Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

If you're ditching all the graveyard synergies (keep in mind Leyline and RiP turn off death triggers, too), what are you benefiting from with Varina ajd zombies? I feel like Raffine plays in a similar vein (turn attacking bodies into looting) while presenting more value on the field.

I think you can keep dies triggers maybe, but not require things to be looped to be good. And then you can easily play through RIP, since they aren't a cornerstone feature.

Here's what I hate about Raffine -- Raffine's trigger is one target. You can remove a creature and totally stuff it. And it doesn't gain life.

Raffine also doesn't fuel himself; so you can't raffine, then activate 3 times and start looting 4 / gaining 4.

I guess, in general, resiliency and lifegain? And the option to do Skullclamp not-quite-infinite combos with Varina.

[yeti1069]

If you're ditching all the graveyard synergies (keep in mind Leyline and RiP turn off death triggers, too), what are you benefiting from with Varina ajd zombies? I feel like Raffine plays in a similar vein (turn attacking bodies into looting) while presenting more value on the field.

I think you can keep dies triggers maybe, but not require things to be looped to be good. And then you can easily play through RIP, since they aren't a cornerstone feature.

Here's what I hate about Raffine -- Raffine's trigger is one target. You can remove a creature and totally stuff it. And it doesn't gain life.

Raffine also doesn't fuel himself; so you can't raffine, then activate 3 times and start looting 4 / gaining 4.

I guess, in general, resiliency and lifegain? And the option to do Skullclamp not-quite-infinite combos with Varina.

Are you facing a lot of graveyard hate in the form of things like RiP and Leyline? If you are, then all the death triggers are turned off (Clamp, Headless Rider, Augur, etc...). If you're not, but just wanting to power down a bit, I think leaning a little more into tribal, replacing the mass reanimation and tutors (maybe excluding Sidisi) with some spot recursion and the bigger draw stuff you were mentioning could be a direction for the deck. Without the efficient combos or mass reanimates, I think you kinda need some of the tribal support. Dawn of the Dead is a flavorful, slow recursion piece (you'd generally want to have a sac outlet on hand) that allows you some value out of the yard without being overwhelming. Noxious Ghoul and other one-sided wipes are what I'd be looking at if you're not planning to play out of the yard too much.

[pzbw7z]

Thought experiment:

My Varina deck is mostly outpowering my meta because the combos are so efficient. I started going to a new store and they just don't pack enough interaction to stop it. Getting bogged once is not usually enough to stop me.

I was debating retooling Varina to make her a trap deck--just not caring even at all about graveyard hate, just drawing cards off attacking with zombies. Stuff like Alhammarret's Archive, Teferi's Ageless Insight, Coastal Piracy Bident of Thassa etc etc. Using the bin only to make zombies with Varina, so Training Grounds and Heartstone maybe.
. . .
Anyone done any serious thinking on this front?

Some of the pods I play in cannot hang with my Varina at all and I have considered de-tuning it. Other pods seem to be able to crush Varina like a bug but sometimes fail to do so before I slip in a combo dagger.

Before adding Haakon and Buried Alive, I won with mass reanimation - when I won at all. If I were going to de-tune, I'd probably remove a few bits such as those two just mentioned and focus on winning with reanimation or with things such as Tombstone Stairwell.

Zombies can do many things, some things reasonable well, but playing Varina and ignoring the graveyard doesn't appeal to me.

[Rframpt]

Going a more reanimator route has been very successful for me and the Pod I run in. Varina is a menace sure but there are so many different ways I can win with the deck that my friends sometimes have a hard time figuring out what I am up to. One thing that has helped me is that I usually go with a different mode of winning most time I play the deck. Sometimes that is a simple beatdown, sometimes it is a combo win, sometimes it is a control of the board with hard removal/lockdown with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, Phyrexian Tower & Unholy Grotto.

