Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[samanater456]

Do you fine folks play on magic online with Zedruu?

[tstorm823]

Do you fine folks play on magic online with Zedruu?

I personally do not. A long time ago, I did some amount of Cockatrice Zedruu, but these days its all paper.

[samanater456]

Unfortunate. I was hoping to see some replays of other piloting our lord and savior

[tstorm823]

Greatest of All Time: Current Draft

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Zedruu the Greathearted

Lands (33)

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Izzet Boilerworks

1 Boros Garrison

1 Cascade Bluffs

1 Mystic Gate

1 Rugged Prairie

1 Skycloud Expanse

1 Deserted Beach

1 Stormcarved Coast

1 Temple of Enlightenment

1 Temple of Epiphany

1 Celestial Colonnade

1 Wandering Fumarole

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Raugrin Triome

1 Command Tower

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Forsaken City

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Magosi, the Waterveil

1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 The Mycosynth Gardens

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Island

2 Mountain

2 Plains

Creatures (17)

1 Kami of the Crescent Moon

1 Lore Drakkis

1 Rootha, Mercurial Artist

1 Vedalken Plotter

1 Walking Archive

1 Cadric, Soul Kindler

1 Crystalline Crawler

1 Displacer Kitten

1 Golden Guardian

1 Sakashima the Impostor

1 Swans of Bryn Argoll

1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper

1 Precursor Golem

1 Inferno Titan

1 Sphinx of the Second Sun

Artifacts (15)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Arcane Signet

1 Azorius Signet

1 Azor's Gateway

1 Howling Mine

1 Izzet Signet

1 Pentad Prism

1 Cursed Mirror

1 Relic of Legends

1 Font of Mythos

1 Vedalken Orrery

1 Unbender Tine

1 Gilded Lotus

1 Mirror of Fate

1 Knowledge Pool

Enchantments (11)

1 Detention Sphere

1 Dictate of Kruphix

1 Jeskai Ascendancy

1 Leyline of Anticipation

1 March of the Machines

1 Opalescence

1 Pandemonium

1 Possibility Storm

1 Barren Glory

1 Mind Over Matter

1 Eye of the Storm

Instants (12)

1 Angel's Grace

1 Firestorm

1 Stifle

1 Electrodominance

1 Leave // Chance

1 Narset's Reversal

1 Arcbond

1 Chance for Glory

1 Jeskai Charm

1 Mirrorweave

1 Turnabout

1 Vanish Into Memory

Sorceries (9)

1 Shatterskull Smashing

1 Catch // Release

1 Bonus Round

1 Role Reversal

1 Replication Technique

1 Echo of Eons

1 Mind's Desire

1 Sea Gate Restoration

1 Temporal Cascade

Planeswalkers (2)

1 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer

1 Venser, the Sojourner

Approximate Total Cost:

I did my testing trick where I see a card I like and just slot it in over Barren Glory for a while, and it feels like that was a mistake, because when I discovered that I enjoyed playing with Cadric, Soul Kindler, I then had to find an actual cut to include him, which I suffered over for weeks.

First, what Cadric adds: as previously discussed, it adds a couple combo options with Venser, Shaper Savant and Rootha, Mercurial Artist. It's a way to copy planeswalkers, and as someone once said here, even just 2 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer can get out of hand pretty fast. Late in the game, you can hit really big mana turns with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun (only if flipped the Golden Guardian way) since Cadric can copy any legendary permanent. He lets Saheeli or Replication Technique make token legends exist even without the etb trigger. With Displacer Kitten and Sakashima the Impostor you don't necessarily go infinite, but you likely go exponential, which is good enough. And finally, Cadric is formatted similarly to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in that the sacrifice is tied to you, not the creature, so donating a copy allows it to live past the end of turn. Something like Zedruu, Cadric, Kami of the Crescent Moon paying the one for a clone, then donating the clone, and now there's 3 more cards drawn a turn. Sphinx of the Second Sun is also somewhat of a synergy there as well, as a way to take advantage of multiple Zedruus before the turn ends.

It does not let you Mirrorweave legendary creatures though.

