Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
6 months ago
NOOO!!!
After a long time, a wild 3-card infinite appeared in my Zedruu. This is what happens when I goldfish with the deck at 4am!!!

With Wormfang Manta, Sakashima the Impostor and Mirage Mirror in play, pay 2+2 mana in Mirror, targeting Manta and Sakashima (with that exact order), then Mirror becomes a copy of Sakashima and, while the second activation is still on the stack, pay UUCC to bounce the SakaMirror to my hand eot! Then Mirror becomes a Manta and bounces back to my hand eot, thus giving me an extra turn. Next turn I can just replay Mirror and continue the loop for infinite turns!!

I love all these 3 cards and I am extremely sad that one of these has to go.

I am sorry, friend. I am two months late on this realization. I was rereading all the posts that discuss Scheming Fence, as I'm working on squishing it and Mirage Mirror and Pendant of Prosperity into my deck finally, and only just noticed something here.

If you activate Mirage Mirror twice, turning it first into Sakashima and second into Wormfang Manta, you will for a moment have two legendary creatures name Sakashima the Impostor, and one of them would have to be sacrificed. With only those 3 cards, you can have your extra turn bounce, but only by sacrificing the original Sakashima, so I believe you're actually safe to play those cards together. You can make it a 4-card combo by donating the original with Zedruu so that you don't control both at the same time.

I was goldfishing yesterday and found myself trying to do similar nonsense, but I was making the Mirror die on purpose. I had Cavalier of Dawn and a Sakashima the Impostor copy of it, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to make mana off of my many white pips. Then by donating the Nykthos, I can double activate Mirage Mirror, first targeting Sakashima and then targeting Nykthos, so the second activation resolves letting me tap for mana, and then the first resolves making a Cavalier of Dawn named Sakashima that I have to sacrifice to the legend rule which triggers the ability to return an artifact or enchantment to my hand, which can be Mirage Mirror. Even in my goldfishing, I didn't manage this as a loop cause it would take 10 pips of a single color in play to go infinite and I only had 8 white pips, but it's a funny interaction regardless.

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

Ryujin76 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
I wish I could blame it being early where I am, but I'm confidant that it's just me being hazy on all the lines that come from running all these weird cards.

Yaaaaay, weird!

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

So, I have another thing in my mind that I'm going to try in the immediate future. I am circling back to Astral Dragon.

If anyone recalls my original reaction to Astral Dragon, I was upset because it does something I really want (makes anything a creature) but does it in a way that is quite easy to combo with. Two things in particular combo with it: Cursed Mirror is a two card combo, even if someone else played it, but I was already looking at that as a cut and I rarely see anyone else playing it. The other thing is Oblivion Ring style effects (one exiles the Dragon, the other exiles the first one and returns the Dragon to play), of which I have Detention Sphere, which almost manages to be safe because it can't exile another Detention Sphere, but if I have Pandemonium as a third card Detention Sphere creatures can zap themselves to leave play to return the Dragon.

So, if I want to play that, I have to cut Cursed Mirror and either Detention Sphere or Pandemonium. Of those two, Pandemonium is the easier cut, but I'd want to replace it with something safer to trigger off of Sakashima Sphere flickers. The option I like best there is Outpost Siege: it still kills with Sakashima Sphere, it can still damage creatures to draw with Swans of Bryn Argoll, it's got a cute interaction with Leave // Chance, it can do that Dragon/Sphere loop as a proper 4-card combo by cloning the dragon to make 3 Outpost Sieges (with incredibly appropriate art for murdering people with dragons), and it also has the other mode to draw cards as a floor.

Astral Dragon would replace Sphinx of the Second Sun as my big blue bomb (nothing against sphinx, that card is still amazing, just trying a different direction), but it also accomplishes most of what I want from Opalescence and more, so I can actually cut two cards this way to make space for stuff. It's also pushing me towards following suit with the indestructible artifact lands, as making land-creatures for Jeskai Ascendancy is a solid mode for the dragon, but without haste like Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper I want them to have some protection.

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 3 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
The funny thing with Pull from Eternity is that Reenact the Crime can exile Pull to cast a copy of pull targeting Pull to pull it back into the graveyard accomplishing nothing but casting 3 spells. If this weren't singleton, you could Bonus Round, then Reenact Bonus Round, then Reenact Reenact with Bonus Round triggers on the stack, then Pull Reenact, and make a loop where you Reenact Reenact to Reenact Pull to Pull Pull and Pull Reenact to Reenact Reenact some more... I'm not sure I recommend pursuing this, but it's funny to ponder.

