Having Your Voice Heard

[ShiroNemanji]

[mention]pokken[/mention] Gatekeeping isn't productive.

Also I suspect this needs to be repeated for the 15,000,000,000th time, the cEDH community specifically could vanish off the face of this Earth today and there will still be a munchkiny pubstomping problem at LGS period even in EDH.

The only real solutions to that is communication or the 100 card banlist the rules committee doesn't want to make.

EDH players of High-power, low-power, and all the levels of power in-between are gonna have to learn to live with each other. Treat each other with respect.

EDIT: Seen your response to MidKnight. Got to go to work will respond later.

[Neuroplasticity]

It's striking that [mention]Sheldon[/mention] posted this thread to "hear our voices", yet only responds to surface-level softballs. It's very typical of him (and by extension, the Rules Committee) to pretend to listen while ignoring the voices they encounter as they prescriptively legislate from their ivory tower.

My pressing question is this: why is there such extreme difficulty in accepting the gradient of power that exists and resistance to trying to improve games for all EDH players when bans for one area clearly (as Sheldon acknowledged Flash in his SCG article) doesn't impact the other?

[pokken]

(1) @pokken Gatekeeping isn't productive.

Also I suspect this needs to be repeated for the 15,000,000,000th time, the cEDH community specifically could vanish off the face of this Earth today and there will still be a munchkiny pubstomping problem at LGS period even in EDH.

(2) The only real solutions to that is communication or the 100 card banlist the rules committee doesn't want to make.

EDH players of High-power, low-power, and all the levels of power in-between are gonna have to learn to live with each other. Treat each other with respect.

(1) It's not gatekeeping. I'm not saying the RC shouldn't talk to the CEDH players. I'm saying there're a bunch of casual players who do not want the format to lurch competitive and we would like it if they take what the competitive players say with that in mind.

(2) This is a false dilemma. Firstly you can't ever do away with communication in EDH as it's designed. If your first goal is to create an epic experience rather than to win, you have to talk about that. No banlist is going to remove that need as long as the mission is the same.

However, truly competitive games don't require that same level of communication. You don't get together with all the players before a modern tournament and discuss what kind of games you want to play.

Every time I hear anything from CEDH players I am more and more convinced that a) there is population to support a separate format, b) their desires are completely at odds with the mission of EDH.

There is a group of CEDH players out there who are happy to just play high powered social games with the current format. I take no issue with that whatsoever. But when they start demanding the mission change, I take strong issue with that.

So my statement remains the same: Please don't change the mission, no matter what CEDH folks say.

That's not me telling you to not talk to the RC or the RC to not talk to you. It's asking them not to be convinced to change the mission.

It's striking that @Sheldon posted this thread to "hear our voices", yet only responds to surface-level softballs. It's very typical of him (and by extension, the Rules Committee) to pretend to listen while ignoring the voices they encounter as they prescriptively legislate from their ivory tower.

My pressing question is this: why is there such extreme difficulty in accepting the gradient of power that exists and resistance to trying to improve games for all EDH players when bans for one area clearly (as Sheldon acknowledged Flash in his SCG article) doesn't impact the other?

I think you're being a bit needlessly harsh with Sheldon, and this kind of attitude is not super conducive to RC involvement. He can't possibly respond to everything, but I would be very surprised not to see this dialog generate an article or a statement from the RC - that's how this works. It's a slow process by design.

I don't think anybody objects to compromise changes where they don't overlap. Go see the Flash SCD - most people are OK with it.

But there are vanishingly few options like Flash to help one without impinging on the other. These options for compromise are ridiculously rare. I couldn't name more than 5 cards.

[Neuroplasticity]

I think you're being a bit needlessly harsh with Sheldon, and this kind of attitude is not super conducive to RC involvement.

I don't think anybody objects to compromise changes where they don't overlap. Go see the Flash SCD - most people are OK with it.

Your second point is exactly why the harshness of the first is warranted. Nobody objects to a 2 mana "I win the game" spell that must be interacted with on the stack to be axed when it doesn't impact casual play. Yet the RC continues to ignore this, despite 45%+ of the poll respondents thinking it should go, and 70%+ giving the RC a low score on how involved they feel the community is in decisions. We're understandably irate.

cEDH players aren't asking for vast format changes that impact low power games. They just want their games unbroken after the RC thought it fit to put a known Legacy-shattering combo into the format.