The cut I made ended up being Rest in Peace. RIP only had one synergy other than being donated, and that's with Mirror of Fate, and I have so many options for multiple Mirrors these days (Replication Technique, The Mycosynth Gardens, Cavalier of Dawn, Echo of Eons, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, clones with March of the Machines, probably something else I'm not thinking of) that I don't lose too much there. The biggest hit here is just RIP as a card is a super powerful interactive element, but something had to go, and this was the least puzzle-piecy card available (other than cutting a land or signet, which would be deeply irresponsible). Or at least that is how I'm rationalizing it.

[Sefir]

Do you fine folks play on magic online with Zedruu?

I had a game on camera a few years back. I talked about it a little bit here on page 15 if I remember correctly (EDIT: I do). Hope you like it, here is the link.


Mind you, Zedruu is not the best deck to play online. Exchanging control of permanents or making chaos situations with things like Eye of the Storm or Knowledge Pool, or even something smaller like Share the Spoils can be hard on camera. I generally play a lot both irl and spelltable, so my own list was adapted accordingly.

The cut I made ended up being Rest in Peace. RIP only had one synergy other than being donated, and that's with Mirror of Fate, and I have so many options for multiple Mirrors these days (Replication Technique, The Mycosynth Gardens, Cavalier of Dawn, Echo of Eons, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, clones with March of the Machines, probably something else I'm not thinking of) that I don't lose too much there. The biggest hit here is just RIP as a card is a super powerful interactive element, but something had to go, and this was the least puzzle-piecy card available (other than cutting a land or signet, which would be deeply irresponsible). Or at least that is how I'm rationalizing it.

A brave choice. With Time Spiral already cut, you are left with just Echo of Eons and Temporal Cascade as the only gy hate cards in the dack, but these are kinda soft and not repeatable ways to do so (apart from obvious recursion shenanigans). I am not saying that RiP was the best choice for that since you have many gy shenanigans yourself now, but there are probably many other gy hate cards available that you can use to cover that, like f.e. a rock for Honored Heirloom or a land for Scavenger Grounds. My personal preference for gy hate these days though is Lion Sash, that has the usual combo with Mirror and also helps eating targeted stuff from my own gy, leaving only what I specifically need for my Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch combos.

[tstorm823]

A brave choice. With Time Spiral already cut, you are left with just Echo of Eons and Temporal Cascade as the only gy hate cards in the dack, but these are kinda soft and not repeatable ways to do so (apart from obvious recursion shenanigans). I am not saying that RiP was the best choice for that since you have many gy shenanigans yourself now, but there are probably many other gy hate cards available that you can use to cover that, like f.e. a rock for Honored Heirloom or a land for Scavenger Grounds. My personal preference for gy hate these days though is Lion Sash, that has the usual combo with Mirror and also helps eating targeted stuff from my own gy, leaving only what I specifically need for my Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch combos.

I've been intrigued by Unlicensed Hearse as graveyard hate that synergizes with a variety of cards, to add one to your list of graveyard hate options.

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

I'm going to try out Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse instead of Leyline of Anticipation / vedalken orrery, especially as I've taken you're lead and added in Cadric, Soul Kindler, flipping the token now works with the new rules change too (all though I can't figure out a way to avoid the sacrifice clause).

The backside is nutty with any amount of howling mine effects.

7 total mana and 2 life seems like a steep increase over a card that could potentially come in for free. And my current build only runs 8 non-god enchantments. However, I've noticed turn-0 leyline paints a huge target for early aggro. And playing 4-mana enchantments / artifacts that in themselves do nothing isn't really carrying the same weight it did a few years ago.

Will report back.

[Sefir]

I'm going to try out Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse instead of Leyline of Anticipation / vedalken orrery, especially as I've taken you're lead and added in Cadric, Soul Kindler, flipping the token now works with the new rules change too (all though I can't figure out a way to avoid the sacrifice clause).

The backside is nutty with any amount of howling mine effects.

7 total mana and 2 life seems like a steep increase over a card that could potentially come in for free. And my current build only runs 8 non-god enchantments. However, I've noticed turn-0 leyline paints a huge target for early aggro. And playing 4-mana enchantments / artifacts that in themselves do nothing isn't really carrying the same weight it did a few years ago.

It's been some time since I replaced Vedalken Orrery with Tidal Barracuda and in general I am very happy with the fish.