I was doing for a long time similar kind of nonesense with Eye, Pull and Mystic Retrieval. It makes it that you can always cast an instant/sorcery at least once/turn, thus activate the Eye at least once/turn (that way you get infinite turns with an extra turn spell with no restrictions unlike Chance for Glory) or, if you have an instant/sorcery that can both give you mana AND gas, you can cast infinite times Pull&Retrieval thus winning the game (After Time Spiral's ban from our lists, the only other option of such a card is Jeska's Will if you are asking btw, a card I have added the last months and I am very impressed with its performance.)

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
I am sorry, friend. I am two months late on this realization. I was rereading all the posts that discuss Scheming Fence, as I'm working on squishing it and Mirage Mirror and Pendant of Prosperity into my deck finally, and only just noticed something here.

If you activate Mirage Mirror twice, turning it first into Sakashima and second into Wormfang Manta, you will for a moment have two legendary creatures name Sakashima the Impostor, and one of them would have to be sacrificed. With only those 3 cards, you can have your extra turn bounce, but only by sacrificing the original Sakashima, so I believe you're actually safe to play those cards together. You can make it a 4-card combo by donating the original with Zedruu so that you don't control both at the same time.

Wow. WOW. How did I miss the legendary trigger?? I can either gift Sakashima with Zedruu or the new Bird, or even turn Sakashima into nonlegendary with Lore Drakkis!! This is great news, Mirror comes back in the deck!! That means I nead space for Coveted Falcon, Mirage Mirror and Pendant of Prosperity (Coveted Falcon demands it!). I will not bring back Scheming Fence yet though, according to even more playtesting, while he is a swiss-knife, he is kinda mediocre as a hate piece (usually my opponents were quick to flicker, protect, sacrifice+reanimate, etc their stuff) and if I targeted my own Pendant, a) Fence needs a turn to do his thing and b) it kinda makes the Pendant immediately a target something I dont want for my gifts. I need 3 cuts that will probably be Tidal Barracuda (the fish did nothing wrong, immunity in my turn is great, but for now Leyline of Anticipation and Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse have better synergy), Cursed Mirror that its only appliance was to my Cavalier of Dawn+Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel combo and another card that I have yet to decide. The list is extremely tight atm. Reenact the Crime seems like a great card but has very specific timing restrictions, needs 4 mana open to get played as a defensive spell and without Eye atm I dont think I will try it for now.

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
3 months ago
That means I nead space for Coveted Falcon, Mirage Mirror and Pendant of Prosperity. I will not bring back Scheming Fence yet though, according to my playtesting, it is kinda mediocre as a hate piece (usually my opponents were quick to flicker, protect, sacrifice+reanimate, etc their stuff) and if I targeted my own Pendant, a) Fence needs a turn to do his thing and b) it kinda makes the Pendant immediately a target something I dont want for my gifts. I need 3 cuts that will probably be Tidal Barracuda (the fish did nothing wrong, immunity in my turn is great, but for now Leyline of Anticipation and Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse have better synergy), Cursed Mirror that its only appliance was to my Cavalier of Dawn+Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel combo and another card that I have yet to decide. The list is extremely tight atm. Reenact the Crime seems like a great card but has very specific timing restrictions, needs 4 mana open to get played as a defensive spell and without Eye atm I dont think I will try it for now.

It's tight, but even with two new toys to fit, I'm getting close to something I think is cohesive. Shifting from Displacer Kitten package to Pendant of Prosperity package, here's what I'm currently looking at:

Decklist

Approximate Total Cost:

There are too many tapped lands now, I'll need to rebalance that, but the artifact lands do seem pretty cool having swapped March of the Machines out for Rise and Shine.

I cut Displacer Kitten to start. Then including Astral Dragon knocks out Cursed Mirror, replaces Sphinx of the Second Sun as an 8-drop blue creature, can replace Opalescence for making enchantments creatures, and makes me swap Pandemonium for Outpost Siege (which I've considered in the past anyway). Then without the Sphinx, and with the desire for more genuine instants, I went back down Vedalken Orrery.

That makes room for 4 more cards, and I'm trying a Pendant of Prosperity package with Mirage Mirror and Scheming Fence (and Role Reversal was already in the deck), and then an old favorite in Sudden Substitution. I'm not actually afraid of Sudden Sub + Chance for Glory, in theory it could Door to Nothingness a player, but in a multiplayer setting in practice, there's likely never a scenario where a player is so threatening to justify that but not threatening enough to kill me in one turn. And conversely, if I wanted to actually end a 4-player game, I could copy Bonus Round, triple Chance into triple Substitution, which looks like a 4-card combo to me and even gives everyone a turn to try to win the game first. 2-3 player games are borderline, but those are also inherently more aggressive situations. And chances are 9 times out of 10 I'm better off just using the extra turn for myself.

