Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and friends along with Buried Alive have amazing synergy with Tombstone Stairwell. Three extra creatures in the graveyard to start with isn't something to dismiss, but the ability to so reliably get Corpse Knight in play is amazing!

The large numbers of cards Varina can loot with Stairwell out can really make things happen. If Phyrexian Altar comes along, either Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight or Changeling Outcast just wins on the spot.

[plaganegra]

@pzbw7z it is definitely a remnant from the past that remained but yeah you are right it should be an underground river or another untapped black source. The tower to me is no different than the aqueduct and I would prefer the bounce land by far actually. They both cannot be used on T1 and CIPT which is the entire drawback for me personally. I don't think I have ever mulled just from the aqueduct, but it has definitely slowed me down more than it has sped me up on average if I had to guess. It hasn't stood out as bad in a long time during gameplay which is probably why it is there. When I was just updating my list I didn't even look at most of the lands outside of the colorless ones because THAT has caused several mulligans actually so I went down to 3 "colorless" lands (Nykthos, Grotto, Tower)

Thanks for the fix!! This was driving me insane last night - guess we can all find a reason to dislike un cards lol

Really appreciate the feedback thanks

[plaganegra]

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and friends along with Buried Alive have amazing synergy with Tombstone Stairwell. Three extra creatures in the graveyard to start with isn't something to dismiss, but the ability to so reliably get Corpse Knight in play is amazing!

The large numbers of cards Varina can loot with Stairwell out can really make things happen. If Phyrexian Altar comes along, either Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight or Changeling Outcast just wins on the spot.

Haakon just adds so many more options from the GY and Buried Alive can do so many things if you are building around your GY.

Tombstone Stairwell is such an amazing card in this deck when you are looting every turn and tutoring up even more gas into your GY. I just added back in dread return because of how much sac fodder my list can generate and it does play very well with intuition too. All of it is related and highly synergistic with Varina!

[ChocoDude]

Do any of you have experience using both Moxfield and Archidekt? If so, thoughts and comparison?

[ChocoDude]

@plaganegra I'd probably list Cyclonic as 7 cmc and Winds of Abandon as 6. But you may occasionally use Winds for 2, if so, you could make it 5 or even 4.

[Reya]

After all that brainstorming about playing some sac outlets or not, and about adding a "free recursion package", I'm really asking myself if I should give another try to the recursion team: Silversmote Ghoul, Poxwalkers and Prized Amalgam. I definitely can see a easy snowballing effect here. The main downside is playing some very bad cards (outside of the recursion).

But I will need to cut through the sac outlet package or maybe even cut Lord of the Undead (a pet car for me!) and Midnight Reaper (as pokken do, seems it's not so useful to have redundant draw effect).

In the same time, when you run Dictate of Erebos, it's really powerful to have access to multiple sac effects. You can control the board so easily with that enchantment. For me it's like permanent wrath.

And another thing, do I am the only to be in love with Black Market Connections ? This card it totally crazy. Esper struggles to ramp and Market is the perfect fix for that. On top of that, you draw and create bodies for Varina. It's pure value for us and we can so easily mitigate the loss of life. I think the only two games I casted it, it won me the game because it gave me a huge advantage over my opponents.

[pokken]

After all that brainstorming about playing some sac outlets or not, and about adding a "free recursion package", I'm really asking myself if I should give another try to the recursion team: Silversmote Ghoul, Poxwalkers and Prized Amalgam. I definitely can see a easy snowballing effect here. The main downside is playing some very bad cards (outside of the recursion).

But I will need to cut through the sac outlet package or maybe even cut Lord of the Undead (a pet car for me!) and Midnight Reaper (as pokken do, seems it's not so useful to have redundant draw effect).

In the same time, when you run Dictate of Erebos, it's really powerful to have access to multiple sac effects. You can control the board so easily with that enchantment. For me it's like permanent wrath.

