Thalia and The Gitrog Monster

[Chromaticus]

I'm really tempted by Revenge of the Hunted as a one sided board wipe. (Vampiric Tutor says hi)

It's definitely not on plan for the rest of the deck, but who can resist ye olde Basilisk+Lure?

[TheGildedGoose]

Reactions to TATGM as a commander:

I'm kind of surprised by this, honestly. I showed TATGM to a casual EDH friend of mine who quit playing years ago and he said he would just scoop if that resolved on turn 3, and I kind of can't blame him. On the one hand, TATGM aren't great to remove because we can just recast them if necessary, but on the other, this expectation is only good if your opponents are actually competent players making optimal plays. I suspect the stax-y nature of the card will make her a target for removal in a few months, but we'll see.

Reactions to the deck as a whole:

Lands is one of those decks that sits in an awkward spot between being too powerful for casual EDH and not good enough for cEDH. Whenever I'm punching up with one of my decks, I always target them first because I know I can't outvalue them in the long run, but a lot of players haven't figured that out yet.

Current draw slots are:

• Ad Nauseam
• Bolas's Citadel
• Hostile Negotiations
• Necropotence
• Sensei's Divining Top
• Sylvan Library
• Tireless Tracker

I understand wanting to do it to avoid groans, totally a reasonable choice (also required if you want to play on PlayEDH lol). I love the card in the deck though. The CMC of the deck is so low, that it just makes sense. I love having both as these all in draw engines to just reload after you dump lands. Even if you just rip a bunch of lands off of it it feels great. Also it kind of functions as a tutor almost sometimes. I used it in a pinch to dig and find a removal spell before we lost the game to a combo the spot and it was great.

IMO cards like Necro, Naus and demonic tutor get a bad rap because they enable a combo but using them just for pure value or an answer just seems so damn powerful and I love

Hm, I think you're right. I just worry about compounding salt with the fetches, lots of tutors, broken draw spells, and stax in the command zone. Then again, this deck isn't exactly for playing against precons.

Overall, this has quickly become my favorite deck that I own. I was long searching for a deck that could win with combat damage, have an insane amount of resiliency, and powerful enough to keep up with some of the best non-cedh decks around. At the same time I also really wanted a deck that didn't make me feel like I was "Cheating". Tutoring for a non telegraphed combo, taking extra turns, fast mana into lockouts or insane value are all things I'm often up against and I wanted something that could compete. At the same time I didn't want to play that way myself, at least with this deck. I wanted to play the colors with the best removal and value engines and use them to get the game to a state where I can push for a win with old fashioned combat damage since that sometimes appears to be more and more rare at higher levels these days. Because of that, I don't feel the need to pull any punches it. Winning with Hoof isn't anything new but hey a critical mass of value needs to result in some way to win, I think a reasonable opponent can appreciate a swift death, Additionally it's telegraphed, and doesn't happen till turn 8+ so plenty of time to interact with me before then.

I enjoy the deck so much I've even considered writing my first primer about it. The commander isn't even officially out yet, but I can see myself playing it for a long time. I'll end with this quote from a friend which I believe perfectly captures how I view this deck:

It's very rewarding when you find a commander or deck you end up "marrying" and you spend time and get enough reps in to the point where you have enough sample size to start noticing the little nuances of the deck and get to the fine-tuning phase instead of soul searching phase. You can pilot the deck with your eyes closed. You know the deck like the back of your hand and know its strengths and weaknesses and all the lines. It's your comfort food. It's Anton's mom's ratatouille. You always come home to it. It sometimes may let you down but you know it'll always be there for you.

Yeah, this is the deck I've been waiting for for years. Abzan strategies have been so stagnant for years. Seeing something not only new, not only incredibly strong, but also a Lands enabling commander is the Junk of my dreams.

This is what I've got now.

