Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control

[LightningLion]

Hey, @WizardMN what's your opinion on Silverback Elder? Is it as good as expected?

I went to play for the first time in almost a year to my LGS, so it was a way more competitive environment. I got annihilated without a chance to do anything in the first game, so a big redesign of my deck is in order.

[WizardMN]

I have had some good uses out of it but those came about in my Jenara and Windgrace decks more than anything. I think it is good here too, I just haven't seen it much. The main issue is that it is slow. That is, it obviously isn't doing anything until the *next* spell is cast. This could mean that tossing it out on Turn 5 isn't necessarily going to get you value anytime soon.

The other issue is that the modes might not be that great here. If the second ability could get creatures, I think it is an obvious "yes" but only getting a land might not be enough. I like that it is an Aura Shards on a body, which is the main reason I wanted it, but this might be less useful than originally expected. Plenty of people run artifacts and enchantments so this is the most powerful of the modes in my mind. But being 5 mana over Aura Shards' 3 mana might be too much. And, of course, Shards works with creatures entering which is a nice little "gotcha" with things like Dryad Arbor coming in off a fetch land whereas Elder only works on cast which can be limiting.

I am not ready to completely write it off just yet, but if you are noticing a more competitive environment (likely meaning slightly faster games) Elder is probably just a bit too slow and not impactful enough to keep around. I would be curious on your decision because I could see that this might be a reasonable cut to make way for faster, more impactful cards even in the meta I am used to which isn't quite as competitive..

[WizardMN]

Here are my thoughts regarding Lord of the Rings and the LOTR Commander set:

Green Cards

Radagast the Brown - This can really help keep my hand full and ensure that my hand is creatures. I think this is a good enough card to try out in a few decks.

[shermanido37]

Sorry to be so late, but I'd like to give my 2 cents on Peacekeeper.
I don't think people realize how much value in EDH relies on combat, but for me it's been at times like Stasis on a stick. While it's not permanent removal, it's absolutely stellar at stopping the enemy from snowballing and giving me a chance to come back to the game.

Things that (mostly) rely on combat:
- deathtouch & lifelink
- Equipments, mostly Umezawa's Jitte and swords like Sword of Fire and Ice
- attack triggers, like Narset, Enlightened Master and Archon of Cruelty and Master of Cruelties
- damage triggers, like Grenzo, Havoc Raiser and Nature's Will
- other cards that generally like combat, like Craterhoof Behemoth, Triumph of the Hordes, Relentless Assault and more

It's been said that this card can put a big red target on your head, or otherwise prevent your opponents from fighting each other, and that's true. There's no reason to drop a PK on the board while you aren't being actively threatened, but the same can also be said for dropping a Wrath of God - cards are sometimes only as good as their pilot. It's best to identify a solid window when your opponents are already attacking you, and that honestly happens to me rather often, so for me PK is a saving grace.
Worst case scenario, it's a 1/1 for 3 that I can sacrifice for some other effect like Fleshbag Marauder - my own deck hasn't particularly cared for getting into the red zone until it was time to take people out of the game, so there wasn't really any drawback to not attacking.

So bottom line, 10/10 card, highly recommend, will lose you friends.

[duducrash]

Some cards from LOTR that id like to bring up to discussion

Boromir, Warden of the Tower - both effects are pretty cool in this deck I feel

Rise of the Witch-king - it plays really sweet imho, it can bring back lands which is also nice

Common Landcyclers - nonbasic cyclers for 1 and fill the GY with creatures. Im considering perhaps running it

[LightningLion]

Haven't tried Boromir, but Rise of the Witch-king has yet to give me favorable results. I've had that card 3 or 4 games sitting in my hand waiting to be played because either I didn't have anything interesting in my graveyard (because I don't rely too much on milling) or the game was so balanced that I had no creature to spare.

[WizardMN]

Boromir seems like an interesting inclusion and one that I might come back to eventually. The indestructible is nice for sure. I don't know how often the other ability will come up since I don't encounter much in the way of "free" spells being slung around in my games, but it isn't the worst to have in a pinch.

