Having Your Voice Heard

[cryogen]

I'd like to bring this back to actually talking to Sheldon, rather than to each other. I suggestion was made in another thread of creating a cEDH committee, and while I don't think that this is necessarily something that is wanted, the idea does have some merit. I'd specifically like to get some input from [mention]Jim Wolfie[/mention], [mention]LabManiac_Cameron[/mention], and other prominent cEDH players that found themselves here from Reddit. I'm not sure how motivated the Reddit mods are to create a dedicated area where moderation will be more strictly enforced, but I would be happy to work with you all and [mention]Sheldon[/mention] / [mention]papa_funk[/mention] to set something up here if that's something you'd all be interested in.

(Edit: no slight is intended by exclusions of "other prominent cEDH players, I'm simply ignorant in who you all are from Reddit)

[Sinis]

Re: the people harping about Flash

I play Flash in a non-degenerate way. The same deck that plays it also plays Scout's Warning, Leyline of Anticipation and similar cards.

I like playing things at instant speed. Yes, sometimes I get a cute ETB or dies trigger out of it, but it's never something like Protean Hulk. It's usually something like Sphinx of Uthuun, or at very worst, Twilight Shepherd.

I want to echo what [mention]pokken[/mention] said pages and pages ago, though.

This format was clearly not intended to be competitive. It's just not what it's for. There are many competitive formats, and I have no idea why cEDH players want to come in and squat in a house that casual (read: non-competitive players) have been building since forever. I played casual EDH before it ever received any support from Wizards, and it's extraordinarily galling that there are people who now want to change the official stance of the format to suit their purposes which are in almost direct contravention of the original intentions behind it. This format is *not* for everyone, in the same way that standard, modern and legacy are not for everyone. In the same way that Planechase and Archenemy aren't for everyone.

Honestly, I think the solution is to keep the ban list so thin that it will never be competitively robust. If you want a competitively robust ban list, *make your own*. It has not stopped people previously, and I don't see why it should stop you now.

Do the cEDH advocates in this thread really think, in full intellectual honesty, that if Flash were banned, that you would have a nice competitively balanced format? Or do you have a laundry list of cards that will need to be dealt with of which Flash is only the first? Maybe I'm alone in that I play Flash non-degenerately, but I guarantee you that somewhere in the list of cards you want to ban for the purposes of competitive robustness is a card very widely played by casuals, (i.e. Edgar Markov, one of the headliners of a Commander-specific product).

The idea that the ban list should be adjusted for cEDH is not only labourious, but defeating for the majority of players in this format.

[Styrofoam]

1) The casual player isn't the boogeyman. cEDH players (for the most part) aren't opposed to casual players playing the way they want. (also, i really REALLY REALLY hate saying that cEDH isn't casual, because I am not playing cEDH other that casually for fun 1 night a week.... but colloquially i understand the difference.... The real problem is the RC has, in a lot of cEDH players opinion, a philosophy that is too rigid and exclusionary, and we are asking for less rigidity.

Then it shouldn't be a problem if RC mainly cather to casual players, since they are not opposite to competitive

2) This is not just cEDH players. This happens literally every single time a card people play with are banned.

3-7) yes...there are people who do complain about certain cards on the banned list, I agree. There are some....questionable cards.... on it. But sylvan primordial likely wouldn't see play in cEDH. Prophet of kruphix might... maybe? Seedborn muse barely sees play now as it is, and it's comparable. These were banned because of the warping effect they had on casual games, and at the end of the day, the bannings have very little effect on cEDH. Cards that are banned that are very questionable are cards like... biorythm, coalition victory, gifts ungiven, and probably grisslebrand would likely have very little impact on the format casually, and yet remain banned. They are the cards we point to when we say why can't flash be added to this list?

And would biorythm or coalition victory make a huge impact on competitive? I see almost 0 cards on the banlist that would be good and fair in cEDH. They are either crazy strong or kinda useless. If you want to make a list of unbans, i'm interested.

8) Primeval titan should stay banned.

9) No, we've been wanting flash banned before PE got banned. It is that format warping, and that egregious that it needs to go.