Thalia and The Gitrog Monster

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Thalia and The Gitrog Monster

Land: 44

1 Agadeem, the Undercrypt

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bala Ged Sanctuary

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Dryad Arbor

1 Field of the Dead

1 Flooded Strand

3 Forest

1 Godless Shrine

1 Horizon Canopy

1 Indatha Triome

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Murmuring Bosk

1 Nurturing Peatland

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Silent Clearing

3 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Plains

2 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Strip Mine

2 Swamp

1 Tangled Vale

1 Temple Garden

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Wasteland

1 Windswept Heath

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

Ramp: 9

1 Avacyn's Pilgrim

1 Birds of Paradise

1 Elves of Deep Shadow

1 Farseek

1 Into the North

1 Nature's Lore

1 Rampant Growth

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Three Visits

Land Drop: 3

1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking

1 Exploration

1 Oracle of Mul Daya

Recursion: 7

1 Ancient Greenwarden

1 Conduit of Worlds

1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Eternal Witness

1 Life from the Loam

1 Ramunap Excavator

1 Splendid Reclamation

Spot Removal: 6

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Assassin's Trophy

1 Beast Within

1 Generous Gift

1 Path to Exile

1 Swords to Plowshares

Board Wipe: 4

1 Devastating Mastery

1 Farewell

1 Hour of Revelation

1 Toxic Deluge

Draw: 9

1 Ad Nauseam

1 Bolas's Citadel

1 Hostile Negotiations

1 Necropotence

1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Skeletal Scrying

1 Sylvan Library

1 The Gitrog Monster

1 Tireless Tracker

Tutor: 9

1 Crop Rotation

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Elvish Reclaimer

1 Finale of Devastation

1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Imperial Seal

1 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Natural Order

1 Vampiric Tutor

Sustain: 3

1 Glacial Chasm

1 Maze of Ith

1 Overgrown Estate

Win Condition: 5

1 Avenger of Zendikar

1 Craterhoof Behemoth

1 Felidar Retreat

1 Scute Swarm

1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Approximate Total Cost:

[pokken]

The one thing I think ya'll need to reconsider is Tranquil Thicket. Life from the Loam + Tranquil Thicket is just stupid. But the most important thing it does is let you protect your loam from grave hate at instant speed if you need to.

Also had a question: How has Farewell been? Feels...maybe a bit counter to what the deck wants to do, but also maybe needed? Maybe you can time it when your grave is not very vulnerable?

[Gorillajay]

I'm kind of surprised by this, honestly. I showed TATGM to a casual EDH friend of mine who quit playing years ago and he said he would just scoop if that resolved on turn 3, and I kind of can't blame him. On the one hand, TATGM aren't great to remove because we can just recast them if necessary, but on the other, this expectation is only good if your opponents are actually competent players making optimal plays. I suspect the stax-y nature of the card will make her a target for removal in a few months, but we'll see.

If your friend quit playing a few years ago they may not be privy to the level of power creep that has occurred on the format as a whole. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, Yarok, the Desecrated, Thrasios, Triton Hero, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Prosper, Tome-Bound are all hugely threatening commanders many which enable some pretty degenerate combos.

I think what TATGM has working in our favor is similar to the climate change conundrum @DirkGently used in his Pheldda primer.

Phelddagrif, as a deck, is like climate change. Most people agree that climate change is a problem, and that something ought to be done about it. And we'll all piss and moan about how ridiculous it is that more isn't being done, and some people are telling us that, unless we make massive changes, we're all going to be dead in a few hundreds years or whatever, but nothing much ever seems to HAPPEN. Because even though we'd LIKE to help fix the problem, fixing the problem is a big personal inconvenience. If our countries were to institute the kind of sweeping legislation that scientists recommend, it'd really hurt competitively in terms of trade. Maybe we commit to doing a little teensy tiny something, but it feels like we're all playing a sort of game of chicken where no one wants to commit too much to doing anything until everyone else has already done more.

If you can't see the parallels, your opponents may know that you're a problem, that eventually it's very likely that you'll be the winner, but there's always more pressing problems to deal with, and if they dedicate a lot of resources to fighting you and the other players don't, they're going to be at a huge disadvantage because you can put them in a miserable spot competitively by removing everything they care about and funding their enemies who are more cooperative. Sure, if everyone collectively agrees not to be swayed by your bribes, to keep fighting you with everything they've got and not let up until you're really, truly dead, then they can take you out. And if the whole world could agree to put aside short-term gains in order to really commit wholeheartedly to combating climate change, we could probably solve it. But that doesn't seem too likely, now does it?