I am with @LightningLion on Rise of the Witch-King though. It looks like it might be good but I don't think this deck ever gets to a point where a single sacrifice is going to help things that much. That is, I really just want to let my opponents go and then wrath the board entirely. So much so, that I think I might want Farewell over Rise just to reset things and then start my thing. It is nice that it is asymmetrical but I feel like I would encounter situations where I get the worst of it more often than not.

Of course, if you self-mill or do include things like cyclers, it can help break the parity a little more. I am just not sure how often it will actually work to really keep my opponents in line.

Regarding Peacekeeper: I hear the arguments for and against it but I am not sure I want to try it out quite yet. It is very vulnerable to removal and it has to be played proactively which gives people time to work out how to remove it. And then how to kill me so it doesn't come back. If I had more ways to get it at instant timing, I might be more on board with it, but as it stands, it isn't something I want to pursue right now.

[WizardMN]

I may have missed something but I was unable to find anything in Wilds of Eldraine or the Commander decks that I felt would be a good fit for this deck. Hopefully the next set offers something.

[LightningLion]

Nothing particular relevant since this list doesn't rely on self-mill is already optimized to a point where cutting something becomes really difficult, but we've got a few interesting Karador utilities:
Bramble Familiar // Fetch Quest as very slow and recurrable mill-reanimation.
Bringer of the Last Gift pricier living death that you can play from the graveyard while keeping a flying 6/6 threat.
Squirming Emergence the idea is nice, but similar to Rise of the Witch-king I don't see it working good.
Chupacabra Echo as second copy of ravenous chupacabra, because it's only situationally better, which is a different way to say worse.
The Mycotyrant if the fungus could block, this would be great as I'm usually overrun by opponent creatures.
Spitting Dilophosaurus great pet for Yawgmoth.
Compy Swarm for aristocrat Karador strategies.

[duducrash]

Nothing particular relevant since this list doesn't rely on self-mill is already optimized to a point where cutting something becomes really difficult, but we've got a few interesting Karador utilities:

My two favourite recent pieces were left out

Blossoming Tortoise - Is Satyr Wayfinder on steroids
Bartolomé del Presidio - Free sac outlet!

[LightningLion]

Not a big fan of Bartholome when we already have Carrion Feeder and Viscera Seer who can sacrifice themselves (which is relevant for the False Prophet).
You're right about the tortoise, completely forgot to mention it even when I was considering it as a replacement for Worldshaper this same afternoon.

[PrimevalCommander]

I might need to get a Blossoming Tortoise to try out. I had originally pushed it aside but the amount of praise it is getting is causing me to reconsider. With 38 lands, how often am I expected to whiff on this if I don't already have a land in the GY? I'm not playing enough fetches to guarantee one by turn 4. I do play some self mill, but generally not until turns 4-6 anyway.

[LightningLion]

New set, new cards!

The general mechanics of this one don't work that well with our playstyle. Everyone will know what card we'll be cloacking/disguising from our graveyard. And collect evidence is just burning our resources.

Surveilands are, overall, an upgrade for the temple lands since they're typed. Nice to have some extra budget options to grab with Wood Elves, Three Visits or Nature's Lore. And surveil 1 is almost "draw one" for us.

Doorkeeper Thrull is a direct upgrade forHushwing Gryff, a card I've seen in more STAX/Toolbox/Hatebears lists. Not of much use here.

Homicide Investigator for me, this card is just a worse Morbid Opportunist so I don't get why it's rare.

Massacre Girl, Known Killer this one right here. I think it's my fav card of the set. 4 mana 4/4 with menace and wither for all our creatures and a draw engine. She's a great commander and Yawgmoth's bestie. Wrath with Toxic Deluge and you'll draw a lot of cards.

Vein Ripper seems nasty but there are better high cost creatures in our toolbox.

Chalk Outline uncertain about this one. 4cmc but pseudo draw engine and a blocker/fodder generator. I'll test it.

Assassin's Trophy is a nice reprint. New art because WotC parted ways with Seb? I like the original one better.