[Tentaclemobster]

Looking into building zedruu but my issue is my meta is very high power (not cedh but def about as high as casual goes) . Will something like this be able to keep up in a reasonable way? Is there a more optimized way to do zedruu? I've been having trouble finding much that's not this thread. I'm down for smaller combos and dirty tricks like nine lives but it seems like a lot of the people really invested in zedruu don't run them?

[tstorm823]

Looking into building zedruu but my issue is my meta is very high power (not cedh but def about as high as casual goes) . Will something like this be able to keep up in a reasonable way? Is there a more optimized way to do zedruu? I've been having trouble finding much that's not this thread. I'm down for smaller combos and dirty tricks like nine lives but it seems like a lot of the people really invested in zedruu don't run them?

The "bad presents" form of Zedruu has 3 things working against it:
1) If it wins, it's often in a stax-y sort of way, which is rarely what people imagine when they start with Zedruu.
2) It scales poorly to multiplayer, you're typically only gonna get to Nine Lives one opponent if you do.
3) It's in many ways a "win-more" strategy. If you've positioned yourself to have Zedruu in play and donate something away and not have either removed, the draw engine part of Zedruu puts you ahead already. It honestly might even be win less, as in a 4-player game, drawing an extra card every turn is probably a stronger strategy than eliminating one opponent and gaining no resources from it.

You could certainly try to play this against stronger decks, I definitely have myself, but I wouldn't expect to win an exceptional amount. Just, when you do get to win, it'll hopefully be in exceptional ways. If you want a more optimized zedruu, the way to go is to build as a control deck with probably a combo finish and maybe one or two detrimental donations if that's your desired style. The most powerful and efficient thing Zedruu can do, in my experience, is to play control cards like Rest in Peace or Detention Sphere and then turn them into personal card draw engines. From my list, the best plan for being competitive would probably be cutting things like Knowledge Pool out and adding in a couple board wipes and counterspells, policing the table until you draw into a combo finish.

And no matter how you choose to play Zedruu, Pentad Prism belongs in any and every build. It's color fixing acceleration that helps pay to donate itself, and generally gets the Zedruu draw engine going faster than anything else around.

[Sefir]

Looking into building zedruu but my issue is my meta is very high power (not cedh but def about as high as casual goes) . Will something like this be able to keep up in a reasonable way? Is there a more optimized way to do zedruu? I've been having trouble finding much that's not this thread. I'm down for smaller combos and dirty tricks like nine lives but it seems like a lot of the people really invested in zedruu don't run them?

It is also worth noting that the deck is full of easy-to-win combo pieces, but purposefully, the majority of the community here wants to avoid easier than 4-card combos. You dont have to restrict yourself if you dont want to. And I am not talking about the usual cEDH stuff in the decks colors. Nothing like Underworld Breach or Palinchron stuff or Thoracle or whatever. I am talking about cards that were fully used in this deck, just not in combination with each other to avoid overpowering plays. MOM with Temple Bell or Kwain, Itinerant Meddler? Sure. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker with Lore Drakkis? Why not? Sudden Substitution with Chance for Glory or something like Intervention Pact to kill just one opponent? Possible as well. There are many other powerful tools available as well, like Displacer Kitten, Turnabout, etc that I am sure they can lead to easy combos.

Another restriction many people here also have, is the minimal use (or total absence) of tutors. You dont have to follow that either.

In any case, the general advice tstorm gave about abandoning all chaos elements and go for more counters and protecting your main CA engine (aka Zedruu), is probably the correct one. Easy to gift things or things that will give Zedruu multiple draws, like Pentad Prism, Bucknard's Everfull Purse Gilded Drake and Paradox Haze will be very important.

[Eponymous]

So not a suggestion per se, but something I wanted to call attention to
So I've been looking to build a new 4 card combo deck with Volrath, the Shapestealer, and an interaction that really stuck out was how he interacts with "usable once per turn abilities" the ruling is "If Volrath copies a creature with an ability that can be activated only once each turn (such as Chainer, Nightmare Adept), you can activate that ability once. If Volrath then becomes a copy of that same creature, you can activate that ability another time, and so on."

