Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

Legion Loyalty is costly but is awesome. Myriad = Massive ETBs zombies. Massive Varina triggers!

Unlikely to be cast much. Lol.

Necroduality does largely the same thing, and at half the cost, and it doesn't see much play here.

[Rframpt]

So I have been wondering. How good have Liliana, Untouched by Death been for any of you? It might be that I am playing it wrong but everyone I get it in hand I always end up discarding it to Varina. I have also not found just having Shambling Ghast as a potential combo piece as enough reason to run her... Which is sad

[devilcatz]

Virtue of Loyalty is nice too.

[toctheyounger]

So Lili Untouched, to me, is for us Underworld Breach at home. It doesn't do any A+B combos, although there are a few A+B+C combos it allows. And yeah it definitely isn't as flexible as Breach, but when a card is compared to Yawg's Will favorably there's not much that will compare.

I think if you're not on Haakon, you're light on tutors and/or altars or you just don't wanna combo, any of those reasons are sufficient not to run it. But I also think if you're wanting any sort of layered versatility to any of those packages, it's very worth it. The removal and mill are nice, but they're very auxiliary, so in a low curve list it's reasonable to say no to it. That said dropping an ultimate the turn you play it is pretty great, and even outside of combo it isn't a terrible play to make.

The virtue cards are all fine enough. I think they're all quite expensive personally, and I'd be happier with that if they triggered in more than our own upkeep. But it's a standard set, what can you do?

As for other new releases, honestly I really have nothing pegged for Varina. Beseech is interesting, and I have to think a little more as to whether it's worth it. There's some plays there, it's just whether bargain is going to be more regularly beneficial or hindering, and whether it's better in a slot than anything else.

[Rframpt]

Maybe it is just me playing Liliana, Untouched by Death wrong as I play those things. Haakon has been okay and fine utility, altars are insane, have some tutors and the deck can go Infinite but I guess that might not be where I want Varina to be at for how I want to play the Deck

[toctheyounger]

Maybe it is just me playing Liliana, Untouched by Death wrong as I play those things. Haakon has been okay and fine utility, altars are insane, have some tutors and the deck can go Infinite but I guess that might not be where I want Varina to be at for how I want to play the Deck

That's fair. There's no need for Lili if you're not planning to combo, I guess. I'd say there's every reason to just chuck a lord in her place to maximise combat.

The deck in its current form does take a little sequencing practice too. To the point where sometimes it's unclear at the time you make those decisions whether they were right until later in down the track. That to me is part of what makes it fun, but it does mean that marginal pieces like Lili, while good in a combo context are other times just graveyard fodder. The deck is all about pragmatism to me. You've gotta choose what you hold onto to cover the most scenarios, or the most likely scenarios, and that's often a hard thing to get right.

Feel free to throw up a list if you'd like some help with a Lili replacement if you'd like.

[Rframpt]

My list in its current: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/geEvj5GMtEOSiM6v4Hdrzw

It is currently over hundred cards as I have some cards I would like to add into the deck but haven't found what to cut yet.

The deck function more like midrange Reanimator. Leveraging Varina's looting to get powerful Zombies in the years or to get annoying creatures that can recur themselves back in play for swinging while Varina is out.
Next to that it also has a lot of removal. My meta is very permanent base and folks play to the board. This deck can setup loops with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant to continue to wrath the board. A lot of exile removal for those types of permanents that are most answers or they take control of the game.

Varina is perhaps my favourite deck. As I constantly feel it can tackle most boards I encounter in my meta and it can always swift gears and tempo if need. All that is holding it back is the pilot errors I make when I mismanage the board

[pzbw7z]

Liliana, Untouched by Death can do spectacular things with Rooftop Storm. Fleshbag Marauder can clear all of your opponents creatures. Sidisi, Undead Vizier can tutor up every card in your deck - so many ways to win!

Without RS, Lili probably is pretty unspectacular.

[Rframpt]

Liliana, Untouched by Death can do spectacular things with Rooftop Storm. Fleshbag Marauder can clear all of your opponents creatures. Sidisi, Undead Vizier can tutor up every card in your deck - so many ways to win!

Without RS, Lili probably is pretty unspectacular.

yeah Rooftop Storm is pretty busted in a zombie. Before Varina got printed I had a Gisa and Geralf deck. Havengul Lich is among the most busted in that deck. Cast demonic tutor for one generic mana is insane. And if you can't win of that then what are you doing?

[Rframpt]

I do have a card I would like to try out in the deck, which is Court of Ardenvale. Certainly not to play it as the most optimal for the deck, but as a midrange engine piece. With the great amount of permanents with 3 cmc or less either to hand or keeping the Monarch getting it to the battlefield. Though in reality I am looking for some nice cards that can introduce the Monarch to more of my EDH games. Though sadly Custodi Lich is just such a bad card and isn't what I am looking for.