I agree on everything and i think the majority of casual players would too. I guess that the main dissent would be among competitive players

10) We aren't asking for the whole banned and restricted list to be tailored to our corner of EDH. We are asking for the RC to hear us out, and make a decision with cEDH at least in the discussion. It's not about getting everything we want all the time... that's not realistic, and not something anyone expects. We're not asking for a feast in our honor. We're just asking for a seat at the table.

[highlight=yellow]But you are getting listened. They aren't banning fast mana or tutors even if they are obviously broken. They aren't banning generals like Derevi or Prossh. They waited years to ban Iona even if she was always a controversial card. They are always cautious and try to do the best even for the competitive players. They aways give a chance to every card.
The thing they won't do is blatantly sacrificing the casual community for the competitive one. And they shouldn't.[/highlight]

cEDH players are fine with the main focus being on the casual format. We're not asking otherwise. We've stated this dozens of times.

Would those cards make a huge impact in Competitive? no. But they also wouldn't make a huge impact at the casual tables. Literally at all. Which is the observation many of us are making. The RC makes some....questionable decisions.... when it comes to the ban list. Are they all questionable? no. But there are at least 3 cards that would see so little play it's baffling why they feel the need to ban them, and flash, for the most part sees about as much play at the casual tables as biorythm, and coalition victory would. (and probably also, sway of stars to be honest) But in this instance, banning flash would placate the problems 10-15% of EDH players have been having for 2 years now.

I'm glad you agree that Flash needs to go. Most competitive players agree. Even many of the ones who play flash.

But no one is asking for Fast mana, or tutors to be banned. Casual players don't have an issue with these going to get problematic cards that end the game (like flash + hulk or food chain) and those commanders aren't an issue in either competitive or casual. But if they became an issue at casual for some reason or another... the choice to ban them based on their problematic nature in casual SHOULD take priority over their use in cEDH.

It's only when there isn't a conflict that cEDH should be taken into account. Like with flash. Which is not played fairly. No one is casting flash to play a single creature at instant speed. It's just not happening.

And we aren't being listened to... because sheldon himself has said "we will never take into account cEDH when it comes to bans" It's that rigidity that we object to. It is extremely close minded and short sighted for nothing. It just alienates 10-15% of all EDH players. not cool.

[Styrofoam]

Re: the people harping about Flash

I play Flash in a non-degenerate way. The same deck that plays it also plays Scout's Warning, Leyline of Anticipation and similar cards.

I like playing things at instant speed. Yes, sometimes I get a cute ETB or dies trigger out of it, but it's never something like Protean Hulk. It's usually something like Sphinx of Uthuun, or at very worst, Twilight Shepherd.

I want to echo what @pokken said pages and pages ago, though.

This format was clearly not intended to be competitive. It's just not what it's for. There are many competitive formats, and I have no idea why cEDH players want to come in and squat in a house that casual (read: non-competitive players) have been building since forever. I played casual EDH before it ever received any support from Wizards, and it's extraordinarily galling that there are people who now want to change the official stance of the format to suit their purposes which are in almost direct contravention of the original intentions behind it. This format is *not* for everyone, in the same way that standard, modern and legacy are not for everyone. In the same way that Planechase and Archenemy aren't for everyone.

Honestly, I think the solution is to keep the ban list so thin that it will never be competitively robust. If you want a competitively robust ban list, *make your own*. It has not stopped people previously, and I don't see why it should stop you now.

Do the cEDH advocates in this thread really think, in full intellectual honesty, that if Flash were banned, that you would have a nice competitively balanced format? Or do you have a laundry list of cards that will need to be dealt with of which Flash is only the first?

There isn't really anything in cEDH to the level of absurdity as flash. Nothing is close.

[Sinis]

There isn't really anything in cEDH to the level of absurdity as flash. Nothing is close.

Tbh, I think you side-stepped the question. Once Flash is banned, what's the next most broken thing? Is it also going to dominate the format?