So that leaves the following I want to sneak in:
Reenact the Crime
Coveted Falcon
Chaos Warp
I'd still like a boros planeswalker back, either Nahiri, the Harbinger or Quintorius Kand
I think Coveted Jewel is a safe inclusion now, if I want to, or maybe a draw doubler?

And then the lands need some shuffling, and I'm open to swapping Cavalier out for a solid white Mirrorweave target. Revisiting Archangel of Thune is the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm certainly looking for other options to consider.

So I was thinking maybe Vedalken Plotter could be a cut before the bird came into the picture, having Pendant of Prosperity, Role Reversal, and Sudden Substitution to feed Zedruu. But now Coveted Falcon is another point of interaction with Plotter (steal back my land, keep yours), Sudden Substitution really wants me to have expendable creatures early, and Chaos Warp is profitable with it as well. At the same time, if you're telling me Scheming Fence is not the ideal Pendant exploiter, and I'm making room for Coveted Falcon which can also profit that way, perhaps that's already the cut, and I keep 5 cards that can donate for Zedruu 😎. I'll play with Fence for a bit now that I've got it sleeved (I've got time before I'll have new cards) to see how it feels (only goldfished with it so far, and it's been best as a Rootha clone, as that's the activated ability on my side that doesn't suffer from summoning sickness), but that would make that cut easier for me.

I'm looking at Narset's Reversal potentially as a cut for Reenact the crime. I'll still have 3 cards that can mess with the stack in Venser, Substitution, and Stifle, and Reenact otherwise copies my spells in a similar way to Narset's Reversal. The only real loss is stealing the green player's ramp spells in the first few turns, but in theory I can maybe get a non-green player to Pendant with me to keep up instead. If Reenact turns out to be a dud, I go back to Reversal, no harm - no foul.

And honestly, if Pendant turns out to not be the droid I'm looking for either, that would make the rest of the cuts pretty easy on me. So I think that's where I'll start. Play with this as is for a couple weeks, then try with the two new cards in for a bit, and go from there.

Ryujin76 · Post by **Ryujin76** » 3 months ago

Your new list is looking good.

I have only had a handful of games with Pendant of Prosperity, but it did not impress me. I suspect that it may be a playgroup thing, but usually the pendant just came in and did nothing but act as Zedruu fodder. It also did not have the disruption factor that Vedalken Plotter and Role Reversal have.

I am happy that the pendant got a new friend with the new Coveted Falcon, and I will admit that pendant has quite the ceiling. Either way, I do look forward to reports of how it does in your future games. Maybe it'll convince me to give it another try.

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
and I'm open to swapping Cavalier out for a solid white Mirrorweave target. Revisiting Archangel of Thune is the first thing that comes to mind, but I'm certainly looking for other options to consider.

Taking a glace through White, I did not find any spicy mirrorweave targets. Things like Sublime Archangel and Drogskol Reinforcements are technically "good" mirrorweave targets, but its probably not what we want. Enduring Angel // Angelic Enforcer is another one that looked interesting. Swinging with an army of Angelic Enforcers is definitely Magical Christmas Land, and turning a transform card into a copy of enduring angel can let you survive the arcbond combo provided you give it indestructible.

Realistically, Archangel of Thune just seems like the best option if we are looking at mono white though.

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

Ryujin76 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
Realistically, Archangel of Thune just seems like the best option if we are looking at mono white though.

One of my incentives for Archangel of Thune is that it gives another option for Arcbond combo without having indestructible creatures. Either double Angel double Arcbond with less than 4 damage, or Angel+double Arcbond+a source of exactly 1 damage to a creature, and Outpost Siege is pretty good at pinging for exactly 1.

The disincentive is that it is a card with no meaningful impact without synergies. A card that isn't threatening in a vacuum, isn't interacting with opponents, and isn't generating resources is effectively a dead card a lot of the time, and you only get so many of those before games get consistently clunky. Archangel of Thune might qualify as inherent threat in an aggressive creature-based deck, but here it falls in the same category as Mirror of Fate and Barren Glory.

So swapping it in for Cavalier of Dawn is going from removal and recursion on a single card to neither, and I need to make sure my other changes compensate for the loss. Wanting Chaos Warp back is partly from that hypothetical loss of removal.

