help request

1. Your average CMC of 3,83 is pretty high. Would be hard for you to keep up mana for control elements.
2. You mana base is a weird mix. Fast Lands on the one hand and Scry Lands and Thriving Lands on the other. Better evaluate what you're trying to achieve (sturdy fixing vs ultra fast accessability) and adjust accordingly.
3. With that curve ramping on 3 with Wood Elves variants makes your deck even slower. Either cut it down a little and/or consider Nature's Lore, Three Visits, Rampant Growth, Harrow and Kodama's Reach or more fast mana.
4. Can you point out your essential combos or overall game plan? That would make it a lot easier for us to offer advice.

RowanKeltizar · Post by **RowanKeltizar** » 3 years ago

Hi there and welcome! Am I right in assuming this is a list of cards you own at home and want to throw together into a deck or is this a list of cards you plan to purchase?

This largely appears to be a "good stuff" Sultai deck which is totally fine, but I always advocate organizing the deck by FUNCTION. The categories are basically as follows:

RAMP - 8-12
CARD DRAW - 10-12
REMOVAL/CONTROL/STAX - 5-10
BOARD WIPES - 2-4
TUTORS - 5-8
LANDS - 30-38

These are things that virtually ANY commander deck needs in order to work and it helps to organize by those functions when deckbuilding so you make sure you have the right numbers. It's not an exact science, but you want to get in those ballparks.

You can take it step further and organize with card SYNERGY in mind.

"MEAT AND POTATOES" - Total of 20-30 cards these are the type of cards that your commander enables. For Kaalia of the Vast it is the Angels, Demons, and Dragons. For Niv-Mizzet, Parun it's the instant and sorcery based draw spellls. Obviously you want to run cards that work well with your commander because you always have access to it. Your commander(s) should be an enabler for your deck.

ENABLERS - 3-5 cards - these enable or enhance what your commander does, and compounded with the meat and potatoes you get synergy. For Niv, it's largely the "Draw Multiplier" cards like Teferi's Ageless Insight or Consecrated Sphinx. These are key card that when you get them into play you should be threatening to win. For Prossh, Skyraider of Kher this is largey things like Xenagos, God of Revels or even Tainted Strike

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

You have a decent amount of ETB effects and you are in blue. Have you considered Thassa, Deep-Dwelling to be able to repeat the ETBs?

I feel like you might need a bit more ramp since there are quite a few higher mana cost cards in your deck. It seems like your deck doesn't really get going until you've got 5+ mana available. Maybe consider adding some of the following:
Three Visits
Nature's Lore
Wood Elves

Cadaverous Bloom is a really cool card but I think you really need to build around it to make sure you have a lot of draw (maybe with cards like Necropotence). Personally I would probably drop it from the list unless you really increase the card draw. I could be wrong, maybe you do have enough card draw to take advantage of it.

The Elderspell is a card I have tried and it ended up being dead in hand fairly often. Unless you anticipate a lot of planeswalkers I'd probably replace it with something a little more versatile. Or are you planning to kill your own planeswalkers to combo with Tevesh? If that's the case, I'd probably want to increase the planeswalker count to have a higher chance of that working.

Elvish Dreadlord feels like it should be Massacre Wurm or Massacre Girl instead. You aren't totally taking advantage of the "non-elf" aspect. Is this just for the potential to use it twice?

Izoni, Thousand-Eyed is really cool but I don't know that you are running enough creatures to actually take advantage of her.

Post by **pokken** » 3 years ago

I don't think I can really comment a ton on this deck without some more context as to what the combos are that you're going for. There do appear to be some infinites in the deck but I can't pick them out by eye.

From the looks of things you're probably looking to set up a nearly infinite Villainous Wealth, but I can't see anything that cleanly combos with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix so I might be missing something.

The Demonic Consultation / Thassa's Oracle / Laboratory Maniac packages really feel at odds with what the deck is doing to me, and I wouldn't play them at this power level. I'd like to see the lab man/consultation stuff be more supporting things.