One of the huge problems surrounding trying to adjust the ban list to suit cEDH is that EDH did not start out as a competitive format. Taking modern as an example... Modern have their ban list curated endlessly to ensure that no single deck is dominating. That was always their express aim, and for Modern, it's something they not only design around, but monitor closely.

An analogy would be the continuous pruning and care for a tree so that it grows in a particular way while remaining healthy. EDH is not a carefully tended-to tree. We let it grow wild and relatively untended because that's what we wanted.

You think that banning Flash is going to solve cEDH's problems, but I guarantee you it won't. The problem of a competitively robust banlist for a format where you effectively start with a legendary creature in your hand is much, much larger than you're giving it credit for.

And, if Flash is *such* a problem, why don't cEDH players (even the Flash players who agree that it needs to be banned!) agree that Flash is de facto banned before you sit down to play a game? Why do you need Official Enforcement™ to prevent you from playing Flash when you could all agree to not to in the first place.

[FireStorm4056]

Everyone stop this ridiculous arguing about whether or not you like CEDH. We each play this format and are entitled to give our opinions on the games we like to play. The point of this thread is to provide that feedback based on our own games and experiences on how the RC can best guide the format to achieve the best outcomes for the most people who play it (and yes, although some may not like it, this includes high-power players). The point is NOT to attack other people's opinions, preferences, and experiences.

[mention]ilovesaprolings[/mention] and [mention]pokken[/mention]:
You've already been told. Unless you have direct feedback for Sheldon about casual EDH, stop posting. All you are doing is spreading hypberbole and falsehoods about a style of the format you neither play nor understand.

[mention]cryogen[/mention]:
It is your job to keep this VERY IMPORTANT THREAD on-topic. Both of the above users have consistently steered away from productive feedback, instead engaging in arguments and accusations with multiple other people. They are the only ones directly replying to other users (who are giving honest, useful feedback) by blatantly starting multiple unproductive arguments. This thread is already argumentative enough that it risks being completely ignored by the RC. If we hope for this to be at all productive, contributions need to be limited to people's opinions on the games they actually play themselves, and experiences they personally have in those games. If someone never plays casual, they shouldn't comment on it. Likewise, if someone doesn't play CEDH, they shouldn't comment on it (pubstomping =/= CEDH). Discussion to clarify a misconception (which has now happened multiple times) is great and productive for everyone. But these absurd conjectures about foreign playgroups/decks/playstyles, apocalyptic predictions about how CEDH will kill the format at large, and unprovoked slamming of other members' preferences and playstyles, are not appropriate.

---

To clarify the "slippery-slope" of CEDH bans, below is a list of potential "CEDH" banlist changes. They are my own (not the community's), but I think many would agree (recent bans/unbans excluded to avoid starting another argument):
Ban: Flash
Indifferent: (These cards wouldn't have huge competitive impact so we'd be OK unbanning them, would totally depend on whether casual players care): Biorhythm; Braids, Cabal Minion; Coalition Victory; Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary; Worldfire
Unban: N/A

Our issue is literally just Flash. Yes, there are other degenerate combos, but each is more expensive, harder to assemble, and easier to interact with than Flash/Hulk. The alternatives are all more or less equivalent to one another in each of these metrics. We don't want them to go - it's only Flash, which is head-and-shoulders superior to everything else, that is a format-warping offender. We know this because we already played this format without Flash/Hulk. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on Flash, but the consensus among the competitive community (those who actually play with and against it) is that banning it would be a very healthy move.

That said, our point is not that the RC needs to follow our every banlist suggestion. We just want to be legitimately listened to (feedback collected + considered), respected, and fairly considered for future banlist/rules changes.

[Styrofoam]

There isn't really anything in cEDH to the level of absurdity as flash. Nothing is close.

Tbh, I think you side-stepped the question. Once Flash is banned, what's the next most broken thing? Is it also going to dominate the format?

One of the huge problems surrounding trying to adjust the ban list to suit cEDH is that EDH did not start out as a competitive format. Taking modern as an example... Modern have their ban list curated endlessly to ensure that no single deck is dominating. That was always their express aim, and for Modern, it's something they not only design around, but monitor closely.