And another thing, do I am the only to be in love with Black Market Connections ? This card it totally crazy. Esper struggles to ramp and Market is the perfect fix for that. On top of that, you draw and create bodies for Varina. It's pure value for us and we can so easily mitigate the loss of life. I think the only two games I casted it, it won me the game because it gave me a huge advantage over my opponents.

1. I think the auto-recurring creatures can be fantastic, if playing them should probably be on Tormod, the Desecrator who is very good. I'll have to think about them.

2. I somehow never noticed that black market connections makes changelings. That is...really farking good. I'll have to get one out for Varina and have a think. The only mark against it is that it doesn't make a 3 drop that can attack for Varina, but the ramp and draw upside might be worth it?

[devilcatz]

One turn to get BMC to work.. hmm.. May be delaying the plan?
Then the changeling takes another turn to be able to attack. That makes 2 turns…hmm… I prob won't want it that way.

[plaganegra]

After all that brainstorming about playing some sac outlets or not, and about adding a "free recursion package", I'm really asking myself if I should give another try to the recursion team: Silversmote Ghoul, Poxwalkers and Prized Amalgam. I definitely can see a easy snowballing effect here. The main downside is playing some very bad cards (outside of the recursion).

1. I think the auto-recurring creatures can be fantastic, if playing them should probably be on Tormod, the Desecrator who is very good. I'll have to think about them.

Tormod can be quite oppressive with the free GY dudes and can take over a game very quickly if left around for a couple turn cycles. I think of Tormod, Stairwell, Wilhelt, and Necroduality as all kind of filling a similar role - flood the board with tokens. I might not need all 4 of those and duality is probably the weakest one.

@Reya the only reason that these creatures "look very bad" is because you are factoring in their mana cost which is an illusion with these creatures. They are free. Especially Silversmote Ghoul (an all-star in my eyes) since it requires nothing special to come back at all and gaining that life is super common in this deck with Varina's triggered ability. I use the draw effect quite a lot too. Prized Amalgam and especially Poxwalkers involve more deck construction hoops to jump through like including a suite of GY tutors and paying attention to what you can add in that will trigger them. Amalgam gets much better with bladewhip transmogrant that was just spoiled also..

I am still not sure about poxwalkers, but I think it will fit when I try it and continue to refine things. Amalgam has earned its spot time and time again. Previously my most common buried alive package was gravecrawler, amalgam, ghoul. Now I would sooner grapb poxwalkers because it will trigger for free of the gravecrawler right away and the ghoul can be drawn at any time organically and put to use without any support.

With the whole package I think it is important to consider it places even more pressure on the player to curve out with 1-2drop zombies and get Varina out as quickly as possible to start looting. I am considering adding dreadmalkin to my list to increase the zombie count and the chances I will have a 1-drop zombie in my opening hand.

@pokken you are super good with curve stuff and deck construction - what is a reasonable % chance of casting Varina on T4? Right now based on moxfield list I am at about 60% chance to cast Varina on T4.

I include nightscape familiar just to help with this even more.

I do think I need one more sac outlet in my build. Looking at nantuko husk or altar of dementia - wondering if milling myself is a viable line of play (seems like it might be?)

[plaganegra]

One turn to get BMC to work.. hmm.. May be delaying the plan?
Then the changeling takes another turn to be able to attack. That makes 2 turns…hmm… I prob won't want it that way.

I agree, for me it is a little too slow although it us undeniably versatile and strong to include if you are not trying to play super fast. It has the same problem phyrexian arena does with speed, but has a higher ceiling because of the changeling mainly. paying three mana to get a treasure token next turn is pretty slow.

[plaganegra]

@plaganegra I'd probably list Cyclonic as 7 cmc and Winds of Abandon as 6. But you may occasionally use Winds for 2, if so, you could make it 5 or even 4.

I do usually want to cast cyclonic overload when I do but sometimes use the first mode just to slow someone down or make an opportunistic play. winds I more often use as a bad path to exile effect but do use the other mode too.

