the bears a bit more to go towards the value in the future, maybe cutting both Thalias, but right now I like it in my meta. specially GOT

I took great insipiration from @WizardMN's thread! It is really good!

Either way, have you considered Serra Paragon? More recursion is always useful.

I did! I really wanted to play with it. Because its redudancy in both land and creature recursion. But I havent found the opportunity to trade for yet. I'm a bit concerned with the exile clause too, not too much, but a bit. I will trade for eventually and test it

[pokken]

For Abzan Hatebears I think Tymna the Weaver and Kamahl, Heart of Krosa are the best commanders for it. It's both card draw and a finisher in the command zone, which solve the two biggest Hatebear problems. Karador, Ghost Chieftain's biggest draw is resilience, which Hatebears tend to already be.

I don't like telling people to change commanders but I just think you should play to Karador's strengths if you play him. 2-for-1s become 3-for-1s with Karador, which in my humble opinion gives Karador a more inevitable and grindy game plan. I don't think you should play to not lose like @WizardMN suggests but I do think you should focus on a longer game.

Either way, have you considered Serra Paragon? More recursion is always useful.

The thing Karador brings that's unique is dodging commander tax. He'll almost always cost WBG if you're even slightly committing to the mill subtheme. And he reads "draw two cards a turn" most of the time, which is nearly as good as Tymna.

The sac outlets and self mill that support Karador are great with hatebears too because it gives you card selection that those decks really struggle for without having to just jam tutors.

Karador reading "The hatebear that bothers you the most is coming back again and again and again" is *significantly* different than anything Tymna can do, distinct enough I think it's a much different deck.

But you do need to commit to having sac outlets and self mill/discard to support it. Being able to say Hushbringer for me but not for thee is just spectacularly powerful..but you need to be able to sac it and replay it after you do your value dance.

--

My one major complaint about this build of hatebears is that, the strictly best hatebear effects in Commander are Hushbringer effects. I would like to see at least 2 or 3 of them -- Hushbringer and Tocatli Honor Guard are the two I would run (since they are cheap). I'd also consider Strict Proctor since it can do some similar stuff and shuts down more things.

The second best hatebear effect is Archon of Emeria and I would slam dunk that one daily and nightly in this deck. Sac it, cast all your stuff, recast it, enjoy the lock goofballs

--

And if you spring for a major upgrade someday...Survival of the Fittest is truly absurd with Karador.

[duducrash]

The second best hatebear effect is Archon of Emeria and I would slam dunk that one daily and nightly in this deck. Sac it, cast all your stuff, recast it, enjoy the lock goofballs

thats a really really really nice play pattern I never explored! braking the symetry of this hate effects, I never explored that but that blew my mind. I will for sure try

[duducrash]

Some changes im testing

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

In

Knight od the reliquary

Tocatl honor guard

Ancient greenwarden

Satyr wayfinder

Field of the dead

Strip mine

Marsh flats

Verdant catacombs

Tear asunder

Eiganjo castle

Knight of autumn

Skyfish spider

Out

Selvala, heart of the wilds

Ratadabrik of urborg

Llanowar wastes

Nissa, vastwood seer

Anafenza, the foremost

Fell stinger

Kataki, war's wage

Reshape, ancestor's apostle

Plains

2 BG taplands

Want

Canopy vista

Hushbringer

Fabled passage

High market

Stinging study

Greater Good

Snow-covered lands

Approximate Total Cost:

[duducrash]

Some changes im testing

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

In

1 Knight od the reliquary

1 Tocatl honor guard

1 Ancient greenwarden

1 Satyr wayfinder

1 Field of the dead

1 Strip mine

1 Marsh flats

1 Verdant catacombs

1 Tear asunder

1 Eiganjo castle

1 Knight of autumn

1 Skyfish spider

Out

1 Selvala, heart of the wilds

1 Ratadabrik of urborg

1 Llanowar wastes

1 Nissa, vastwood seer

1 Anafenza, the foremost

1 Fell stinger

1 Kataki, war's wage

1 Teshar, ancestor's apostle

1Plains

2 BG taplands

Want

1 Canopy vista

1 Hushbringer

1 Fabled passage

1 High market

1 Stinging study

1 Greater Good

1 Snow-covered lands

Approximate Total Cost:

[duducrash]

I dont keep this topic as updated as I could, I'll probably update the OP once im settled on LOTR cards but im big hype

Rise of the Witch-king is pretty solid ive played it twice and both times it resulted in some nuts scenarios, specially good in the etb heavy builds

Boromir, Warden of the Tower all star of the set for me, pretty great card, it being able to sac at anytime you might need an opponent to play a free Counterspell is aditional greatness

Not lotr but Shigeki, Jukai Visionary also sweet

[duducrash]

I updated the OP with some info about the current decklist and my vision / how I play the deck. I'll try to keep the list clean / updated from now on!


