Need Help with Monoblack Control

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MrBloo
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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

Hi guys,

So I am currently running a version of @TheGildedGoose's Erebos, God of the Dead MBC to see if this flavor of MBC is right for me. Here's the current list:

Erebos, God of the Dead

Card Draws

Approximate Total Cost:

So the main idea of the deck is that since I now have a near-unkillable draw engine that I can pretty consistently ramp out on 3 in the command zone, I get to spend some of the slots that I normally would have to dedicate to draw spells on doubling down on board and hand control effects to clear the way for when I go for the table kill with one of the X-spells or drain effects. Erebos being indestructible means we get to run a bunch of symmetrical board control effects as well as play sweepers more aggressively, while running discard effects (some of which are symmetrical but we stay ahead in card parity) to keep from hoarding cards in hand as well as limit interaction during our "go for it" turn(s).

As expected, the deck draws a lot of heat at the table. Having a near-uninteractible draw engine and an abundance of removals means my opponents feel compelled to focus me down and realistically, politicking doesn't work all that well.

I understand that I do have other tools available to help combat that heat but a lot of them, I am not willing to use. The deck is already mean enough as is and while going full stax (like TheGildedGoose's latest version) can be a solution, it's just going to result in a miserable time for both the pilot and their opponents and that is not I am looking for.

My playgroup's power level is medium-high (I feel numbers can be misleading). There's a good mix of archetypes and strategies that include but are not limited to creature combat-based, combo, noncreature permanents, graveyard, etc. Players are competent in skills and threat assessment and we try our best to win without sacrificing too much of the fun social aspect of the game. We usually meet in person once a week (with spelltable games occasionally throughout the week) so game quality is highly valued.

I've always been an MBC player and am the resident monoblack player in the group. My very first EDH deck was Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and she's gone through numerous revisions and I've always kept her as the commander until recently when I switched to Erebos as an experiment since she's becoming dated as a commander choice. Don't get me wrong, a removal on a beatstick that can commander damage people is still not terrible. Just not amazing. She is still my pride and joy.