The reason I changed the cmc of some of the cards to zero is because they are virtually always free when I use them and I am paying attention mainly to the permanents to see what my creature curve looks like mostly. The average mana value of the deck isn't really that useful to me other then to note if it is going up or down when I make changes.

Wonder, filth (if you want to double up), amalgam, silversmote, poxwalkers should be considered free for curve purposes imo

I think my list is in a good spot now with everyone's help - added the link to my signature. Really appreciate everyone's thoughts

[ChocoDude]

@plaganegra Are you generally ahead on life totals such that Shepherd of Rot doesn't hurt you enough to take you out of the game? And thanks for that blurb about Nightscape Familiar. I suspected you wanted to cast Varina sooner with it, but then thought maybe it was for other cards in your list. However, I only counted 7 others that it could help so I was doubtful about how helpful it was.

Lastly, you seem light on spot removal although the 4 counters and the non-overloaded wipes could work. Has that been much of an issue for you?

[plaganegra]

@plaganegra Are you generally ahead on life totals such that Shepherd of Rot doesn't hurt you enough to take you out of the game? And thanks for that blurb about Nightscape Familiar. I suspected you wanted to cast Varina sooner with it, but then thought maybe it was for other cards in your list. However, I only counted 7 others that it could help so I was doubtful about how helpful it was.

Lastly, you seem light on spot removal although the 4 counters and the non-overloaded wipes could work. Has that been much of an issue for you?

Honestly Shepherd of Rot is so powerful of an effect that I keep it in. It has won me a few games over the years but it is like unleashing an atomic bomb so you need to do it really carefully or you will get blown up too lol. It is something I would rather have access to as an alternate win condition than leave out. I am generally ahead on life totals when I play this deck though. The amount of swarming that an happen in the mid-late game generates a ton of lifegain.

One of the nice things about this style of Varina deck is that not every single zombie needs to make an impact every game. Most of them are just fine getting lost in the horde until things kick off and then you can guess the key role players. Being able to loot and select what you want is such an incredible advantage to playing this commander. It really emphasizes more looting to me as the primary goal. The win presents itself quickly and it is not always the same. Most often it is outvalue opponents and then drain them or get a mass reanimate with gray merchant in the GY.

Nightscape Familiar is just a zombie dude that helps me play Varina quicker and more reliably on curve that is correct. Any other benefit is purely coincidence. It turns sideways just like all the rest too and after varina hits I attack with it freely just for the loot.

This style of deck is more linear aggro and less midrange but has elements of both. The cost is less room for interaction, and requiring a more focused build to make sure everything works without friction.

I always want to add more spot removal to the deck and it is tough to find room. In my playgroup what I run seems to be just fine most of the time unless we are playing more competitively then it is definitely a weakness. In those circumstances if I feel we are racing to the finish at the table or there is impending doom I just turn to combo and that usually does the trick just fine. That being said I love the way this strategy plays so much that I am more than happy to not win every game I play with it if there is something I cannot deal with. I try to have at least one solution for everything inside the deck with a few catchall cards. The counterspells are really helpful in these situations especially since they are so easy to cast people think they are safe from any interaction from me. Also, one of the other people at the table at times lol.

The last time I cast an overloaded winds of abandon everyone was really surprised and it pretty much won me the game.

To @Reya's point the best removal is probably in the form of grave pact or dictate of erebos. Both are oppressive in this kind of deck - so much so for my group that they cannot handle me playing multiple decks including those cards so I leave them to my mono black decks. My playstyle in general is very token-sac-aristocrat-staxxy so I have to be careful how much of that I sprinkle around my decks lol. I play both in my Yawgmoth, Thran Physician Deck

GY hate that is really tough to get around like grafdigger's cage or rest in peace is a problem but I do not see those too often. Last time I saw that sort of effect the game was a slower game anyway and I just played very fair and still won with zombie beats. It wasa version of the deck from like a year ago and god-eternal oketra was actually the all star in that game because nobody could deal with it at the time. I don't run it anymore, but I do miss that card...