So my initial thought process, is that if I can turn a planeswalker into a creature, I can use as many loyalty abilities as my little heart desires, by using a plus ability, copying again, using another ability, etc until I can ultimate, as long as I can pay the 1 for each ability.

Well, Shameless Charlatan doesn't have the ruling specifically listed, but I can't think of any reason this wouldn't work the same way, it could be an incredibly fun piece for anyone running ways to turn non-artifacts into an artifact creatures (such as Liquimetal Torque+March)

[tstorm823]

So not a suggestion per se, but something I wanted to call attention to
So I've been looking to build a new 4 card combo deck with Volrath, the Shapestealer, and an interaction that really stuck out was how he interacts with "usable once per turn abilities" the ruling is "If Volrath copies a creature with an ability that can be activated only once each turn (such as Chainer, Nightmare Adept), you can activate that ability once. If Volrath then becomes a copy of that same creature, you can activate that ability another time, and so on."

So my initial thought process, is that if I can turn a planeswalker into a creature, I can use as many loyalty abilities as my little heart desires, by using a plus ability, copying again, using another ability, etc until I can ultimate, as long as I can pay the 1 for each ability.

Well, Shameless Charlatan doesn't have the ruling specifically listed, but I can't think of any reason this wouldn't work the same way, it could be an incredibly fun piece for anyone running ways to turn non-artifacts into an artifact creatures (such as Liquimetal Torque+March)

I don't believe this works with planeswalker abilities. Loyalty abilities don't have an "activate once per turn" rider, rather the rules of the game themselves say you can activate a loyalty ability "if no player has previously activated a loyalty
ability of that permanent that turn". And while Volrath creates a new instance of each of the abilities, it remains the same permanent.

There are still a couple things with Volrath that let you repeatedly untap mana this way, so there's definitely still really wonky 4-card combo grounds there somewhere.

[Eponymous]

I don't believe this works with planeswalker abilities. Loyalty abilities don't have an "activate once per turn" rider, rather the rules of the game themselves say you can activate a loyalty ability "if no player has previously activated a loyalty
ability of that permanent that turn". And while Volrath creates a new instance of each of the abilities, it remains the same permanent.

There are still a couple things with Volrath that let you repeatedly untap mana this way, so there's definitely still really wonky 4-card combo grounds there somewhere.

Damn you are absolutely right. Yea I'm pretty confident Volrath has some wonky stuff to do, especially when you get into stuff like Scute Swarm, but I was hoping I found a slick potential tool for here too hahaha

[tstorm823]

So, the front post of this has just been updated for the first time in a couple years. It's only the 3rd full update since the move to Nexus, and here we are on page 26 of the thread. Fun coincidence, 26 is also the number of card changes from the last time I updated until now, which is crazy. Over 1/4 of the deck has been changed since I last fixed the post up. There's not any surprises in there, I think I went with a list either identical to the one on this page or off by a land or two.

I looked at the list to try and figure out how it could change that much and still feel so much like the same deck as it ever was, of the 26 additions, 13 are cards I had played before the version I was overwriting, so half this update is actually going back to old loves. Of the 13 "new" cards, a bunch are minor changes to the mana base. The cards that are actually making a new splash are the things we've all been talking about:

Lore Drakkis
Rootha, Mercurial Artist
Cadric, Soul Kindler
Displacer Kitten
Relic of Legends
Sphinx of the Second Sun

And the two needed alterations to avoid 3-card combos:

Chance for Glory
Echo of Eons

Setting aside the possibility that I'm missing things that are too degenerate and need toned down, I'm really liking where this is right now. Looking at the list of alternatives I put at the bottom of the thread, I think if I need to cut anything, the 3 cards waiting to fill the hole would be Rest in Peace, Chaos Warp, and Sudden Substitution. Just good interactive cards that synergize with and/or outright combo with what is already in the deck.

[Sefir]

Congratz on the update @tstorm823. You included almost everything. I find it very interesting that, nowdays, most combos are taking place regarding Rootha instead of the usual culprit aka MOM.

Looking at the list of alternatives I put at the bottom of the thread, I think if I need to cut anything, the 3 cards waiting to fill the hole would be Rest in Peace, Chaos Warp, and Sudden Substitution. Just good interactive cards that synergize with and/or outright combo with what is already in the deck.