With all that said, I am in the market for a new commander as well as an overhaul of the deck in order to make the deck both less miserable to play/play against while still being able to do the classic MBC things I want to do. Here are some of my must-haves I got off the top of my head:
  1. Either plan A or plan B must be via X-spells and table drain effects such as Exsanguinate, Torment of Hailfire, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, etc. and supported via big black mana package (Cabal Coffers, Thespian's Stage, Deserted Temple, other similar effects). This has always been my comfort food and I feel right at home playing this strategy.
  2. I choose not to run any of the "traditional" fast mana like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chrome Mox, etc. We collectively choose not to run them in our non-cEDH decks. I understand that running them does not turn a deck into cEDH, but the pace running them creates is not a good match for what we are looking for.
  3. Some of the commanders I do not want are the usual groan-inducing and more powerful ones like K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth, Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern, Sheoldred, the Apocalypse. However, running any of these guys in the 99 is fair game if they're a right fit.
  4. I am willing to run pretty much any and all of the tutors/card selection/card advantage cards available in the black color (as you may have already noticed on Erebos's list). I feel a lot of the things black are bad at or can't do altogether justifies doubling down on the things they are strong at. I've gotten much better over time at using my tutors properly so that they both don't slow the game down and get me the most value.
  5. I want there to be a theme or subtheme that goes in front of or behind the aforementioned big mana X spell gameplan. This could be discard, reanimator, lifegain, etc. Just something that gives the deck an identity alongside big black mana while still being able to take advantage of having a lot of mana.
  6. I want to stay away from traditional Aristocrats style deck. It hasn't grown on me yet so I am not a huge fan of it.
  7. The deck should still be a control deck at heart. Tons of removal, sweepers, and just accumulate cards and value and keep the table under control until you feel like you can safely go for the win.
  8. I want to stay away from Grave Pact effects since those aren't the most fun to play against, but I am not completely opposed to having it if it's the solution to the puzzle. However, I feel that by relying on this, we're slowly moving closer to aristocrats style which is not what I am looking for.
Here are some of the ideas I currently have. Feel free to make suggestions or tear them apart.
  1. Braids, Arisen Nightmare - This is inspired by @cheonice's thread. It'll be similar to TheGildedGoose's version where you maximize the chance of a great Turn 2-3 Braids trigger to get a surge of cards early to power the trigger later on to draw through the deck and eventually assemble the pieces while keeping the board under control using the numerous edict effects. I think the strategy can be run without going full Aristocrats and rely on some other ways to get chip damage in (like those recurring creatures) to make your drains cheaper to cast later on.
  2. Sheoldred // The True Scriptures - The card is interesting enough as a commander since at baseline it's a 5 mana 4/5 menace with a better edict on etb. I wonder if I need to run either a mill or discard package to help meet that flip requirement at my own pace, which shouldn't be too difficult in the right build. Probably should run some amount of powerful reanimator targets so I don't have to rely on just my opponents' graveyards. Her getting removed in response to paying the activation is just going to be a risk I have to live with but at least the upfront cost isn't as bad as Elesh Norn's. She does almost everything you want except generate card advantage.
  3. Tinybones, Trinket Thief - Your classic go-to little discard boy. This will let me lean little harder into the discard strategy.
  4. Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal // Temple of the Dead - Another possible pick for a discard strategy. He himself is a decent beater and you can still make bats off of other discard effects.
  5. Chainer, Dementia Master - Another classic MBC commander. This guy will let me lean closer to reanimator strategy. Life loss will need to be offset with some lifegain, probably through reanimating Gary and Cocoa Puffs (Kokusho, the Evening Star).
  6. Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose - Lifegain and lifeloss to take advantage of the lifegain? Also opens us up to the Sanguine Bond combo without having the pieces feeling too out of place on the list.
  7. Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Just generic value engine but could be too slow for my group to really abuse.
  8. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Very strong abilities that checks all the boxes but I am not sure if he's any good in a non-aristocrat shell?
  9. Ayara, First of Locthwain - Another pick similar to Yawgmoth but again, not sure if she's any good in a non-aristocrats shell.
  10. Erebos, God of the Dead - Keep the commander the same but shift the plan away from complete control of the board and head in a different direction. He does afford me to not have to run as many dedicated draw spells and frees up slots for other things and he makes a good attacker/blocker when alive, which can be easy to do with the right combination of permanents. Problem with this is that I feel most of the heat didn't come from the cards I run but just from having this guy in the zone in general so it may be a problem with no solutions.
  11. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief - I can always just go back to her I guess. She's still a 5 mv 4/4 flying that's repeatable removal on a stick, just not the most efficient but has the commander damage upside. I wouldn't want to invest too many slots into the commander damage plan. She doesn't need additional tools to hit hard and I already have a voltron deck so I don't want to overlap.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Any suggestions or constructive criticisms are welcome. I'm still new to formatting so if there are suggestions on how to make this easier to read, feel free to let me know. I love this community and I know there are plenty of monoblack control enjoyers here that can give me insights. :)
Last edited by MrBloo 4 months ago, edited 2 times in total.

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NZB2323
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Post by NZB2323 » 5 months ago

Black Market Connections is one of the best mono black cards in commander. I'd highly recommend adding it to your list.
Current Decks
rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

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MrBloo
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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
5 months ago
Black Market Connections is one of the best mono black cards in commander. I'd highly recommend adding it to your list.
I normally do run it in a typical MBC list. The reason you aren't seeing it on Erebos's list is because I already have a draw engine in the command zone and I spent the slot on other control effects. I otherwise would definitely run it as one of the draw spells. I run Necropotence and TOR in the deck still because they're both outliers in terms of draw engine quality.

It's possible that, if I do decide to keep him around as a commander, I run it among a couple other draw effects just to put less strain on him as the sole card engine.

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Post by NZB2323 » 5 months ago

MrBloo wrote:
5 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
5 months ago
Black Market Connections is one of the best mono black cards in commander. I'd highly recommend adding it to your list.
I normally do run it in a typical MBC list. The reason you aren't seeing it on Erebos's list is because I already have a draw engine in the command zone and I spent the slot on other control effects. I otherwise would definitely run it as one of the draw spells. I run Necropotence and TOR in the deck still because they're both outliers in terms of draw engine quality.