An analogy would be the continuous pruning and care for a tree so that it grows in a particular way while remaining healthy. EDH is not a carefully tended-to tree. We let it grow wild and relatively untended because that's what we wanted.

You think that banning Flash is going to solve cEDH's problems, but I guarantee you it won't. The problem of a competitively robust banlist for a format where you effectively start with a legendary creature in your hand is much, much larger than you're giving it credit for.

And, if Flash is *such* a problem, why don't cEDH players (even the Flash players who agree that it needs to be banned!) agree that Flash is de facto banned before you sit down to play a game? Why do you need Official Enforcement™ to prevent you from playing Flash when you could all agree to not to in the first place.

there are a lot of things that are good enough to compete. Nothing on the level of flash, we won't need or want anything to go after flash. The rest of stuff that is being played or was being played before flash is slow enough, or fragile enough that it can be efficiently answered or interacted with. Flash is different than anything else by a large margin.

It wasn't a sidestep. It was as succinct as I could be without you having experienced the format yourself.

cEDH doesn't really have a problem outside of flash. There are a variety of answers and interaction and a ton of decks that are on the fringe being held back by not having the right kind of interaction for flash/hulk.

And let me reiterate man, we don't want to ban anything to the detriment of casual play. Banning flash would affect almost no one at casual tables.

and I hate to break it to you man, but the format has grown, evolved, and changed since the days when it was first created. There are hundreds of thousands of players who play, and each one of them has a playgroup and each one of those has their own definition of what fun is, how to achieve that. the RC has, IMO, an obligation to try and listen to as many perspectives as possible, even if they don't agree with what the definition of fun is in other people's play groups.

Finally, to answer "why don't cEDH players just agree not to play flash"

Because edh is a global format. Because I can't go to Magic Fest Las Vegas this year and play a group of strangers who agree that flash is off the table. Becuase whether or not [mention]Sheldon[/mention] and the rest of the RC wants to admit it, their Ban list is used as the OFFICIAL measuring stick for the format, in GP events that you pay money to play and get prize tickets. It's the same reason, why, I won't go sit down at your table, pull out First sliver food chain, and proceed to kill you on turn 4, and ask why are you not having fun?

[cryogen]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this for a bit. FireStorm is correct that it hasn't really improved despite requests, and I think at this point [mention]Sheldon[/mention] has had plenty of input from anyone who was going to comment. I think there is still plenty of room to discuss the dichotomy of casual vs competitive, but that shouldn't be in this thread.

[cryogen]

Unlocked at Sheldon's request.

[pokken]

Welp, I'm frankly glad to see it unlocked as I learned a lot and appreciated most of the perspectives in the thread.

I hope this is the right place to ask this but could we get a little official guidance on how tightly on topic you would like this to stay from here on out? I *personally* was enjoying the spirited debate on CEDH with a few exceptions. Honestly, I think the weight given to competition is probably in the top 3 factors in people feeling left out of the communication loop with the RC so I find it very important despite my disagreement with many CEDH players on the subject.

[Azerim]

A thing to consider is changing starting health from 40 to 30, or at least test it well. Reasons:
-Combos (usually infinite) are the easiest way to win a game. If you want to deal 140 damage, or even 100 damage by biting down with creatures you are fighting an uphill battle compared to a combo player. If you play a casual game where nobody has combos or good ways to end the game it just takes a looong time (often 2 hours+) for somebody to win through just biting down opponents. Decreasing starting life total by 25% would make beat-down strategies more viable, maybe even some aggro decks would be able to compete.
-Life is a resource, and 40 life is a lot of a free resource. Most cards were balanced around 20 starting HP. Shock lands, fetch lands, Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault - damage from does sources rarely matters. Necropotance and Ad Nauseam let you abuse that free resource. Changing it it 30 would make life actually matter much more than it currently does.

