Ghired, Conclave Exile - Triple Dipping Naya Lards

[PrimevalCommander]

If Horn of the Mark had trouble hitting creatures looking at 5 cards. Doors of Durin probably doesn't have enough hits with 23 creatures to be worth the 5 mana.

[yeti1069]

Have you ever thought about adding Cream of the Crop I think it's a better Horn of the Mark. I run it in my Ghired, Conclave Exile deck. You can really start digging with the token doublers out.

Horn is card advantage, ideally putting 1-3 cards in your hand. Cream is basically super-scrying, but multiple triggers still only put the 1 card you want on top. It can let you dig, but without other draw, you're not getting that card until your next turn.

[Rumpy5897]

I did some goldfishes with Cream of the Crop and the card is fantastic. It offers dig close to Greater Good while not sacrificing board presence. This is the most efficient way to mow through the deck in search of whatever piece is missing from the puzzle - a land drop to help ensure the plan works out, a beefslab, a copier, whatever you wish. I am not accustomed to seeing these many cards this reliably, and it leads to some interesting line sculpting. When a hand is looking pretty good, I find myself gravitating toward trying to find a protection spell, something that I don't think I've ever had the luxury of before. Also it combos extremely well with Elemental Bond variants.

The card has to go in, no questions asked. Finding a cut is a bit more troublesome. Elemental Bonds were just disclosed as comparably the weakest draw, but they also work impeccably with this. I'm kinda looking to Harmonize, but it is a rare piece of creature-independent draw. Maybe the cut is somewhere else altogether?

I need to put some actual games on the deck, having a bunch of decks and trying to walk most of them leads to not quite as much data as I used to have back in the day. Goldfishing is imperfect for evaluating cards. I remember Dopehawk did fine enough in situ to earn a nickname, but I find myself leering at the card when doing dry runs.

Do you have a list? Maybe there's some other spicy tech I'm not aware of. This is a general open request to anyone reading, the more Ghired builds the merrier.

As for Doors of Durin, the fact it scries 2 and you can do whatever is nice. The fact you can occasionally cheat something big into combat is nice, but we go back to the standard issue of attack triggers or stuffing a Kiki into the red zone. It's a neat value card, should find homes aplenty. Don't think this is one, it just costs too much and the returns are not what we're after.

[Naota481]

Happy WOE spoiler season!

This looks particularly sick where it sits on the curve, ghired into this populating one of those tokens seems good.

[Rumpy5897]

Gruff Triplets is an interesting card, one that asks more questions than provides answers. The gameplay it seems to want involves single-target saccing (preferably with power-based payoff), populating, counter shenanigans. Ghired does one of those, and not as a focal point but rather as an amplifying measure. I don't really see a game state where this does anything too meaningful. That said, the beauty of EDH as a post-format is that it's cool to do whatever. So feel free to run it, and if it turns out to be awesome then report back. I've misjudged stuff in the past, and posters in the thread got me back on track. Thank you thread posters

WOE carries a bunch of rhyming designs that don't quite make it in. The closest would be Up the Beanstalk, as a bunch of the deck's critical spells and commander all cost 5 or more. Thing is, if you're casting those critical spells, you're doing okay, you found what you're after. Elemental Bond variants draw cards off Rhinos, which is more relevant mid-game functionality as pieces are still being fished for. Whoof might be nicer than the original here because the Rhinos have trample already, but one way or another I don't see myself running a Hoof in here Stroke of Midnight is another Beast Within variant, albeit modernised to not hit lands. Thunderous Debut could be bargained easily, but then why not just add one mana more and go through the whole deck rather than the top 20? That said, I don't see myself running Tooth and Nail here either for similar cost/sequencing reasons to Hoof.

I'm currently very close to replacing Vigor with Cream of the Crop, but remember that I ran into a protection shortage in some of the test games. I can technically reach deathtouch pieces via creature tutors, which is close enough. I probably need to start tutoring Ohran Frostfang more aggressively rather than put Iroas back in, but it is food for thought. I'm also less close to replacing Lightning Greaves with Crashing Drawbridge as I like some of the tension this swap solves, but the drawbacks have already been mentioned before.

[yeti1069]

Gruff Triplets is an interesting card, one that asks more questions than provides answers. The gameplay it seems to want involves single-target saccing (preferably with power-based payoff), populating, counter shenanigans. Ghired does one of those, and not as a focal point but rather as an amplifying measure. I don't really see a game state where this does anything too meaningful. That said, the beauty of EDH as a post-format is that it's cool to do whatever. So feel free to run it, and if it turns out to be awesome then report back. I've misjudged stuff in the past, and posters in the thread got me back on track. Thank you thread posters

WOE carries a bunch of rhyming designs that don't quite make it in. The closest would be Up the Beanstalk, as a bunch of the deck's critical spells and commander all cost 5 or more. Thing is, if you're casting those critical spells, you're doing okay, you found what you're after. Elemental Bond variants draw cards off Rhinos, which is more relevant mid-game functionality as pieces are still being fished for. Whoof might be nicer than the original here because the Rhinos have trample already, but one way or another I don't see myself running a Hoof in here Stroke of Midnight is another Beast Within variant, albeit modernised to not hit lands. Thunderous Debut could be bargained easily, but then why not just add one mana more and go through the whole deck rather than the top 20? That said, I don't see myself running Tooth and Nail here either for similar cost/sequencing reasons to Hoof.