It's possible that, if I do decide to keep him around as a commander, I run it among a couple other draw effects just to put less strain on him as the sole card engine.
It also provides you with ramp, and you don't have to pay 2 mana to draw a card with it. It's much better than Charcoal Diamond.
Current Decks
rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Ghen, prison Captain Sisay Ub Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, Zombie Tribal

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MrBloo
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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

NZB2323 wrote:
5 months ago
MrBloo wrote:
5 months ago
NZB2323 wrote:
5 months ago
Black Market Connections is one of the best mono black cards in commander. I'd highly recommend adding it to your list.
I normally do run it in a typical MBC list. The reason you aren't seeing it on Erebos's list is because I already have a draw engine in the command zone and I spent the slot on other control effects. I otherwise would definitely run it as one of the draw spells. I run Necropotence and TOR in the deck still because they're both outliers in terms of draw engine quality.

It's possible that, if I do decide to keep him around as a commander, I run it among a couple other draw effects just to put less strain on him as the sole card engine.
It also provides you with ramp, and you don't have to pay 2 mana to draw a card with it. It's much better than Charcoal Diamond.
Charcoal Diamond is a 2 mana rock that allows turn 3 Erebos. BMC was much better with a 5 mv commander but I agree that it is amazing. The only reason I chose not to run it was that I wanted to try relying on Erebos mostly for cards and spend the slots on other things. I've used BMC in every single previous version of the deck (under a different commander) as well as other black decks.

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Post by cheonice » 5 months ago

MrBloo wrote:
5 months ago
  1. Braids, Arisen Nightmare - This is inspired by @cheonice's thread. It'll be similar to TheGildedGoose's version where you maximize the chance of a great Turn 2-3 Braids trigger to get a surge of cards early to power the trigger later on to draw through the deck and eventually assemble the pieces while keeping the board under control using the numerous edict effects. I think the strategy can be run without going full Aristocrats and rely on some other ways to get chip damage in (like those recurring creatures) to make your drains cheaper to cast later on.
  2. Sheoldred // The True Scriptures - The card is interesting enough as a commander since at baseline it's a 5 mana 4/5 menace with a better edict on etb. I wonder if I need to run either a mill or discard package to help meet that flip requirement at my own pace, which shouldn't be too difficult in the right build. Probably should run some amount of powerful reanimator targets so I don't have to rely on just my opponents' graveyards. Her getting removed in response to paying the activation is just going to be a risk I have to live with but at least the upfront cost isn't as bad as Elesh Norn's. She does almost everything you want except generate card advantage.
  3. Tinybones, Trinket Thief - Your classic go-to little discard boy. This will let me lean little harder into the discard strategy.
  4. Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal // Temple of the Dead - Another possible pick for a discard strategy. He himself is a decent beater and you can still make bats off of other discard effects.
  5. Chainer, Dementia Master - Another classic MBC commander. This guy will let me lean closer to reanimator strategy. Life loss will need to be offset with some lifegain, probably through reanimating Gary and Cocoa Puffs (Kokusho, the Evening Star).
  6. Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose - Lifegain and lifeloss to take advantage of the lifegain? Also opens us up to the Sanguine Bond combo without having the pieces feeling too out of place on the list.
  7. Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Just generic value engine but could be too slow for my group to really abuse.
  8. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Very strong abilities that checks all the boxes but I am not sure if he's any good in a non-aristocrat shell?
  9. Ayara, First of Locthwain - Another pick similar to Yawgmoth but again, not sure if she's any good in a non-aristocrats shell.
  10. Erebos, God of the Dead - Keep the commander the same but shift the plan away from complete control of the board and head in a different direction. He does afford me to not have to run as many dedicated draw spells and frees up slots for other things and he makes a good attacker/blocker when alive, which can be easy to do with the right combination of permanents. Problem with this is that I feel most of the heat didn't come from the cards I run but just from having this guy in the zone in general so it may be a problem with no solutions.
  11. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief - I can always just go back to her I guess. She's still a 5 mv 4/4 flying that's repeatable removal on a stick, just not the most efficient but has the commander damage upside. I wouldn't want to invest too many slots into the commander damage plan. She doesn't need additional tools to hit hard and I already have a voltron deck so I don't want to overlap.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Any suggestions or constructive criticisms are welcome. I'm still new to formatting so if there are suggestions on how to make this easier to read, feel free to let me know. I love this community and I know there are plenty of monoblack control enjoyers here that can give me insights. :)
Go with Braids, Arisen Nightmare or Gonti, Lord of Luxury!