I would never suggest Sudden Substitution (an awsome card in general) to anyone playing things like Chance for Glory.

[tstorm823]

I would never suggest Sudden Substitution (an awsome card in general) to anyone playing things like Chance for Glory.

You know, that is fair.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I was looking into Eye of the Storm rulings involving split-second. Multiple people have asked me if they can "protect" their Eye of the Storm spells by casting a split-second spell first (which would then resolve last). Unfortunately, I don't believe this works.

608.2g If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, they may activate mana abilities before taking that action. If an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, they do so by following the steps in rules 601.2a–i, except no player receives priority after it's cast. That spell becomes the topmost object on the stack, and the currently resolving spell or ability continues to resolve, which may include casting other spells this way. No other spells can normally be cast and no other abilities can normally be activated during resolution.

If you trigger Eye of the Storm and cast a split-second card first, you are prevented from casting any other spells in the storm. This also means it's impossible to cast more than one split-second spell out of Eye of the Storm. Can anyone confirm this ruling?

e.g., if you have a stack of spells under Eye of the Storm, including Angel's Grace, and your opponent is waiting to cast Mindbreak Trap, then there's no way to protect your spells resolving:

• If you cast the group of spells and then Angel's Grace, Angel's Grace resolves first and your opponent can Mindbreak Trap the rest.
• If you cast Angel's Grace first, then you cannot cast any of the other spells in the storm because of split-second.

[tstorm823]

I was looking into Eye of the Storm rulings involving split-second. Multiple people have asked me if they can "protect" their Eye of the Storm spells by casting a split-second spell first (which would then resolve last). Unfortunately, I don't believe this works.

608.2g If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, they may activate mana abilities before taking that action. If an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, they do so by following the steps in rules 601.2a–i, except no player receives priority after it's cast. That spell becomes the topmost object on the stack, and the currently resolving spell or ability continues to resolve, which may include casting other spells this way. No other spells can normally be cast and no other abilities can normally be activated during resolution.

If you trigger Eye of the Storm and cast a split-second card first, you are prevented from casting any other spells in the storm. This also means it's impossible to cast more than one split-second spell out of Eye of the Storm. Can anyone confirm this ruling?

e.g., if you have a stack of spells under Eye of the Storm, including Angel's Grace, and your opponent is waiting to cast Mindbreak Trap, then there's no way to protect your spells resolving:

• If you cast the group of spells and then Angel's Grace, Angel's Grace resolves first and your opponent can Mindbreak Trap the rest.
• If you cast Angel's Grace first, then you cannot cast any of the other spells in the storm because of split-second.

Everything you are saying matches my understanding of the rules. I have considered this possibility with split second before, and ended up finding the same ruling, that you can't stack the spells with split second underneath. If Eye of the Storm was formatted as copying the spells straight onto the stack instead of casting the copies, it could work that way, but if that was how it worked, I might not even be playing it.

Split second can still matter if you do get into an Eye of the Storm counter war, just by making sure you get to cast everything out before they respond, but it's a relatively minor thing, especially compared to how useful split second is with Knowledge Pool.

[referator]

Hey! long time lurker, I am playing your new list in my pod and it is a bit slow to keep up. Are there any card swaps you would recommend to increase power level?

[tstorm823]

Hey! long time lurker, I am playing your new list in my pod and it is a bit slow to keep up. Are there any card swaps you would recommend to increase power level?

My usual advice is to cut down on the chaotic elements and add more answers in their place, probably counterspells, and then play with a lot of patience.

May I ask in what way you aren't keeping up? There have been times I've adjusted this deck for a group, times I've accepted a lower win rate, and times I've had to look at the other guy and say "if you play 10 extra turn spells in your Maelstrom Wanderer, I'm not gonna be able to make a good game out of it". So there's not really a uniform answer for you depending on how you're getting overpowered. Typically as you approach competitive levels, efficient answers and more efficient combos are what you're looking for, but that may not be the answer you need.