From wilds of eldraine I got

Lord Skitter's Butcher - I added this to the list, I had Fell Stinger in the past, the versatility is what gets me. Getting the whole team meance again and again can be really sweet
Moonshaker Cavalry - Flyinghemoth was avaliable on a crazy trade. I got it to act as a finished to a stalled board
Street Wraith - I'm on a run on cyclers, this might be a rushed inclusion but I'm happy with it now
Eagles of the North / Troll of Khazad-dûm / Generous Ent - I'm in love with the 1 Mana LOTR cyclers. I'm running all 3 here and I think they are really really good.



Consideration:
Blossoming Tortoise I like the mill + ramp. I just don't know if I love it at 4 CMC. I think I might try if I get one
Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat - I have won more than a few games thanks to Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim and maybe I should be running more of those effects. Death by a thousand paper cuts its a real thing on EDH games

[duducrash]

Small changes, wont update the OP yet because more to come and pending some tests but

Out

Luminous Broodmoth
Street Wraith

In

Werefox Bodyguard
Spore Frog

[TheGildedGoose]

Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat - I have won more than a few games thanks to Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim and maybe I should be running more of those effects. Death by a thousand paper cuts its a real thing on EDH games

I've been thinking of going in this direction with Karador myself. Closing out games with grindy midrange piles is always a problem and aristocrat effects present a natural finisher. Don't forget Throne of the God-Pharaoh, unless you're turned off by the fact that it isn't a creature. I'll post a draft in a bit.

[duducrash]

Closing out games with grindy midrange piles is always a problem

Yes. The idea of "Playing not to die" is pretty sweet and generate some really cool grindy games, but turning the corner and actually winning always present a challenge in this multiplayer games. I'm actively sacrificing for value 1 or 2 creatures a turn to bring back with Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Lurrus of the Dream-Den , I'll try some more of this effects the next time I buy cards

[TheGildedGoose]

You need Tombstone Stairwell, especially if you run the aristocrat effects. That card is nutty.

[PrimevalCommander]

Since you play Lurrus, maybe look at Triarch Praetorian for a little dude that draws cards. Doesn't trigger the first cast, but it still did better than Vulturous Aven and friends since I like the body to stick around for other triggers, or blocking.

[duducrash]

You need Tombstone Stairwell, especially if you run the aristocrat effects. That card is nutty.

Damn, Ive never seen this card before. Its actually pretty sweet, specially with heavy self mill

Since you play Lurrus, maybe look at Triarch Praetorian for a little dude that draws cards. Doesn't trigger the first cast, but it still did better than Vulturous Aven and friends since I like the body to stick around for other triggers, or blocking.

I did run Fell Stinger for a little while to a similar effect, i'm running a new rat from eldraine that lets me sac someone else to get scry and draw, i'm favoring ETBs recently because of Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines but she might be a cut eventually. I think I run 4 realiable sac outlets, maybe to run this I would need more

[duducrash]

In my efforts to keep this list somewhat updated, I'll share changes here. I missed some updates

out
Heroic Intervention
Torens, Fist of the Angels
Beast Whisperer
God-Eternal Oketra
Archon of Emeria
3x Forest
1x Swamp

In

Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Eldritch Evolution
Rushed Rebirth
Blossoming Tortoise
Morbid Opportunist
Castle Garenbrig
Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Snow-Covered Forest


Some reasoning :

God-Eternal Oketra was underwhelming. It was rarely bad, but it was rarely good. I took her out for the Blossoming Tortoise , soon followed Torens, Fist of the Angels , might put him back in though, I'm unsure.

Archon of Emeria , I like how it plays, sac it play my stuff, replay it. But its unwelcome at certain tables, it also brings a target that I'm not keen on having, my whole thing is not dying.
Eldritch Evolution and Rushed Rebirth wanto to take advantage of Karador being a 8MV commander taht actually costs 3.

simple swaps

Heroic Intervention - I wanted to play it somewhere else and only had one copy, and this deck care more about creatures so I brought Shalai, Voice of Plenty back. I like she can also double as a wincon
Beast Whisperer isn't bad, it was good actually, but I think Morbid Opportunist will draw 1 more per turn cycle on average
Snow-Covered Forest and Snow-Covered Swamp work for Field of the Dead . Castle Garenbrig is good in this deck too.

[duducrash]

I was playing another deck and my opponent got so much value out of a card im trying it mysef for a while

Felidar Retreat in for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[duducrash]

Ixalan has come and with it some changes.