Commander damage is something that should be considered to be changed. Voltron decks usually aren't very strong, or even if built well, you can kill 1 or 2 people and just don't have enough resources to kill the third player. It also creates feel bad moments - optimal strategy for playing a voltron deck would be to focus one player and kill him first, making him wait 30+ minutes for next game. I think changing it to 18 would be a step in the right firection. Why 18? Simply because of number of attacks needed for a set power of creature: 6*3=18, 9*2=18, 5*4>=18. All commanders with 5 and 6 attack would be significantly stronger, because they would require a whole one combat step less to actually kill somebody (and our favorite 9/3 frog spirit would be feared by his enemies).

[cryogen]

Welp, I'm frankly glad to see it unlocked as I learned a lot and appreciated most of the perspectives in the thread.

I hope this is the right place to ask this but could we get a little official guidance on how tightly on topic you would like this to stay from here on out? I *personally* was enjoying the spirited debate on CEDH with a few exceptions. Honestly, I think the weight given to competition is probably in the top 3 factors in people feeling left out of the communication loop with the RC so I find it very important despite my disagreement with many CEDH players on the subject.

Yeah I did too. My concern, which maybe Sheldon will say otherwise, is that this thread had one specific purpose, and that was for Sheldon and the Rules Committee to get feedback on why they felt unheard. And everything else being discussed, while absolutely valid discussion, is a distraction to achieving that feedback.

And to be perfectly honest, had it been a normal thread I probably wouldn't have an issue with a little tangential discussion, but I think the importance of the actual RC getting quality feedback on such an important topic necessitates being a little heavy-handed.

[Sheldon]

I'd like to take the time to make a few points.

Please don't take the fact that I'm not responding to every comment as anything other than time is not an infinite resource. I'll do as much as I can.

If there's space to be able to serve the extremes of the community without crumbling the middle, we'll do our best to find it (although it's not actually that balanced; I don't think there's a casual extreme that equals the competitive). We'll consider all rational opinions and ideas. I'd like to heal some of the rift in our community, especially since some of the things I've said in the past may have contributed to it.

Some people are under the impression that if I lose to something, I want to take a stand against it. I can't say strongly enough (and I suppose no matter how often I say it, if you're not disposed to believing it, there's nothing I can do to convince you) that what happens in my local play group and in the groups of the RC has little to no impact on what kinds decisions we make for the format. I've said it before: I'm more likely to want to ban something that I won with than I lost to.

I'm going to ask a favor here. To the people who think that I don't like or don't understand competitive Magic, please just stop. You're simply wrong. Moreover, it doesn't help forward the discussion, and that's what we're here to do.

Someone earlier in the thread made a good analogy about Formula 1 cars and Honda Civics, so I'll try to use it. I believe that the true cEDH player doesn't want to race against Civics. F1 v. F1 and Civic v. Civic make better races. Here's the problem. If someone brings a Civic to an F1 race, they're a non-factor. If someone brings a F1 to a Civic race, they're going to dominate and render all the Civics irrelevant. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of people who have no problem with bringing their F1 to the Civic race, since it's not against the rules to do so. The only way to let the Civics race is to either make F1s illegal or put governors on them (doesn't NASCAR do the latter to some level?).

So here's the dilemma. We don't want to make F1s illegal, but what do we do in the face of those people who keep bringing them to the Civic races? We created a space--one that really wasn't there before--for the goofiest of Civic races. Our first responsibility is making sure that those races still get to happen, no matter how many F1s there are. By doing so, we're not saying that people who drive F1s are bad. Like I quoted from The West Wing in my article, increasing life expectancy isn't trivializing undertakers. Obviously, the direct analogy doesn't work, but it gets to the heart of what I've been recently saying. We're not taking a stand against F1s, but we're definitely pro-Civic, and it's an uncharitable reading of what we're trying to do if you draw the former from the latter.

Since we don't want to legislate F1s out of existence, we use the remaining tools that we have at our disposal--hence a social contract. This whole analogy, by the way, is also the reason a split list wouldn't work. Unless the casual list also contained all the cards on the competitive list, there would be no prevention against crossing the streams, as it were.