TATGM is a value engine, as well as the rest of the deck (and lands as an archetype). It doesn't scream burst win. I'm not going to combo in an untelegraphed way. Therefore when specifically evaluating your opponents threats your deck is there at the top but it's not "Immediate". You're not really a threat on the board state until you decide to make it appear as such. Your "looming threat" when coming to the table is just "overwhelming value + tokens". Not Combo. Which at a glance, seems pretty beatable, as long as you deal with it before it gets away from you.

For example, we've mentioned how TATGM can be a target, so someone can counter them or kill her on site whenever she is out. The thing is, it just slowed the value engine down. It didn't do anything. Maybe it's specific to my meta, but removal is at a premium. I almost always want to save it for when I need to stop someone from winning, or not die myself. If I use it on a value engine like TATGM, all I felt like I did was slow that person down a little bit, however, they're a lands deck and probably have a ton more value on the way. At the same time I slowed myself down (tempo/card advantage) and my other 2 opponents are now up a card and tempo so I'm behind. It feels AWFUL.

Our percentages of winning go up or down in small increments as the game progresses, while other decks are more swingy. If Korvold, Fae-Cursed King is out of the field saccing tokens you KNOW it. Every single action that player is taking is skyrocketing them ahead, it MUST be dealt with. Not only that but decks like that are often paired with infinite combos that can go off at any time. Not having access to a infinite combo lowers your threat profile, plain and simple. Sure having a hoof in your deck is scary, but you can't win with a hoof by itself, you need a bunch of tokens, it usually takes at least a turn or 2 to get that set up. Gauging the exact turns that that will happen is sometimes difficult for an opponent. If I'm just playing some generically good land value, I may start turning the engines on on turn 6 and go for a win by turn 8. OR, I may draw out the game a little, bit extend my move, then wipe the board on 8 and win on 9/10. It's unknown knowledge and harder to assess as an individual.

However, any opponent can do the math that "X player drew quite a few cards, and tutored once. I know they're playing infinite combos, so I'm going to try to kill them or win now instead." That type of knowledge is better known/shared/discussed throughout the game and often times used against the player in question. At the same time, other other players are flying under the radar, incrementally upping their win percentage like TATGM. The best part is this isn't necessarily an incorrect assessment of the game. If you don't deal with that player who can combo, they can in fact just "have it" and end the game on the spot. Of course, just having the combo in your deck doesn't win it, but most decks I've played against that include effective 2/3 card combos often do a great job at making themselves a threat with the supporting cards they play. Heck, I am often times contributing to shutting them down I know it to be true as well.

I would be lying if I said this wasn't my absolute favorite way to play modern EDH as it's not overtly political but it's still very much there. You're relying on the humans piloting their decks to often make the correct plays, and think about the game at a macro level instead of micro. In a format of power creep and greedy plays/deckbuilding I believe that this is one of the most satisfying ways to play. It puts your opponents in a difficult position and punishes those who just want to play the most powerful deck or not really worry about what other opponents are doing. One of my other favorite decks is Marchesa Aikido, this deck functions similarly and there are several, excellent, primers, describing as the playstyle.

Lands is one of those decks that sits in an awkward spot between being too powerful for casual EDH and not good enough for cEDH. Whenever I'm punching up with one of my decks, I always target them first because I know I can't outvalue them in the long run, but a lot of players haven't figured that out yet.

I agree and I've actually had this exact same thought. Which is why I believe this deck is well positioned against a higher power meta where people are playing some fast mana and efficient combos, but not necessarily playing "CEDH" level decks. I would also like to point out that targeting them like you mentioned is not always the best option when there is a good/efficient combo deck also at that table. You can of course always hope, that other players will shut that player down while you slow down the value train, but that is sometimes a riskier line of play. I would say It's a 50/50 toss up on who to go after at that point then let the board state decide as the game evolves.

Yeah, this is the deck I've been waiting for for years. Abzan strategies have been so stagnant for years. Seeing something not only new, not only incredibly strong, but also a Lands enabling commander is the Junk of my dreams.

Agreed. Even more reason to optimize and master piloting it as such. I say bring on the salt. The above descriptions in game play allows me enough flexibility through game politics to worm may way into a win percentage that I'm happy with. It also fits within the constraints of what I want a "powerful deck" to be, no combos (I have other decks that do that) the best removal, and consistent incremental value. Even if I'm not always winning, I have satisfaction in knowing that I can pull out a hyper consistent deck with some of the best damn value engines and removal in the format. If I can interact with my opponents meaningfully and gain value and cast powerful spells. I always feel like I made a significant impact on the game no matter the outcome which is a win for me. Every time I pull this deck out I want to feel like Dominic Toretto talking about his 1970 Dodge Charger.