[NotMyOwlbear]

I’m not asking for the RC to do anything that impinges on casual. I (along with some others) am asking only for those few and far between changes that can help cEDH without hurting anyone else to at least be considered.

I am also not expecting fast movement, in fact, the conservative ban rate has been possibly the best thing about the RC. Translated to action, this would likely mean banning Flash, and then possibly doing nothing else in that vein for a year.

[pokken]

Your second point is exactly why the harshness of the first is warranted. Nobody objects to a 2 mana "I win the game" spell that must be interacted with on the stack to be axed when it doesn't impact casual play. Yet the RC continues to ignore this, despite 45%+ of the poll respondents thinking it should go, and 70%+ giving the RC a low score on how involved they feel the community is in decisions. We're understandably irate.

cEDH players aren't asking for vast format changes that impact low power games. They just want their games unbroken after the RC thought it fit to put a known Legacy-shattering combo into the format.

The RC has gotten the "Keep your hands off!" message from, well, almost everyone, for many years. I don't see them changing that over night and I'm not sure they should.

I think it's a little unfair to be mad at them for not going outside of the scope of their mission - especially for not doing it quickly enough. And blaming them for "putting a legacy shattering combo" in the format is likewise I think a little unfair. They put it in the format because for years the message they've been getting is "Please don't ban strong cards for being strong, we like variety."

Wanting a change I can understand but being mad about it I don't empathize with. I wanted Paradox Engine banned for years but I never got angry** (at the RC) about it. My duty is to take responsibility for my own fun and not play with PE decks if I don't want to, while advocating for the ban if I want it.

** I did get very disappointed one time when I ran into an awesome Urza equipment deck that won with Paradox Engine out of nowhere when he woulda won anyway.

[NotMyOwlbear]

What reason is there to not ban Flash, outside of philosophical posturing or spite?

Occasionally acknowledging that there are other ways to play doesn’t require throwing out the mission statement. It would involve a tiny addendum at most, and could be carefully qualified to be clear that no actions will be taken that can realistically harm casual play.

[FireStorm4056]

Oh you don't hate us, you just have a hope NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO US OR CONSIDERS OUR PERSPECTIVE. Got it. Thank you so much. Yes that is comforting to hear. Am I taking crazy pills or is this type of toxicity just... wildly unacceptable at all levels.

cEDH players ARE EDH PLAYERS. I don't know why you can't understand or choose not to accept that.

I'm really sorry you feel that I'm being toxic. I feel like it's reasonable to have a difference of opinion on this topic.

At its most fundamental level I do not think CEDH is EDH any more than kitchen table is vintage because they share the same ruleset. And that's the point we differ on. It's not that I don't think you guys are human it's that I differ on whether what you're playing is EDH.

The changes you are requesting would flip the script and exclude casual players for the sake of competitive players. If you have a great plan for peaceful coexistence I'm happy to hear it, but not one that swaps one form of exclusion for another.

Stop championing this idea of "Casual VS Competitive". You're firing people up because you keep offering "us vs them" analogies and suggesting CEDH will encroach on, and kill off, casual commander. You are creating unnecessary division where there is none, based on a handful of negative experiences with unsportsmanlike pubstompers.

All we are saying is, "Listen to BOTH the casual and CEDH players, and make decisions that result in the best outcomes for ALL." We're not asking CEDH to take priority, and more importantly, we acknowledge that it would be a mistake for competitive-oriented decisions to take precedence over casual. We simply want our opinions to be heard and valued. And, if there is a decision that would heavily benefit the competitive community without any casual fallout, it makes sense to strongly entertain it.

This quote from you encapsulates why many are bothered by your posts:

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

At this point it's clear you have a chip on your shoulder about CEDH. We get it, you don't like how we play. So don't play with us! That's the beauty of the format, and we don't want to change that. We simply want to have our fun too, at a different table than you.