With that said, my main thoughts are

* The ramp package is a bit disjointed with creature ramp and stuff like Cultivate. My gut perspective is this is a deck that wants more Kodama's Reach effects but you also need to enable Tevesh with creatures to sac and block. I think I would probably add Far Wanderings honestly, given that you are going to sac things and have a bunch of saccy dudes.

* Without much of a reanimation package I don't love a lot of the big dudes like Dragonlord Silumgar and Sphinx of Uthuun. These seem to be just goodstuff and not really part of the plan. I'd like to see all your big stuff synergize with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix or Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools somehow.

Imagine Sire of Stagnation potentially allowing you to go infinite off another player's Skyshroud Claim when you draw 4.

* Combo package wise, I really prefer Staff of Domination as my combo outlet with Kydele over the consult package. It's not as neat and tidy but it's way more interesting.

* Black Market is a sweet card but I think this deck wants a couple sweepers to support that plan. Maybe Toxic Deluge at least? Or Apex Altisaur and a reanimation package?

* I kinda like the idea of a small theft package to steal other people's commanders and sac them to Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools but I might be overthinking

Maybe something like Treachery or even Reins of Power if you go up on sac outlets. I'd definitely play Gilded Drake but that's kinda gotten out of the affordable realm these days.

Anywho, I think there's a lot of cool stuff at play here with Tevesh / Kydele being able to make her tap for 3 just by saccing a dude. So cool combo, just need to focus a bit!

Post by **RxPhantom** » 3 years ago

I'm really bad evaluating a deck list with no context, but I'm trying to make more of an effort to be more active in these deckles threads, especially since I'm currently piecing a thread together.

trevorreznikable · Post by **trevorreznikable** » 3 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
3 years ago

Decklist

Commanders

1 Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools

1 Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix

Creatures (21)

1 Coiling Oracle

1 Kiora's Follower

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Thassa's Oracle

1 Chasm Skulker

1 Farhaven Elf

1 Laboratory Maniac

1 Reclamation Sage

1 Hostage Taker

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Spark Double

1 Acidic Slime

1 Cavalier of Gales

1 Elvish Dreadlord

1 Peregrine Drake

1 Tatyova, Benthic Druid

1 Deadeye Navigator

1 Dragonlord Silumgar

1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed

1 Diluvian Primordial

1 Sphinx of Uthuun

Planeswalkers (5)

1 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner

1 Narset, Parter of Veils

1 Vraska, Golgari Queen

1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General

1 Vraska, Relic Seeker

Artifacts (2)

1 Sol Ring

1 Wishclaw Talisman

Enchantment (6)

1 Rhystic Study

1 Bounty of the Luxa

1 Wilderness Reclamation

1 Black Market

1 Cadaverous Bloom

1 Omniscience

Instants (13)

1 Brainstorm

1 Demonic Consultation

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Worldly Tutor

1 Arcane Denial

1 Assassin's Trophy

1 Counterspell

1 Heroic Intervention

1 Beast Within

1 Dissipate

1 Frantic Search

1 Sultai Charm

1 Fact or Fiction

Sorceries (15)

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Farseek

1 Finale of Revelation

1 The Elderspell

1 Torment of Hailfire

1 Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary

1 Cultivate

1 Villainous Wealth

1 Primal Command

1 Urban Evolution

1 Casualties of War

1 Emergent Ultimatum

1 Peer into the Abyss

1 Planewide Celebration

1 Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn

Land (36)

1 Blooming Marsh

1 Botanical Sanctum

1 Breeding Pool

1 Castle Vantress

1 Command Tower

1 Darkslick Shores

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Fabled Passage

4 Forest

1 Hinterland Harbor

4 Island

1 Morphic Pool

1 Opulent Palace

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Polluted Delta

1 Rejuvenating Springs

3 Swamp

1 Temple of Deceit

1 Temple of Malady

1 Temple of Mystery

1 Thriving Grove

1 Thriving Isle

1 Thriving Moor

1 Undergrowth Stadium

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Watery Grave

1 Woodland Cemetery

1 Zagoth Triome

Approximate Total Cost:

This makes it a bit easier to look at. I'll give you some thoughts later on

Thank you very much! it's my first time writing on the forum!