Izoni, Center of the Web ia my biggest dissapointment of the set. She's a two colored, higher cost than Massacre Girl and is overall worst? 5/4 for 6 with no keywords. I had hopes for a new and interesting mechanic. Instead, she got the set mechanic which I can't like because as I said previously, Collect Evidence X is burning your resources, something that I as a GB player won't like. Evidence 4 for 2 little spiders I think it's too much. The other ability might be OK on a token aristocrat deck...

Urgent Necropsy as a non-English native I totally misunderstood this card and thought it was amazing (I thought it could desteoy multiple creatures and so on). The "up to" clause makes it a cheaper Casualties of War at instant speed that I'd use in response to anyone trying to exile my graveyard. I don't think it's too good here.

[duducrash]

For me, the highlights of the set are :

The surveil lands. Fetchable and surveil

Aftermath Analyst a banger with self mill. Really excited about it

Archdruid's Charm - if you can afford GGG, the value and versatility here is absurd

[WizardMN]

Here are my thoughts regarding Lost Caverns of Ixalan, Murder at Karlov Manor, their Commander Decks, and the Doctor Who Commander set. I know I have not been keeping up so hopefully this covers all the sets I have missed:

Green Cards

Archdruid's Charm - This is probably the biggest "auto-include" card I can find from these sets. It gets me any land which is important for Karador to get to Sac Outlets but it can also remove 3 permanent types as needed which offers a lot of versatility. I think I absolutely want this in the deck somewhere.

Ojer Kaslem, Deepest Growth - I really like this card just for the fun it can bring. It has Trample so hitting someone should be a bit easier and getting a free creature and/or land is pretty good. I generally have a few creatures that sit in the 5-6 mana range that offer a bit of power that aren't necessarily on theme and I think this is another. I might see if there is something worth cutting for this.

Colorless and Land Cards

New dual typed lands - More fetchable lands is always good and I don' think these are too bad. However, I am wary about the effect entering tapped all the time would have. I will probably pick some up but I am not sure I will ever get to the point of actually playing them considering all the better alternatives.

[WizardMN]

2/19/2024

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

CUTS

1 Silverback Elder

1 Lifeblood Hydra

ADDS

1 Archdruid's Charm

1 Ojer Kaslem, Deepest Growth

Approximate Total Cost:

I really want to try out these cards but I could not figure out the best cuts to make them happen. Silverback is pretty straightforward. There was a discussion a while back in this thread about the card and I started to realize it might be a little slow for what it was doing. Ojer Kaslem might have the same issue but it is worth a try.

Hydra is one I like but it is also a little slow and takes a bit of setup to make work. It is helpful but I couldn't come up with a better cut.

[WizardMN]

I gave this a spin. I played against Anzrag, the Quake-Mole and Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker. The fourth scooped on turn 3.

Start of Summary

I started with a couple lands and no ramp (this is similar to my Morska game). I still had decent cards in hand so I kept it though it might have been a mistake in hindsight,

Michiko was playing quite a few effects ensuring things entered tapped or only allowing one spell per turn. This worked out in my favor to slow the game down well enough. I started with a Fiend Artisan into a Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker which blew up a Sword of Forge and Frontier.

I didn't do much from here. I had a couple removal spells but really I just let the game play out. Because I wasn't doing much, the other two players went after one another. I did eventually get a Kokusho, the Evening Star down but decided to leave it back as a blocker on a turn in case Anzrag came out me. This too was likely a mistake as I might have been able to win if I was a little more aggressive. But I sat back and waited until Michiko Konda was taken out and tried to cast Hour of Revelation. But Anzrag has Tamiyo's Safekeeping to keep their commander alive and I just lost to commander damage the next turn.

End of Summary

I think I needed to mulligan. I did not have a lot of early game plays and had nearly no removal which hurt too much when I was just getting beat down with a single creature. Overall the deck played fine so I think it is just a matter of trying to give myself a better chance.

[LightningLion]

Chalk Outline uncertain about this one. 4cmc but pseudo draw engine and a blocker/fodder generator. I'll test it.