[toctheyounger]

I do have a card I would like to try out in the deck, which is Court of Ardenvale. Certainly not to play it as the most optimal for the deck, but as a midrange engine piece. With the great amount of permanents with 3 cmc or less either to hand or keeping the Monarch getting it to the battlefield. Though in reality I am looking for some nice cards that can introduce the Monarch to more of my EDH games. Though sadly Custodi Lich is just such a bad card and isn't what I am looking for.

I've found Crown of Gondor to be very good. Not sure it's stellar here, but I've had it in Bruna for a bit and it does great work there.

[Rframpt]

I do have a card I would like to try out in the deck, which is Court of Ardenvale. Certainly not to play it as the most optimal for the deck, but as a midrange engine piece. With the great amount of permanents with 3 cmc or less either to hand or keeping the Monarch getting it to the battlefield. Though in reality I am looking for some nice cards that can introduce the Monarch to more of my EDH games. Though sadly Custodi Lich is just such a bad card and isn't what I am looking for.

I've found Crown of Gondor to be very good. Not sure it's stellar here, but I've had it in Bruna for a bit and it does great work there.

Seems like a fine card, though likely not one I would play. It can't really steal the crown back once it gets introduced.

[pzbw7z]

Anyone on Grave Pact? I pulled one - two, actually - during the pre-release and it's got me thinking about giving it a go. The problem is, I'd probably have to cut Tombstone Stairwell for it, which I'm loathe to do. The only other reasonable option is Rooftop Storm but they will have to pry that from my cold, dead fingers.

[Rframpt]

Anyone on Grave Pact? I pulled one - two, actually - during the pre-release and it's got me thinking about giving it a go. The problem is, I'd probably have to cut Tombstone Stairwell for it, which I'm loathe to do. The only other reasonable option is Rooftop Storm but they will have to pry that from my cold, dead fingers.

I think it depends on what type of play patterns you what in the game. To me Grave Pact , Dictate of Erebos and Martyr's Bond are certainly powerful, though I think Noxious Ghoul serves a similar purpose for what edict cards. Ghoul works better for me as it can be reanimated with the many single target spells or mass reanimation spells.

On a different note, I also think on a different build with a lot of cheap creatures with deathtouch or some creatures that keep coming back from the grave, or a combination of these can certainly work and tip these creatures over to be very synergistic.

[pzbw7z]

Anybody like Silversmote Ghoul or Cemetery Recruitment?

[Rframpt]

Anybody like Silversmote Ghoul or Cemetery Recruitment?

Silversmote Ghoul was in a previous build of mine and is always on my radar when I make adjustments. It is fairly easy to get it on the field and three life isn't hard to get with Varina.
With a good amount of cheap reaccuring creatures it should be fairly great to have. Martyr's Bond, Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos gets very nice with the Sac on Silversmote Ghoul. Attack, trigger Varina, loot three gain three life, pay two sac ghoul to draw a card, get it back at end step

[pzbw7z]

Anybody like Silversmote Ghoul or Cemetery Recruitment?

Silversmote Ghoul was in a previous build of mine and is always on my radar when I make adjustments. It is fairly easy to get it on the field and three life isn't hard to get with Varina.
With a good amount of cheap reaccuring creatures it should be fairly great to have. Martyr's Bond, Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos gets very nice with the Sac on Silversmote Ghoul. Attack, trigger Varina, loot three gain three life, pay two sac ghoul to draw a card, get it back at end step

If only it weren't 3-MV. There's such a glut of spells at that value.

[Rframpt]

Anybody like Silversmote Ghoul or Cemetery Recruitment?

Silversmote Ghoul was in a previous build of mine and is always on my radar when I make adjustments. It is fairly easy to get it on the field and three life isn't hard to get with Varina.
With a good amount of cheap reaccuring creatures it should be fairly great to have. Martyr's Bond, Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos gets very nice with the Sac on Silversmote Ghoul. Attack, trigger Varina, loot three gain three life, pay two sac ghoul to draw a card, get it back at end step

If only it weren't 3-MV. There's such a glut of spells at that value.

While true it is also very discardable. So you don't necessary need to play it on turn three. Attack with three, have it be discarded, get it back at the end. Still pretty good to me I would say

[pzbw7z]

Silversmote Ghoul was in a previous build of mine and is always on my radar when I make adjustments. It is fairly easy to get it on the field and three life isn't hard to get with Varina.
With a good amount of cheap reaccuring creatures it should be fairly great to have. Martyr's Bond, Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos gets very nice with the Sac on Silversmote Ghoul. Attack, trigger Varina, loot three gain three life, pay two sac ghoul to draw a card, get it back at end step

If only it weren't 3-MV. There's such a glut of spells at that value.