I'm currently very close to replacing Vigor with Cream of the Crop, but remember that I ran into a protection shortage in some of the test games. I can technically reach deathtouch pieces via creature tutors, which is close enough. I probably need to start tutoring Ohran Frostfang more aggressively rather than put Iroas back in, but it is food for thought. I'm also less close to replacing Lightning Greaves with Crashing Drawbridge as I like some of the tension this swap solves, but the drawbacks have already been mentioned before.

Can you remind us why you're not a fan of Hoof?

If I can get a copy of WHoof (I like the name) cheaply, I'm almost certainly going to slot it in. Whether it replaces Craterhoof or goes in alongside, I'm still not sure. There have been times where the hasty body adding to the attack has been very relevant, but for most of those instances, simply flying over blockers probably amounts to the same amount of damage, or more.

[Rumpy5897]

Same as always. In EDH, Hoof shines as an "oops I win" button on a wide board. Drop it with like 20 chumps present and it's all over. We don't swarm that hard. In a vacuum, there need to be seven Rhinos already present on the board for total P/T on the Hoof turn to go into triple digits. Copied Hoof is an effective game ender, but if I need to copy the Hoof I may as well copy something that doesn't cost eight mana to end the game instead. In summary, while eventually lethal, it's just slower than the options I opted for.

[yeti1069]

Same as always. In EDH, Hoof shines as an "oops I win" button on a wide board. Drop it with like 20 chumps present and it's all over. We don't swarm that hard. In a vacuum, there need to be seven Rhinos already present on the board for total P/T on the Hoof turn to go into triple digits. Copied Hoof is an effective game ender, but if I need to copy the Hoof I may as well copy something that doesn't cost eight mana to end the game instead. In summary, while eventually lethal, it's just slower than the options I opted for.

My experiences with Craterhoof have been that it is a game-ender on considerably smaller boards. You only need triple digits if somehow no one has been hit at all/have not gained a lot of life. The floor is comparable to that of Ibex, while the ceiling is higher without a copy effect, and lower with (although it's considerably higher with myriad). It's more mana, but it also doesn't require an outside haste enabler to get going. What can you copy that is a game ender that turn, aside from Ibex?

Aside from the deck being more green than white, I'd absolutely go with the new WHoof here, if I get my hands on a copy.

[BasketChase]

Happy Lost Caverns spoiler season everyone! Looks like we might have to make room for two new cards from set, the first-of-it's kind token tripler Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation, and a much cheaper & more recursive source of populate, Life Finds a Way. Can't wait to see what other new goodies we might be getting spoiled with this set.

[yeti1069]

Hadn't played the deck in a while, but picked it up tonight. Ended up having to go to 6 for a keepable hand, which in this case included Dockside vs an Urza deck, some 5-color sliver deck that dropped a bunch of artifacts in the first 2 turns, and the new Bant golem/food deck. Turn 2 I dropped Hall of the Bandit Lord, and turn 3 put down Dockside for 5 treasure (if I had waited one more turn cycle I would have had double that), followed by Ghired with haste (and 1 treasure left over). Next turn, the extra treasure meant I could also deploy Ohran Frostfang, and then I was chugging along. I proceeded to steamroll the table. Turn 5 I dropped Terror of the Peaks for fair mana, and took out a dangerous creature. Turn 6 I dropped Aurelia, pinged off a couple creatures with Terror (the populated rhino from Ghired in combat meant that death touch was applied, so it was able to kill a 7/7 flyer), lost Ghired to double blockers, but had enough to clobber the slivers player who had just tutored up 5 dangerous cards off of a Tiamat (Maskwood Nexus tribal) and put some damage on the other 2 to knock them down to the teens. I got slivers' Coveted Jewel on the first attack, drew 3, and use it it to cast Sundering Growth (populate took out another problematic creature), and Swords. The other two scooped grumbling about Dockside and my deck being too strong. Admittedly, no one played any interaction whatsoever for 6 turns.

[PrimevalCommander]

The other two scooped grumbling about Dockside and my deck being too strong. Admittedly, no one played any interaction whatsoever for 6 turns.

I see this all the time in my group. Aggro decks to really well if they are left alone for 6+ turns with not interaction. Something that should be glaringly obvious to those who have some experience with the game. When one deck pulls way ahead of the rest of the table we can usually look directly to the lack of interaction that was pointed in that players direction. I do play some decks that are low on interaction, but I concede the fact that sometimes I will get out classed by those who do. Mainly aggro decks that want to play proactively and push others to answer my field, rather than worrying about having the answers. Player removal is permanent removal, to a point. It doesn't always work out, and I am okay with that.

[yeti1069]

Had a silly game I wanted to share.