The first change is a philosophy one. This is my deck, the one I reach for whenever I want to play, the one that peopl associate with me nowadays. For this reason I decided to remove some of the hatebears in order to make the gameplay experience better for more tables. And I shifted the deck to a more midrange build

OUT

Werefox Bodyguard
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg
Dauthi Voidwalker

IN

Carmen Cruel Skymarcher
Bartolomé del Presidio
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Sun Titan


This changes are weird, it goes against the trend of lowering the deck average MV, but thats ok. The deck has been performing well.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite comes right back, she closes games.
Sun Titan needs no introductions, specially good with builds with fetchlands.
Carmen Cruel Skymarcher - I tought of her as Sun Titan at home. Drew her once this weekend and she was pretty great actually, for reasons I don't expect to happen all the time but still. Between my sacrificing and a Juri, Master of the Revue player, she grew enough to end the game by her self
Bartolomé del Presidio - Free sac outlet for 2. he seems pretty great. Havent seen him yet, but all others free outlets are great

[TheGildedGoose]

How have the aristocrats been working out for you? They seem great for some sort of reach even if they don't progress your gameplan much.

[duducrash]

How have the aristocrats been working out for you? They seem great for some sort of reach even if they don't progress your gameplan much.

Really good TBH. Most games I win, are closed in part by aristocrats. Whenever I can get a Zulaport Cutthroat I might add it too. Specially because this deck had a common problem of dominating the board, being able to tutor once a turn with Fiend Artisan and my biggest wincon was an alpha strike. I can't count how many games I had several pieces of drain on the battlefield and killed the table with Cruel Celebrant effects. To a point I was also considering Corpse Knight . I assume another free sac outlet will help smooth things out.

But overall really happy with the aristocrats subtheme, Field of the Dead is a pretty great card in decks that can enable it, and the small advantages it gives are specially great with this package!

[TheGildedGoose]

Good to hear about the aristocrats. Another benefit I've found when playing with them is the incidental life gain. 5-10 life can easily be the difference between life and death.

I'll post a draft in a bit.

I never posted this, but I'm tinkering with Abzan stuff all the time. I'm currently working on a Nethroi, Apex of Death list that is extremely similar to this and some of the other Karador lists on the forum. I think I prefer the explosiveness of the cat to counterbalance what is already a slow, grindy deck. At any rate, I'm glad you decided to cut the hatebears. They're effective no doubt, but man do they make games a slog for your opponents. I feel very similarly about wanting to have a midrange casual deck to pull out at most tables and everyone still has a good time.

[duducrash]

They're effective no doubt, but man do they make games a slog for your opponents.

For sure. I kept 2 there as "silver bullets" . Collector Ouphe and Drannith Magistrate and even when they are played fair some folks get unhappy with it. I might even cut them in favor of a random 6 drop.

Please do share your list!

[TheGildedGoose]

Please do share your list!

It's not finished yet, and these days I like to have one or two revisions before posting, but yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'll PM you when I get it posted and we can compare notes.

[duducrash]

Im giving up on my beloved hatebears. I had only 2 left but people groaned even seen them. So i'll test replacements

Out
Collector Ouphe
Drannith Magistrate

In
Corpse Knight
Welcoming Vampire

I think id have
Zulaport Cutthroat over either, but I just cant find mine. I'll grab another eventually. Also unsure if welcoming vampire is worth, but it will be an easy cut eventually so there is that I guess

[duducrash]

Some more changes. Welcoming Vampire was indeed an easy cut. Even though it did some work, its not amazing, and having Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite out will negate her effect. So I decided to move on without her. I found my Zulaport Cutthroat and decided I had enough effects to warrant a Teysa Karlov on the deck. Even though I don't have many token producers, I do have Field of the Dead out costantly. I might lean back into some play creature tokens cards, like Torens, Fist of the Angels and God-Eternal Oketra

I think I'll shift this landbase towards a Hermit Druid friendly one. this will be a process and I'm not in a hurry. So I'll see how I can do it. I didn't hate Crop Rotation and I'd run it. Just had a hard time deciding what to cut.

IN

Zulaport Cutthroat
The Shire
Overgrown Farmland
Teysa Karlov
Castle Locthwain

OUT

Snow-Covered Forest
Snow-Covered Plains
Neverwinter Dryad
Crop Rotation
Snow-Covered Swamp

[PrimevalCommander]

This reminds me I had decided to put my Field of the Dead in my Karador deck. I'm not running the 9 fetch suite, but I like me some Life from the Loam and Kura, the Boundless Sky in that deck for manipulating Channel lands and on-color fetch lands.

I had a big lands matter package in Karador years ago, but the payoffs weren't there to compete against the reanimator main theme. Now with Field + Channel Lands, I might need to revisit Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator as part of my ramp package. And my opponents just LOVE popping my Phyrexian Tower and friends to keep me off my sac outlets. So I'm usually loosing 1-3 land drops per game as they play whack-a-mole with my sac lands.