[pzbw7z]

Going a more reanimator route has been very successful for me and the Pod I run in. Varina is a menace sure but there are so many different ways I can win with the deck that my friends sometimes have a hard time figuring out what I am up to. One thing that has helped me is that I usually go with a different mode of winning most time I play the deck. Sometimes that is a simple beatdown, sometimes it is a combo win, sometimes it is a control of the board with hard removal/lockdown with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, Phyrexian Tower & Unholy Grotto.

In my experience, the beat-down path is successful only after one or more board-wipes and a mass-reanimation spell or equivalent. Certainly it's possible to focus on combat much more than I do - which is hardly at all, but it boils down to the fact that Zombies just aren't that good at beat-down. Even with evasion, other tribes or approaches seem much better at it.

[pokken]

In my experience, the beat-down path is successful only after one or more board-wipes and a mass-reanimation spell or equivalent. Certainly it's possible to focus on combat much more than I do - which is hardly at all, but it boils down to the fact that Zombies just aren't that good at beat-down. Even with evasion, other tribes or approaches seem much better at it.

Not that many tribes have a commander who can read "dig 6 gain 6" while attacking though, while in the disruptive colors of esper. being able to turn Teferi's Ageless Insight into "dig 12" with 6 zombies is fairly unique for tribal decks.

I think zombies offer something somewhat unique in the realm of beatdown tribe. There're also some very powerful lords (+2/+1 for 4 is exceptional, particularly with cost reduction as well).

Gonna noodle on it a bit and see what I can put together I think

[toctheyounger]

I think it's a testament to Varina's design that she can manage so many strategies well. In many ways, there's a valid reason for doing any of the things we might want to with the undead.

...I thought that last sentence through, read it back and realised how it sounded....and decided to stick with it.

I think beatdown is pretty relevant, at a casual-mid level. There's a density of lords here and go wide cards that can totally support combat. I think you lose speed, but at that level you care less about that. Even then, there's neat things you can do like Reconnaissance to make combat favorable.

I personally miss the wheel subtheme a bit. Archfiend of Ifnir was the best non-zombie you could ask for. I don't think the density of cards to support that is quite there in Esper, but it sure was fun. I think you're missing just a couple of payoffs, especially on-tribe, and worthwhile, affordable wheel effects, either universal or individual.

I think at this point if I were going to retool the deck I'd want to move specifically into a more dedicated reanimator build. That theme is there, with what I've got, but I think I'd more go single target, focusing on reanimation chains a la Rot Hulk and that sort of thing.

(looked up the price of it yesterday and jesus it's like 50 NZD)

I also think the comparison to Raffine is a little weird. Raffine seems more like a control deck than anything else. I like the card a lot, but I don't think it would translate over well if, all other things being equal and tribe aside, you just switched out Varina for Raffine. If anything I think the best comparison to Varina is Tymna the Weaver. Varina comes off worse in that exchange frankly, but then most commanders do. Even in the colors being a partner and having access to Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator or Sakashima of a Thousand Faces from the command zone is extraordinarily good.

[yeti1069]

I never adopted the all-in combo approach here, and actually took out some of the combo pieces I had/reduced tutors.

For many of my games, the win comes from a variety of strategies--for instance, I may drop one player with beatdown, then the other two with aristocrat triggers off of a mass reanimate. I think smaller instances of reanimation can be strong here without being as overwhelming as the mass versions. Rot Hulk falls in between.

As for Raffine it looks to me like an almost straight comparison: drop commander, swing with X creatures, loot X cards. You trade life gain for a potential buff of X +1/+1 counters on one of your attacking creatures. It's a little easier to disrupt in once sense, by removing the creature you target with Raffine, but harder in the sense that Varina is easier to remove. Raffine can be a real commander damage threat, but doesn't have the option of making bodies out of your own yard for 2 mana a pop. Raffine is a little more open in that it doesn't care about creature type. I've seen Raffine built kind of like Varina or Edric with lots of low-mana attackers for triggers, and I've seen it built like Varina as a reanimator engine of sorts (less focus on the mass reanimates, since it doesn't have the tribal cohesion). That said, if all you did was swap commanders, I feel like the deck would play very similarly.