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Post by benjameenbear » 5 months ago

Moved this Thread to the Decklists thread for more appropriate placement. - benjameenbear

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Post by benjameenbear » 5 months ago

I think Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is too good not to run simply because of the synergy she brings to your Commander. Being able to completely offset the life loss of the card draw seems really valuable to me, especially since you can proactively protect her with your discard effects.

Being able to pressure life totals with her Shock-ing of opponent's on draw will help reduce the amount of mana you need for one of your big finishers as well, but she's much better at helping you not die.

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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

benjameenbear wrote:
5 months ago
I think Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is too good not to run simply because of the synergy she brings to your Commander. Being able to completely offset the life loss of the card draw seems really valuable to me, especially since you can proactively protect her with your discard effects.

Being able to pressure life totals with her Shock-ing of opponent's on draw will help reduce the amount of mana you need for one of your big finishers as well, but she's much better at helping you not die.
I agree. The only reason I didn't have her in the Erebos list was because I wanted to experiment with the creature-light build so that I can really lean into the symmetrical board control enchantments without worrying about losing my own guys but that hasn't worked all that well both in terms of effectiveness and feeling. Before I start brewing a build for another commander I might give Erebos another shot with a different looking packages.

I did notice that I am in need of both incidental lifegain and chip damage both in order to not die and to draw more aggressively and to make my finishers cheaper to cast, hastening the clock in a way.

Thanks!

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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

cheonice wrote:
5 months ago
MrBloo wrote:
5 months ago
  1. Braids, Arisen Nightmare - This is inspired by @cheonice's thread. It'll be similar to TheGildedGoose's version where you maximize the chance of a great Turn 2-3 Braids trigger to get a surge of cards early to power the trigger later on to draw through the deck and eventually assemble the pieces while keeping the board under control using the numerous edict effects. I think the strategy can be run without going full Aristocrats and rely on some other ways to get chip damage in (like those recurring creatures) to make your drains cheaper to cast later on.
  2. Sheoldred // The True Scriptures - The card is interesting enough as a commander since at baseline it's a 5 mana 4/5 menace with a better edict on etb. I wonder if I need to run either a mill or discard package to help meet that flip requirement at my own pace, which shouldn't be too difficult in the right build. Probably should run some amount of powerful reanimator targets so I don't have to rely on just my opponents' graveyards. Her getting removed in response to paying the activation is just going to be a risk I have to live with but at least the upfront cost isn't as bad as Elesh Norn's. She does almost everything you want except generate card advantage.
  3. Tinybones, Trinket Thief - Your classic go-to little discard boy. This will let me lean little harder into the discard strategy.
  4. Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal // Temple of the Dead - Another possible pick for a discard strategy. He himself is a decent beater and you can still make bats off of other discard effects.
  5. Chainer, Dementia Master - Another classic MBC commander. This guy will let me lean closer to reanimator strategy. Life loss will need to be offset with some lifegain, probably through reanimating Gary and Cocoa Puffs (Kokusho, the Evening Star).
  6. Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose - Lifegain and lifeloss to take advantage of the lifegain? Also opens us up to the Sanguine Bond combo without having the pieces feeling too out of place on the list.
  7. Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Just generic value engine but could be too slow for my group to really abuse.
  8. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Very strong abilities that checks all the boxes but I am not sure if he's any good in a non-aristocrat shell?
  9. Ayara, First of Locthwain - Another pick similar to Yawgmoth but again, not sure if she's any good in a non-aristocrats shell.
  10. Erebos, God of the Dead - Keep the commander the same but shift the plan away from complete control of the board and head in a different direction. He does afford me to not have to run as many dedicated draw spells and frees up slots for other things and he makes a good attacker/blocker when alive, which can be easy to do with the right combination of permanents. Problem with this is that I feel most of the heat didn't come from the cards I run but just from having this guy in the zone in general so it may be a problem with no solutions.
  11. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief - I can always just go back to her I guess. She's still a 5 mv 4/4 flying that's repeatable removal on a stick, just not the most efficient but has the commander damage upside. I wouldn't want to invest too many slots into the commander damage plan. She doesn't need additional tools to hit hard and I already have a voltron deck so I don't want to overlap.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Any suggestions or constructive criticisms are welcome. I'm still new to formatting so if there are suggestions on how to make this easier to read, feel free to let me know. I love this community and I know there are plenty of monoblack control enjoyers here that can give me insights. :)
Go with Braids, Arisen Nightmare or Gonti, Lord of Luxury!
Thank you!