So back to the problem that we're trying to solve. If people enjoy the format in radically different ways, how do we maintain our vision without alienating someone? I don't think we can make Commander all things to all people (but I'd sure be happy to be wrong there). The number and percentage of people who enjoy it in the F1 way is on the rise; we can't dispute that. It's a growing pain that we're going to have to learn how to adapt to. That doesn't mean we're going to let it wipe out the Civics. I'm fully committed to figuring out how we can share the road.

[MRHblue]

That said, our point is not that the RC needs to follow our every banlist suggestion. We just want to be legitimately listened to (feedback collected + considered), respected, and fairly considered for future banlist/rules changes.

While I think that's a fair thought, I am just not sure its possible if EDH is going to be what the RC envisions for it. PE was a staple of many cEDH decks, and seems to have been a strong competitor to Flash/Hulk as combos go. But only one made waves in EDH. And what I hear above is 'cEDH should be considered, and those cards should share a fate'.

How would the Philosophy Document change , in your opinion, to accommodate that idea you have proposed?

[bubskee]

That doesn't mean we're going to let it wipe out the Civics.

I don't think the Civics will ever die, but I do think that it may not end up being the primary way people enjoy EDH. Maybe, maybe not. Part of the issue is that the Civics are actually not all Civics: some are Ladas. Gloriously restored Ladas with all foils and all art by the same artist, perhaps!

There really is no standard to gather the Civics around -- fun is too nebulous and not even an earnest social contract can preserve it every time. Winning is not nebulous (and many people find it fun), so players will find themselves focused around winning. This is further reinforced when prizes and tournament structure exist.

It is also an issue that the banlist sends mixed messages to anyone who reads it. I do not think that it is feasible to police the 'fun floor' of the format. That said, I think it may be possible to police the 'power ceiling', likely even with a shorter banlist than we currently have.

I really like the idea I mentioned above of [mention]Sheldon[/mention] and other members of the RC joining content creators (and in particular cEDH content creators) for gameplay videos or other such things. Probably great for view counts, also.

[lyonhaert]

...

So here's the dilemma. We don't want to make F1s illegal, but what do we do in the face of those people who keep bringing them to the Civic races? We created a space--one that really wasn't there before--for the goofiest of Civic races. Our first responsibility is making sure that those races still get to happen, no matter how many F1s there are. By doing so, we're not saying that people who drive F1s are bad. Like I quoted from The West Wing in my article, increasing life expectancy isn't trivializing undertakers. Obviously, the direct analogy doesn't work, but it gets to the heart of what I've been recently saying. We're not taking a stand against F1s, but we're definitely pro-Civic, and it's an uncharitable reading of what we're trying to do if you draw the former from the latter.

...

It seems to me the imbalance isn't in power level of decks in this example, but of social power dynamics. The difference is all in their intention and not the power level of their deck. If a cEDH player who respects social contract and wants an honest challenge happens to, by some accident, bring their F1 to a Civic race, would they not quickly realize they were outmatching everybody, smooth things over, then switch to driving a Civic or find a different race track (table)? If, on the other hand, somebody's intent is to bring an F1 to a Civic race then nothing you can change about the rules or banlist is going to stop them from pursuing that because pubstompers will find a way to pubstomp. Their goals are outside and separate from the goals of the folks who want to race Civics against Civics and the folks who want to race F1s against F1s.

What about guides and templating and content for navigating these power dynamics? How do we instead raise up the skill levels of initiating and navigating a confrontation with a pubstomper (or other person abusing power dynamics)? What techniques from social engineering are deployable in this?

[HoffOccultist]

[mention]Sheldon[/mention]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts. I don't want to speak for everyone, but most of the cEDH players I know feel that the "share the road" idea is an important one. Without the flexibility of the ban list as it exists, cEDH wouldn't be a thing--a lot of the stuff that remains legal is a big draw for players who enjoy cEDH. I truly believe that most cEDH players are really just looking to play at a high level against other high level decks, but you're right that there will always be the danger of someone bringing a grossly incorrect power deck to a table. My personal opinion is that will always be an underlying danger of any non-tournament format, and I'm not sure how such a decision can be legislated out of the game. Regardless, I hope you keep engaging with cEDH players as well as everyone else you have been engaging with--there's a lot of blowback you get that you don't deserve (and some tiny amount, perhaps, that you do), and continuing a conversation in the face of that must suck. I was heartened when I saw you and Jim from SpikeFeeders interacting on Twitter, and I hope stuff like that continues well into the future.