While true it is also very discardable. So you don't necessary need to play it on turn three. Attack with three, have it be discarded, get it back at the end. Still pretty good to me I would say

The card draw and the ability to return to hand are very appealing. It's just hard to justify another 3-MV card. I'd have to cut something and I'm loathe to part with anything.

[Rframpt]

If only it weren't 3-MV. There's such a glut of spells at that value.

While true it is also very discardable. So you don't necessary need to play it on turn three. Attack with three, have it be discarded, get it back at the end. Still pretty good to me I would say

The card draw and the ability to return to hand are very appealing. It's just hard to justify another 3-MV card. I'd have to cut something and I'm loathe to part with anything.

Silversmote Ghoul doesn't return to hand it returns to the field tapped. Still makes me want to build a different version of Varina with these annoying creatures that keep returning

[Reya]

Hello,

After a few games I wanted to share my thouhts on my current list of Varina. Here is the link to my actual testing list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LyhWR3lW40ee9SnmZ3AjmA

Thanks to toctheyounger and pokken, I think I almost found a definitive version of Varina that I like. The list is very low to the ground and combo oriented.

I wanted to gave my advice on some "flex" slots:

- Flawless Maneuver: it should allow us to keep swinging regardless your opponents throw at us. It can also works almost like a free counterspell. Probably a card you can cut but I need to give a try. We can probably replace it with a counterspell or a tutor.
- Grave Pact: this one is not always easy to cast but this effect garanties we can keep using Varina ability. Our opponents won't want to loose their board by blocking a bunch of 1/1 and 2/2.
- Zombie Master: maybe one of the few lord I'm happy to play. Amazing with Urborg and keep Varina digging. Players often play black.
- Dreadmalkin: keeps the curve low. Enters untapped so you can better use it with Springleaf drum and Cryptbreaker.
- Swords to plowshare: I often found myself in situation where I absolutely remove an annoying creature at cheap cost. I have room to include this and I see no downside to this card.
- Cyclonic Rift: I found this better than Winds of Abandon. Instant speed is more flexible and you can get ride of quite anything.
- Withered Wretch: often I want to remove a critical card from a opponent graveyard. Plus, the 1 mana zombies slots are already full.
- Tidehollow sculler: seeing opponent hand is a huge advantage. Plus, you can permanently exile a card thanks to ours sac outletls (and like Withered Wretch, 1 mana zombies slots are full).
- Mox Diamond: the deck can easily afford to discard a land for this, given the fact we run Land Tax, Tithe and Crucible of Worlds.

Some cards I add really bad feeling each time I drew them:

- Cosmic intervention: never I wanted to keep 4 mana up. Even when foretold it does not worth the cost for me. Problem is you can't loop this as much as you want. The niche play you can do with fetchland is... too niche !
- Dread return: I never encountered a situation where I wanted to use it. The cost is too much for what it does. A mass reanimation can takes that slot.

Card I will maybe put back in at some point:

- Dictate of Erebos: flashing this is so powerful but 5 mana is quite big. For now grave pact does the job perfectly.
- Nantuko Husk: maybe if I feel the need for one more sac outlet. Espcialy since I play Grave Pact.

[pzbw7z]

Silversmote Ghoul doesn't return to hand it returns to the field tapped. Still makes me want to build a different version of Varina with these annoying creatures that keep returning

My mistake. That isn't necessarily strictly better for Varina. Master of Death appeals because it can be repeatedly pitched to Varina. Still, the sac and draw of Ghoul seems nice.

[pzbw7z]

- Flawless Maneuver: it should allow us to keep swinging regardless your opponents throw at us. It can also works almost like a free counterspell. Probably a card you can cut but I need to give a try. We can probably replace it with a counterspell or a tutor.
- Grave Pact: this one is not always easy to cast but this effect garanties we can keep using Varina ability. Our opponents won't want to loose their board by blocking a bunch of 1/1 and 2/2.
- Zombie Master: maybe one of the few lord I'm happy to play. Amazing with Urborg and keep Varina digging. Players often play black.
- Dreadmalkin: keeps the curve low. Enters untapped so you can better use it with Springleaf drum and Cryptbreaker.
- Swords to plowshare: I often found myself in situation where I absolutely remove an annoying creature at cheap cost. I have room to include this and I see no downside to this card.
- Cyclonic Rift: I found this better than Winds of Abandon. Instant speed is more flexible and you can get ride of quite anything.
- Withered Wretch: often I want to remove a critical card from a opponent graveyard. Plus, the 1 mana zombies slots are already full.
- Tidehollow sculler: seeing opponent hand is a huge advantage. Plus, you can permanently exile a card thanks to ours sac outletls (and like Withered Wretch, 1 mana zombies slots are full).
- Mox Diamond: the deck can easily afford to discard a land for this, given the fact we run Land Tax, Tithe and Crucible of Worlds.