Playing vs. 2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger and a Malcolm/Breeches. I got clobbered by one Ghalta and some other damage on top of hitting myself with Ancient Tomb, and go down to 18. On my following turn, I playing a scry land, and saw Blasphemous Act on top. I had Return of the Wildspeaker and Flawless Maneuver in hand with just enough mana to cast Return then the 1 mana for Act. So I did that, and dropped Flawless to protect my board, removing a ton of stuff, including both Ghaltas.

Next turn, I finally got to really see some silliness fromQuartzwood Crasher. I had out Flameshadow Conjuring, Ghired, Ogre Battledriver, and 3 rhinos. Dropped Quartz, copied with Flameshadow, then made another copy with Ghired. Spreading around attacks, I ended up with 3 3/3s, 3 8/8s, and 3 12/12s! I held back 2 mana for the Heroic Intervention I had drawn, but aside from a Treachery that stole a Ghalta and my own BAct, there was no interaction this game. To close things out, I dropped Skyhunter Strike Force on the next turn, copied it, and swung the army, 1 of each of the 3/3s, 4/4s, 8/8s, and 12/12s going to each player (plus Ghired, and a populated 12/12), with two instances of melee, giving +6/+6 to everything except the populated token.

[yeti1069]

The other two scooped grumbling about Dockside and my deck being too strong. Admittedly, no one played any interaction whatsoever for 6 turns.

I see this all the time in my group. Aggro decks to really well if they are left alone for 6+ turns with not interaction. Something that should be glaringly obvious to those who have some experience with the game. When one deck pulls way ahead of the rest of the table we can usually look directly to the lack of interaction that was pointed in that players direction. I do play some decks that are low on interaction, but I concede the fact that sometimes I will get out classed by those who do. Mainly aggro decks that want to play proactively and push others to answer my field, rather than worrying about having the answers. Player removal is permanent removal, to a point. It doesn't always work out, and I am okay with that.

I'm always boggled by the lack of interaction run by established players. Newbies, sure, but if you've been playing Magic for a few years, I feel like you should have learned that you can't always rely on simply being the bigger fish.

[Rumpy5897]

Been a while since I showed my face around these parts. I didn't play or think about the deck for a while, and once I picked it up again with fresher eyes the gameplay revealed itself to be somewhat more combo oriented than I realised. Not in the literal Kiki Conscripts style, but if I land one of my crown jewel beatsticks that just end the game when copied then it doesn't feel like much of what I did before mattered. Yeah yeah, I probably made some Rhinos, drew some cards to find the A-B setup, but then I pointed a Cabaretti Confluence at Angel of Destiny so who cares. That's not necessarily a bad thing, needing the Rhinos to do anything wasn't part of the original design pitch, and the prime beef being this efficient is very much desired. Just feels kind of funny to realise some parallels to a seemingly unrelated deck style after a while away.

A different style of game that happens is more akin to what yeti reported, where the prime beef doesn't come together (in yeti's case presumably because he doesn't run it ) and I just smother the table under a critical mass of various supporting pieces. Hook up Aurelia with some token doubling, toss a Saryth in there and the table falls over before I do the thing. I guess it doesn't help that I tend to play in a 3-man setting, and chewing up 80 life is easier than 120. I should be running Neyali, Suns' Vanguard - the combination of extra oomph with card advantage at a sub-5 cost is very tempting, and would probably end up overpowering many a game via pure Rhino beats. I've already got supporting pieces that respond well to being copied, like Dopehawk. Should I consciously take a step toward yeti land and pursue more of them? This would probably mean another look at my copier pieces, as a bunch of pressure would be taken off attack triggers. Maybe myriad stuff like Blade of Selves could make its way in, over some of the one-shot or otherwise less flexible effects?

There's a good chance these musings are the product of my shift as a player. My post-Ghired decks tend to be dependent on critical masses of stuff coming together, and as such I'm probably tempted to mirror the approach here. It can feel borderline alien to pick up Daxos after a bit of a break and look at Grim Tutor in the opening hand. It's fine to have different decks that want to do different things, and it's important to distinguish between learning lessons from other decks and subconsciously pulling toward a homogenised design.

New releases! Cards! Universes Beyond stuff first! Arboreal Alliance would be cute as a two-mana setup for repeatable populate, but the timing is kind of awkward Cat Car style and the deck is not exactly brimming with Elves. City of Death is a surprisingly serious consideration, as you end up with a three mana Growing Ranks that also happens to incidentally ramp out Ghired. I wouldn't fault anybody for running this. Romana II is worded so she can nab tokens your foes make, which explains her otherwise rather conservative design. Wreck and Rebuild is a decent value card, with removal and ramp modes and even flashback, but damn that thing costs a bunch.

