Poison Counters

[Cyberium]

Ten poison is fine, given that the whole table would likely gang up on you after seeing a single drop of it.

Besides, if blue/combo players can play cards like Mana Crypt with little to no hindrance, thanks to 40 starting life, might as well give aggro decks something to counteract all that brokenness. (I'd prefer banning multiple rocks before I raise poison #, but I doubt people would be on board for that)

[5colorsrainbow]

Imo poison counters can lead to feel bad game when someone gets knocked out by Blightsteel Colossus or similar. I like the direction the new deck and mechanics this set has for it as it more encourages you to spread out the poison and not just one shot people out which seems more feel good than what Infect decks often too.

[Treamayne]

All infect is a threat, proliferate without poison is a durdle (a fun durdle, but still a durdle). I say this as somebody with five "proliferate" decks and not one poison card amongst them.

I am curious, how so? I've always seen Proliferate as quite useful in decks that my opponents played, since it scales up in power the wider board with counters you have.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. How does it durdle? Sure, it can be fairly potent when you have multiple creatures to proliferate, and even better with Storage Lands and counter-based mana rocks/enchantments (Pentad Prism, Astral Cornucopia, Gemstone Array, Iceberg, Druids' Repository, Mana Cache, etc.).

However, it is still usually to activate and while some instants/sorceries have it stapled on, there isn't enough of that to run the theme on it's own. You can, in decks with U, of course use Inexorable Tide - but that is a removal magnet (and rightly so) but still durdly as it makes turns take too long. For example, here is my Karn Subtheme Suite:

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Proliferate:
Karn's Bastion
Contagion Clasp
Contagion Engine
Throne of Geth

Helpers:
Power Conduit
Nesting Grounds

Targets:
City of Shadows
Mage-Ring Network
Everflowing Chalice
Umezawa's Jitte
Golem Foundry
Titan Forge
Arcane Spyglass
Arcbound Reclaimer
Empowered Autogenerator
Arcbound Bruiser
Armageddon Clock

Fun? Yes (without poison/experience). Strong? Sometimes, in the right build. Durdles? Almost always.
Does that answer your question?

I thought if Proliferate could only be used on permanents and not players, it could alleviate some of the problems some people see with Poison.

That's how I play it.

[Avacyn Believer]

Fun? Yes (without poison/experience). Strong? Sometimes, in the right build. Durdles? Almost always.
Does that answer your question?

Yeah I meant about the durdling. I suppose I am used to seeing it only on two types of decks, first being OG Atraxa where its just free double trigger at minimum and always feels powerful. And decks with +1/+1 on most creatures where they just keep growing. Never felt durdly to me, but different experiences I suppose.

[3drinks]

Proliferate is mana hungry and usually limited to a tap req which makes it hard-ish to quickly ramp up poison with it. The biggest prolif offender is that landfall proliferate g dude whose name I can't recall. Overall now, infect, toxic, it's whatever. Players are gonna whine about losing to x, regardless what that x is. Games are meant to end. Personally I'm happy we now have a way to win with creatures that isn't tokens + purphoros/zulaport cutthroat. Maybe players will actually go back to playing removal when they realize they don't truly have a forty point buffer to save them.

Toxic is infinitely more balanced than infect. I don't really see that as a conversation, it's clear as day. Leave my Fireshrieker wielding Skrelv, Defector Mite alone, dang it. It's just a simple lil buddy trying to do it's thing.

[JovialJovian]

As far as I'm concerned, the only problematic poison card in EDH is Blightsteel Colossus, and that's basically just because it's Phage the Untouchable that can be cheated out and in any color.

Nothing among the new poison cards looks like it's going to change that at this stage.
It's possible that the increased number of poison cards finally pushes it over the edge as a strategy.

We'll just have to see, I suppose.

[3drinks]

As far as I'm concerned, the only problematic poison card in EDH is Blightsteel Colossus, and that's basically just because it's Phage the Untouchable that can be cheated out and in any color.

Even then, it's not like you can reanimate it. You can sneak attack it, but if you see sneak attack|usg, and you didn't do anything about it, that's your bad. You knew what's coming. No different from sneaking an eldrazi. And it still gets bounced, edicted, exiled, transformed - all with no prior value in ETB or attack trigger. Putrefax/Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon is more of a threat because they can be hasted and aren't reliant on a cheat mechanism while capable of being reanimated early.

Who remembers Mimeo-'fax from back in the day? THAT was out of nowhere with at least some justification to be a bit peeved.