Aside from addressing Sheldon directly, with a lot of the stuff regarding Flash/the P. Engine ban floating around in the thread: I again don't want to speak for everyone, but to me the issue with Flash is that without P. Engine in the format, it stands at a high level above the other potential outlets to win. Many decks run Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter as a means to get to their win conditions, but it doesn't have the same level of efficiency as a simple Flash Hulk. And while there are deckbuilding considerations and sacrifices in using Hulk to win, they are relatively limited sacrifices to make overall, whereas Dramatic Scepter requires a higher level of deckbuilding concessions to be a viable method to victory (and, frankly, puts more pressure on any general that doesn't include Thrasios). While Paradox Engine required fewer deckbuilding concessions to be viable than even Flash Hulk, it was much slower, and also opened up axes of competition that were otherwise much to slow or inconsistent to match up with a Flash Hulk deck (of which there are many flavors). That said, I fully understand--and mostly agree--with the Engine ban (though I am sad that a few of my favorite decks are no longer even close to cEDH viable due to it). The issue is that now Flash Hulk crowds out a huge portion of other decks. Sure, there are still other decks like Food Chain, but they have a similar level of deck concessions and require more resources to be effective than Flash Hulk. Because of that level of resource investment required to go off, if the single card enabling such fast decks (Flash) goes away, there's a much larger number of ways to combat the new "best decks", whether they are Food Chain or Consultation or Doomsday or something else entirely. Of course, the slippery slope argument of "won't they just want the next best thing banned too" is worth asking, but I assume--and this is my opinion, not speaking for anyone else--that *if* Flash were to be removed from the format, cEDH would be largely self-correcting into a new state of near-equilibrium similar to what we had prior to the P. Engine ban (not that there aren't some other adjustments that wouldn't also improve things, but they are smaller potatoes that would have a much wider impact on all edges of the format than just punting Flash off a cliff)

[Jim Wolfie]

Not for nothing but i don't like treating this as as a tale of two races. It feels incomplete as a snapshot of the format.

the social landscape has changed a lot even in the last 9 years too. The rise of content, local scenes, and go side events, just were not around back then. Just like I would hate to see these things go, I would also hate to see all the different ways that aren't driving a Civic style edh ceck to go. Not just your f1s but your Avant garde wagon brews and your post modern electric bike decks.

what needs to change is less about a particular banlist and more about giving players adequate tools for communication while also not yucking people's yums. Like as a practical example? Have people judges take decklist urls on signup to sort players based on what they want.

Also fwiw don't color paradox engine as the same power level as flash.

[toctheyounger]

what needs to change is less about a particular banlist and more about giving players adequate tools for communication while also not yucking people's yums. Like as a practical example? Have people judges take decklist urls on signup to sort players based on what they want.

Kind of agree. Just saying 'ok, Flash is banned' would be a stopgap measure at best.

I'd like to hear more ideas for increased communication with the RC. I think it'd be foolish to think that Sheldon or the rest of the RC have anywhere near enough time to address individual concerns on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to feed information back to them in a constructive manner. The above example works for side events at GP events and such which is fine, but it doesn't cover the lion's share of LGS games and casual games, whether they be edh or cEDH. There's got to be some ways to feed back some of the more subjective experience from those environments - especially because those are the grassroots of what this format exists for.

[Jim Wolfie]

I've noticed that edh nights that reward pod success are more successful than ones that try to force a rigid structure. So for example, first pod is random then you can get up and pod with whomever, pack per pod win. It's what my lgs uses. The issue is that doesn't work for every store because that structure is designed as a loss leader.

Contrast this with a traditional Swiss structure. Even if everyone is playing the same power level, because multiplayer means more people lose, you can run a 64 man event with just 3 rounds. I don't know about you, but I want to play magic period at locals.