The point of this thread is for us to communicate our opinions on how the RC can improve moving forward. We have worked very hard to do so, offering calm and thoughtful perspectives and suggestions. At this point it doesn't appear you're offering any constructive criticism to Sheldon, you're just trying to stir the pot up by arguing with us, striking down our opinions, and explaining how wrong you think we are.

Everyone else is addressing Sheldon with thoughtful feedback and individual perpsectives/opinions. You (edit: and ilovesaprolings) are the only ones seizing the opportunity to flip this thread into arguments with multiple people at once. Let's stop that, yes? If you want to engage people, PM them. Otherwise, stop responding here unless it's feedback directly relevant to, and addressed at, Sheldon.

[Azerim]

Going to keep this brief because I'm not Sheldon nor RC, but I do want to respond/comment on this:

1. cEDH is definitely part of the format, but not the main part, so anything which affects it should be almost an afterthought. For example, a small group of players enjoy stax and land destruction, so every once in a while WotC will design a card for them. BUT, they make sure that it isn't something which will negatively warp Standard. Similarly, the RC shouldn't be afraid to ban or unban something to keep the cEDH players happy and diverse, but not at the expense of the majority of players. PE was a ban which I felt hit all levels of play, and not banning it because of the affect it would have on cEDH players would have been irresponsible. They also shouldn't worry about affecting the price for the same reason Wizards doesn't worry about it in Modern bans. Overall though, I agree that cEDH should be included more.

2. Cut us some slack with not being well trafficked, we just opened a week ago :p But more seriously, if the Reddit mods are going to be light handed and allow users to flame and insult the RC, then why SHOULD they use that forum if they'll have to just wade through a lot of vitriol-filled posts just to find a hidden gem? My suspicion is that if your mods were willing to put in the hard work to change the behavior of users then the RC would be more active there. It's what I did on MTGS when I first came on staff and the results spoke for themself.

3. I don't think that this is anywhere near accurate, no matter how many people claim it or how Sheldon's words get twisted.

1. Paradox Engine IMO simply wasn't broken, or unfun enough compared to other things on the banlist, it was mostly a solid value card in EDH that had possibility of creating a long turn, the reasons for it's ban were a bit too weak. That said the ban had a huge impact on the cEDH. Small positive on casual, huge on cEDH. Banning hulk would have a huge (liekly) positive imapct on cEDH and no impact on casual EDH. I love both parts of the format and want both of them to thrive but each one should be aware of the second one. Currently there could be a ban or an unban that was nice in EDH and broke cEDH in half. cEDH for sure should be less important than casual, but impact on it should be considered.

2. "Cut us some slack with not being well trafficked, we just opened a week ago :p" - fair enough.
Reddit is a site with huge reach - that's the important part. I believe in being able to have some worth wile discussions there. You are a part of a new Magic related forum, so you will likely disagree with that. I was talking about making a subreddit for the RC to be able to have their voice be heard, they could even disable posting from people outside the RC and CAG, and they could have a strict moderating team. Most people knew about the newest banlist update because of social media - Twitter, Reddit and Facebook. If you want to make a poll and see what people really think, social media is the best place to post it. Most people were able to see posts on this site thanks to social media like Reddit, without it, I would have never been able to see the last poll on opinions on the ban list and this post right here.

3. I can happily disagree on that.

[pokken]

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

At this point it's clear you have a chip on your shoulder about CEDH. We get it, you don't like how we play. So don't play with us! That's the beauty of the format, and we don't want to change that. We simply want to have our fun too, at a different table than you.

The point of this thread is for us to communicate our opinions on how the RC can improve moving forward. We have worked very hard to do so, offering calm and thoughtful perspectives and suggestions. At this point it doesn't appear you're offering any constructive criticism to Sheldon, you're just trying to stir the pot up by striking down our opinions and explaining how wrong you think we are.

I have no chip on my shoulder about CEDH except insofar as it starts to affect the format at large - by all means play what you want to play.