[JovialJovian]

Neither Putrefax nor Skittles bother me, really. The issue with Blightsteel is that, it doesn't slot into other strategies as an alternative, nor does it really want to be in Poison decks, it's treated as a 1-card kill that needs no support and minimal or no setup, often it appears in decks and they don't even need to flex the strategy at all to accommodate it. It's a lot like an Eldrazi, except as an artifact it's easier to slide into more decks.
Sure, there's answers, there's answers to everything, but if we were going to put all the poison cards in order of most bannable to least, Blightsteel is top of my list easy.

I'm also super salty about Blightsteel because whenever I put it into a deck, it gets stolen and used to kill me. Literally every time.
Same thing with Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger actually.

[folding_music]

Toxic looks a bit underpowered! One or two of those commander cards CAN add a poison counter without the need to attack and I think they'll be a bigger problem than any of the creatures besides the obvious Infect guys we already knew about; there's a sorcery that gives all opponent a counter and a good-stuff enchantment which paints yr attackers with them. but I don't fear it as a strat because it doesn't really work as a strategy in commander, or rather, the idea of one-shotting people with a big infect guy doesn't gain much from any of these new cards. imo!

(I know Proliferate often appears with poison counters but I've always gone full wizard with it with chronologist, astral cornucopia, djinn of wishes, rasputin, sand silos etc. can't imagine that deck actually using the attack step)

[toctheyounger]

I'm not even slightly worried. I think it'll likely be a flash in the pan mechanic at casual level, people will play it, hear complaints and shelve their decks for the times when their edgy not-quite-spike pods show up. At a high power level it's not even on the radar. If infect weren't, toxic assuredly won't be.

I'm more worried about proliferate, but not from a power level perspective; the mechanic chews time, slowly, like a cow chewing on a mouthful of cud. It's pretty miserable to play.

[Ruiner]

I have some aggro decks that run Infect/Poison and rarely get any complaints. It doesn't tend to be a strategy that wins super quickly. Unlike a normal aggro strategy, no one else is helping you in general (aggro decks usually can capitalize on the damage done by each other).

Triumph of the Hordes is just a good Overrun effect. It can definitely just wiff if you don't have an overwhelming boardstate already.

This may be totally baseless, but I get the impression that some people get overly worried about it without seeing it in practice, and/or aren't running enough interaction. Not all people, just some. There are definitely more efficient ways to win.

Toxic overall doesn't look to be a crazy fast way to win, while still being pretty decent.

[toctheyounger]

This may be totally baseless, but I get the impression that some people get overly worried about it without seeing it in practice, and/or aren't running enough interaction. Not all people, just some. There are definitely more efficient ways to win.

This has been my impression too; it seems more something that the casual crowd are concerned with. For myself I've played with a screed of infect decks and I don't think I've seen one take a game even a single time, purely for being hated out. I've even tried to help them stay in the game. It really is the boogeyman mechanic, people immediately do not like it.

[Cyberium]

Poison is similar to why Serra Ascendant got banned in 1v1; some decks just don't have answer on time to handle it. Against a whole table though, we see how quickly SA drops in power, again similar to poison on this regard.

Echoing what 5colorsrainbow said, I appreciate the new design encourages you to spreading poisons. Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa might be the first poison deck I'd build for that reason.

[3drinks]

I'm not even slightly worried. I think it'll likely be a flash in the pan mechanic at casual level, people will play it, hear complaints and shelve their decks for the times when their edgy not-quite-spike pods show up. At a high power level it's not even on the radar. If infect weren't, toxic assuredly won't be.

I'm more worried about proliferate, but not from a power level perspective; the mechanic chews time, slowly, like a cow chewing on a mouthful of cud. It's pretty miserable to play.

I'm excited to bring Alesha Infect back that was already half ass playable with the added toxic support. Just might be enough to push it over the hump now. Especially with Norn's Decree.

[Benstrokes]

All infect is a threat, proliferate without poison is a durdle (a fun durdle, but still a durdle). I say this as somebody with five "proliferate" decks and not one poison card amongst them.

I am curious, how so? I've always seen Proliferate as quite useful in decks that my opponents played, since it scales up in power the wider board with counters you have.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking here. How does it durdle? Sure, it can be fairly potent when you have multiple creatures to proliferate, and even better with Storage flexi buckets and counter-based mana rocks/enchantments (Pentad Prism, Astral Cornucopia, Gemstone Array, Iceberg, Druids' Repository, Mana Cache, etc.).

