Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

@yeti1069 and anyone else finding themselves playing in long grindy games where you have the opportunity to build the kind of board that could make you lose to mill. You can always put an elixir of immortality in your deck. You can get it back with sevinne's. And you can pop it after a mass reanimate to skirt the downside. I was thinking about it. Maybe theres a better option but that one came to mind.

Elixir of Immortality is just not worth the squeeze I don't think.

Generally speaking you can use Volrath's Stronghold or Unholy Grotto to beat mill most of the time - unless they happen to have instant speed mill effects, in which case I'm fine to just lose.

Because we don't mill all that much and most tuned decks are playing Entomb it might be worth playing Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - it's a bit of a blunt instrument.

First on the hit parade vs mill is probably a second instant speed reanimate like Wake the Dead or Rally the Ancestors. If you get milled almost out, hit one of those and it's party time

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I don't know that its ever been enough of a problem to really justify packing answers for for me. I've been bogged before, and that sucks but its possible to work around.

I guess there's Kozi and the titans but I'm not prepared to spend that sort of money to mitigate corner case tech. It may well happen more for others than me though so YMMV. There's also Perpetual Timepiece which is basically a free roll get out of jail free card. The upside there is if yiu want specific stuff tucked back in but not the dross you get to pick and choose.

As an aside I picked up all of the VOW rares I wanted. Necroduality ended up dropping below 30 again so I just went ahead and got it. Everything else was cheap enough, so now I've just gotta fillin in the shopping list with the bulk singles.

[pokken]

interestingly I did some more thinking bout the grave hate stuff, and I think it's better to just jam another counterspell 99% of the time:P

[plaganegra]

@yeti1069 and anyone else finding themselves playing in long grindy games where you have the opportunity to build the kind of board that could make you lose to mill. You can always put an elixir of immortality in your deck. You can get it back with sevinne's. And you can pop it after a mass reanimate to skirt the downside. I was thinking about it. Maybe theres a better option but that one came to mind.

Elixir of Immortality is just not worth the squeeze I don't think.

Generally speaking you can use Volrath's Stronghold or Unholy Grotto to beat mill most of the time - unless they happen to have instant speed mill effects, in which case I'm fine to just lose.

Because we don't mill all that much and most tuned decks are playing Entomb it might be worth playing Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - it's a bit of a blunt instrument.

First on the hit parade vs mill is probably a second instant speed reanimate like Wake the Dead or Rally the Ancestors. If you get milled almost out, hit one of those and it's party time

Just to be clear I would never play elixir in my deck, but if you find yourself going through your library for one reason or another with frequency it is time to add a combo, or something like elixir, or evaluate your card choices.

Those top of deck lands wont save you from your own draw effects or varina, but would def stop mill for at least a couple turns assuming you don't do anything at all with your board (most likely). If anything you are just delaying your inevitable demise...

I wouldnt use kozilek either, much more likely to screw up your GY or be a dead card than save you from mill in most games. elixir is very controllable and only costs 1 mana, self contained, recurrable with cards many of us use already. Has some marginal utility in an average game at low cost, and at least you can discard it with Varinas ability without shuffling the Yard.

Again, mill shouldn't be a problem at all in Varina and probably indicates another inefficiency with the deckbuilding. Mill players actually help us win, and if you are drawing your deck and not winning thats a symptom to a different problem...

[toctheyounger]

interestingly I did some more thinking bout the grave hate stuff, and I think it's better to just jam another counterspell 99% of the time:P

The new Amalgam covers you off, if you can swing it.

[yeti1069]

Definitely wouldn't run anti-mill tech in here.

[toctheyounger]

It would have to be very aggressive mill not to benefit us more than it hinders us in my opinion.

[plaganegra]

Good so we are all in agreement haha

[tstorm823]

But what if the anti-mill tech is Time Spiral.

[pokken]

I don't think varina wants time spiral really. You usually win by critical mass in the bin.

[tstorm823]

I don't think varina wants time spiral really. You usually win by critical mass in the bin.

Probably not, just throwing out an example of anti-mill tech that isn't such a laser focused card. There are a good number of recursive cards that also fill a library back up. I'd play something like Gravepurge before Perpetual Timepiece.

[Reya]

We absolutely don't care about mill strategy honestly. There is very rare corner case where you can loose to mill.... nothing to worry about. After all, it's magic! %$#% happens sometimes We cannot win everything and plan to counter every single strategy available. Otherwise you start to include cards that are useless 99% of the time.

(I remember when I was thinking to include Rift Sweeper in some deck just in case some very good stuff would have been exiled.... but again, corner case that happens one time in a thousand games).

[ChocoDude]

Random un-Varina related question. What are your favorite card sleeves? I've been using Katana sleeves, but I'm curious what folks think of them versus the Dragon Shields, which I've never used but my LGS has a ton of supply. When I started playing Commander was around the time the Katanas had just hit the market and I got them from a different LGS that really liked them. I got to feel both and liked the Katanas more at that time, but I'm curious if any of you have been able to compare the two experientially? And whether there are other sleeves out there besides those two that are great as well?

