I'm not 100% confident there's a combo here. If Wormfang Manta and Tishana's Tidebinder enter at the same time, they trigger at the same time, and I think all the targets for simultaneous triggers must be chosen before any of them are officially on the stack to target. Don't quote me on that, I may be wrong.Sefir wrote: ↑5 months agoHeliod can also have its own combo along with Wormfang Manta, Tishana's Tidebinder and one of my favorite cards ever that I always wanted to put in the deck but could not find a suitable combo for it, Parallax Wave.
Zedruu the Greatest of All Time
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
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I asked 2 different judges and both of them told me that it works. "You control both triggers, and since they're both waiting to go on the stack, you choose the order they're put on the stack" was the final answer. And they seemed to be pretty annoyed that I asked them more than once.....tstorm823 wrote: ↑5 months agoI'm not 100% confident there's a combo here. If Wormfang Manta and Tishana's Tidebinder enter at the same time, they trigger at the same time, and I think all the targets for simultaneous triggers must be chosen before any of them are officially on the stack to target. Don't quote me on that, I may be wrong.
I need to do see if it works on xmage.
EDIT: Asked a 3rd judge. They basically told me that you choose the order and you only choose targets when an effect is being put on the stack. For something like an instant or sorcery, you have to announce targets as you cast it, but for triggers that target there is no casting, just triggers going on the stack, so that's the first opportunity you could possibly choose. They also mentioned 115.1d.
"115.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object and/or player. `The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack`; see rule 603.3d."
So basically, Manta and Tidebinder etb. Their etb abilities are on the stack. I choose their order. Manta ability goes on the stack first and Tidebinder will go last. While they are still on the stack, I can declare the Manta etb ability (which I remind you, is on the stack!) as a legal target for Tidebinder's etb ability. Tidebinder's etb resolves first. Manta's etb ability gets countered.
Can't go against 3 different judges. It MUST work.
What a headache.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
I will say it's unintuitive for it to work with triggers differently than something like spells coming out of eye of the storm, but it would be far from the first time the rules were unintuitive or seemingly inconsistent, so I trust the judges.Sefir wrote: ↑5 months agoI asked 2 different judges and both of them told me that it works. "You control both triggers, and since they're both waiting to go on the stack, you choose the order they're put on the stack" was the final answer. And they seemed to be pretty annoyed that I asked them more than once.....
I need to do see if it works on xmage.
EDIT: Asked a 3rd judge. They basically told me that you choose the order and you only choose targets when an effect is being put on the stack. For something like an instant or sorcery, you have to announce targets as you cast it, but for triggers that target there is no casting, just triggers going on the stack, so that's the first opportunity you could possibly choose. They also mentioned 115.1d.
"115.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object and/or player. `The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack`; see rule 603.3d."
So basically, Manta and Tidebinder etb. Their etb abilities are on the stack. I choose their order. Manta ability goes on the stack first and Tidebinder will go last. While they are still on the stack, I can declare the Manta etb ability (which I remind you, is on the stack!) as a legal target for Tidebinder's etb ability. Tidebinder's etb resolves first. Manta's etb ability gets countered.
Can't go against 3 different judges. It MUST work.
What a headache.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Do spells coming out of eye of the storm work in a different way? I always assumed it was handled the same way as simultaneous triggers where you can order it as you like, and any spells cast first are legal targets for other spells that have yet to be cast (think Epic Experiment). Example: Casting Lightning Bolt with an Eye of the storm with an exiled Reverberate would let you end up with a stack that is [copy of bolt, copy of reverberate targeting copy of bolt] after letting the eye of the storm trigger resolve and eat the bolt.tstorm823 wrote: ↑5 months agoI will say it's unintuitive for it to work with triggers differently than something like spells coming out of eye of the storm, but it would be far from the first time the rules were unintuitive or seemingly inconsistent, so I trust the judges.Sefir wrote: ↑5 months agoI asked 2 different judges and both of them told me that it works. "You control both triggers, and since they're both waiting to go on the stack, you choose the order they're put on the stack" was the final answer. And they seemed to be pretty annoyed that I asked them more than once.....
I need to do see if it works on xmage.
EDIT: Asked a 3rd judge. They basically told me that you choose the order and you only choose targets when an effect is being put on the stack. For something like an instant or sorcery, you have to announce targets as you cast it, but for triggers that target there is no casting, just triggers going on the stack, so that's the first opportunity you could possibly choose. They also mentioned 115.1d.
"115.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object and/or player. `The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack`; see rule 603.3d."
So basically, Manta and Tidebinder etb. Their etb abilities are on the stack. I choose their order. Manta ability goes on the stack first and Tidebinder will go last. While they are still on the stack, I can declare the Manta etb ability (which I remind you, is on the stack!) as a legal target for Tidebinder's etb ability. Tidebinder's etb resolves first. Manta's etb ability gets countered.
Can't go against 3 different judges. It MUST work.
What a headache.
I also entertain the possibility that I was wrong about everything the whole time. LolRyujin76 wrote: ↑5 months agoDo spells coming out of eye of the storm work in a different way? I always assumed it was handled the same way as simultaneous triggers where you can order it as you like, and any spells cast first are legal targets for other spells that have yet to be cast (think Epic Experiment). Example: Casting Lightning Bolt with an Eye of the storm with an exiled Reverberate would let you end up with a stack that is [copy of bolt, copy of reverberate targeting copy of bolt] after letting the eye of the storm trigger resolve and eat the bolt.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
IAMAfortunecookieAMA wrote: ↑5 months agoHey tstorm, do you have any of these lists online? I would really like to see Yurlok especially but I always enjoy seeing your deckbuilding style so i'm interested in the others as well. Cheers!