I mentioned that I had some interest for Chalk Outline, but I totally missed that Insidious Roots is overall better: easier to cast, also gives tokens, but they ramp and grow, instead of giving bigger tokens and ways to draw. Sinergiezes with Avenger of Zendikar. Hope I can test it soon.

[WizardMN]

Chalk Outline uncertain about this one. 4cmc but pseudo draw engine and a blocker/fodder generator. I'll test it.

I mentioned that I had some interest for Chalk Outline, but I totally missed that Insidious Roots is overall better: easier to cast, also gives tokens, but they ramp and grow, instead of giving bigger tokens and ways to draw. Sinergiezes with Avenger of Zendikar. Hope I can test it soon.

I think both require a specific type of build which I don't think works for mine. But, I would agree with your assessment: in a build where either is effective, Insidious Roots does seem like the better card. Card draw can be done via other effects so growing an army and ramping for half the mana cost seems like a better way to go. The only thing I can see as being a pain is that the tokens will almost always have a different amount of counters and getting more and more makes it tougher to keep the board state understandable.

But that is a pretty minor inconvenience all things considered.

[PrimevalCommander]

@WizardMN have you seen Blossoming Tortoise much lately? How have you liked it? I have one coming and want to temper expectations. I suspect if I get a hit on ETB, and a one swing into a blocker it will have served it's purpose. Also gets back dead utility lands or used channel lands instead of finding another basic like Solemn Simulacrum which Turtle is displacing.

[duducrash]

@WizardMN have you seen Blossoming Tortoise much lately? How have you liked it? I have one coming and want to temper expectations. I suspect if I get a hit on ETB, and a one swing into a blocker it will have served it's purpose. Also gets back dead utility lands or used channel lands instead of finding another basic like Solemn Simulacrum which Turtle is displacing.

Trutle is preat great. Self Mill + ramp. more often than not there is a free attack. Nice synergy with Blast Zone and Castle Garenbrig looks amazing in foil. one of my favorite cards of the last year

[PrimevalCommander]

The only land abilities that would get cost reduced in my deck are Kor Haven, Volrath's Stronghold, and Rishadan Port.

Unless he reduces the cost of Takenuma, Abandoned Mire , Boseiju, Who Endures and other channel lands? If so, that is pretty cool.

[LightningLion]

4 mana value self-mill & recursion has some contestants:
Kagha, Shadow Archdruid
Worldshaper
Blossoming Tortoise

This isn't a self-mill list, be mindful of that.
Of all those 3, Kagha is the one I played the less, I rarely got value out of her.
World Shaper is nice because milling is optional, and if you can sac it at will it enables for some explosive situations.

I think the tortoise is the best of the three. I prefer the steady slow ramp of it, and it also works as (innefficient) lamd recursion. Land creatures buffing is irrelevant, but the cost reduction is nice for Winding canyons and I personally run Emergence Zone and being able to reuse it is always nice. Plus, if you run Dryad Arbor (I don't) it's an extra fodder for Yawgmoth each turn.

@PrimevalCommander it's land permanents you control, and that implies in the battlefield.

[WizardMN]

@WizardMN have you seen Blossoming Tortoise much lately? How have you liked it? I have one coming and want to temper expectations. I suspect if I get a hit on ETB, and a one swing into a blocker it will have served it's purpose. Also gets back dead utility lands or used channel lands instead of finding another basic like Solemn Simulacrum which Turtle is displacing.

I haven't gotten to play it much here but the comparison to Solemn is where I had been to start with. The main issue is that I don't even play Solemn here anymore. You are right that it can get back utility lands which is more useful. Assuming there are lands in the yard anyway. The ceiling is high enough that I am still leaving it here to test it out but I just haven't gotten it in a game enough to really speak to how well it is working.

I do think your expectations are reasonable. It can certainly get better but getting 2 lands out of it seems likely. It isn't really a big enough threat for people to spend removal on it so you should be able to swing at least once.

[LightningLion]

If you're able to resolve an Eerie Ultimatum this is probably the last thing you'd care about, but if you diversify your basic lands to half regular and half snow-covered ones you'll get more lands from the Ultimatum.