So the deck is more like a combo box rather than a deck with a single plan although what I would like to do is using Kydele to make enough mana to make everything faster and Tevesh Szat as either a winning condition or a card draw engine. I thought about implementing a profilerate theme but that would transfigure the deck completely.

Anyway there are several combos in this deck:

Once I cast Emergent Ultimatum I would go for Omniscience+Liliana+Planewide Celebration. allowing nobody is ever going to let me resolve Omniscience so once Liliana resolves first the Celebration would allow me to profilerate 4 times and then resolve Liliana's ultimate ability putting me in a position of huge advantage, alternatively Vraska, Relic Seeker would almost kill one of the other players taking them down to 1 life (I could insert Sunscorched Desert for this purpose).

Another combo is Cadaverous Bloom+Peer into the abyss+Torment of Hailfire/Villanious Wealth. once the Bloom resolves I would discard cards enough to cast Peer into the abyss. At that point Torment of Hailfire closes the game or alternative I would mill an oppo to death and with all his deck I would likely be able to kill at least one more player.

Peregrine Drake+Deadeye Navigator means infinite mana, so multiple possibilities to kill the opponents using either Torment of Hailfire or Villanious Wealth but there are many other chances like Finale of revelation to draw my entire deck and use Thassa's Oracle.

I agree with seeing the Elderspell as "meh" in this deck since it relies to much on what the oppos are playing. I also agree with the need of playing a couple of mass removals at least. The Elvish Dreadlord could be sacced to Tevesh Szat so it would mean both the mass removal and the card drawing but maybe is asking the deck too much.
The sphinx of Uthuun and Fact or Fiction are two additional ways to put the Dreadlord in the grave so to cast it with the Encore ability, but I'm not fond of them to be honest.

so I would say that I would like to remove:

-The Elderspell
- Sphinx of Uthuun
- Fact or Fiction
- Elvish Dreadlord
- Diluvian Primordial
- Black Market
- Cavalier of Gales (hard to cast)

Please let me know what would you add.
What about the lands?

Post by **pokken** » 3 years ago

trevorreznikable wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Thank you very much! it's my first time writing on the forum

Welcome aboard!

If you put a decklist up there's a gear icon in the upper right, can use standardized sorting then download the decklist to repost. That's how I do it.

Post by **RxPhantom** » 3 years ago

@trevorreznikable, welcome! I'd also suggest getting comfortable with tagging cards to make it easier for readers to know which cards we're discussing. A handy guide is here, but:

[ c ]Zap[ /c ] with no spaces = Zap

Anyway, when it comes to your lands, the first thing I'd take out are the Thriving lands, and replace them with pain lands: Llanowar Wastes, Yavimaya Coast, Underground River. Coming in untapped is huge, and I've really come to rely on these lands over the years in almost every deck.

Post by **pokken** » 3 years ago

trevorreznikable wrote: ↑
3 years ago
So the deck is more like a combo box rather than a deck with a single plan although what I would like to do is using Kydele to make enough mana to make everything faster and Tevesh Szat as either a winning condition or a card draw engine. I thought about implementing a profilerate theme but that would transfigure the deck completely.

Anyway there are several combos in this deck:

I think your cuts are moving in the right direction. Something I like about most of your combo pieces is they have some useful applications on their own, e.g. celebration / liliana are both decent with the rest of the deck. That's why I would consider bailing on the consultation package a for more synergistic cards. You could play stuff like Spellseeker or Merchant Scroll as ways to enable finding stuff too if you wanted which might be better than having quite as many non-overlapping combo pieces.

Not sure about the proliferate idea, I have found all the dice flipping associated with that to be rather tedious.

trevorreznikable wrote: ↑
3 years ago
What about the lands?

The manabase is a bit rough. It seems to have a moderate budget but is very expensive, and runs a lot of cards I would consider pretty poor like Thriving Grove cycle. I'd go through and cut most of the stuff that enters tapped (although I do like temples, I would err on the side of only the blue ones with your mana allocation, or none).