LCI's got some tempting stuff on offer. Bronzebeak Foragers is a Grasp of Fate on a body, and could get rather ugly if copied. To balance things out, the body is a humble 3/4 and would probably end up having some issues in combat. Dino DNA is an interesting option here as being turned into a 6/6 with trample actually ends up being an upgrade for a number of the beefslabs, but it's got the standard recursion world problem of being conditional. Get Lost is white goodstuff removal with decent spread at two mana and instant speed. Glimpse the Core made me remember I run Wood Elves, and having an extra Rampant Growth would be nice for powering out Ghired early. Thing is, I do occasionally incidentally copy the Elf for value. And if I want to take the ramp down to two mana, maybe rather than going for something Rionya-compatible I should for for Fertile Ground so Arbor Elf and Saryth see it? Also the land aura is technically better for tempo later, which doesn't hurt either. Still, there's an extra Rampant Growth in the mix now, so need to consider that. Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation // Temple of Civilization is the inevitable token tripler. At six mana and legendary, it feels like a Rhino deck card. But what a Rhino deck card it is.

I've done some minor swaps pertaining musings from earlier posts, but am awaiting some more games in paper to see how they hold up. Dedicated card tests can only tell you so much.

[yeti1069]

I guess it doesn't help that I tend to play in a 3-man setting, and chewing up 80 life is easier than 120.

Ahhh. This explains some things. There's such an enormous difference between 3- and 4-player pods for decks that need to commit to the board and turn sideways. I had had an Edgar Markov deck, modeled after someone else's low-mana curve version, with tons of 1- and 2-drop vampires, but where they seemed to be winning every game, my winrate at a full table was 0%, while at a 3-person table it hovered around 75%. In 4-player games, I would almost always eliminate 2 players and have a 3rd near death before that last player offed me. Part of that (both with the vamps and with the rhinos) is due to not focusing down one player at a time most games. It's the optimal way to pilot the decks, but it can make for socially unpleasant games. Still, I've leaned more into that approach, and still find that the threat of the deck is scary enough that most removal gets turned my way. Pods that feature a lot of sweepers (as was the case when I was playing vampires with typically 4-7/game) are so much more devastating vs 3 opponents than vs 2.

I'll say that, at this point, I think we still overlap considerably on most cards. I haven't run the angel here, in part for the reasons you've cited--it feels a lot like a combo win, especially if you have haste and copiers available as soon as its played to get in for a win the same turn. I haven't adapted your elf+aura ramp setup, in part because I find that leaning on bodies for ramp is just asking to get blown out if the deck doesn't otherwise make good use of those bodies (ie., Meren). For the auras, I just need to stop being lazy, go find my copies, and slot them in.

I also haven't played the deck much lately, as I've put together several decks over the last year, which took more of my attention.

I should be running Neyali, Suns' Vanguard - the combination of extra oomph with card advantage at a sub-5 cost is very tempting, and would probably end up overpowering many a game via pure Rhino beats.

This looks very good here! Double strike for the tokens for 4 mana is, I think, the best rate?

LCI's got some tempting stuff on offer. Bronzebeak Foragers is a Grasp of Fate on a body, and could get rather ugly if copied.

I don't like these sorts of effects on creatures, as I find that they're too vulnerable. The single-target versions aren't too bad if they otherwise figure into the game plan, such as by being a tribal piece that triggers or counts toward stuff, but the multi-target versions are just BEGGING for one of the 3 affected players to remove it, and I've found no amount of negotiating, politicking, nor sense is proof against ill-conceived reclaiming of one's own piece. On top of that, it means that the next board wipe sets you much further back than your opponents who get to reclaim a board presence immediately. I'd rather go for Luminate Primordial or the like.

[yeti1069]

Have you considered Etali, Primal Conqueror // Etali, Primal Sickness? I hadn't, but with the various ways the deck has to copy creatures, Etali would be some significant value. Not necessarily aggressive beef, but it's hard to out value even one resolution of the ETB, let alone 2+ over a turn or two.

[Rumpy5897]

24.01.2024 Changes

Time to push out some way overdue changes that I've had in paper for a while.

24.01.2024 Changes

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Out:

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Vigor

In:

1 Crashing Drawbridge

1 Cream of the Crop

Approximate Total Cost:

Cream of the Crop is insane, thank you so much for the recommendation. The level of dig it offers is unprecedented, even if it comes in the form of card selection instead of card advantage. Note the "if", by the way - combine with trickle draw like Elemental Bond and you've built an Impulse engine. And all for two mana too! Has to be tried to be believed. Taking out Vigor as an overcosted lump of useful yet kind of overpriced utility. It does things, and offers cool game steals with Blasphemous Act, but it does charge six for the privilege. It's closer to the legendary goodstuff angels than to the current creatures in the deck. In turn, Crashing Drawbridge is a sidegrade to Lightning Greaves. More vulnerability for a wider spread and lack of nonbos. Despite the swaps happening a while back, I'm yet to actually see the Drawbridge in action. Somehow I'm yet to draw it. If it turns out to massively disappoint, I can just undo the swap later.