[pokken]

@pokken you are super good with curve stuff and deck construction - what is a reasonable % chance of casting Varina on T4? Right now based on moxfield list I am at about 60% chance to cast Varina on T4.

On turn 4? I think we should be like, 90% or so to cast Varina on turn 4 with a single mulligan; that's my target anyway. Sometimes that means keeping a 2 lander and Ponder or a 3 lander and lucksacking a little though.

I tend to be a bit overly cautious though and I try to build my decks to not need to mull to 6 almost ever.

You can try my list here: https://deckbox.org/sets/3016407/tools

My "mana fixing" package is:

* 37 lands (36 + agadeem's)
* 7x 1 mana fixing: Brainstorm Ponder Land Tax Tithe Vampiric Tutor Weathered Wayfarer Skullclamp
* 2x 2 mana fixing: Demonic Tutor Arcane Denial
* 4x 3 mana fixing: Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight Intuition Sevinne's Reclamation Crucible of Worlds

Of those, with 44 "lands and 1 drops that usually double as lands" puts me at about 81% of getting a combination of lands and 1 drops that mostly double as lands, little less if you aren't willing to Skullclamp something for science (but I am). Stacking on the 3 drops that make 3 landers keepable and 2 drops that make 3 landers keepable, and mulligans, I think I am pretty darn close to 90%+.

None of that really takes into account the potential for color whiff, or not getting white but having Tithe, but I think mulligans more than account for that difference.

[plaganegra]

@pokken thanks!

It seems that moxfield does not count mana rocks as mana sources - just lands? so I did an experiment and started swapping out things for swamps and this is what I got:

chance to cast Varina on T4:
74% - swapping my 5 rocks for swamps
77% - swapping tithe and land tax for swamps
83% - swapping frantic search, intuition, and skullclamp for swamps

I took the liberty of dropping your list into moxfield to see what their tool predicts just based on mana sources and you scored a 65%
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/A69VXzh6Lk24_fr4081JYw

I am not sure we can count cantrips for lands though unless they dig at least 3 deep (which many of yours do) since the odds of hitting a land is roughly 1/3 with each card seen and needs to account for variance and colors to cast also. But just to see I swapped everything in your list being counted as a land for a swamp and I got almost exactly 90% lol - so that's a pretty good guess on your part! lol

I am not sure this is how it should all be counted though. Cards that are not mana sources themselves should probably be counted as a fraction of a land to account for deck variance and also ability to cast them with the right colors.

I think I am happy with approx 75% not factoring in any cantripping or tutoring etc. I might go back up to 36 lands just to hedge it a little bit. I think I probably do not need 2 islands and 2 plains either. Those should be multicolor lands that tap for black probably?

Also considering that if you are jumping through hoops to hit your 4th land drop you are not playing zombies, so casting Varina will have no impact on the board since you don't have as many dudes to swing with to get the loot train going.

I returned both lists back to normal on moxfield after conducting my experiment fyi

edit - I swapped mox diamond out for windswept heath (didn't realize I was mising this fetch until looking over your list). This discussion made me realize you cannot really count on mox diamond to help you hit your T4 Varina on curve. It is solely a speed play, which doesnt seem worth it here.

[RedCheese]

I apreciate a lot that Varinna is this belvoed to keep this thread always active

[pokken]

I am not sure this is how it should all be counted though. Cards that are not mana sources themselves should probably be counted as a fraction of a land to account for deck variance and also ability to cast them with the right colors.

So one thing to keep in mind is that there are effects like Land Tax and Tithe that count for 2+ lands, so I think it's safe to just assume all of your cantrips of 1 cmc are 1-for-1 with a land as a kind of rule of thumb. Factoring in mulligans I think it's fine to avoid doing stuff like mana pip probabilities and stuff in excess.