Obviously the best manabase is all 10 fetches, all 3 shocks and 3 duals blah blah etc etc. But for operating on a reasonable budget without too much shuffling I like to run 6 fetches in my 3-color decks (so the 3 on-color and then one of each off color, sometimes erring two of my main color).

So my manabase template looks like:

command tower
6 fetches (3 on color 3 off)
3 shocks
3 battlebond lands
1-2 cycling duals
1-2 tango lands
10-ish basics (maybe 5/3/2 or 5/4/2 in your build with black being the odd color, because you have a lot of basic search effects)
2 primary color filters (blue in your case, Flooded Grove and Sunken Hollow)
fill out the rest to taste (stuff lke Prismatic Vista / Fabled Passage )

But YMMV, and other people have different takes. There's a whole thread in the main forum on this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31660

trevorreznikable · Post by **trevorreznikable** » 3 years ago

Thank you all very much for your help, I'll come back once I will have applied your suggestions and/or when I will have some updates

trevorreznikable · Post by **trevorreznikable** » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Hi there and welcome! Am I right in assuming this is a list of cards you own at home and want to throw together into a deck or is this a list of cards you plan to purchase?

This largely appears to be a "good stuff" Sultai deck which is totally fine, but I always advocate organizing the deck by FUNCTION. The categories are basically as follows:

RAMP - 8-12
CARD DRAW - 10-12
REMOVAL/CONTROL/STAX - 5-10
BOARD WIPES - 2-4
TUTORS - 5-8
LANDS - 30-38

These are things that virtually ANY commander deck needs in order to work and it helps to organize by those functions when deckbuilding so you make sure you have the right numbers. It's not an exact science, but you want to get in those ballparks.

You can take it step further and organize with card SYNERGY in mind.

"MEAT AND POTATOES" - Total of 20-30 cards these are the type of cards that your commander enables. For Kaalia of the Vast it is the Angels, Demons, and Dragons. For Niv-Mizzet, Parun it's the instant and sorcery based draw spellls. Obviously you want to run cards that work well with your commander because you always have access to it. Your commander(s) should be an enabler for your deck.

ENABLERS - 3-5 cards - these enable or enhance what your commander does, and compounded with the meat and potatoes you get synergy. For Niv, it's largely the "Draw Multiplier" cards like Teferi's Ageless Insight or Consecrated Sphinx. These are key card that when you get them into play you should be threatening to win. For Prossh, Skyraider of Kher this is largey things like Xenagos, God of Revels or even Tainted Strike

hi and thanks for your indications that are surely going to be promptly useful. Yes it's a bunch of cards I used to start from to build my 2nd commander deck (the other one I copied from a user on this forum). I'm new to the format so this kind of criteria are more than welcome.

At the moment this the decklist I have in mind
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/MmaZPKoqK02KRunbKRNX7Q

trevorreznikable · Post by **trevorreznikable** » 3 years ago

I was wondering why certain decks play signets and others don't. Is it a matter of ramping or fixing?

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

trevorreznikable wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I was wondering why certain decks play signets and others don't. Is it a matter of ramping or fixing?

Generally in a 2+ color deck without green, you would include some quantity of signets and/or talismans because they are cheap efficient ramp. There is a chance it is fixing too, if you are only drawing land of one color, but that isn't the primary purpose.

Green has plenty of efficient non-artifact ramping options so you likely would avoid them in a deck that is green. It can vary though. If green is just a splash in your deck, it would probably be more desirable to run some artifact ramp.

trevorreznikable · Post by **trevorreznikable** » 3 years ago

So this is the List I've been toying with recently and I am convinced there are cards that need to be replaced as they are not in tune with the aim of the deck. Moreover I would need more redundancy but at the same time flexibility to adapt to different situations of a game.

Cards that need to go:

Cards that I would like to add: Some creatures that have an impact on the board, some lower curve, instant speed removal, an enhancement to my two commanders

Any Ideas?


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Commanders

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Instants (13)

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