[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Jetfire, Ingenious Scientist

[FenrirRex]

I really enjoy cycling as a mechanic, just getting value out of otherwise unused cards feels great and I love drawing piles of cards. I run a full cyclinig package (including these) in my Ranar the Ever-Watchful deck. Getting piles of tokens while generating value on-board and drawing cards is exactly what I want to be doing.

[Outcryqq]

Astral Slide and Astral Drift are some of my first tutor targets in my Zur the Enchanter cycling deck. They wreck face: can be used offensively or defensively and reward me for doing what the deck already wants to do (cycle cards).

[3drinks]

I know people loves these cards but I have never been interested in playing them. I can't work out how to make Cycling work with ETBs. What synergy is there?
I know there are some good synergies, like recent cards that care when cards are put into exile, and Containment Priest to get rid of your opponents' creatures.... Or I suppose you could play a general with an ETB.
Maybe it's the cycling part that I find underwhelming. I just don't see it as a fun strategy.

I put in good work with Archfiend of Ifnir in a Kaalia, Zenith Seeker build. Used Approach of the Second Sun as a finish since cycling draws closer and you have a deck that clears the top six on ETB.

[Sinis]

Monday, May 10th, 2021; Astral Slide and it's slightly under developed third cousin, astral drift

Somehow, the Jeskai commander from Ikoria stymied my interest for cycling. It's like they were building up to it with the 'draw your second card' effects from Eldraine (Improbable Alliance, Irencrag Pyromancer, et al), and then... the deck just kind of builds itself. There are a bit too many obvious inclusions.

I mean, clearly there are other places to take this than the prefab commander WotC released.

Are people sick of my plargg obsession yet? I can't seem to stop building new decks for him.

NGL it's getting a little weird, but, you do you man!

[pokken]

I generally like cycling though I dislike the very powerful uninteractable pieces - e.g. Decree of Annihilation's uncounterable armageddon.

Astral Slide and such I have a mixed relationship with. I love instant speed blinking and instant speed shenanigans in general, but man, slide just completely owns so many decks once it's online in a very difficult to interact with way. It's an axis problem that's hard in magic because it's so complex.

[Ruiner]

I absolutely love this card. I played a ton of Astral Slide 60 card decks for years in various color combos. Black/White was particularly fun with stuff like Skeletal Vampire and Angel of Despair.

I've never made the leap to try a slide deck in EDH though because it is hard to guarantee getting it and then protecting it seems like a bit of a chore due to the 1-of nature of this format. I've considered making a Zur deck with it at the center as he does seem to be the most reliable at playing and protecting it.

[Sinis]

Astral Slide and such I have a mixed relationship with. I love instant speed blinking and instant speed shenanigans in general, but man, slide just completely owns so many decks once it's online in a very difficult to interact with way. It's an axis problem that's hard in magic because it's so complex.

Ok, but it's nothing a Disenchant won't fix, right? Triggers are hard to interact with, but enchantments are less so.

[FenrirRex]

I've never made the leap to try a slide deck in EDH though because it is hard to guarantee getting it and then protecting it seems like a bit of a chore due to the 1-of nature of this format. I've considered making a Zur deck with it at the center as he does seem to be the most reliable at playing and protecting it.

It's actually very reliable at this point since there is a lot of redundancy between Astral Slide, Astral Drift, and even Escape Protocol if you don't mind throwing some mana into the effect (with the added benefit of flickering your artifacts for potential value).

[pokken]

Ok, but it's nothing a Disenchant won't fix, right? Triggers are hard to interact with, but enchantments are less so.

Yeah sorta. Typically astral slide decks play a lot of ways to defeat that, stuff like Sun Titan and similar. it's usually not a sovereign solution and now that there're two of them exiling isn't really either.

I think it's pretty much a waste of time to say "dies to doomblade" anymore, when we talk about how oppressive something is when it's online it's not like we don't know removal exists.

[Sinis]

I think it's pretty much a waste of time to say "dies to doomblade" anymore, when we talk about how oppressive something is when it's online it's not like we don't know removal exists.

I was thinking of that when I wrote it, but I think what I'm saying is (slightly) more nuanced than that. You're saying "it's hard to interact with cycling triggers", and I'm saying "there alternatives to dealing with cycling triggers."

If I wrote "It's really hard to beat Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in creature combat, you pretty much have to have Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon plus pump, Sword of Kaldra, Pit Spawn or Godsend" shouldn't you just say "Swords to Plowshares lol? Why are you talking about all these weird corner case combat effects when there's a path of less resistance elsewhere?"