I did realize pretty soon after I tried Tinybones a long time ago (and trying to run a more aggressive discard package in current Erebos version) that MBC and discard can overlap but there's not much in common between the two so trying to make them both work together felt clunky. I basically felt like I was doing a worse job of both. I think discard effects that are on cards that are multi-use can do okay though. Like Liliana of the Veil is not bad. I wanted to try it because Erebos allows me to stay ahead in card parity in symmetrical discard effects but it does feel like jumping through too many hoops.

I know you're a fan of Braids and Gonti so I have been following your thread for inspirations. She does check a lot of the boxes that I have on the list. I'm trying to see if I can strike a balance of having her as a commander and running enough permanents to make her trigger consistent while at the same time live the MBC fantasy of running tons of sweepers and removals and tutors and still do well without feeling bad about losing my own guys to my own sweepers.

Gonti is generically good value but there otherwise isn't much of an identity around him since he's basically a Praetor's Grasp on a stick. The whole stealing my opponents' cards isn't really an issue for me since most of the time I play with friends and not randos anyway. The upside to him not having much of a "build-aroundability" is that I won't need to dedicate slots to make him work as a commander. That's at the same time an issue though, since now it'll just be generic MBC.

Sheoldred // The True Scriptures I don't think will draw that many groans considering it's a 5 mana edict that will only get more expensive overtime and it's not an ETB I can really abuse repeatly easily. When I said I wanted to shy away from Grave Pact effects I meant when I can just easily make and sac tokens to keep the board constantly clear.

As for the lifegain suggestions, yes I am aware of other more interesting lifegain commanders but they're all non-monoblack unfortunately. I suppose if I ever wanted to try lifegain I can just try in different colors.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! I think I still need to narrow it down a little further and figure out a few things I really want and go from there.

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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

@benjameenbear So I took a shot at a version of Gonti that tries its best to check all of my boxes. Basically a traditional big mana MBC with ETB and reanimator:
Gonti, Lord of Luxury

Commander

Gonti, Lord of Luxury

Approximate Total Cost:

Any thoughts? Since you've had some experience with the commander. I'm not really looking to invest more into the "steal cards in your opponents' decks" effects other than Dauthi and Agent and Gonti himself.
Last edited by MrBloo 5 months ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by cheonice » 5 months ago

I'm not to sure about Liliana of the Dark Realms. Imo she often underperforms. Her + just gets a Swamp to your hand, her - kills her, and her ultimate takes 4 turns.
Noxious Gearhulk looks weaker than your other cards in that slot. 6 mananis a lot for a kill spell on a dude, too.

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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

cheonice wrote:
5 months ago
I'm not to sure about Liliana of the Dark Realms. Imo she often underperforms. Her + just gets a Swamp to your hand, her - kills her, and her ultimate takes 4 turns.
Noxious Gearhulk looks weaker than your other cards in that slot. 6 mananis a lot for a kill spell on a dude, too.
I already cut Liliana earlier today. She's definitely my most in-n-out cards just because as much as I love her, she's usually either a 4 mana sorcery speed Defile or a 4 mana swamp tutor that gains me 4 life. The ultimate is fantasyland (I've gotten the emblem maybe twice in my entire MtG career since I started back in Zendikar) so she's been more of a pet card than anything else.