Yurlok
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This deck is not well refined by any stretch of the imagination. I've not played a large sample size of games with it, and I don't know I've ever played more than a couple without making major changes, so it's hard to express any strong opinions about anything. The wins have been split half and half between really long turns involving Mindmoil or Recycle and really short turns with big Earthquakes. Limited experience, I think this is more fun to draw Mindmoil in than Zedruu even was, but without an effect like that it can feel like treading water uselessly sometimes.
It's mana-doubling x-spells shaman-tribal graveyard recursion burn, so I think the premise is appropriately messy, and it has recursion and draw enough to feel like you're always active, but the details are even messier, so it's definitely not good (yet).
It's mana-doubling x-spells shaman-tribal graveyard recursion burn, so I think the premise is appropriately messy, and it has recursion and draw enough to feel like you're always active, but the details are even messier, so it's definitely not good (yet).
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Mathas
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This deck has the opposite issue from the one above: that one is messy but knows how to durdle, this deck is too well defined and is distinctly lacking card draw relative to my other decks. I'm sure I could fix that if I wanted to try.
This deck gives opponents creatures, makes creatures attack, deters creatures from attacking me, and then punishes opponents for having creatures. Without ways to dig faster, this deck neither has enough of a threat to punch people down fast nor enough answers to fend off other players, but if you find a situation where the other players largely neutralize one another, it can do some pretty funny things to end the game.
This deck gives opponents creatures, makes creatures attack, deters creatures from attacking me, and then punishes opponents for having creatures. Without ways to dig faster, this deck neither has enough of a threat to punch people down fast nor enough answers to fend off other players, but if you find a situation where the other players largely neutralize one another, it can do some pretty funny things to end the game.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
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IAMAfortunecookieAMA
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: he / him
Christmas came early!tstorm823 wrote: ↑5 months agoIAMAfortunecookieAMA wrote: ↑5 months agoHey tstorm, do you have any of these lists online? I would really like to see Yurlok especially but I always enjoy seeing your deckbuilding style so i'm interested in the others as well. Cheers!YurlokShowHideThis deck is not well refined by any stretch of the imagination. I've not played a large sample size of games with it, and I don't know I've ever played more than a couple without making major changes, so it's hard to express any strong opinions about anything. The wins have been split half and half between really long turns involving Mindmoil or Recycle and really short turns with big Earthquakes. Limited experience, I think this is more fun to draw Mindmoil in than Zedruu even was, but without an effect like that it can feel like treading water uselessly sometimes.
It's mana-doubling x-spells shaman-tribal graveyard recursion burn, so I think the premise is appropriately messy, and it has recursion and draw enough to feel like you're always active, but the details are even messier, so it's definitely not good (yet).DecklistApproximate Total Cost:
MathasShowHideThis deck has the opposite issue from the one above: that one is messy but knows how to durdle, this deck is too well defined and is distinctly lacking card draw relative to my other decks. I'm sure I could fix that if I wanted to try.
This deck gives opponents creatures, makes creatures attack, deters creatures from attacking me, and then punishes opponents for having creatures. Without ways to dig faster, this deck neither has enough of a threat to punch people down fast nor enough answers to fend off other players, but if you find a situation where the other players largely neutralize one another, it can do some pretty funny things to end the game.
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I am thinking about giving Jeska's Will a try in the deck. While I always thought that the card is highly overvalued by the community, I recognise it is a good card in general and it can be extra good in my list. It is like a much weaker pseudo Time Spiral, but contrary to Time Spiral it does not go infinite just with Rootha, Mercurial Artist and a flash enabler due to the fact that Jeska's Will creates only R mana. It can obviously be used as the fourth "winning card in the Rotha infinites ofc. More importantly, it will allow me to put back my beloved package Eye of the Storm since now I will have a winning combo with Eye+Jeska's Will+Pull from Eternity+Mystic Retrieval (apart from my older Eye+Pull+Echo of Eons+Smothering Tithe).
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
The thing I have been pondering most lately is Agatha's Soul Cauldron. I'm not typically attracted to cards that are known to combo, especially expensive ones played in in competitive formats, but just the minor upsides before sending abilities across the board are so dense:
1) It's graveyard hate.
2) It can put counters on Crystalline Crawler or Walking Archive.
3) It makes the activation costs for Zedruu the Greathearted and Inferno Titan much more easily achievable.
4) It exiles at instant speed for Mirror of Fate.
5) Counters allow for more lopsided draw/discard with Vanish into Memory.
But then the splashy plays from transferring abilities:
1) Give any double-faced creature the ability from Golden Guardian.
2) Give Swans of Bryn Argoll the ability from Golden Guardian.
3) Put a counter on Golden Guardian to make it a 5/5 to fight Swans for 5 damage and survive.
4) Give anything (colorless) firebreathing with Inferno Titan.
5) Make any creature with a +1/+1 counter into Rootha, Mercurial Artist (would work really well with Crystalline Crawler).
6) Make all my creatures Crystalline Crawlers (would go nuts with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper).
7) Give even just Walking Archive the abilities from Crystalline Crawler.
There's almost certainly enough there with just what I'm already playing, but that doesn't stop me from considering other possibilities, especially things from that counters matter package. Rise and Shine makes an army of creatures with the counters built in. Cathars' Crusade or Archangel of Thune put counters across the board. And then the other perspective would be adding creatures with powerful activated abilities. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is classic, or you could have all your creatures by Magus of the Mind.