I am not going to do a beatstick revamp at this time. On one hand, it would be fantastic to get rid of attack trigger beef and rework the copier suite to make use of myriad (Blade of Selves and Duke Ulder Ravengard would immediately enter the 99). Thing is, what the hell do I even put in? Pretty much the only beatstick in semi-active consideration for the 99 is Skyhunter Strike Force, and that's an attack trigger. Yeti's Etali suggestion is interesting, as it would just drown the table in value, but that's seven mana and seven mana beef has historically not held up well due to curve considerations. There are various removal ETB options, some of which were also recently rattled off by yeti, but it's not the sort of thing my group would be fine with. Terror of the Peaks is a thing that exists. I could technically slightly reduce beatstick density and use one of the slots on Neyali, but that inches me toward becoming a Rhino deck, something I don't super want to be. Eh. I don't know.

[yeti1069]

I'll say that in the couple of games Skyhunter has shown up, it's been a BOMB.
I've also liked Ulder Ravengard when he's come up.

Drawbridge I'm curious to hear about. I feel like Greaves dodging board wipes has been relevant more often to get Ghired (or some other beef) back into the action immediately than either needing a wider haste effect or the occasional nonbo with targeting and Greaves. If it were that important, I feel like I'd rather run one of the various 3-mana haste enchantments, or Nahiri's Resolve for the (partial) board protection and additional ETB triggers.

[PrimevalCommander]

I've been testing Crashing Drawbridge in Titania, Protector of Argoth as a second Concordant Crossroads and have been disappointed so far. Being a creature with summoning sickness and vulnerable to removal means the only 2 times I have had it on the battlefield so far has seen it wiped off the board before my next turn. I'm not giving up yet, but the explosiveness of that deck, and this one, means opponents are not likely to let it live if they have a choice. And being an artifact creature opens up more removal options on it. If I was in red I would just go with Tuktuk Rubblefort, Anger, Gimli's Reckless Might, or any one of the many other red haste enchantments/creatures that don't require a . The drawbridge is just not very good when you have red in your color identity.

Being mono-green I have far fewer options for mass haste, but another one or two failures on the drawbridge and it is getting cut.

[Rumpy5897]

I haven't had the chance to encounter Drawbridge in the wild yet. I've spent most of my EDH juices on Saryth (which immediately employed the freed up Vigor), but if it does disappoint it's very easy to flip it back.

MKM's main contribution to the format comes in the form of surveil typed lands. I like my lands rather untapped in Ghired, think I'll sit these out, but they are an option that's better than the plain typed duals. Aerial Extortionist is apparently a reprint from SNC commander, but I somehow completely missed it first time around. Get some copies going of this and it will be quite brutal in a slower shell, dispensing tempo hits around the board and picking up many cards as people rebuild. It could be quite okay even sans copy, which is a nice direction to aim for if trying to dial back the combo-like tendency of some of the more feast or famine beef. Archdruid's Charm is a pile of flexibility at GGG, with Tribute to the World Tree proving recently that a chiselled mana base in a green-centric deck can totally take it, but somehow I can't get myself excited about anything it does enough to carve out a slot. I think I've got enough tutors as is, and they don't come with three mana overhead. Well, except for Chord of Calling, but that one's just in a class of its own. Delney, Streetwise Lookout enters the maybe swap pile, though to a lesser extent than prior disclosed cards. If trying to move toward a more static, myriad'y direction then Thunderfoot Baloth would become a very desirable piece of beef, and it might even be worth it to revisit Archangel of Thune. Both of those turn off Delney doubling up Ghired, which is a bummer. However, there is a surprising density of various small creatures around which this would double, so hey, maybe it's worth eating some degree of nonbo. Havoc Eater is a card that amuses me more than it should, seems like it would be quite easy to get some huge fliers and cause chaos across the table. It doesn't help that my group hates goad though. Undergrowth Recon is conservatively worded so that you need two fetches to get this going properly, and even then we're not the sort of deck that would want this sort of ramp. Fallout was slim pickings. Securitron Squadron is cute rather than good, and would lead to logistics hell. Grim Reaper's Sprint is potentially two mana for an extra combat, though from experience if a creature died as you swung then you're not doing great and extra combats are not really on your mind. Watchful Radstag is incredibly cute, but not actually of any interest for running. Sunscorched Divide is the only signet land that was missing as this is a shard deck, but the other two existing signet lands are already not in.

Honestly, where would I go with this if I were to dial back the craziest beef? I'd rather like for the Rhino girth to actually matter, so I'm probably stuck stomaching the Delney nonbo if I go for it. I'd like to move the copiers to myriad value, but the first beatstick on the wait list is Skyhunter Strike Force, an attack trigger. We're back to various pieces grating against each other. Pretty much the only card that would be a perfect fit would be Neyali, Suns' Vanguard. I should find room in the existing build, shouldn't I...

[yeti1069]

I...should probably get Tribute in my list, and look at picking up a Charm.

I've been trying to figure out what to do with the Extortionist I have since I got it. This is an ok slot--maybe in place of Cavalier of Dawn? Same CMC, but a better stat line (4/3 flying > 4/6 vigilance most of the time), trading hard removal for tempo, and a downside of providing a body for the upside of drawing cards.

I, personally, will not run Delney here. I have 11 cards that would get a benefit, but even with working with Ghired that feels like a too much setup, for something so fragile (a 2/2 creature) that can also nonbo with any buffs.