[pzbw7z]

Man, an uncommon tutor just seems hard to pass up, but the inability to get artifacts just seems to big a downside to play Ringsight, doesn't it?

[pokken]

Man, an uncommon tutor just seems hard to pass up, but the inability to get artifacts just seems to big a downside to play Ringsight, doesn't it?

I don't think I would run it because if they kill Varina while it's on the stack it fizzles. Yuck. Although I guess the ring tempting makes something else legendary right? So maybe not so bad.

Probably better than Grim Tutor most of the time.

Not getting lands is more what I would worry about.

[pzbw7z]

Man, an uncommon tutor just seems hard to pass up, but the inability to get artifacts just seems to big a downside to play Ringsight, doesn't it?

I don't think I would run it because if they kill Varina while it's on the stack it fizzles. Yuck. Although I guess the ring tempting makes something else legendary right? So maybe not so bad.

Probably better than Grim Tutor most of the time.

Not getting lands is more what I would worry about.

The ring-tempting thing does make your ring-bearer legendary.

Phyrexian Altar is my most common tutor target in this deck. I recall tutoring for a land not too long ago playing Prosper and then Recouping the tutor to tutor for another! I don't recall ever using a tutor for a land in Varina but I don't play the good tutors here, just jank like Beseech the Queen, Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Grim Tutor.

[plaganegra]

Horn of the mark seems pretty well suited in low to the ground, creature-dense Varina builds that prioritize attacking and triggering Varina.

Makes it easier to choose what to keep and what to discard, low mana value colorless artifact is easy to cast very early, very synergistic with what the deck is already trying to do.

Dig 5 is unlikely to whiff, much much better than heralds horn type stuff.

[toctheyounger]

Horn of the mark seems pretty well suited in low to the ground, creature-dense Varina builds that prioritize attacking and triggering Varina.

Makes it easier to choose what to keep and what to discard, low mana value colorless artifact is easy to cast very early, very synergistic with what the deck is already trying to do.

Dig 5 is unlikely to whiff, much much better than heralds horn type stuff.

Yeah, this isn't terrible. At 2 I like it quite a lot.

One of the biggest issues I have with Varina is keeping enough of a grip to maximise her attack trigger; once you get to hellbent or close to it, the trigger is only filling your yard, and while that's great for mass reanimate it's great for literally nothing else. So being able to pick up a critter every turn isn't terrible by any stretch.

[pokken]

I don't like that it doesn't help you hit land drops and that's most of what I want to do with my 1-2 mana spells that are not zombies...because zombies help you hit your land drops too.

I would play another functional copy of Lazotep Reaver a thousand times before I'd play this card.

And you should probably play Bident of Thassa or Coastal Piracy first.

The cards I play over this effect are things like Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm and Ponder. I could not see any world in which I cut those for this.

[Arebennian]

Raise the Palisade
Seems good. No?

[pokken]

Raise the Palisade
Seems good. No?

If you want another pseudo-wipe beyond Winds of Abandon and Living Death (and maybe Cyclonic Rift) I think it's reasonable to consider.

But 5 mana and sorcery speed is iffy. If it were instant, I think it's a slam dunk since you could use it to protect your board too (so more flexible Evacuation).

[pokken]

sauron's ransom seems not too bad. Casting before Varina to hit lands is nice. Filling the yard late is also nice.

[devilcatz]

Queza, Augur of Agonies

I was arranging my cards and saw this. Won't it be nice to have it as a zombie?

[yeti1069]

Raise the Palisade
Seems good. No?

If you want another pseudo-wipe beyond Winds of Abandon and Living Death (and maybe Cyclonic Rift) I think it's reasonable to consider.

But 5 mana and sorcery speed is iffy. If it were instant, I think it's a slam dunk since you could use it to protect your board too (so more flexible Evacuation).