I was considering cutting Solemn Simulacrum but I realize that he's not a bad play to make on curve if I don't feel like playing out Gonti at the time (I have a feeling that sometimes you don't want to just rush him out asap) and having value on both ends is not terrible and helps ramp me into the bigger threats. Gearhulk was considered since he's a great reanimation target and comes with some lifegain but you are right, he's pretty expensive if we're looking to cut a card.

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Post by cheonice » 5 months ago

Understandable. Lili is a fun and flexible card.

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Post by Ruiner » 5 months ago

If you are playing a Gonti, Lord of Luxury deck, then Phyrexian Reclamation should almost certainly be in the deck with all of those sac outlets. That lets you play him potentially multiple times per turn, and basically sets his commander tax permanently at 2 mana.

A friend of mine has played him semi regularly for years and that card always seems to pull its weight.

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Post by MrBloo » 5 months ago

Ruiner wrote:
5 months ago
If you are playing a Gonti, Lord of Luxury deck, then Phyrexian Reclamation should almost certainly be in the deck with all of those sac outlets. That lets you play him potentially multiple times per turn, and basically sets his commander tax permanently at 2 mana.

A friend of mine has played him semi regularly for years and that card always seems to pull its weight.
That's a good suggestion. I'll have to find room for it and give it a shot!

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Post by MrBloo » 4 months ago

So after running Gonti through some games, I found that the deck just didn't feel right for me, personally. Gonti just always feels mostly okay to play and the ETB/reanimator package felt pretty stale overall. It feels more like an accumulate-value type of deck and that is not what I am in the market for in monoblack and it just didn't feel like I had enough agency in the game.

One of the main objectives I prioritize accomplishing when building a commander deck is that I want to be able to feel good after a game even if it was a loss because I still got to do what the deck was supposed to do. The Isshin, Hakbal, and Prosper deck I previously built very much do this consistently and I usually don't ever feel like I wasted my time coming out of a game even if I didn't win. So far, this Gonti build hasn't been doing that for me so it was back to the drawing board.

Currently testing Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal // Temple of the Dead as a commander in an MBC complemented by discard strategy with a few pieces of reanimation tools to squeeze more value out of the discard. So far, I think while Aclazotz is very attractive as a commander option, he doesn't do enough in the command zone to complement the discard. It takes too long for his attack trigger to draw you cards, has no protection of his own (especially in a swords-n-path commander world we live in that invalidates his flip insurance), and costs a whopping 5 mana only for me to be longing for a Waste Not instead at 2 mana for a much stronger effect.

The decklist is located here, with tags: Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal

I feel that if I wanted to use discard as a strategy to complement my MBC strategy, I have to accomplish one or both of the following:
  1. Find a way to break symmetry so that my discard effects don't end up doing what an improperly built/piloted stax decks do, which is slow the game down for no reason with no end in sight. I feel Tinybones, Trinket Thief is a much better commander for this very reason. He also covers one of discard's weaknesses in that he has a payoff with people have no hands, at which point discard effects don't do anything.
  2. Squeeze more value out of discard effects by taking advantage of cards in your and other players' graveyards like reanimation and recursion effects. My build already does this to a degree but I could lean further into it. This would also accomplish objective 1.
I'll be switching to Tinybones and explore further. Thanks for reading

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

Thanks for the update. I found a lot of success with discard in Chainer, Dementia Master as with the right set up you can just play out of the graveyard with that deck. That said, discard is just one of those all-around feel-bad strategies that don't really lend themselves to fun and engaging games.

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MrBloo
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Post by MrBloo » 4 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
4 months ago
Thanks for the update. I found a lot of success with discard in Chainer, Dementia Master as with the right set up you can just play out of the graveyard with that deck. That said, discard is just one of those all-around feel-bad strategies that don't really lend themselves to fun and engaging games.
Yeah, that's what I've run into too. It prevents people from being able to do what they showed up to do and at the same time incentivizes them to spend whatever resource they have left to take me out so they can go back to playing magic, only to have their handless board get run over by whoever was the best at offsetting the discard (usually the blue deck that drew cards without casting more spells). It almost felt like king-making in a way in certain table matchups.