Havoc Eater looks like a fun card to try here.

Neyali should probably be here. I keep forgetting that the exiled cards are accessible any turn a token attacked, even if Neyali gets removed, which is a plus, although it can be a little awkward if you exile cards you want to deploy before combat.

Vaultborn Tyrant over in OTJ spoilers looks very solid here. 7 mana is a lot for a value engine, but it's basically Garruk's Uprising with life gain added on a 6/6 trample body that replaces itself with a token version of itself (yay for theme!), a card, and life.

[Rumpy5897]

Yeah, Aerial Extortionist would be a super easy swap over Cavalier of Dawn in my book. SNC just keeps on giving, that set and its commander decks were incredibly inspired. I can see a myriad of interesting play patterns arising from the Extortionist. I'll try to playtest it with my group, but I fully expect it to go down poorly once the gears click into place. Thanks for reminding me of Neyali's cast restriction - I took note of it when dropping my initial delayed note about it, but then seem to have progressively forgotten about it as time went on. There are a whole bunch of cards that would not want to get stuck under there, the most obvious representatives being one-shot copiers and reactive protection spells.

We may only be partially done with spoiler season, but I've got a really bad feeling about OTJ. The set seems to be creaking at all possible joints, from three separate bonus sheets to seemingly stupidly powerful designs. Note the seemingly - Railway Brawler is one of those jaw-dropping reads, but then you run the numbers and he's not quite as impressive as feared. Behold, the return of the beatstick damage plot!

This time around I get away with not logging the Y axis as the damage considerations are quite low. The setup is the same as last time - the beatstick comes down the turn after Ghired, in the graph on the left a Kiki comes down the turn after that and keeps making a copy a turn, in the graph on the right the beatstick is left to its own devices. Brawler doesn't mog Thunderfoot Baloth super hard, despite reading a lot better on the surface. Turns out retroactively applying the buff to the whole board in a static manner is pretty good. On a related note, I ran the numbers for Skyhunter Strike Force, both in a conventional 4-man and my recently more common 3-man settings, and as it turns out the benefit being an attack trigger combined with the Strike Force's tiny body don't do it any favours. I also included Terror of the Peaks on account of it getting a reprint and being in orbit for what feels like forever, and it did not fare well at all, as expected. This may seem like a selective scenario, but it is a representative approximation of what is likely to occur in a game and captures general copy response prowess. The major disclaimer is Terror can technically hit stuff, giving up some of its (limited) pressure for board control. I can see a world where I take out Kalonian Hydra to make room as the Brawler vibes better with the rest of the deck. Angel of Destiny can be argued to depend a little bit on the Rhinos as maybe you'll need to heal up or something, but Hydra just scales to absurd damage heights and does not care at all about anything that came before, feeling somewhat anticlimactic.

OTJ is already brimming with other putative includes which merit discussing. The most noteworthy is a return of the head honcho as Ghired, Mirror of the Wilds. It's not a straight commander swap, new Ghired would build the deck a little differently - move a lot of effects to utility creatures, move the draw suite toward Guardian Project/Shamanic Revelation sort of stuff as the comfort of Rhinos is not there anymore, and probably look into controversial "has" haste token creation like Heat Shimmer. If you're making a large surplus of beef and just splatting the table that turn, the fact the tokens have a baked in death clause does not matter quite that much. In a bit of a fork in the road moment, I am not interested in moving to him as a commander. This is consistent with my interest in deescalating the combo feel of some of the deck's lines, which would just get dialled up to eleven in the new shell. For what it's worth, I'd totally run Ogre Battledriver in that other deck As for including it here... it's tricky. On one hand it would let the occasional utility guy double up to populate some stuff, but on the other the resulting token is unlikely to immediately pressure face.

Seeing how it's been a full year since our last Elemental Bond and this set's keen on forcing itself down your gullet, there are not one but two already revealed Garruks Rise Up variants. Vaultborn Tyrant I am not interested in, I'm not paying seven mana for that, even if it's resilient. However, Outcaster Trailblazer feels like somebody sat down and consciously nudged the card just the tiniest bit up in power to sneak it into decks. As the pilot of a five-drop commander that makes an appropriately sized body, I'm now considering cuts. Calamity, Galloping Inferno dunks two tokens of something into combat, but said something didn't get to attack as a result, and also attack triggers are skipped. I'd probably do Duke Ulder Ravengard first.

[KneeJustice]

24.01.2024 Changes

Time to push out some way overdue changes that I've had in paper for a while.

24.01.2024 Changes

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Out:

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Vigor

In:

1 Crashing Drawbridge

1 Cream of the Crop

Approximate Total Cost:

Cream of the Crop is insane, thank you so much for the recommendation. The level of dig it offers is unprecedented, even if it comes in the form of card selection instead of card advantage. Note the "if", by the way - combine with trickle draw like Elemental Bond and you've built an Impulse engine. And all for two mana too! Has to be tried to be believed. Taking out Vigor as an overcosted lump of useful yet kind of overpriced utility. It does things, and offers cool game steals with Blasphemous Act, but it does charge six for the privilege. It's closer to the legendary goodstuff angels than to the current creatures in the deck. In turn, Crashing Drawbridge is a sidegrade to Lightning Greaves. More vulnerability for a wider spread and lack of nonbos. Despite the swaps happening a while back, I'm yet to actually see the Drawbridge in action. Somehow I'm yet to draw it. If it turns out to massively disappoint, I can just undo the swap later.