[ihatemaryfisher]

Looking into building zedruu but my issue is my meta is very high power (not cedh but def about as high as casual goes) . Will something like this be able to keep up in a reasonable way? Is there a more optimized way to do zedruu? I've been having trouble finding much that's not this thread. I'm down for smaller combos and dirty tricks like nine lives but it seems like a lot of the people really invested in zedruu don't run them?

Hey! long time lurker, I am playing your new list in my pod and it is a bit slow to keep up. Are there any card swaps you would recommend to increase power level?

I've made several "higher power" versions of this deck. To maintain the central deck theme, I think it's important to keep Howling Moon effects and the wide variety of card combos. Maybe you want to do 3-card combos, but anything more efficient than that really changes the deckstyle. I also think it's not necessary to include tutors. Tutoring for 1 cards at a time is great if your combos involve 2 cards. If you need 3-4 cards in any one of many different combinations, heavier draw in better. The additions I would make are:

• More efficient counterspells/disruption
  Cards like Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Pact of Negation, Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, and An Offer You Can't Refuse, Dovin's Veto allow you to protect your combos against the more-interactive decks you see at higher power levels. It also allows you to keep less mana up on your opponents' turns.
  
  I typically play with more "late" disruption because I find that counterspells require you to respond when threats are cast, rather than when they target you. i.e., letting an opponent play removal is always better than playing it yourself. That's why I prefer things like Intervention Pact and Angel's Grace, that can be held until the last second. But in high-power, combo-heavy games, casting spells is often synonymous with winning the game, so this becomes moot and counterspells are great.
  _
• Cards that complement the deck in powerful ways
  e.g., Smothering Tithe, Narset, Parter of Veils, Consecrated Sphinx, Words of Wind. I don't play these for the same reason I don't play Steel Golem or Transcendence: it incentivizes my opponents to remove other essential parts of my game plan (e.g., Zedruu the Greathearted). In this case, running these jeopardizes my Howling Mine's.
  
  However, in a higher-powered game, these cards often have to make it just one circuit around the table to win you the game, and more-efficient counterspells let you protect them for that brief window. These are also the cards that go nuts when I copy/steal them with Mirrormade or Role Reversal. Other synergistic staples include Teferi, Time Raveler, Dockside Extortionist, Esper Sentinel, etc.

P.S. I haven't run Parallel Thoughts, but I imagine it could function as a more-efficient Mirror of Fate.

[riceisgood]

I would never suggest Sudden Substitution (an awsome card in general) to anyone playing things like Chance for Glory.

You know, that is fair.

Do you mind explaining why? I'm not sure I understand the combo. If you play Chance for Glory, then Sudden Substitution, you would give CfG to your opponent. But they can't take an "extra" turn because it's currently still your turn. So they couldn't lose the game but their creatures still get indestructible.

Thanks for this fantastic thread and keeping it going.

[riceisgood]

Imagine you have Azor's Gateway and Unbender Tine and 20 life. You activate the Gateway for a mana, exile the 5th card, flip it, gain 5 life, and untap it. Tap for 25, untap with Tine, tap for 25 more. 49 net mana, neat! But instead, try this: activate the Gateway for 1 mana, untap with Tine in response, activate a second time for a mana. The second activation resolves for a loot, 5 life, a transform, and an untap. Tap for 25 mana. Then the first one resolves, but the rules say it can't transform again, so you end up with a loot, 5 life, and untap Sanctum of the Sun, which can tap for 30 mana now, a net of 53 instead.

I also had a question about this combo. How can you untap Sanctum of the Sun a second time? Technically, it already transformed and what's sitting on the stack is "untap Azor's Gateway." Sanctum of the Sun is not Azor's Gateway.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I would never suggest Sudden Substitution (an awsome card in general) to anyone playing things like Chance for Glory.

You know, that is fair.

Do you mind explaining why? I'm not sure I understand the combo. If you play Chance for Glory, then Sudden Substitution, you would give CfG to your opponent. But they can't take an "extra" turn because it's currently still your turn. So they couldn't lose the game but their creatures still get indestructible.

Thanks for this fantastic thread and keeping it going.

Chance for Glory says to "take an extra turn after this one. When the spell resolves, it's controller takes an extra turn after the current turn (which could be anyone's).

Chance for Glory is also an instant, so you can cast it to take an extra turn at any point in the rotation.