That said, I have plotted my color distributions in general and you want to aim for in the vicinity of 20 of each color source to ensure getting that color in your opener most of the time. Because of all the fetchlands in my build, I have about:

16 untapped white sources, which is a little low for wayfarer/tithe/land tax but pretty close to good enough
18 untapped blue sources, which closer, but could stand to go higher

(and a buttload of black sources, closer to 22 or some odd).

What gets me across the finish line there is, I think, that my odds of having *either* white or blue are pretty high and some of those self-fix, like if I have blue only and Ponder and want to cast a Tithe that's probably keepable (ponder is pretty likely of getting another land).

But that said, it would probably be a really good idea for me to cut Cavern of Souls one of the big mana lands for more blue/white sources. Maybe a Forbidden Orchard since I can usually not give a crap about chump blocks since I just want to attack for cards.

[plaganegra]

But that said, it would probably be a really good idea for me to cut Cavern of Souls one of the big mana lands for more blue/white sources. Maybe a Forbidden Orchard since I can usually not give a crap about chump blocks since I just want to attack for cards.

It is funny you mention this I was eyeballing the exact same card for my list lol. I was just trying to think about that 1/1 and I couldn't really think through the downside easily.

This discussion is extremely helpful in rounding things out so I can optimize the manabase in my sub-optimal Varina deck lol.

[Falkenbach]

If you really wanna be sure you can playtest some games on moxfield , thats what i generally do when i test my Varina and other decks out,
Springleaf Drum has also been doing good work making some zombies into mana dorks.

[Reya]

One turn to get BMC to work.. hmm.. May be delaying the plan?
Then the changeling takes another turn to be able to attack. That makes 2 turns…hmm… I prob won't want it that way.

I think you underestimate the power of Black Market Connections. This card let you draw + ramp + create a body, almost for free, each and every turn. This is so powerful in this particular deck that really struggle to ramp. Varina let you recover the loss of life. It's never a lost turn when you cast BMC. The pay off for the rest of the game is ridiculously strong.

Last 3 games I played BMC, it won me the game, litteraly. The advantage gained was too big for my opponnents. (To be honest I lost one of those game because of Emrakul controlling me with Toxic Deluge in hand..... lol).

[plaganegra]

If you really wanna be sure you can playtest some games on moxfield , thats what i generally do when i test my Varina and other decks out,
Springleaf Drum has also been doing good work making some zombies into mana dorks.

hmmmm. I think I need to add this card to my deck since it fixes colors and pairs so well with all my 1drop zombies!
Thanks!

swapped the extra land I had included for the drum

[devilcatz]

One turn to get BMC to work.. hmm.. May be delaying the plan?
Then the changeling takes another turn to be able to attack. That makes 2 turns…hmm… I prob won't want it that way.

I think you underestimate the power of Black Market Connections. This card let you draw + ramp + create a body, almost for free, each and every turn. This is so powerful in this particular deck that really struggle to ramp. Varina let you recover the loss of life. It's never a lost turn when you cast BMC. The pay off for the rest of the game is ridiculously strong.

True! I'll test it in my meta
It seems to work best with massive life gain Alhammarret's Archive to pop 6 lives.

[toctheyounger]

Alright, long time coming, and looking at all the changes good god it's been a while between updates. Here's my big, combined official update. I've updated the front page already to reflect the most recent build path, let me know if any of it looks shonky and I'll pore through the code (again).

• 1 Universal Automaton
• 1 Butcher Ghoul
• 1 Tainted Adversary
• 1 Stitcher's Supplier
• 1 Zombie Infestation
• 1 Ad Nauseam
• 1 Ponder
• 1 Sensei's Divining Top
• 1 Springleaf Drum
• 1 Crucible of Worlds
• 1 Arid Mesa
• 1 Scalding Tarn
• 1 Misty Rainforest
• 1 Verdant Catacombs
• 1 Raffine's Tower
• 1 Tithe
• 1 Void Rend
• 1 Liliana, Untouched by Death

• 1 Bladestitched Skaab
• 1 Snapcaster Mage
• 1 Fleshbag Marauder
• 1 Corpse Augur
• 1 Vengeful Dead
• 1 Overcharged Amalgam
• 2 Swamp
• 2 Plains
• 2 Island
• 1 Rhystic Study
• 1 Mystic Remora
• 1 Arcane Signet
• 1 Empty the Laboratory
• 1 Necroduality

I definitely left this long enough that these might not add up entirely. Happy to check and make sure x=100 though if it doesnt.