Tinybones, while being the better discard commander, definitely comes with his own drawback. He paints a glowing target on your back just like any discard commander would.

It almost feels like that a lot of times I have won my games with previous, less strong monoblack build, was because I didn't end up doing anything other than what was expected of MBC (throwing out occasional removals and sweepers and otherwise sit on mana and drawing cards) while still allowing everyone to do them. Usually someone else stuck out as the threat and they got interacted with and when those interactions are depleted I just went for it unchecked. It almost felt like I was able to do more by doing less.

I was trying to figure out a way to build MBC without being too mean about it while still being able to put up a fight against non-board-centric RUx decks that win out of hand. The tools are definitely there. We got discard, hand disruption, Opposition Agent against tutor-heavy, spellcasting tax effects like Painful Quandary even though it becomes less relevant with larger hand sizes, as well as library extraction which is extreme but effective (think Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament which isn't an issue to kick with Cabal Coffers). It's possible that it is something I will just have to live with since it is an inherent weakness of monoblack as a color identity.

With that said, I'll be going back to brainstorming what I can do to hit that sweet spot that hit all of the points I previously mentioned and find that perfect build I am always happy to play and win or lose with.

Again, thanks for reading. This MBC project is my pride and joy and I won't give up until I solve the riddle.

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Post by MrBloo » 4 months ago

Hey y'all,

I've tested the previously shared build of Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal // Temple of the Dead some more and it also didn't feel right. After the testing I've realized what I should have realized sooner: running discard as one of the strategies for my MBC isn't what I want to do. It took up too many slots to make work, and it would be hypocritical of me to prevent people from "doing their thing" with their decks when one of the main goals of this whole project in the first place is to build a deck that I can enjoy playing and come out feeling like I at least got to do what the deck was designed to do even if I ended up losing. Discard is indeed generally a feel-bad strategy and required too many things in order to keep it from becoming a boring, unengaging topdeck faceoff. Also, I have found that once the discards got going, it became a contest of whoever did best at keeping up with cards will just run away with the game and it wasn't a play pattern I was looking for.

With that, I have decided to go back to my first MBC commander, and my first commander ever, for the latest test build, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief.

I spent some time this weekend exploring other commander choices I could look into and landed back on this card. I love Drana. She doesn't do flashy powerful things that screams "kill me" (the card and/or the player) while at the same time being able to do something black is great at: killing things.

She presents a very real threat in the command zone but is easy enough to interact with that I don't end up drawing too much heat. Also, her ability can sometimes make her a hitman where her presence allows some politicking to occur which I am all for. Commander damage as a win condition also now becomes more relevant and requires very little support.

I have written lots of notes on notable includes and excludes and they may eventually be shared (or become my attempt at a primer) at a later time once I nail down the build.

Just as reference, here were my criteria for the deck:
  1. Big black mana with X-spells as finishers and other mana sinks
  2. Significant part of the deck being MBC with a pile of removals and sweepers
  3. No mana-positive rocks other than Sol Ring - This might even get cut later on since I do despise the fact that it's become somewhat of a staple and having it in your opener can make for a non-game.
  4. Having a subtheme or a theme that goes with #1 - I have chosen Politics and Commander Damage as a "splash" for this purpose.
  5. Not an aristocrats deck by nature - The strat still feels icky to me. It'll take a while for it to grow on me.
With that said, here is the link to the decklist for current build. The list has tags.

Almost every card on the "Considering" list I have notes on why I cut them. I started with something close to 165 cards before I started making cuts and ended up where it is now. Many saddish cuts were made in order to come down to 100 or in order to tune the curve. There are some cards that normally are questionable but I want to experiment with.

So far I feel much better with this list now that I have "come home" and hopefully end up doing more by doing less.

"You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me." - Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief

Thanks again for reading. Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
Last edited by MrBloo 4 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cheonice » 4 months ago

"Ka was like a wheel, its one purpose to turn, and in the end it always came back to the place where it had started." from The Waste Lands, the third book from Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

It's always nice to get back to a concept that worked in the past. A friend of mlne revisited Ashling the Pilgrim recently, which was one of my first decks, and it plays really well. Your list looks great, hope it works out as planned!