I'm not saying "Dies to removal" I'm saying there are other axes to interact with.

You said "It's an axis problem that's hard in magic because it's so complex." I'm saying "probably not."

[pokken]

I was thinking of that when I wrote it, but I think what I'm saying is (slightly) more nuanced than that. You're saying "it's hard to interact with cycling triggers", and I'm saying "there alternatives to dealing with cycling triggers."

If I wrote "It's really hard to beat Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in creature combat, you pretty much have to have Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon plus pump, Sword of Kaldra, Pit Spawn or Godsend" shouldn't you just say "Swords to Plowshares lol? Why are you talking about all these weird corner case combat effects when there's a path of less resistance elsewhere?"

I'm not saying "Dies to removal" I'm saying there are other axes to interact with.

Sure, have some additional interaction surface in the form of the second rarest form of removal (after targeted walker removal, and land i guess). But don't overstate what you 'get' for that interaction.

Because they can react by cycling all their nonsense at instant speed, you often get to either take a turn off while they slow blink all your dudes or watch them generate a ton of value (redraws for all their cycling stuff, plus all the blinks they give themselves).

The interaction surface of enchantment removal is usually getting 5-for-1'd and then watching them recur it next turn

And yes, because of the complexity of Magic you don't get to interact with any of the cycles or cycling abilities - regardless of whether you can interact with slide. If they have one of the cycling effects that counters spells e.g. Decree of Silence or Complicate then you have nothing you can really do

If they've set up say, Sun Titan + Astral Slide you have to have two instant speed removals to stop it, or graveyard hate. And this is just cards in their deck.

[Sinis]

Sure, have some additional interaction surface in the form of the second rarest form of removal (after targeted walker removal, and land i guess).

Idk. Most colours can destroy enchantments these days.

My only point is that it's not "counter cycling triggers or bust."

And yes, because of the complexity of Magic you don't get to interact with any of the cycles or cycling abilities - regardless of whether you can interact with slide. If they have one of the cycling effects that counters spells e.g. Decree of Silence or Complicate [/card] then you have nothing you can really do

Ok, I mean, if they have all those specific cards, maybe I just have a Krosan Grip, a Grand Abolisher on the table, and a Bojuka Bog?

[pokken]

My only point is that it's not "counter cycling triggers or bust."

Sure. And my point is that, generally speaking, trying to kill the enablers is just OK.

Slide decks present a surface where you'll usually get outvalued trying to kill enablers, and you're better off trying to go over the top of them, which is the problem in the design.

Ok, I mean, if they have all those specific cards, maybe I just have a Krosan Grip, a Grand Abolisher on the table, and a Bojuka Bog?

By all of those specific cards you mean two cards one of which is the engine of the deck and the other is a top tier enabler, and now you need 3 specific cards to answer while the rest of your opponents do whatever they want? sure!

[Sinis]

Slide decks present a surface where you'll usually get outvalued trying to kill enablers, and you're better off trying to go over the top of them, which is the problem in the design.

Idk man, just maindeck Stabilizer in every deck. That'll solve it.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Are people sick of my plargg obsession yet? I can't seem to stop building new decks for him.

Personally, I can hold my ire until more than half the flux decks in your signature are Plargg. After that, I will be forced to demand satisfaction.

[pokken]

Idk man, just maindeck Stabilizer in every deck. That'll solve it.

And you nailed the problem with slide decks in one. They attack on a surface that is difficult to be prepared for, and is quite tedious.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Idk man, just maindeck Stabilizer in every deck. That'll solve it.

And you nailed the problem with slide decks in one. They attack on a surface that is difficult to be prepared for, and is quite tedious.

I suppose, but there's other indirect ways of fighting cycling decks beyond just killing slide/drift again and again. Mass discard does them in handily, passive grave hate like RIP shuts down their usual recursion schtick, certain hatebears turn slide into a liability, and multiple commonly seen cards shut off drawing entirely now. And no cycling deck I've ever seen had Frosty's chance in Hell of beating solid stax.

It's annoying to combat, but slide is still just a gimmick deck at best. So many common answers to other problems overlap into keeping cycling decks down, so no stabilizer needed in my experience. At lower power levels, I can see slide.dec being slightly more problematic, but Golos Field of the Dead is a bigger boogeyman at those levels any day.