1) It's graveyard hate.
2) It can put counters on Crystalline Crawler or Walking Archive.
3) It makes the activation costs for Zedruu the Greathearted and Inferno Titan much more easily achievable.
4) It exiles at instant speed for Mirror of Fate.
5) Counters allow for more lopsided draw/discard with Vanish into Memory.
But then the splashy plays from transferring abilities:
1) Give any double-faced creature the ability from Golden Guardian.
2) Give Swans of Bryn Argoll the ability from Golden Guardian.
3) Put a counter on Golden Guardian to make it a 5/5 to fight Swans for 5 damage and survive.
4) Give anything (colorless) firebreathing with Inferno Titan.
5) Make any creature with a +1/+1 counter into Rootha, Mercurial Artist (would work really well with Crystalline Crawler).
6) Make all my creatures Crystalline Crawlers (would go nuts with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper).
7) Give even just Walking Archive the abilities from Crystalline Crawler.
There's almost certainly enough there with just what I'm already playing, but that doesn't stop me from considering other possibilities, especially things from that counters matter package. Rise and Shine makes an army of creatures with the counters built in. Cathars' Crusade or Archangel of Thune put counters across the board. And then the other perspective would be adding creatures with powerful activated abilities. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is classic, or you could have all your creatures by Magus of the Mind.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I think Agatha's Soul Cauldron could be awesome. I initially didn't think too highly of it because my build has so few creatures with activated abilities, but I think a couple card swaps could make using the activated ability copying much more effective. Morphling or Torchling could be pretty fun with the untap and shroud / redirect abilities, but I'm not sure if they are good enough by themselves.tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 months agoThe thing I have been pondering most lately is Agatha's Soul Cauldron. I'm not typically attracted to cards that are known to combo, especially expensive ones played in in competitive formats, but just the minor upsides before sending abilities across the board are so dense:
1) It's graveyard hate.
2) It can put counters on Crystalline Crawler or Walking Archive.
3) It makes the activation costs for Zedruu the Greathearted and Inferno Titan much more easily achievable.
4) It exiles at instant speed for Mirror of Fate.
5) Counters allow for more lopsided draw/discard with Vanish into Memory.
But then the splashy plays from transferring abilities:
1) Give any double-faced creature the ability from Golden Guardian.
2) Give Swans of Bryn Argoll the ability from Golden Guardian.
3) Put a counter on Golden Guardian to make it a 5/5 to fight Swans for 5 damage and survive.
4) Give anything (colorless) firebreathing with Inferno Titan.
5) Make any creature with a +1/+1 counter into Rootha, Mercurial Artist (would work really well with Crystalline Crawler).
6) Make all my creatures Crystalline Crawlers (would go nuts with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper).
7) Give even just Walking Archive the abilities from Crystalline Crawler.
There's almost certainly enough there with just what I'm already playing, but that doesn't stop me from considering other possibilities, especially things from that counters matter package. Rise and Shine makes an army of creatures with the counters built in. Cathars' Crusade or Archangel of Thune put counters across the board. And then the other perspective would be adding creatures with powerful activated abilities. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is classic, or you could have all your creatures by Magus of the Mind.
As far as Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper goes, i think Deekah, Fractal Theorist is better. It triggers more often, most likely creates more counters per trigger on average, and creates additional permanents instead of turning lands into creatures. I personally don't like the downside of my lands being destroyed easily to removal. A bonus with deekah is that she has an activated ability, so if she was ever destroyed, you could use the cauldron to still make your fractals or any other token (made with cadric or replication technique) unblockable.
If you are building in a vacuum around the counters-matter concept, I'm inclined to agree about Deekah vs Dar, but Noyan Dar does a few things different worth consideration. Noyan Dar's first inclusion here was for the synergy with Jeskai Ascendancy, as making lands into creatures lets Ascendancy untap them. Noyan Dar also has the option to go tall instead of wide, you can stack all those counters onto one creature, which is nice with something like Vanish into Memory. And recently I've been trying to be goofy like making Magosi, the Waterveil into a creature to Lore Drakkis and then return both to hand.Zyren wrote: ↑4 months agoI think Agatha's Soul Cauldron could be awesome. I initially didn't think too highly of it because my build has so few creatures with activated abilities, but I think a couple card swaps could make using the activated ability copying much more effective. Morphling or Torchling could be pretty fun with the untap and shroud / redirect abilities, but I'm not sure if they are good enough by themselves.
As far as Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper goes, i think Deekah, Fractal Theorist is better. It triggers more often, most likely creates more counters per trigger on average, and creates additional permanents instead of turning lands into creatures. I personally don't like the downside of my lands being destroyed easily to removal. A bonus with deekah is that she has an activated ability, so if she was ever destroyed, you could use the cauldron to still make your fractals or any other token (made with cadric or replication technique) unblockable.
Deekah does trigger more often, and doesn't make your lands die to board wipes, and does give unblockable, I just want to spread to different strategies rather than optimize one. Off the top of my head, Deekah would go well with builds playing Coveted Jewel to retrieve it.
Morphling and Torchling, at minimum, would make an infinite mana combo with Agatha's Soul Cauldron, Gilded Lotus, and March of the Machines (or anything else that makes Lotus a creature). That also applies to almost anything with an untap ability. Hateflayer is probably the funniest of the things with the untap symbol, but it's also a 7 mana creature of questionable value. Torchling might genuinely be the most interesting to me for a few reasons:
1) The forced block makes it pseudo-removal at times.
2) The forced block can draw cards with a donated Swans of Bryn Argoll.
