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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

There has not been much W6 debate here.
I will start a thread and see if anyone bites.
My thoughts, they need more answers for walkers- true for all mtg. But w6 would have been fine with the text 'if you control an island sacrifice w6'.
The issue with good non blue cards is that they pair with... good blue cards, so they need a way to stop it.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

The issue with everything in legacy is the sacred cow of cantrips.

There isn't a format where you should be allowed to play 8 dig-3 cantrips, 4 of which are brainstorm. Legacy has been toxic its entire lifetime because of the absurd filtering of blue decks.

Hell, not even vintage has the card selection of legacy.
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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

But given they won't change that, people apparently like it, how else can good non blue stuff get excluded from the next pile?

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Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

Wrenn and Six definitely had to be banned for the same reason Deathrite Shaman did. It was powerful in blue lists AND in nonblue lists. Basically every deck except for non-value-midrange combo decks and Miracles had to pack it, and it was one of the best checks to itself. When Delver, UBx Control, and non-blue Midrange decks are all packing a card, it's too centralizing.

Cantrips are certainly a centralizing force in Legacy, but I don't think they're as big of a problem as pokken seems to. There are certainly a lot of powerful non-blue decks - Eldrazi, Red Prison, Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, Lands, RB Reanimator, and Turbo Depths are all high tier decks, with decks like Burn, Elves, Goblins, Maverick, Dredge, Bomberman, Painted Stone, and others rounding out the lower tiers.

I think the biggest reason Wrenn and Six had to go is that they forced some prominent non-blue decks like Death and Taxes, Elves, and Hogaak Depths out of the format with its pinging ability, while also exerting a downwards pressure on Sol Land-Chalice decks through Wasteland recursion. With Wrenn and Six gone, expect a lot of these decks to spring back and eat up meta share. A return of Chalices plus the loss of W6 should be enough to unseat RUG Delver from tier 0 and diversify the format significantly.

As far as "Legacy has better cantrips than Vintage", that doesn't really hold up. Sure, Legacy gets to play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, but Vintage gets to run 4 Preordain (about as good as Ponder) alongside a full bevy of restricted cantrips including Brainstorm, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Ancestral Recall, Gush, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Though Time.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I do not think cantrips are an issue, but the blue engine as a whole needs to be stopped from sucking up all the pushed walkers, the only way to do that is unsubtle, by making them either keel over if you have an island or have a drawback- maybe a self imposed t3eri clause, or a rule of law on your own side. The other half of the card would have to be super pushed though, so in the end the next time a w6 comes along I say just put a sac clause on it if you tap for blue.

To be fair a new chains not on a stick would be great in enchantment form- I don't have a problem with Narset- it hurts on blue, and forces blue to run Narset for other blue decks, meaning they have one fewer Council's Judgement or K Command etc. Ashiok too hurts that engine, by nerfing the fetch/brainstorm tech at least. The reason why xerox players hate Narset the game can come down to wgo draws it, but it sucks gainst most non xerox players.
In some respects it is reasonable for Legacy.
I do want for non blue decks to have more hosers at 2cc and one cc for the cantrip engine beyond these though. Sadly a Leyline of chains type effects will push the critical mass of Leylines higher. Even then most Chains are played in the board, and chains on sticks need hexproof to be worth playing. D n T does not even run Spirit OTL. The issue with the xerox engine is it is either stopped via Chalice n Chains, or it is working. Very binary.. Subtly nerfing it simply fails, trinisphere does work but is normally backed up by stuff that puts the cantrip engine back to stopped.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

We need a mana chains for planeswalkers.

In a more balanced world all planeswalkers would have cumulative upkeep costs. Loyalty is never free!

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I am overall very happy with the current state of Legacy now that Wrenn got banned but there is 1 more card I would like to see gone. Chancellor of the Annex. Reanimator is very consistent and this card just creates too many non-games. But other than that I am really enjoying the format.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Chancellor is a pain, but actually not a problem. There are a lot of "non games"- turn 2 stormed does not feel nice either, nor dredged in a couple of turns. It is just Legacy. If you want to hit the deck, hit entomb, not chancellor, or Grissy-B.

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