I am not going to do a beatstick revamp at this time. On one hand, it would be fantastic to get rid of attack trigger beef and rework the copier suite to make use of myriad (Blade of Selves and Duke Ulder Ravengard would immediately enter the 99). Thing is, what the hell do I even put in? Pretty much the only beatstick in semi-active consideration for the 99 is Skyhunter Strike Force, and that's an attack trigger. Yeti's Etali suggestion is interesting, as it would just drown the table in value, but that's seven mana and seven mana beef has historically not held up well due to curve considerations. There are various removal ETB options, some of which were also recently rattled off by yeti, but it's not the sort of thing my group would be fine with. Terror of the Peaks is a thing that exists. I could technically slightly reduce beatstick density and use one of the slots on Neyali, but that inches me toward becoming a Rhino deck, something I don't super want to be. Eh. I don't know.

Hi everyone! I've recently gotten more into MTG, and I love this thread. I have been following avidly and I am grateful for the clear way Rumpy and the rest of you are explaining how all the card interactions work. As a newcomer, I have greatly appreciated having so many good teachers.

I also love the way this deck plays; it basically addresses my disappointment as a noob upon picking up the precon and realizing that Ghired's populate doesn't let me copy my big creatures I already have without that extra "tokenization" step. The deck's got enough intricacy so as to be stimulating, but it isn't overly complicated or confusing. It's also extremely satisfying when you can get all the pieces to fall into place... and even when it isn't working properly, it can still be a fun little puzzle to see if you can get out of a tough situation. I also appreciate the way you're not including some of the most degenerate stuff possible in the deck--I think that's good sportsmanship and I respect it.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in here as I see the interest in cheaper/wider haste. My sense has been that in this deck, you only really need one creature to have haste at a time (especially when the tokens spawn attacking into combat), although there are a few cases like the dovehawk where having mass haste would be nice. But since you're already experimenting with Crashing Drawbridge, I wonder if anyone has considered/would be interested in Emblem of the Warmind? I saw it mentioned in another thread and it's {1}{R} for mass haste, but it doesn't have summoning sickness like the Drawbridge. I guess it would be vulnerable to creature removal, but so is the drawbridge so you seem to be ok with that. If you put it on Ghired, you might incentivize someone to remove him, but what if you put it on a rhino or dork/utility creature?

[yeti1069]

Hi everyone! I've recently gotten more into MTG, and I love this thread. I have been following avidly and I am grateful for the clear way Rumpy and the rest of you are explaining how all the card interactions work. As a newcomer, I have greatly appreciated having so many good teachers.

I also love the way this deck plays; it basically addresses my disappointment as a noob upon picking up the precon and realizing that Ghired's populate doesn't let me copy my big creatures I already have without that extra "tokenization" step. The deck's got enough intricacy so as to be stimulating, but it isn't overly complicated or confusing. It's also extremely satisfying when you can get all the pieces to fall into place... and even when it isn't working properly, it can still be a fun little puzzle to see if you can get out of a tough situation. I also appreciate the way you're not including some of the most degenerate stuff possible in the deck--I think that's good sportsmanship and I respect it.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in here as I see the interest in cheaper/wider haste. My sense has been that in this deck, you only really need one creature to have haste at a time (especially when the tokens spawn attacking into combat), although there are a few cases like the dovehawk where having mass haste would be nice. But since you're already experimenting with Crashing Drawbridge, I wonder if anyone has considered/would be interested in Emblem of the Warmind? I saw it mentioned in another thread and it's {1}{R} for mass haste, but it doesn't have summoning sickness like the Drawbridge. I guess it would be vulnerable to creature removal, but so is the drawbridge so you seem to be ok with that. If you put it on Ghired, you might incentivize someone to remove him, but what if you put it on a rhino or dork/utility creature?

Welcome to MTG and stomping with Ghired.

I'd say that the value provided by an aura has to be pretty high (or that has to be a lot of synergy) to make it worthwhile, since it leaves you open to being 2-for-1'ed. In this case, I feel like it is generally going to be pretty bad (but test it out and see!), since we generally are most in need of haste before dropping Ghired the first time, when rebuilding after a board wipe, or for a few select creatures. Before Ghired comes down, the only creatures we're usually playing are ramp, so the question becomes: do we have a regular sequence where we're dropping a ramp/utility creature and then have 2 mana leftover for Warmind, or a turn in between playing whatever and dropping Ghired to deploy the aura instead of something else AND do we not have 3 mana available for any of the many 3-mana mass haste artifacts or enchantments? Post-board wipe, we don't have creatures to throw that on, so you either need an in between turn, again, to drop something, enchant it, and then follow-up next turn with Ghired, or else add a tax to recasting Ghired in order to run in. It being an aura also means that if you drop it before the wipe, for whatever reason, it's now almost certainly gone afterward. For the few creatures we'd want haste for specifically, Lightning Greaves covers that use case for the same mana cost, but as a less vulnerable card type to removal, and brings the added utility of shroud.