But you're right, you guys have every right to communicate your opinions. I've said what I have to say and you can get at it I guess

[BaronCappuccino]

It would probably be more productive to petition the competitive minded Duel Commander offshoot, who split because of exactly this continuing debate, to consider multiplayer in their decisions than it would be to try and get traditional Commander to be what the first wave of competitive dissidents couldn't make it. In the mean time, just house-ban Flash in your network of cEDH gathering areas. If you really do have thousands of likeminded individuals meeting in defined places to foster cEDH, your problem could be solved in a heartbeat. If none of the other cEDH players - the thousands - would go for such a change, the last thing the RC needs is thousands of pissed off cEDH players in return for placating a handful here.

[FireStorm4056]

It would probably be more productive to petition the competitive minded Duel Commander offshoot, who split because of exactly this continuing debate, to consider multiplayer in their decisions than it would be to try and get traditional Commander to be what the first wave of competitive dissidents couldn't make it. In the mean time, just house-ban Flash in your network of cEDH gathering areas. If you really do have thousands of likeminded individuals meeting in defined places to foster cEDH, your problem could be solved in a heartbeat. If none of the other cEDH players - the thousands - would go for such a change, the last thing the RC needs is thousands of pissed off cEDH players in return for placating a handful here.

House Rules aren't viable in CEDH for a few reasons. First of all, players can simply refuse to recognize them, which causes trouble for everyone. If not everyone adopts it, then it doesn't achieve the desired effect. On the other hand, if everyone somehow does adopt a universal "House Rule," that would mean we've splintered into a different format. People may still name it a "House Rule," but in practice we would no longer be EDH. Codifying a House Rule literally creates a different format, and splintered formats just don't survive (Tiny Leaders, Frontier, etc), so this is not something we can afford to do. This is why the RC is so important and why we rely on the standard ruleset. At the end of the day it's crucial that we are playing the same exact format as all of the casual EDH players - that's what we all want to do, just at a higher power level.

Duel Commander split away because properly balancing a 1v1 format requires a massively different banlist. It wasn't due to disagreement, but because the format wasn't remotely viable without becoming its own thing.

[cryogen]

I think you're being a bit needlessly harsh with Sheldon, and this kind of attitude is not super conducive to RC involvement.

I don't think anybody objects to compromise changes where they don't overlap. Go see the Flash SCD - most people are OK with it.

Your second point is exactly why the harshness of the first is warranted. Nobody objects to a 2 mana "I win the game" spell that must be interacted with on the stack to be axed when it doesn't impact casual play. Yet the RC continues to ignore this, despite 45%+ of the poll respondents thinking it should go, and 70%+ giving the RC a low score on how involved they feel the community is in decisions. We're understandably irate.

cEDH players aren't asking for vast format changes that impact low power games. They just want their games unbroken after the RC thought it fit to put a known Legacy-shattering combo into the format.

Before my poll I have never heard anyone complain about Flash. Not saying that it wasn't a problem, but if you look at the old polls I linked, Flash wasn't a blip on the radar. So while I think this has been an absolute eye opener about the concerns cEDH has with the card, it's not really fair to say Sheldon hasn't done anything about it... one week after a ban list announcement. Let's wait and see what happens after they've had time to discuss this poll and resulting dialogue, shall we?

[Taleran]

So this is a point that I have come to again and again over the years and I feel it becomes more relevant as the years go on.

EDH was EDH I don't think that format exists anymore and has not existed since 2013 the year that Commander became a yearly product from Wizards of the Coast.

I will preface the rest of this by saying what I am about to does not mean I think WoTC should take over Commander nor do I really have an opinion on how better or worse they would do at this.

The title of this thread is ironic because while asking if others are being heard I think the RC is not being heard and is being left in the dust by the changing face of this format and of the cards being added directly into Commander in precons and the power creep of the game of magic over time.

A majority of people who play Commander at the game store I play at most regularly would only know the RC as the people who choose what gets banned because they started the format.

There is no philosophy there is no casual or competitive there is this is the format this section of the group at the store like because it is multiplayer it is the new Kitchen Table magic, the non Sanctioned format where you can pull out all the cool and powerful and weird cards and see how they interact.

And this is reflected in how Commander is put across to the most people, this from last years decks description



That first paragraph is what Commander is to the most people who play it. I think everyone trying to argue for some spirit or philosophy or you aren't playing Commander because of how strong your decks are has largely been left behind by Commander at large, the RC just gets to hang on and be heard because every so often a banning will happen.