[pokken]

Random un-Varina related question. What are your favorite card sleeves? I've been using Katana sleeves, but I'm curious what folks think of them versus the Dragon Shields, which I've never used but my LGS has a ton of supply. When I started playing Commander was around the time the Katanas had just hit the market and I got them from a different LGS that really liked them. I got to feel both and liked the Katanas more at that time, but I'm curious if any of you have been able to compare the two experientially? And whether there are other sleeves out there besides those two that are great as well?

Katanas take so much longer to sleeve for me becaues I double sleeve and they are slightly tighter, so every single card you have to use the unsleeved-card-behind trick to get the sleeevein. I will ever buy another set for this reason and the next time I unsleeve the ones I have thye are going in the ***** trash

so it's dragon sleeve mattes for me pretty much - I do like non-matte Ds as well but they aren't quite as nice to shuffle. I'm at 4 decks in ds mattes, 1 non-mattes and 1 katana right now I think

I should also note that my perfect hard deck (ephara foil), perfect hards do not fit in katanas well at all. it felt scarily snug. DS really the only good option for perfect hards.

[toctheyounger]

Dragon shields have been my go to. I like glossy over matte, but they're good enough that I just don't feel the need to move away from the brand.

Fwiw though I don't double sleeve. Perhaps I should but its never where I want to spend what money I have.

[Reya]

I only use Matte Black Dragon Shield.

[ChocoDude]

Thanks! I've never tried the unsleeved card behind trick, but that's because I too haven't really double-sleeved. I have a couple of double-sleeved cards that I've received from folks through Cardsphere, but couldn't be bothered to remove the sleeve. I've noticed some folks sent me double-sleeves that had the opening on the long-side and some with the opening on the top. Any preferences there? If so, what brands and models/types would you recommend?

[yeti1069]

Dragon Shield Mattes here as well.

[ChocoDude]

Do you each get all the same color of card sleeves so it's easy to swap cards around between decks?

[toctheyounger]

I will say the more double sided cards are printed the more likely I am to double sleeve. 2 of my more played decks in Bruna and Nissa are double faced commanders so I probably ought to start double sleeving.

I have different colors for each deck myself. Varina is in like a bronzed gold color because she's top of the pile. Cream of the crop in the words of that heraldic prophet of latter days, Macho Man Randy Savage.

[pokken]

Do you each get all the same color of card sleeves so it's easy to swap cards around between decks?

I always get the color of sleeves I like the best for the deck, and then when I reuse them I try to pick from my assortment =P

folks sent me double-sleeves that had the opening on the long-side

They defeat half the purpose of double sleeves since they provide no liquid protection at all, and they are annoying as crap Likely less dust protection too since there's no seal.

Your card goes into a double sleeve upside down, then the opening goes toward the bottom of the other sleeve. This provides quite a lot of spill protection and protects the top of your card (most likely area to get nicked).

[Reya]

Well, I finally bought the last cards I needed.

Necroduality, Headless Rider, Repository Skaab and Overcharged Amalgam. All 4 for 14€. I think it's not a good rate but I plan to keep them for a while and use some of them as "flex slots"! Worst case scenario it's not a lot of money.

I think we can tune our list ver well now ! Making slight changes back and forth.

[ChocoDude]

Thanks Gents! That makes sense about the top-loading inner sleeves. Do you recommend any particular brands?

As for Macho Man Randy Savage, I had a buddy where I grew up that loved watching WWF. I didn't watch much, but I remember seeing Rick Flair (I think) and Andre the Giant (pre-Princess Bride) on TV. It was all kind of funny to me, but my buddy was way way into it and even wrestled in high school. Good times! Was there a guy named Jake the Snake too?

As for my sleeves, I have the yellowish-gold Katanas, but that's the only color I have for all of my decks as just seemed easier for me swap cards around and to tell if it was mine when I play against friends. Most folks don't use that color of sleeve. I always pick a different color sleeve for my commander specifically and that color of card I pick based on what I think the commander should have. I think I use indigo (dark-dark-purplish blue) for Varina. Maybe because it's primarily black with some blue and less white. Liesa I chose silver for some reason as it seemed like a balance between black and white. And on and on.

[yeti1069]

I used to get different color sleeves for different decks, but found it annoying when it came time to decommission decks, or if sleeves got ruined.

[toctheyounger]

Well, I finally bought the last cards I needed.

Necroduality, Headless Rider, Repository Skaab and Overcharged Amalgam. All 4 for 14€. I think it's not a good rate but I plan to keep them for a while and use some of them as "flex slots"! Worst case scenario it's not a lot of money.

I think we can tune our list ver well now ! Making slight changes back and forth.

That seems a good rate to me. I'm still working on Repository but paid probably a similar amount for the rest, and theyre extended art versions for that extra swag too. Necro seems to have settled around 30 NZD and will probably stay about there till the set rotates id imagine.