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Post by MrBloo » 4 months ago

cheonice wrote:
4 months ago
"Ka was like a wheel, its one purpose to turn, and in the end it always came back to the place where it had started." from The Waste Lands, the third book from Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

It's always nice to get back to a concept that worked in the past. A friend of mlne revisited Ashling the Pilgrim recently, which was one of my first decks, and it plays really well. Your list looks great, hope it works out as planned!
Thanks! It felt so nice to come back to something I've done and had for so long. I figured I'd really go over the top with card adds before I start cutting because in this case, I know exactly what likely will and won't work just from experience and focus on fewer aspects but do them really well. Excited to test.


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Post by MrBloo » 4 months ago

@TheGildedGoose @cheonice How many colorless lands do you guys think I can afford to run in the deck, assuming 39 lands? Currently I count 8 lands that are absolutely not capable of producing black mana without Urborg out (this excludes things like Nykthos and Thespian's Stage and such that can produce colored mana in a pinch, with setup). I feel with how pip-heavy monoblack is as well as Drana's ability, I sometimes run into issues of not having enough black sources to play the best lines. Here are what I currently have that can only produce colorless:
  1. Ancient Tomb - Requires no explanation. Urborg will also allow us to tap as swamp to preserve life later on.
  2. Arcane Lighthouse - This allows us to get through hexproof and shroud which can really help against heroic intervention and voltrons when we don't find edicts. Makes Drana that much better as a removal on a stick.
  3. Boseiju, Who Shelters All - This is partially a pet card of mine but also it's our insurance when we spend it on our wincons like Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire to make sure it resolves. We can also use it on sweepers and such to help ensure resolution as well. Urborg will also allow us to tap as swamp to preserve life later on.
  4. Deserted Temple - Used mostly to reset Cabal Coffers and can go infinite with Rings out as long as Coffers can produce 6 or more mana. Also works with Nykthos and other utility lands as well.
  5. Petrified Field - Our insurance against land destruction effects trying to target our Coffers and such since we really do rely heavily on it. It doesn't come up too often but I'd rather have it and not need it than needing it and not having it.
  6. Volrath's Stronghold - We do run creatures with powerful ETB or on-cast effects and this gives us some recursion and also lets us dodge graveyard removal in a pinch even though that's not usually something we care about.
  7. War Room - 4 mana and a life for a single card isn't the most appealing thing in the world but we sometimes just have nothing else to do with mana or are trying to hold up mana for removals or Drana's ability and this lets us more efficiently use them up if we don't need to use removals.
  8. Witch's Clinic - This card kept going in and out of the deck but I decided to keep it in this time around. It's obviously much better in a voltron-style deck where you can better ensure that you have a commander out to use it on. My reasoning for it is that we are monoblack and sometimes are in need of some lifegain and having this available has saved me more than a few times. However, it doesn't work when Drana has greaves on, and we are out 3 mana each time we use it. I feel there are better ways to gain life and we likely will use it more often for mana than for lifelink.
During time of this writing, I have swapped out Emergence Zone for a Swamp. This is probably the iffiest one of the bunch. I wanted to live the dream of being able to fire off an X-spell at instant speed or flashing in a Crypt Ghast to set up a big turn but I imagine if my opponents has interaction, they'd already all be instant anyway. Flashing in a sweeper has some appeal but I don't really have a way to capitalize. It's also much much better when used to put combo piece(s) into play and try to go off at instant speed. Losing a land just for interaction seems like a bad deal.

Let me know what you think. I feel that as monocolor, we can afford to run a few more than, say, a 3-color deck could. However, we also are pip-hungry.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 months ago

For MBC generally I think it's less about colorless lands and more about non basics in general. With Ghast and Coffers keying off of Swamps and no guarantee of always finding the Urborg every game, over time I found it was best to keep the basic count high. That said, for Drana specifically because of the double pipped activated ability I should think the colorless would have to be a no brainier to warrant inclusion.

Of those I think the weakest is Field, but I'm lucky enough to own a Yawgmoth's Will so my recursion needs are generally met.

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