3) The redirect can probably do something funny with Precursor Golem.
4) The pump ability also acts as a way to get it into the bin for Cauldron, which then also gives your other creatures a way to die on demand for the same reason.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Starke of Rath is a very promising card for Agatha's Soul Cauldron . This guy can act as removal and give your opponents permanents.
Ioreth of the Healing House could replace unbender tine.
Coretapper could be an interesting card for a counters matters deck, but I don't have enough permanents that use charge counters for it to be consistently good when drawn. Mikaeus, the Lunarch is also interesting.
I am going to try to playtest with this version of the counters matter deck and see how it plays with the cauldron.
notable changes from the previous list besides the cauldron, starke, and ioreth:
- I replaced the scry lands with the 3 dual artifact indestructible lands. Scry is good, but the artifact lands have synergy with Rise and Shine, is an indestructible target for Starke of Rath, and a possible target for Dismantle. these lands would be pretty solid with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, but I still think in my deck Deekah, Fractal Theorist is better.
- I replaced Dictate of Kruphix with Oath of Lieges. @Sefir had used it in the past (props for the rec), and I can see how it could delay games, but the synergy with River Song cannot be ignored.
- I replaced The Reality Chip with Dockside Extortionist. Rise and Shine synergizes VERY well with it. same with Inspiring Statuary . The goblin can also be used to replace Turnabout in the combo with Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Leave // Chance + Vedalken Orrery if you can generate enough treasures with dockside. Cauldron with rootha removed to return dockside to my hand to copy a spell sounds pretty OP to me.
- I replaced Jeskai Charm with Angelfire Ignition. Angelfire can still be used for arcbond combos (i removed arcbond though) and All Will Be One combos. Angelfire gives counters and can give fairly large creatures trample. Not that attacking is a primary strategy of ours, but with plenty of ways to get large creatures in this version, its definitely a viable option. I've added enough removal with other cards that i think the loss of the creature removal from the charm isn't as bad. Playtesting will see if I like it.
- I replaced Celestial Colonnade with Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore. Glasspool mimic can copy any legend on my board to send it to the graveyard so it can be exiled by the cauldron. It can also copy a bunch of other useful creatures we have.
- Leave // Chance and Venser, the Sojourner can get him back for you on your turn after you draw from Zedruu.
- With Minamo, School at Water's Edge / Unbender Tine + an indestructible artifact / creature, you can use Starke's activated ability to target your indestructible artifact / creature, untap it, then use its activated ability again on an opponents artifact / creature, then let them resolve. You will be back in control of Starke. Or you could kill 2 things and let them control Starke.
- you could do some crazy stuff with Mind Over Matter and put a whole bunch of his activated abilities on the stack to destroy a bunch of permanents and then give over control or get it back by targeting an indestructible artifact / creature you own.
- Liquimetal Torque + Opalescence lets you target non artifacts / creatures.
- might also be worth adding Homeward Path into the deck.
- starke + Torchling + cauldron leads to some pretty crazy removal + protection.
Ioreth of the Healing House could replace unbender tine.
- cauldron with Ioreth removed + 3 legendary creatures (2 with counters) with counters + relic of legends is infinite mana.
- cauldron with Ioreth removed + starke and two legendary creatures with counters, you can destroy all opponents' artifacts and creatures. With kwain you can draw your deck.
- cauldron with Ioreth removed + 3 legendary creatures with counters + another non-legendary creature with a tap activated ability is infinite activations.
- cadric + Ioreth + relic of legends + some way to give the original ioleth haste (I run Angelfire Ignition) is infinite mana
- Ioreth + sakashima + another legend + relic of legends is infinite mana. or if the legend has an activated ability, unlimited uses of the activated ability.
- it can lock down opponents from playing spells with Knowledge Pool , Possibility Storm , and Eye of the Storm .
- It's protection and can be used as a combo piece for arcbond.
- it can make other creatures legendary with the ring to synergize with relic of legends, ioreth, and minamo.
- its a sac outlet with cauldron to prevent creatures from getting exiled
- it can be used as a discard outlet with the ring to help put creatures in the graveyard for the cauldron
Coretapper could be an interesting card for a counters matters deck, but I don't have enough permanents that use charge counters for it to be consistently good when drawn. Mikaeus, the Lunarch is also interesting.
I am going to try to playtest with this version of the counters matter deck and see how it plays with the cauldron.
counters matter deck with cauldron
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- I replaced the scry lands with the 3 dual artifact indestructible lands. Scry is good, but the artifact lands have synergy with Rise and Shine, is an indestructible target for Starke of Rath, and a possible target for Dismantle. these lands would be pretty solid with Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper, but I still think in my deck Deekah, Fractal Theorist is better.
- I replaced Dictate of Kruphix with Oath of Lieges. @Sefir had used it in the past (props for the rec), and I can see how it could delay games, but the synergy with River Song cannot be ignored.
- I replaced The Reality Chip with Dockside Extortionist. Rise and Shine synergizes VERY well with it. same with Inspiring Statuary . The goblin can also be used to replace Turnabout in the combo with Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Leave // Chance + Vedalken Orrery if you can generate enough treasures with dockside. Cauldron with rootha removed to return dockside to my hand to copy a spell sounds pretty OP to me.
- I replaced Jeskai Charm with Angelfire Ignition. Angelfire can still be used for arcbond combos (i removed arcbond though) and All Will Be One combos. Angelfire gives counters and can give fairly large creatures trample. Not that attacking is a primary strategy of ours, but with plenty of ways to get large creatures in this version, its definitely a viable option. I've added enough removal with other cards that i think the loss of the creature removal from the charm isn't as bad. Playtesting will see if I like it.