However, it is still usually to activate and while some instants/sorceries have it stapled on, there isn't enough of that to run the theme on it's own. You can, in decks with U, of course use Inexorable Tide - but that is a removal magnet (and rightly so) but still durdly as it makes turns take too long. For example, here is my Karn Subtheme Suite:

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Proliferate:
Karn's Bastion
Contagion Clasp
Contagion Engine
Throne of Geth

Helpers:
Power Conduit
Nesting Grounds

Targets:
City of Shadows
Mage-Ring Network
Everflowing Chalice
Umezawa's Jitte
Golem Foundry
Titan Forge
Arcane Spyglass
Arcbound Reclaimer
Empowered Autogenerator
Arcbound Bruiser
Armageddon Clock

Fun? Yes (without poison/experience). Strong? Sometimes, in the right build. Durdles? Almost always.
Does that answer your question?

I thought if Proliferate could only be used on permanents and not players, it could alleviate some of the problems some people see with Poison.

That's how I play it.

Thats quite interesting. Never thought of it before but yeah I guess that playstyle works.

[Mookie]

I finally played against a toxic deck - specifically, the Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa precon. It did end up winning the one game I played against it, but from what I gathered, that was the only time it won that day out of several games played. My impression of it was that it's a generally fair aggro deck that relies on proliferate for extra damage once the board is stabilized, comparable to a burn deck finishing people off with Lightning Bolts.

I have two main critiques for the deck. Firstly, my mental math for how to evaluate cards is way off. Reading Ixhel as a 2/5, it's not that impressive at attacking... but when you treat it as an 8-power creature that takes a fifth of your life total per swing, it looks a lot scarier. As a result, I probably should have chumped / killed many of the toxic creatures more aggressively than I actually did.

My other critique is that proliferate / direct poison is... very uninteractive. I was able to stabilize in the game behind a Maze of Ith, but got burnt out by a Caress of Phyrexia, which felt... sort of anticlimactic? Against other decks, I can play more conservatively if my life total gets low, and I can add in / tutor for lifegain if I'm running Toxic Deluge or other cards that impose heavy costs on my life total... but it doesn't feel like there is much counterplay for poison.

From a development perspective, I do think it's nice that more aggressive decks are supported and that they have things to do in the lategame if things stall out (every proliferate is essentially a free Flame Rift)... but those aren't decks I particularly enjoy playing against either, so I would be okay with poison not getting any more support for a while.

[Cyberium]

I finally played against a toxic deck - specifically, the Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa precon. It did end up winning the one game I played against it, but from what I gathered, that was the only time it won that day out of several games played. My impression of it was that it's a generally fair aggro deck that relies on proliferate for extra damage once the board is stabilized, comparable to a burn deck finishing people off with Lightning Bolts.

I have two main critiques for the deck. Firstly, my mental math for how to evaluate cards is way off. Reading Ixhel as a 2/5, it's not that impressive at attacking... but when you treat it as an 8-power creature that takes a fifth of your life total per swing, it looks a lot scarier. As a result, I probably should have chumped / killed many of the toxic creatures more aggressively than I actually did.

My other critique is that proliferate / direct poison is... very uninteractive. I was able to stabilize in the game behind a Maze of Ith, but got burnt out by a Caress of Phyrexia, which felt... sort of anticlimactic? Against other decks, I can play more conservatively if my life total gets low, and I can add in / tutor for lifegain if I'm running Toxic Deluge or other cards that impose heavy costs on my life total... but it doesn't feel like there is much counterplay for poison.

From a development perspective, I do think it's nice that more aggressive decks are supported and that they have things to do in the lategame if things stall out (every proliferate is essentially a free Flame Rift)... but those aren't decks I particularly enjoy playing against either, so I would be okay with poison not getting any more support for a while.

Poison is like snow-cover lands, a mechanic showed up with power but not pervasive enough to have cards counteracting it; such cards are often sideboard inclined and powerless otherwise (Carpet of Flowers works in main because blue is included in more than 1/5 of all popular decks). If there's any card that "cleanses" poison, I imagine they'd be like Soul-Guide Lantern where you can at least draw a card even if there's no poison to remove. A Halo card, probably.

Still, I think the bigger problem here is proliferate. Each instance of proliferation adds a counter to each and every permanent/player, that is a little too much. Maybe we will see anti-poison card in form of anti-proliferate cards in MoM.