[RxPhantom]

I've been saying this for years, but it bears repeating:

The format has outgrown the RC's ability to manage it.

They do the best they can, but this CAG doesn't feel too consequential, and they have no data to go on. They have to make sense of thousands of players' opinions, and I'm sure it dissolves into noise at some point. The only way I can envision them getting said data is revamping their terrible forums and then running polls and such. When it comes to transparency, I'd like updated explanations as to why each card on the banlist is there, one by one.

Regarding cEDH players: do what you want. Seriously, enjoy and play what you want, but you can't expect the Rules Committee to make decisions with only you all in mind. Your goals and theirs are diametrically opposed. Did cEDH pop into existence when Paradox Engine was printed? Am I seriously to believe that it has crippled the format?

And let's leave Flash alone. I do cool things with it that don't break games in half.

[ilovesaprolings]

Oh you don't hate us, you just have a hope NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO US OR CONSIDERS OUR PERSPECTIVE. Got it. Thank you so much. Yes that is comforting to hear. Am I taking crazy pills or is this type of toxicity just... wildly unacceptable at all levels.

cEDH players ARE EDH PLAYERS. I don't know why you can't understand or choose not to accept that.

Man i don't get why you are crying. Nobody ever listens to you? Are you not enjoying a format where you can eliminate multiple players on turn 4 or even less? Are you not enjoying a format full of instant win combos, broken mana rocks, efficient tutors and so on?
Why are you saying cEDH are neglected? They can play competitively. They do it all the time. Your format has less banned cards than legacy and modern by far and is probably more "broken". What do you want more? vintage?

Before my poll I have never heard anyone complain about Flash. Not saying that it wasn't a problem, but if you look at the old polls I linked, Flash wasn't a blip on the radar. So while I think this has been an absolute eye opener about the concerns cEDH has with the card, it's not really fair to say Sheldon hasn't done anything about it... one week after a ban list announcement. Let's wait and see what happens after they've had time to discuss this poll and resulting dialogue, shall we?

I still don't why cEDH players are hating flash. Is the point of cEDH playing broken things? Hermit druid, food chain, derevi stax and other hell's spawns? Why flash is suddenly so bad for competitive players? Don't they have force of will, spell snare, swan song, the now force of despair and so on?

[Azerim]

[mention]ilovesaprolings[/mention]
Your comment made my smile a little
It's like saying, "OMG how the F do you enjoy Legacy, it's all broken combos that end the game turn 4. WTF, why do you cry that there is a dominant deck in the meta? Isn't the point of legacy to do broken stuff?"

[ElectricTuba]

Oh you don't hate us, you just have a hope NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO US OR CONSIDERS OUR PERSPECTIVE. Got it. Thank you so much. Yes that is comforting to hear. Am I taking crazy pills or is this type of toxicity just... wildly unacceptable at all levels.

cEDH players ARE EDH PLAYERS. I don't know why you can't understand or choose not to accept that.

Man i don't get why you are crying. Nobody ever listens to you? Are you not enjoying a format where you can eliminate multiple players on turn 4 or even less? Are you not enjoying a format full of instant win combos, broken mana rocks, efficient tutors and so on?
Why are you saying cEDH are neglected? They can play competitively. They do it all the time. Your format has less banned cards than legacy and modern by far and is probably more "broken". What do you want more? vintage?

Before my poll I have never heard anyone complain about Flash. Not saying that it wasn't a problem, but if you look at the old polls I linked, Flash wasn't a blip on the radar. So while I think this has been an absolute eye opener about the concerns cEDH has with the card, it's not really fair to say Sheldon hasn't done anything about it... one week after a ban list announcement. Let's wait and see what happens after they've had time to discuss this poll and resulting dialogue, shall we?

I still don't why cEDH players are hating flash. Is the point of cEDH playing broken things? Hermit druid, food chain, derevi stax and other hell's spawns? Why flash is suddenly so bad for competitive players? Don't they have force of will, spell snare, swan song, the now force of despair and so on?