- I replaced Celestial Colonnade with Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore. Glasspool mimic can copy any legend on my board to send it to the graveyard so it can be exiled by the cauldron. It can also copy a bunch of other useful creatures we have.
You are welcome. Tbh, Oath is like a pet card of mine and I use it in many decks. It does slow the game down from shuffling, but on the other hand it accelerates gameplay by providing more resources. One of my fav cards of all time.Zyren wrote: ↑4 months ago
- I replaced Dictate of Kruphix with Oath of Lieges. @Sefir had used it in the past (props for the rec), and I can see how it could delay games, but the synergy with River Song cannot be ignored.
Perhaps you are aiming for a high powered-edh table, but I do have to note that Kwain and MoM are a 2-card infinite.
Last edited by Sefir 4 months ago, edited 2 times in total.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
I didn't realize that. I'll have to take kwain out then. I'll prob bring back dictate of kruphix. I also know I still have time spiral + rootha + vedalken orrery, I'll have to find something to replace time spiral.
I had my first win with Wormfang Manta+Tishana's Tidebinder+Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse+Parallax Wave. It was great and everything fell in place very natural. And while I did discover an anti-synergy in my list (multiple upkeeps deplete Wave's fade counters faster), the Heliod+Wave dance was extremely powerful on its own both in keeping a board in check and saving my own stuff. Tidebinder was also very useful on its own too (like, saving me from death by a Booby Trap).
I have yet to put a Jeska's Will into an Eye of the Storm or do the Displacer Kitten+Venser, Shaper Savant+Bonus Round+Jeska's Will combo, but I was able to cast it after a Temporal Cascade, use a few of the R mana to retrieve it with Mystic Retrieval and replay it and gain a total of 23 R mana (+6 extra cards to cast), so there's that as far as Time Spiral impressions goes....
I have yet to put a Jeska's Will into an Eye of the Storm or do the Displacer Kitten+Venser, Shaper Savant+Bonus Round+Jeska's Will combo, but I was able to cast it after a Temporal Cascade, use a few of the R mana to retrieve it with Mystic Retrieval and replay it and gain a total of 23 R mana (+6 extra cards to cast), so there's that as far as Time Spiral impressions goes....
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
I was going to apologize for being so behind here cause I've been busy, then I saw it's only been three days. Time is weird.
1) If we pass it over as intended, people will probably use it, but if they use it on each other we'll keep drawing with Zedruu. So unless there is a big threat that needs immediate answer, the default target is us, and the things it can target are probably mostly or entirely mana rocks, howling mines, and Zedruu. We've thus played a card that actively destroys our own strategy.
2) If we never do the above, if we only use Starke in situations where we can either make big gains or regain control immediately, Starke still acts as a rattlesnake. To anyone unfamiliar with Magic jargon, a rattlesnake is a card that sits in play and threatens interaction. Rattlesnakes disincentivize action. A Royal Assassin sitting in play tells the rest of the table to avoid tapping their creatures. Starke would tell people to avoid playing any big artifacts or creatures. In the situation where we can machinegun boards, it would tell people not to play artifacts or creatures at all until Starke is gone. This goes against our strategy in a more subtle way. With everyone drawing lots of cards, they have access to tons of options they want to take, and would rather not discard to hand size, which does the opposite of a rattlesnake: we're encouraging people to play out more stuff. And then with a decent pile of instant speed interaction and a couple flash enablers, we get to be the opportunist that waits for people to be caught tapped out. A rattlesnake like Starke telling people to keep their threats in hand and wait for someone to spend removal on us makes most of the rest of this deck less effective.
I have Catch // Release as a haste granter currently, but since Cadric, Soul Kindler already grants haste, clones or bounce spells also complete this combo. But, notably, Venser, Shaper Savant does this too well, as with Cadric in play and enough mana you can bounce multiple times, get to 3 hasty Ioreths, make infinite mana without the Relic, and make infinite hasty attackers with a 3-card combo.
That Venser is decidedly a pet card of mine, it will take a while to talk myself into not playing him, but I've pretty much already sold myself on cutting the Displacer Kitten and related cards, so that might happen.
Starke is certainly an interesting card, and by no means do I intend to dismiss or minimize the value (strategic or entertainment) of the synergies you've identified, but I think Starke would be a bad inclusion. Starke gives our opponent's options, which in many cases I am all for, but we have to consider what options they'd be incentivized to take. How would we expect people to respond to Starke:Zyren wrote: ↑4 months agoStarke of Rath is a very promising card for Agatha's Soul Cauldron . This guy can act as removal and give your opponents permanents.
[condensed for space, but plenty of good stuff here]
1) If we pass it over as intended, people will probably use it, but if they use it on each other we'll keep drawing with Zedruu. So unless there is a big threat that needs immediate answer, the default target is us, and the things it can target are probably mostly or entirely mana rocks, howling mines, and Zedruu. We've thus played a card that actively destroys our own strategy.
2) If we never do the above, if we only use Starke in situations where we can either make big gains or regain control immediately, Starke still acts as a rattlesnake. To anyone unfamiliar with Magic jargon, a rattlesnake is a card that sits in play and threatens interaction. Rattlesnakes disincentivize action. A Royal Assassin sitting in play tells the rest of the table to avoid tapping their creatures. Starke would tell people to avoid playing any big artifacts or creatures. In the situation where we can machinegun boards, it would tell people not to play artifacts or creatures at all until Starke is gone. This goes against our strategy in a more subtle way. With everyone drawing lots of cards, they have access to tons of options they want to take, and would rather not discard to hand size, which does the opposite of a rattlesnake: we're encouraging people to play out more stuff. And then with a decent pile of instant speed interaction and a couple flash enablers, we get to be the opportunist that waits for people to be caught tapped out. A rattlesnake like Starke telling people to keep their threats in hand and wait for someone to spend removal on us makes most of the rest of this deck less effective.