For my money, I would just prefer to run any of the 3-mana haste enchantments, or assume that I can capitalize the most on the 1-mana versions of Mass Hysteria or Concordant Crossroads. I never considered Drawbridge because it falls flat in too many of these scenarios, and I feel like its purpose is for decks not in to be able to get haste.

[KneeJustice]

Hi everyone! I've recently gotten more into MTG, and I love this thread. I have been following avidly and I am grateful for the clear way Rumpy and the rest of you are explaining how all the card interactions work. As a newcomer, I have greatly appreciated having so many good teachers.

I also love the way this deck plays; it basically addresses my disappointment as a noob upon picking up the precon and realizing that Ghired's populate doesn't let me copy my big creatures I already have without that extra "tokenization" step. The deck's got enough intricacy so as to be stimulating, but it isn't overly complicated or confusing. It's also extremely satisfying when you can get all the pieces to fall into place... and even when it isn't working properly, it can still be a fun little puzzle to see if you can get out of a tough situation. I also appreciate the way you're not including some of the most degenerate stuff possible in the deck--I think that's good sportsmanship and I respect it.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in here as I see the interest in cheaper/wider haste. My sense has been that in this deck, you only really need one creature to have haste at a time (especially when the tokens spawn attacking into combat), although there are a few cases like the dovehawk where having mass haste would be nice. But since you're already experimenting with Crashing Drawbridge, I wonder if anyone has considered/would be interested in Emblem of the Warmind? I saw it mentioned in another thread and it's {1}{R} for mass haste, but it doesn't have summoning sickness like the Drawbridge. I guess it would be vulnerable to creature removal, but so is the drawbridge so you seem to be ok with that. If you put it on Ghired, you might incentivize someone to remove him, but what if you put it on a rhino or dork/utility creature?

Welcome to MTG and stomping with Ghired.

I'd say that the value provided by an aura has to be pretty high (or that has to be a lot of synergy) to make it worthwhile, since it leaves you open to being 2-for-1'ed. In this case, I feel like it is generally going to be pretty bad (but test it out and see!), since we generally are most in need of haste before dropping Ghired the first time, when rebuilding after a board wipe, or for a few select creatures. Before Ghired comes down, the only creatures we're usually playing are ramp, so the question becomes: do we have a regular sequence where we're dropping a ramp/utility creature and then have 2 mana leftover for Warmind, or a turn in between playing whatever and dropping Ghired to deploy the aura instead of something else AND do we not have 3 mana available for any of the many 3-mana mass haste artifacts or enchantments? Post-board wipe, we don't have creatures to throw that on, so you either need an in between turn, again, to drop something, enchant it, and then follow-up next turn with Ghired, or else add a tax to recasting Ghired in order to run in. It being an aura also means that if you drop it before the wipe, for whatever reason, it's now almost certainly gone afterward. For the few creatures we'd want haste for specifically, Lightning Greaves covers that use case for the same mana cost, but as a less vulnerable card type to removal, and brings the added utility of shroud.

For my money, I would just prefer to run any of the 3-mana haste enchantments, or assume that I can capitalize the most on the 1-mana versions of Mass Hysteria or Concordant Crossroads. I never considered Drawbridge because it falls flat in too many of these scenarios, and I feel like its purpose is for decks not in to be able to get haste.

Thank you, Yeti! Yea, I agree with you that running lightning greaves has been fine for me so far and so I have not followed Rumpy's change to the crashing drawbridge myself (even as I am eager to hear of the results of his testing). I also have the 3-mana haste spells waiting in the wings (e.g. rising of the day, fires of yavimaya, and rhythm of the wild if it ever comes to that). I also haven't added emblem of the warmind to my deck yet, but may experiment with it a little bit to see if it does anything special.

The creatures I find myself wanting haste for most often are the attack trigger beef--specifically the Kalonian Hydra, Pathbreaker Ibex, or Angel of Destiny. If you can afford to tutor for those with e.g. finale of devastation, you could probably afford to play them plus a haste enabler, no? Having haste Ghired's first turn is nice but only gets you one extra rhino (or maybe a few with token doublers)--for me, it's the protection rather than the haste that's key, hence why I stuck with the greaves. I think your good point about the wipe is the biggest reason not to include warstorm though--but if Rumpy or others would be ok with leaving the drawbridge vulnerable to creature removal of any kind, they might be ok with this too. It's a 2-mana haste-enabler that avoids nonbos, so I'm simply mentioning it as I haven't seen it mentioned (but maybe that's for good reason :D).

Edit: here are some of the current spells where avoiding a nonbo would be beneficial: Rionya, Fire Dancer (targets in combat), Reconnaissance, saryth the vipers fang, hunter's insight. The Nesting Dovehawk populates without any haste and so benefits from mass haste, especially if you have a token copy up.