I'd consider it over Winds, I think. It's a mana cheaper and doesn't have the downside of giving your opponents a ton of land (in the case you aren't winning that turn). It does have the downside of giving players their ETBs back, but I think it may be worth looking at. Also, I think most decks are more than , right?

[devilcatz]

ETB - matters a lot at times. Not so safe

Exile - can't even recur them. Prob better that way.
Winds can also be used as a single target removal. More flexible at times when the mana pool is low.

[plaganegra]

I don't like that it doesn't help you hit land drops and that's most of what I want to do with my 1-2 mana spells that are not zombies...because zombies help you hit your land drops too.

I would play another functional copy of Lazotep Reaver a thousand times before I'd play this card.

And you should probably play Bident of Thassa or Coastal Piracy first.

The cards I play over this effect are things like Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm and Ponder. I could not see any world in which I cut those for this.

I can say I disagree with almost all of this, especially the 4cmc enchantments with UU in their mana costs. The only part I think makes sense to me is lazotep reaver as an example - it's incredibly efficient. I don't think I would remove any incredibly efficient zombie for this new artifact. I would remove a lot of things I see in many lists in favor of horn of the mark, however. It really depends on a lot of factors. This is very playable and can surely be an asset in many Varina decks. That doesn't make it an optimal inclusion for everyone.

[plaganegra]

sauron's ransom seems not too bad. Casting before Varina to hit lands is nice. Filling the yard late is also nice.

This card seems very good to me, I concur! interesting FoF variant.

[pokken]

I can say I disagree with almost all of this, especially the 4cmc enchantments with UU in their mana costs. The only part I think makes sense to me is lazotep reaver as an example - it's incredibly efficient. I don't think I would remove any incredibly efficient zombie for this new artifact. I would remove a lot of things I see in many lists in favor of horn of the mark, however. It really depends on a lot of factors. This is very playable and can surely be an asset in many Varina decks. That doesn't make it an optimal inclusion for everyone.

Digging five for a creature doesn't really solve that many problems. Even in decks with better creatures the average Varina creature is pretty crappy on its own.

Ponder will outperform that horn almost always. Because it fixes opening hands and finds solutions. It's a great top deck.

Horn is good on curve with a good hand and a terrible top deck. Top/ponder are great any time and fix bad hands.

Think about bad scenarios not just good. If you haven't tried top specifically in Varina please try it lol. Spin top crack fetch bash with Varina is just a mammoth amount of virtual card advantage.

I'm not saying horn is unplayable but at the power level most of
Us are running at its bad.

[yeti1069]

Horn seems interesting, but the way I see it is this:
1) If we have 0 or 1 creature on board, it does nothing
2) If we have less than 2 creatures on board we want to attack with, it does nothing
3) If we have 2-3 creatures on board that we can attack with, it has a decent chance of drawing us a creature
4) If we have 4-5 creatures on board that we can attack with, it has a decent chance of drawing us 2 creatures
5) If we have 6+ creatures on board that we can attack with, it has a decent chance of drawing us 3 creatures

Now the issue I have is, scenario 3 isn't all that exciting--if we just want to draw +1 cards/turn, there are better/more reliable options available. It's really when we get to attacking 2 players that this starts to shine, and while we DO need cards in hand, I don't know that I want to invest a deck slot on a card that doesn't do anything until we have 4+ attackers, and 2+ opponents we want to attack.

I will disagree somewhat with @pokken that it's a terrible topdeck--it can be ok if you have 2 attackers, as it basically replaces itself at that point. If you don't have a board, yeah, it's bad, but that's true of a lot of cards.

[yeti1069]

The cards I play over this effect are things like Sensei's Divining Top,

I don't see the value of Top here most of the time. If you have Varina out and a couple attackers, you're basically seeing the cards you're looking at with top anyway. If you don't have any kind of board/no Varina for some reason, it can help you dig a little, but any of the 1 mana draw spells with upside (scry, surveil, shuffle) do the same. How often are you spending mana to spin the Top?