As an aside, Force of Despair can't answer hulk lines with Grand abolisher.

Please don't be so combative, I think it's pretty well understood that no matter what power level you play at, one deck that dominates all the others is unhealthy for a meta.

At non-cEDH power levels you can just upgrade your deck or ask them to bring it down, but for cEDH there is literally no higher to go and as mentioned previously widely house ruling cards away just splits the format (which is not good).

To answer your question, what we want more is to be able to play a wide range of very powerful decks in a multiplayer setting without having to arbitrarily exclude cards that the rules committee for some reason won't touch in order to create a diverse meta.

If you ban a card for power level reasons, you adjust the gameplay at high power tables.
If you ban a card because it doesn't fit the spirit of the format (whatever that means), you adjust gameplay at lower power tables and sometimes high power as well.
Why is one of these fine to do, but the one that effects fewer people is not?

[pokken]

I think there's a thread in there somewhere about the arguments pro and against splitting the format. I am not convinced by the arguments I've heard so far that it's obviously bad. I'd be interested in who we think it's bad for and why

I do think it would be a very valuable topic. I'd start it but at this point I'm afraid it'd get egged

[tstorm823]

That's it. I'm making an account and posting. I can only take insensitive, rude, and hateful comments of Pokken for so long before I officially feel completely dehumanized for enjoying EDH differently.

I would like to make two suggestions to you:

1) If you have something valuable to say, don't wait until you can't take it anymore. Have confidence in the value of your words rather than hold them in until you can't take it. If something pokken says upsets you, you can confront it right away and discourse with a human rather than build up a villain in your mind and prepare to fight. I promise that the person you think is degrading you holds reasonable opinions and is just using strong language, though not as strong as yours, to express them.

2) Later in your post, you say you won't even start on the damage done by banning paradox engine. Why not? I personally know less than nothing about the impact of PE on cedh and would be fascinated to read about it. And as it turns out, this website has a whole sub sub forum dedicated to commander rules discussion where it could have an entire permanent thread to talk about.

[toctheyounger]

This got heated, and I don't think anyone is surprised by that, sadly.

Preface for whatever I end up with here - I have nothing but respect for the CAG, RC and Sheldon himself as the most vocal and visible member of these groups. I think for the most part these folk have done a great job mediating the format we all love, and they're all deserving of our support for what is undoubtedly a difficult, and mostly thankless task. It's not ok for Sheldon to have had the experience of a death threat over the weekend, and I certainly hope it never happens again to him, or anyone else in our community. Regardless of our differences we're a family of gamers in this format and we are better than that, every single one of us.

It's true that you can play a weaker combo deck in Commander, just like you can play a weaker mono-R deck in standard or a weaker graveyard deck in Modern. Every strategy can be played with restraint. But if you were to pick a strategy in Commander to consider "the nuclear option", the "destroy my opponents no matter the cost" option, it would likely be combo or stax. If you are a combo player, it's important for you to recognize that your preferred style of play has that advantage. Commander is not just the last refuge for combo players to play goofy combos. It's also the last refuge for timmy leviathan players, or vorthos theme deck players, etc.

I understand that comment by Sheldon can sound like it's saying "if your favorite win condition is combo, you're not welcome", but I don't think it was meant that way and I don't think you're obligated to read it that way. The truth is that if you're playing a powerful strategy in Commander, especially if you're a dedicated combo player, the responsibility is yours to recognize if what you're doing has become degenerate in a way that makes other people's decks nonviable and then restrain yourself. "I'm not demonizing combos but don't build your deck to go straight for the nuclear option" is not terribly far off that message.

This is pretty important stuff, and mostly hits the nail on the head.