Ioreth is a card I considered on release. I'd prefer not to cut Unbender Tine, just as a card that under the right circumstance can add mana the turn I draw it, but it could be worthwhile, and both is also an option.Ioreth of the Healing House could replace unbender tine.
cadric + Ioreth + relic of legends + some way to give the original ioleth haste (I run Angelfire Ignition) is infinite mana
I have Catch // Release as a haste granter currently, but since Cadric, Soul Kindler already grants haste, clones or bounce spells also complete this combo. But, notably, Venser, Shaper Savant does this too well, as with Cadric in play and enough mana you can bounce multiple times, get to 3 hasty Ioreths, make infinite mana without the Relic, and make infinite hasty attackers with a 3-card combo.
That Venser is decidedly a pet card of mine, it will take a while to talk myself into not playing him, but I've pretty much already sold myself on cutting the Displacer Kitten and related cards, so that might happen.
I know this doesn't technically end the game, but I call this a 2-card combo.Boromir, Warden of the Tower is also interesting.
it can lock down opponents from playing spells with Knowledge Pool , Possibility Storm , and Eye of the Storm .
This is an aspect of Parallax Wave I admittedly never considered (though too be fair, my lack of thought is mostly cause I like Opalescence). Basically any bounce or recursion can turn Wave into a tempo machine. Without some combo to exile people's creatures forever, that could make for some interesting and technical board states.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I always appreciate the time and effort you put into replying to my posts. I definitely see where you are coming from with both points. He is very risky, and I'll probably take him out if i find that he's too much of a con than a pro. I haven't played enough to see for myself and make that decision yet. If he doesn't work out, I was thinking of replacing him with Gnostro, Voice of the Crags. Gnostro + Swans of Bryn Argoll + Mind Over Matter + casting another spell (by your definition, is this a 3 or 4 card combo?) is an infinite draw combo. Otherwise, I'll probably replace with Torchling.tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 months agoI was going to apologize for being so behind here cause I've been busy, then I saw it's only been three days. Time is weird.Starke is certainly an interesting card, and by no means do I intend to dismiss or minimize the value (strategic or entertainment) of the synergies you've identified, but I think Starke would be a bad inclusion. Starke gives our opponent's options, which in many cases I am all for, but we have to consider what options they'd be incentivized to take. How would we expect people to respond to Starke:Zyren wrote: ↑4 months agoStarke of Rath is a very promising card for Agatha's Soul Cauldron . This guy can act as removal and give your opponents permanents.
[condensed for space, but plenty of good stuff here]
1) If we pass it over as intended, people will probably use it, but if they use it on each other we'll keep drawing with Zedruu. So unless there is a big threat that needs immediate answer, the default target is us, and the things it can target are probably mostly or entirely mana rocks, howling mines, and Zedruu. We've thus played a card that actively destroys our own strategy.
2) If we never do the above, if we only use Starke in situations where we can either make big gains or regain control immediately, Starke still acts as a rattlesnake. To anyone unfamiliar with Magic jargon, a rattlesnake is a card that sits in play and threatens interaction. Rattlesnakes disincentivize action. A Royal Assassin sitting in play tells the rest of the table to avoid tapping their creatures. Starke would tell people to avoid playing any big artifacts or creatures. In the situation where we can machinegun boards, it would tell people not to play artifacts or creatures at all until Starke is gone. This goes against our strategy in a more subtle way. With everyone drawing lots of cards, they have access to tons of options they want to take, and would rather not discard to hand size, which does the opposite of a rattlesnake: we're encouraging people to play out more stuff. And then with a decent pile of instant speed interaction and a couple flash enablers, we get to be the opportunist that waits for people to be caught tapped out. A rattlesnake like Starke telling people to keep their threats in hand and wait for someone to spend removal on us makes most of the rest of this deck less effective.
With all the Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse talk, I realized that he could flip Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun with Agatha's Soul Cauldron + Rise and Shine instead of having to use Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, I know you brought it up with agatha + golden guardian, but i didnt put two and two together with heliod. I might try him out instead of Vedalken Orrery.tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 months agoThis is an aspect of Parallax Wave I admittedly never considered (though too be fair, my lack of thought is mostly cause I like Opalescence). Basically any bounce or recursion can turn Wave into a tempo machine. Without some combo to exile people's creatures forever, that could make for some interesting and technical board states.
I am testing replacing Liquimetal Torque with Helm of Awakening. Helm can be donated, indirectly gives us mana, and we can most likely use it better than our opponents since we draw so many cards. It can also help with initial mana requirements for certain infinite combos.
I have been eyeing Clockspinning, but having trouble finding what to take out. I know i need to replace time spiral, but not sure if that's a suitable swap. Clockspinning can:
- build up storm
- continuously trigger saheeli, noyan dar, deekah, and chrome host seedshark
- add counters to things like astral cornucopia for good value.
- remove a charge counter from Blast Zone to nuke all tokens. this + resourceful defense could create a huge creature with chrome host seedshark and / or deekah tokens.