Likewise for the heavy point list stores, newer players see this, see the people who made the list, and move their business along. it cements a groups interpretation of casual and isolated the old guard. I don't think anyone wants that.

This won't be solved in a day, but that doesn't mean we can't find myrad of solution that fits most. IDK something something racing gloves for sport or style

[Jace]

Ultimately, if players would adhere to the "build casually, play competitively" philosophy of Commander, there would be a lot less strain on the RC to police the format. But I still maintain that the long spell of silence on cards like Paradox Engine and Iona was concerning for the RC being out of touch with the health of the format and opinion of the players. I feel like Cyclonic Rift's ban evasion and cards like Gifts Ungiven not being evaluated for unbanning give the impression that the format isn't being regularly evaluated. Lack of change can sometimes be concerning. Especially when some people feel some form of adjustment is necessary. Still, I'd fault players more than the RC for this, as my playgroup tends to self-regulate rather well, and we have many great games.

Just my opinion in a nutshell.

[Taleran]

I find that statement and always have incredible oxymoronic so have had a hard time taking it seriously ever since I heard it for the first time. Especially when surrounded by the rest of MTG and formats and players bleeding into Commander from them.

[ilovesaprolings]

@ilovesaprolings and @pokken:
You've already been told. Unless you have direct feedback for Sheldon about casual EDH, stop posting. All you are doing is spreading hypberbole and falsehoods about a style of the format you neither play nor understand.

I think that hyperboles and falsehood started way before my postings, but well i guess i'll shut up. Your voice should be heard, but only if it fits FireStom's opinion [mention]pokken[/mention]

Warning for trolling - cryo

[Sinis]

Ultimately, if players would adhere to the "build casually, play competitively" philosophy of Commander, there would be a lot less strain on the RC to police the format.

I think this is the main question/divide. Non-competitive players, in my experience, talk about the kind of game they want to play and come to an agreement on whether they should play a game or not. Competitive players immediately agree "We'll play any kind of game that the rules and banlist allow", but then disagree with the banlist because it doesn't promote fun games (i.e. Flash is a 'problem').

The philosophy of Commander has historically been about maximizing your fun because we're not breaking the format, but we've got a not-insignificantly sized group whose fun is "breaking the format". It sounds to me like this is not a problem with a solution within the context of a single ban list (not saying that a separate ban list is desirable, the other thread has convinced me of that).

If we ban Flash, it will turn into the next most problematic thing. When I took a peek on /r/competitiveEDH, there are threads that complain about Thrasios & Tymna (affectionately abbreviated sometimes as T&T). Even the stickied post that states the subreddit's philosophy against format splitting and separate ban lists is posted by someone with the flair "Ban Partners". Other threads note that having partner commanders creates an imbalance because it's like starting with an additional card in hand, and tracking commander tax separately allows more reliable access to either one, providing a significant (excessive?) advantage.

In short, the problems with cEDH will not stop with Flash. It would be swell to see some reasoning behind not banning Flash that acknowledges the problem it poses for competitive players, but based on what I saw on my visit to /r/competitiveEDH, I doubt that will appease most of the cEDH players/reddit-goers.

[RxPhantom]

Flash I honestly can't think of a single fair use for the card. And it shouldn't be that hard to hear the cEDH crowd, look at EDHRec, see how often the card is played in non-cEDH situations and come to a pretty good conclusion to whether or not the ban would affect the "core demographic"

if it has little to no effect, it should be an easy call. If it has a moderate effect, just leave it alone.

I disagree. Just because Flash isn't an omnipresent format staple doesn't mean it should be banned just to appease a small section of the community. EDH decks across the spectrum use niche cards that have specific utility in certain kinds of decks. Flash falls into that category for me in one of my favorite decks, and I'd be pretty sore at losing it.

Frankly, I don't know what the solution is. The cEDH crowd would like the RC to consider their needs when it comes to bans and unbans despite that running counter to the RC's decades-old vision for the format, but they don't want to split off either. And what's the next boogeyman to deserve a ban after Flash?