I've never tried Flawless Maneuver. I've got a Grave Pact now and I plan to try it. Sadly, it will probably have to take the place of Tombstone Stairwell. I probably need another one drop, but I don't want to make room for something that isn't spectacular, so probably not the kitty. Swords is a beautiful card, I played it when it was in type 2 (Standard today) and it's still probably the gold standard but I currently value flexibility so my removal has to work for multiple permanent types. Cyclonic Rift is in the top fifteen saltiest cards - and my deck - for a good reason! I want to try Withered Wretch, but I'd probably have to cut Tidehollow to make room. Mox Diamond is out of the budget.

Some cards I add really bad feeling each time I drew them:

- Cosmic intervention: never I wanted to keep 4 mana up. Even when foretold it does not worth the cost for me. Problem is you can't loop this as much as you want. The niche play you can do with fetchland is... too niche !
- Dread return: I never encountered a situation where I wanted to use it. The cost is too much for what it does. A mass reanimation can takes that slot.

Card I will maybe put back in at some point:

- Dictate of Erebos: flashing this is so powerful but 5 mana is quite big. For now grave pact does the job perfectly.
- Nantuko Husk: maybe if I feel the need for one more sac outlet. Espcialy since I play Grave Pact.

Dread return has some combo potential, but I haven't given it a try yet. I agree about Intervention and Dictate. Husk is three-MV and it's tough to justify another card at that value.

[Rframpt]

Hello,

After a few games I wanted to share my thouhts on my current list of Varina. Here is the link to my actual testing list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LyhWR3lW40ee9SnmZ3AjmA

Thanks to toctheyounger and pokken, I think I almost found a definitive version of Varina that I like. The list is very low to the ground and combo oriented.

I wanted to gave my advice on some "flex" slots:

- Flawless Maneuver: it should allow us to keep swinging regardless your opponents throw at us. It can also works almost like a free counterspell. Probably a card you can cut but I need to give a try. We can probably replace it with a counterspell or a tutor.
- Grave Pact: this one is not always easy to cast but this effect garanties we can keep using Varina ability. Our opponents won't want to loose their board by blocking a bunch of 1/1 and 2/2.
- Zombie Master: maybe one of the few lord I'm happy to play. Amazing with Urborg and keep Varina digging. Players often play black.
- Dreadmalkin: keeps the curve low. Enters untapped so you can better use it with Springleaf drum and Cryptbreaker.
- Swords to plowshare: I often found myself in situation where I absolutely remove an annoying creature at cheap cost. I have room to include this and I see no downside to this card.
- Cyclonic Rift: I found this better than Winds of Abandon. Instant speed is more flexible and you can get ride of quite anything.
- Withered Wretch: often I want to remove a critical card from a opponent graveyard. Plus, the 1 mana zombies slots are already full.
- Tidehollow sculler: seeing opponent hand is a huge advantage. Plus, you can permanently exile a card thanks to ours sac outletls (and like Withered Wretch, 1 mana zombies slots are full).
- Mox Diamond: the deck can easily afford to discard a land for this, given the fact we run Land Tax, Tithe and Crucible of Worlds.

Some cards I add really bad feeling each time I drew them:

- Cosmic intervention: never I wanted to keep 4 mana up. Even when foretold it does not worth the cost for me. Problem is you can't loop this as much as you want. The niche play you can do with fetchland is... too niche !
- Dread return: I never encountered a situation where I wanted to use it. The cost is too much for what it does. A mass reanimation can takes that slot.

Card I will maybe put back in at some point:

- Dictate of Erebos: flashing this is so powerful but 5 mana is quite big. For now grave pact does the job perfectly.
- Nantuko Husk: maybe if I feel the need for one more sac outlet. Espcialy since I play Grave Pact.

Cosmic Intervention has been a fine card for me. Though I also play Rise of the Dread Marn and only ever play them from the foretell zone. Both help when you have backup for potential boardwipes of which there are many in my meta. Also my deck is a good mix of spot removal and boardwipes, so both cards work for me if I wipe and then get to quickly rebuild again.

I do prefer Phyrexian Ghoul though that might be because it is now a phyrexian. If you aren't running more the just Grave Pact then I don't think you need to add more free sac outlets. It also depends if that is a play pattern you like to play and your opponents after the first few times don't start bodying you immediately.

I agree with you on Withered Wretch having old school Scavenging Ooze as a zombie is great and being able to remove potential threats when mass reanimating helps destroy what our opponents might hope to get back.

[Reya]

Well, to argue for Cosmic Intervention, it can save one of our amazing enchantment like Kindred Discovery, Tombstone Stairwell or Grave Pact. Or even save a key piece like an altar. Foretold this after a Bane of Progress would be an amazing situation. But my feeling with the card has always been bad. It's too much mana too hold back. Esper zombies often lacks of mana.