- create an infinite turn combo with Magosi, the Waterveil, Thespian's Stage, and resourceful defense. Prereq: Have Magosi out untapped, thespians sage copied as magosi untapped. Tap magosi to put an eon counter on it and lose a turn. Cast clockspinning with buyback to put an eon counter on magosi. Return magosi to hand and take an extra turn. The extra counter gets put on thespians sage with resourceful defense. Cast clockspinning again to put an eon counter on thespians sage. play magosi form your hand. take an extra turn with thespians sage, move the eon counter to magosi. You now netted one extra turn. Next turn, put thespians sage out. turn it into Magosi. Play clockspinning to add an eon counter on Magosi. return Magosi to hand, take an extra turn and move the counter to thespians sage. Play magosi from your hand. Rinse and repeat rotating between using magosi and thespians sage to take extra turns.
- win with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse + opponent drawing 3 cards + Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun at 20+ life (or a way of getting 20 blue) + Darksteel Reactor.
Ya'll are really trying to sell me on Heliod, lol. Between this observation and my brain trying to figure out if I can make a loop with Heliod and Detention Sphere like what was suggested with Parallax Wave, there's a lot more to chew on there than there was a few days ago.Zyren wrote: ↑4 months agoWith all the Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse talk, I realized that he could flip Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun with Agatha's Soul Cauldron + Rise and Shine instead of having to use Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, I know you brought it up with agatha + golden guardian, but i didnt put two and two together with heliod. I might try him out instead of Vedalken Orrery.
That's one that's come up a few times. It also really notably triggers Jeskai Ascendancy, which combos if you get creatures together that can tap for 4 or more mana.I have been eyeing Clockspinning, but having trouble finding what to take out. I know i need to replace time spiral, but not sure if that's a suitable swap. Clockspinning can:
continuously trigger saheeli, noyan dar, deekah, and chrome host seedshark
My definition honestly gets pretty malleable in ways. On one hand, you don't need another spell if you cast Swans or MoM, Gnostro can do damage from the storm from just those few cards. On the other hand, I've definitely rationalized combos as "3 cards and a condition" rather than 4 cards. Like that Ioreth/Venser/Cadric combo I called out, if it really came down to it, "3 cards plus 20 mana" is harder to pull off than most 4-cards. So if you want to blur the lines for something you think is cool and is even just slightly harder than assembling 3-cards, you'd be in good company.Zyren wrote: ↑4 months agoGnostro, Voice of the Crags. Gnostro + Swans of Bryn Argoll + Mind Over Matter + casting another spell (by your definition, is this a 3 or 4 card combo?)
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
The most classic example of that is: a Mirror of Fate, a copy of said Mirror with whatever and something that will draw a bunch of cards (Temporal Cascade, Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn, etc) basically allows you to draw whatever 4-cards you need to combo, thus making them a 3-card combo themselves.tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 months agoMy definition honestly gets pretty malleable in ways. On one hand, you don't need another spell if you cast Swans or MoM, Gnostro can do damage from the storm from just those few cards. On the other hand, I've definitely rationalized combos as "3 cards and a condition" rather than 4 cards. Like that Ioreth/Venser/Cadric combo I called out, if it really came down to it, "3 cards plus 20 mana" is harder to pull off than most 4-cards. So if you want to blur the lines for something you think is cool and is even just slightly harder than assembling 3-cards, you'd be in good company.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
The more I think about clockspinning, the more combos I find. I already made room for it by removing Dance of the Manse. Heres a new infinite turn / creature combo that I found in my deck:tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 months agoThat's one that's come up a few times. It also really notably triggers Jeskai Ascendancy, which combos if you get creatures together that can tap for 4 or more mana.Zyren wrote: ↑4 months ago
I have been eyeing Clockspinning, but having trouble finding what to take out. I know i need to replace time spiral, but not sure if that's a suitable swap. Clockspinning can:
continuously trigger saheeli, noyan dar, deekah, and chrome host seedshark
Regenerations Restored + Opalescence + Resourceful Defense / Nesting Grounds + Saheeli, Sublime Artificer + Clockspinning
- Have Regenerations restored, opalesence, resourceful defense, and saheeli on the board.
- cast clockspinning twice, adding 2 counters to saheeli and creating 2 servos.
- use saheeli's -2 to make one of the servos into regeneration's restored
- use resourceful defense or nesting grounds to put a time counter on the copied regeneration's restored
- use clockspinning or resourceful defense or nesting grounds to remove the counter / move the counter on the copies regenerations restored back onto the original regeneration's restored. This will trigger the extra turn.
- next turn, repeat again. use clockspinning to add extra counters to the original regeneration's restored once the time counters get low.
On a side note, its unfortunate vanishing and fading use different counter types. moving all time counters from regenerations restored to parallax wave could have been a thing.
I love this thread, and I love this deck.
Thank you Tstorm and everyone else who has contributed.
(I'd love to see your current list, Sefir.)
I have been playing a Maze's End deck as a combo/alt wincon deck for a while (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/tsD8auz680u48LR64rio7A), and I had been trying to win via Barren Glory (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7Z5khp5-vEmmQ5E1-pjRCQ), but that deck was always pointed to the same thing. I love this deck because it may win via Barren Glory, but there are lots of weird combos to piece together on the way.
(As an aside, my ultimate commander achievement would be to win with Hedron Archive, but even with Un- cards, I haven't put a deck together yet.)
To the topic at hand, I have a couple questions about the manabase:
1) I assume the choice of Signets over Talismans is primarily due to the need for colored mana.
2) I understand the reluctance to put complete cycles of lands in the deck to preserve the chaos, but why no bond lands (Sea of Clouds, et al.)?