This is what I've got now.

Here's the differences I have vs yours:

-1 Path to Exile
-1 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Elves of Deep Shadow
-1 Wasteland
-1 Generous Gift
-1 Cavern of Souls

+1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Flagstones of Trokair
+1 Vesuva
+1 Despark
+1 Tear Asunder
+1 Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines

We're on the same count for card "types" (ramp/draw/etc). I have a few meta tweaks that I've made, the only change that i have that is not really 1:1 is that I have Norn instead of Skeletal Scrying. However, she does create extra value if she sticks around, so while not direct card draw it does gain me extra "stuff". I've also, been toying with some other removals that exile like Despark and Tear Asunder mostly due to seeing more indestructible effects. Gift and Path are obviously great cards this is probably just meta or sideboard-esque situation as you feel inclined.

[Gorillajay]

Also, I made a my first primer!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HuFXchoh ... Vxg/primer

[pokken]

Another thing to consider is that with your commander offering a sac outlet and all the dorks that Skullclamp is extremely likely to outperform most of the random card draw stuff.

I've been pretty high on clamp in Varina - it is better with more sac outlets but sacrificing a zombie for 3 cards is a lot even once a turn.


Clamp and arbor and clamp and scute swarm are pretty kabonkers fun. I did some crazy %$#% with clamp arbor in the ol' gitrog days.

Odds of better than skeletal scrying pretty damn good heh

[TheGildedGoose]

Also, I made a my first primer!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HuFXchoh ... Vxg/primer

It's well thought out and presented clearly and cohesively. Great job!

[Gorillajay]

It's well thought out and presented clearly and cohesively. Great job!

Thank you! I'm excited to share it, hope some players can use it to equally enjoy our deck!

With MoM Releasing I am eager to try Wrenn and Realmbreaker. Normally I feel like having planeswalkers in non-planeswalker focused deck archetypes are clunky but I'm willing to consider this one here.

Will likely swap out Eternal Witness. They are they same CMC and both can instantly return something to your hand. Wrenn only gets back a permanent but a majority of the time I feel like we're using this to return a win con like Avenger or Scute swarm anyway. We can't recur Wrenn itself with Volrath's Stronghold but I feel like the pros outweigh the cons.

Additionally, Wrenn is good at protecting itself, fixing our colors for things like Necropotence and the utlimate is exactly what we want in our deck. It also helps that TAGTM is VERY good at protecting Wrenn as well so we can ult.

Has anyone else seen other new cards from the set that we should consider.

[PrimevalCommander]

Wrenn only returns one of the cards that was milled by the effect from the GY, so the return feature is very limited compared to E-wit. Just throwing that out there.

[Gorillajay]

Wrenn only returns one of the cards that was milled by the effect from the GY, so the return feature is very limited compared to E-wit. Just throwing that out there.

Ah, that is a good catch. I did not realize that. Yes that does make quite a big difference.

[duducrash]

If you face a bunch of Winota, Joiner of Forces and other Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon decks the Invasion of Ravnica might be a good pick. I know some decks run that constantly face this decks run the colorless spells specifically for these scenarios

[pokken]

If you face a bunch of Winota, Joiner of Forces and other Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon decks the Invasion of Ravnica might be a good pick. I know some decks run that constantly face this decks run the colorless spells specifically for these scenarios

Tis a good reason to run to-hand land tutors so you can get Boseiju, Who Endures

[duducrash]

If you face a bunch of Winota, Joiner of Forces and other Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon decks the Invasion of Ravnica might be a good pick. I know some decks run that constantly face this decks run the colorless spells specifically for these scenarios

Tis a good reason to run to-hand land tutors so you can get Boseiju, Who Endures

Damn, I think Boseiju is the best land...... ever.

But it does not kill Magus of the Moon still! It does kill Glacial Chasm though

[charlieshulz]

Be sure to join the TATGM Discord Server here: https://discord.gg/DcGCEfb6GC !