[pokken]

I can see slide.dec being slightly more problematic, but Golos Field of the Dead is a bigger boogeyman at those levels any day.

Generally the decks are not busted powerlevel wise, they just create lame games where you either have removal for their stupid trick or you don't or you infinite combo them.

Field of the Dead Golos is actually a really good example of a similar phenomenon with a similar level of interactivity mattering. "hey, I am gonna do my thing, you can watch me, or have exactly the combination of narrow-ish removal and grave hate to stop me, or you can combo over me"

It reminds me a ton of Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer actually too. The decks aren't like, busted, but it's basically a game of "do I have removal for Leyline of Anticipation ? No, ok, now I'll sit here and watch you durdle for 20 minutes casting morphs/making zombie tokens/flickering things"

And none of these scenarios are quite like Chulane, Teller of Tales or Korvold, Fae-Cursed King or The World Tree Golos decks where the thing you have to remove over and over again is their commander

[Dragoon]

@pokken : Can't you just exile the darn thing? Since the first release of Theros gods, I tend to always favour exiling when it comes to disenchant variants. (being able to also deal with Darksteel Forge and Darksteel Plate is just icing on the cake).

For Field of the Dead though, yeah, that's a different matter, we need more targeted land exile!

[pokken]

@pokken : Can't you just exile the darn thing? Since the first release of Theros gods, I tend to always favour exiling when it comes to disenchant variants. (being able to also deal with Darksteel Forge and Darksteel Plate is just icing on the cake).

For Field of the Dead though, yeah, that's a different matter, we need more targeted land exile!

Yep, sure can, just 'must have enchantment exile' is a pretty steep interaction request. Darksteel Forge decks are pretty similar about creating the 'ships passing in the night' problem.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I can see slide.dec being slightly more problematic, but Golos Field of the Dead is a bigger boogeyman at those levels any day.

Generally the decks are not busted powerlevel wise, they just create lame games where you either have removal for their stupid trick or you don't or you infinite combo them.

Field of the Dead Golos is actually a really good example of a similar phenomenon with a similar level of interactivity mattering. "hey, I am gonna do my thing, you can watch me, or have exactly the combination of narrow-ish removal and grave hate to stop me, or you can combo over me"

It reminds me a ton of Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer actually too. The decks aren't like, busted, but it's basically a game of "do I have removal for Leyline of Anticipation ? No, ok, now I'll sit here and watch you durdle for 20 minutes casting morphs/making zombie tokens/flickering things"

And none of these scenarios are quite like Chulane, Teller of Tales or Korvold, Fae-Cursed King or The World Tree Golos decks where the thing you have to remove over and over again is their commander

I kinda see your point, but I was saying that at least the slide decks have more alternate pitfalls than Golos FotD, which has nearly none. As I said, many common cards built to hate on other things hit slide decks too. No argument that the ensuing game is lame either way, but that is the gimmick deck wheelhouse for you. I'd compare it more to spell lands belcher than golos though.

[3drinks]

As for the slide phenomenon, let's not forget we have Sevinne's Reclamation + Hall of Heliod's Generosity to further backup, of which hall saves slide from said impending yard hate.

[Mookie]

Astral Slide is a sweet card, and one of the primary payoffs for cycling decks - turning every card in your hand into a cantripping Cloudshift is pretty strong, and you can also use it defensively to flicker your opponents' creatures. It's capable of generating a lot of value from ETB effects, and it can also protect your creatures from removal (including mass removal, since the creatures return at end of turn).

...I haven't played against Astra Slide since Gavi, Nest Warden was printed - all the variants I've played against have been older Zur the Enchanter builds. The deck has also certainly gotten a bunch of new toys, so I could see it being pretty annoying to play against. It's a bit of a feast-or-famine strategy. If you have Slide online, the deck looks insane, while if you don't have it online, the deck does nothing. If it's the case that the extra redundancy has pushed things over the edge...

[hyalopterouslemur]

Wrath protection, but it also provides a nice wincon (among other things) for Life from the Loam loops. (For the uninitiated, cycle a land, dredge LFTL, cast LFTL to recur cycling land, repeat.)

Flash fact: It is linear, requiring not one but two themes to your deck, but at this point, I would say cycling has been used enough to call it "not parasitic".

[RadiantSophia]

Are people sick of my plargg obsession yet? I can't seem to stop building new decks for him.

I can only respond for myself, but no, I am not sick of being obsessed with Plargg (It's that ultra-high, raising a glass to chaos collar.)

End transmission.