3) Do the manlands really enable that much? If so, how about Restless Bivouac?
I have built the deck, and I'm goldfishing to try to learn some of the basics.
I expect to bring it to my next commander outing, and I'm excited to give it a try!
Thanks again for the detailed primer, the thoughtful discussion, and a wonderful Zedruu deck.
Thank you Tstorm and everyone else who has contributed.
(I'd love to see your current list, Sefir.)
I have been playing a Maze's End deck as a combo/alt wincon deck for a while (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/tsD8auz680u48LR64rio7A), and I had been trying to win via Barren Glory (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7Z5khp5-vEmmQ5E1-pjRCQ), but that deck was always pointed to the same thing. I love this deck because it may win via Barren Glory, but there are lots of weird combos to piece together on the way.
(As an aside, my ultimate commander achievement would be to win with Hedron Archive, but even with Un- cards, I haven't put a deck together yet.)
To the topic at hand, I have a couple questions about the manabase:
1) I assume the choice of Signets over Talismans is primarily due to the need for colored mana.
2) I understand the reluctance to put complete cycles of lands in the deck to preserve the chaos, but why no bond lands (Sea of Clouds, et al.)?
3) Do the manlands really enable that much? If so, how about Restless Bivouac?
I have built the deck, and I'm goldfishing to try to learn some of the basics.
I expect to bring it to my next commander outing, and I'm excited to give it a try!
Thanks again for the detailed primer, the thoughtful discussion, and a wonderful Zedruu deck.
Happy to see you enjoying this chaos. Can't speak for the other Zedruu pilots, but I would like to throw in my 2 cents.Larken wrote: ↑4 months agoI love this thread, and I love this deck.
Thank you Tstorm and everyone else who has contributed.
(I'd love to see your current list, Sefir.)
I have been playing a Maze's End deck as a combo/alt wincon deck for a while (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/tsD8auz680u48LR64rio7A), and I had been trying to win via Barren Glory (https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7Z5khp5-vEmmQ5E1-pjRCQ), but that deck was always pointed to the same thing. I love this deck because it may win via Barren Glory, but there are lots of weird combos to piece together on the way.
(As an aside, my ultimate commander achievement would be to win with Hedron Archive, but even with Un- cards, I haven't put a deck together yet.)
To the topic at hand, I have a couple questions about the manabase:
1) I assume the choice of Signets over Talismans is primarily due to the need for colored mana.
2) I understand the reluctance to put complete cycles of lands in the deck to preserve the chaos, but why no bond lands (Sea of Clouds, et al.)?
3) Do the manlands really enable that much? If so, how about Restless Bivouac?
I have built the deck, and I'm goldfishing to try to learn some of the basics.
I expect to bring it to my next commander outing, and I'm excited to give it a try!
Thanks again for the detailed primer, the thoughtful discussion, and a wonderful Zedruu deck.
1) You have already pointed out that signets can fix coloured mana better than the talismans, but another consideration is that the life loss from the talismans can be detrimental when performing Jeskai Ascendancy and artifact animation synergies.
2) The incomplete land cycles in tstorms list is (probably) to account for the fact that his list is heavier on the blue pips (gotta cast that Mind Over Matter). The lack of bond lands is (also probably) personal preference. I see no harm in adding them in if you have them in your collection.
3) The manlands play well with the aforementioned Jeskai Ascendancy. Other synergy pieces include Mirrorweave and Vanish into Memory. Restless Anchorage and Restless Spire are the two that I run in my own list. Restless Bivouac and by extension Needle Spires are fine cards, but it really depends on your list and mana pip distribution. First and foremost, these lands should help with your mana, the man part of manlands is just an extra synergy angle.
Glad you like it!
I have post my list among other members a few pages ago.
Here it is! It is recently updated:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5575897#paper
Last edited by Sefir 4 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Soul of Windgrace Loam BalanceThe Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Hans Eriksson Smash
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Thank you for the comment!
Yup, both casting and activating Zedruu are very color intensive.To the topic at hand, I have a couple questions about the manabase:
1) I assume the choice of Signets over Talismans is primarily due to the need for colored mana.
Primarily, I just never acquired them. I've sometimes compared getting optimal dual lands for this deck to greasing the axles of a K'nex car, we're not running so efficient as to be worth the effort. That being said, if you have them and want to run them over something like Deserted Beach and Stormcarved Coast, that's probably an upgrade.2) I understand the reluctance to put complete cycles of lands in the deck to preserve the chaos, but why no bond lands (Sea of Clouds, et al.)?
Manlands are in here for synergies with Jeskai Ascendancy, Mirrorweave, Vanish into Memory, and Role Reversal, which along with the occasional post-board wipe planeswalker kill is a lot of fringe benefit on top of being two-colored lands. But I haven't done a major update to the thread since the new manlands released, so the selection is going to change. The new ones being cheaper to activate is quite desirable, especially Restless Spire with the minimum 2 mana activation making it easy to activate and untap with Jeskai Ascendancy effectively. @Ryujin76 is correct that the ones with blue mana are probably correct just because of what colors the deck demands to play your cards. The ongoing discussion about a counters-matter subtheme makes Restless Bivouac slightly more attractive, but then Restless Anchorage can also put counters on things while being potential card advantage and having evasion.3) Do the manlands really enable that much? If so, how about Restless Bivouac?
These will be in the next iteration, along with Mines of Moria, as reasonably straight-forward mana base upgrades.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Thanks! I had been reading the thread (and looking for the list), but I must have missed it.Sefir wrote: ↑4 months agoHere it is! It is recently updated:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5575897#paper