It's funny, this EDH/cEDH schism. Purely because both sides want the same thing, and we still can't reach an accord - Casual players wanna cruise, competitive players wanna compete, and they don't want to mix the two (for the most part - I'm aware there's a lot of grey here, not so much black and white). From what I've read and experienced, cEDH players who pubstomb noobs are mostly a-holes, and the concept of cEDH is firmly NOT to hand out beatings, it's to compete at a top level. Those who inflict that level of competition on those who don't agree to it prior are obviously misguided and, to my mind anyone who finds themselves at the mercy of this sort of person has every right to call them out, scoop, call a draw, whatever the situation demands; you don't need to suffer so someone else enjoys themselves. But let's not tar all cEDH players with this brush, because pubstomping isn't generally what they represent, and they're not total dicks by definition. Lots of them are nice people who just want a different thing to other people, and they shouldn't be judged for wanting it. Nor should casual players be judged for wanting to cruise, we all want what we want, and we all just want equal footing.

I think as a valid part of our format cEDH players have every right to have their voice heard, just like anyone else. I have every confidence that that's something the RC are interested in so long as these players are part of the format we all love. How that looks, I don't know. Perhaps these polls could be conducted more regularly, perhaps the RC could take submissions for questions/comments/suggestions from the cEDH community, I don't know. There's options around and I'm sure they will be looked into.

I think the one thing I'm sure of is that we are listened to as a community to at least a reasonable degree - there's no way the RC and CAG would put up with flak for nothing, I sure wouldn't. Whether or not that is made evident is purely based on your interactions with them, and it's outside of anyone's control for them to literally reach everyone, our community is too large, too diverse, and present on too many media formats. It's awesome that this is the case, but it's problematic too.

Winding all of this back to Sheldon's OP - perhaps something like a quarterly survey with a qualitative/quantitative portion would be a reasonable, functional, work-efficient way to get feedback from all quarters? Maybe interspersed between RC/CAG meetings so that you guys have some data to go over. It's maybe one of the few ways we have to get data; it's a double-edged sword being a casual format. Having a qualitative section opens up options for people to take to their soapbox should they want to, or even more regular forum conversations such as this one could be a way of delving deeper to the 'why' of people's opinions. Granted, there's often a lot of vitriol that comes with either of these suggestions, so I can understand if they're not attractive options.

There's bound to be problems with that suggestion, it's the only one that comes to mind for me. For what it's worth though, I don't think there's a major case of lack of representation in our format, I just think due to the size and variety of our community's members this appears to be the case. I also think a lot of the hurt feelings around differing expectations from the format come down to lack of communication, so it's important that that be a strong theme for everyone involved in our community moving forward. I realise it's not always feasible, but we owe it to our fellow community and format members to try.

[RxPhantom]

It's not ok for Sheldon to have had the experience of a death threat over the weekend, and I certainly hope it never happens again to him, or anyone else in our community.

Holy smokes! He got a death threat?! I definitely missed that. That's positively insane.

What does it say about our community when threats arise from something as simple as a card's ban? Really though, how awful is that? Someone can't handle a card being banned so they respond by attempting to instill real fear into a real human? Ugh. Gross and sad on many levels.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, pretty nuts. Apologies to Sheldon if he didn't want it specifically mentioned - I assume it's ok because it was on twitter/fb.

[Hermes_]

If I might make a suggestion regarding communication

[mention]papa_funk[/mention] [mention]Sheldon[/mention]

I think this might be a good time for a Q&A,maybe from Papa this time and done here. I say here because, as has been pointed out MTGCommander is retro and not in a good way. We give a week for questions to be added to a thread which after the week is closed then a thread that is just answers to the questions or submitting the answers to a mod who then post them.

[Kelzam]

Before content creators started to push people towards the idea of cEDH and it was realized as a subculture of it's own, we didn't have this level of divisiveness or heat directed at the RC, and it's getting tiring. There will always be different levels of competitiveness and opinion, but when you give something a label or umbrella for people to get under, they feel they have a right to protect it and stake a claim for their space. The problems with catering to cEDH aren't just about pubstomping. There will always be some difference in power level, play style and expectations. Those things can be handled with open communication. The real problem that has festered in the EDH community is creating an entire subculture around a mentality that lends itself to being assertive, overbearing and demanding despite fostering a mentality that goes in the face of the actual mission of the format; and, then deciding they should be included, too, despite an attitude and idea of how they want to play that is completely opposite of the format's mission statement. Oil and water don't go together, and just like you can't force them to work, there isn't a world where EDH and cEDH players are not constantly stepping on one another's toes with their needs.