So in terms of whys and wherefores, let's start with the easiest; Fetches, Crucible, Ponder and Top are all no-brainers. In goldfishing, they've made the deck incredibly more consistent, to the point where color fixing just isn't an issue almost at all. Along with that, Field of the Dead triggers, yada yada. Creature adds with the Automaton, Adversary and Butcher are all predominantly for curve, although it is nice that they all have upside, Automaton looping with Lili and Ashnod's being just a cherry on top. Infestation I always liked in the list as a way to flood the board if you're stuck sandbagging and need board presence, but again, another cherry in being able to draw your deck with Skullclamp and Ashnod's Altar. Ad Nauseam I've had great results with. We have several ways of bolstering life totals, and whenever I've cast it I've had absolutely no issue netting 20 cards minimum, often lots more. I will say with a lean mana package it is difficult to get through enough to get everything you need to combo off right away, but that's ok, we're alright scuplting hand and turfing stuff if needed.

Springleaf Drum I love in a lot of places and this is one of them. We always want early board presence, and this rewards playing that way for a miniscule cost. Tithe has come up in the thread a few times now, and I was lucky enough to snatch a copy from my LGS a little while ago. I tried it in my mono white build, and it just does better things here by far. Void Rend is the one add I'm a little unsure about. I like that it's hard to work around and flexible, I do worry about the colors for it though. We'll see. And lastly, Liliana, Untouched by Death; I've always liked her utility here, and missing the loops she can make was a bad on my part. She's actually got quite a few lines which makes her well worth a spot.

In terms of drops, most of what I've done is thin the curve. There are a couple I'll miss, specifically Vengeful Dead, but 3b is a lot to pay. Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora it feels weird to be removing, because they are that good. It just feels like a) they're for a more reactive deck, which we're not, and b) to some degree, we don't desperately need them over creatures. I'm open to being wrong about that, but I feel fairly strongly that they're surplus to requirements. Arcane Signet is strictly worse (here) than Springleaf Drum, and Necroduality just hasn't performed for me at all. It's always been something I sandbag to play creatures instead of, or take a turn off of zombies for. I feel like it just doesn't fit the pacing the deck needs. Empty the Laboratory is one I sort of rue removing, but the further my curve lowers the less I feel it's needed; it seems less and less like cheating on CMC, and the value to be had from low curve zombies being cheated into play just isn't there.

So all this leaves me with a relatively smaller land base now, and an average CMC of 2.35. I'm pretty happy with it as is for now, although I'm pretty keen on the new transmogrant from Brother's War. That has a place here for sure.

Where this leaves me now is looking at interaction in the deck. I've been eyeing up Dovin's Veto again, and feeling less and less like the colors are an issue. I think I'll try and squeeze it in somewhere. I'm also looking askance at Anguished Unmaking. I feel like what it does is great and what it costs is not. It's never going to be terrible, but it's definitely a benchwarmer for me quite often. I'm tossing up some ritual effects too, such as Dark Ritual and Culling the Weak, although I'm not sold on them yet. I think they'd help with Ad Naus lines, but I'm not sure where else they'd see value.

Sorry for inundating you all, and sorry for the wait for official updates to the thread. RL is hard y'all.

[pzbw7z]

@toctheyounger Chart says 98 cards.

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger Chart says 98 cards.

Ugh. Of course it does. That's why you update as you go and not leave it months.

All good, I'll update overnight.