If I go with Archangel, that probably does mean I try to get Quintorius Kand in, as the elephant makes bodies for +1/+1 counters, the triggered ability gains life to trigger angel, the discover generates value, and the ultimate is graveyard recursion.

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 3 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
...Archangel of Thune...
So swapping it in for Cavalier of Dawn is going from removal and recursion on a single card to neither, and I need to make sure my other changes compensate for the loss. Wanting Chaos Warp back is partly from that hypothetical loss of removal.

I am in the complete opposite spectrum. Since I am still riding the Kitten train on steroids, Cavalier will always have a place in my list. I am even in search for more Cavalier combos, since he is left with literally 2 combos in my list (Cavalier+Jeskai Ascendancy+LED+Fable of the Mirror-Breaker // Reflection of Kiki-Jiki and Cavalier+LED+Displacer Kitten+Saheeli Rai). Perhaps my current list is the best to try again a card I hated with a passion in the past for being overcosted and extremely narrow: Infinite Reflection. Now I have multiple options to Stifle the etb, flicker any creatures of mine after donating the Reflection with Displacer Kitten or Parallax Wave, hell, I can even use Wave to flicker the creature Reflection ecnhants if I am in a hard spot! Wormfang Manta is an excellent target for both targeting it for my creatures in play or to turn my opponents creatures that will enter play. Thus, I am just one Walking Ballista away from a Cavalier+Ballista+Reflection+Chance for Glory/Terror of the Peaks/whatever combo. Apart form all my previous issues with the card though, my biggest concern is that Infinite Reflection seems like an extremely "feels-bad" card to play. Probably some more playtesting is needed for that.

Big, white creatures with interesting abilities include Phyrexian Vindicator, Angel of Serenity for removal and, since recursion was something asked, Sun Titan. Also, while technically double colored, Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse is a white creature with recursion too that can replace another flash enabler.
Obviously, if we go VERY deep into the well, Luminous Broodmoth is a kinda recursive option too and has a fun interaction with Archetype of Imagination and Zedruu (yes, it kills with a Goblin Bombardment).

In other news, Coveted Falcon is that good in my goldfishing that I am seriously considering to put a Homeward Path in the deck. Not Brand though, I am not that mad yet.

But things like gifting all my creatures to get the full draw and then taking them back with Path is a fine play. Targeting them with my Parallax Wave is also always an option.

Post by **tstorm823** » 3 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
3 months ago
I am in the complete opposite spectrum. Since I am still riding the Kitten train on steroids, Cavalier will always have a place in my list. I am even in search for more Cavalier combos, since he is left with literally 2 combos in my list (Cavalier+Jeskai Ascendancy+LED+Fable of the Mirror-Breaker // Reflection of Kiki-Jiki and Cavalier+LED+Displacer Kitten+Saheeli Rai). Perhaps my current list is the best to try again a card I hated with a passion in the past for being overcosted and extremely narrow: Infinite Reflection. Now I have multiple options to Stifle the etb, flicker any creatures of mine after donating the Reflection with Displacer Kitten or Parallax Wave, hell, I can even use Wave to flicker the creature Reflection ecnhants if I am in a hard spot! Wormfang Manta is an excellent target for both targeting it for my creatures in play or to turn my opponents creatures that will enter play. Thus, I am just one Walking Ballista away from a Cavalier+Ballista+Reflection+Chance for Glory/Terror of the Peaks/whatever combo. Apart form all my previous issues with the card though, my biggest concern is that Infinite Reflection seems like an extremely "feels-bad" card to play. Probably some more playtesting is needed for that.

Big, white creatures with interesting abilities include Phyrexian Vindicator, Angel of Serenity for removal and, since recursion was something asked, Sun Titan. Also, while technically double colored, Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse is a white creature with recursion too that can replace another flash enabler.
Obviously, if we go VERY deep into the well, Luminous Broodmoth is a kinda recursive option too and has a fun interaction with Archetype of Imagination and Zedruu (yes, it kills with a Goblin Bombardment).

In other news, Coveted Falcon is that good in my goldfishing that I am seriously considering to put a Homeward Path in the deck. Not Brand though, I am not that mad yet. But things like gifting all my creatures to get the full draw and then taking them back with Path is a fine play. Targeting them with my Parallax Wave is also always an option.

My experience with Infinite Reflection in live games is quite different than goldfishing or theorizing it. Other people gave me lots of opportunities to turn my board into like 8 Blightsteel Colossus or something equally terrifying. It's just a windmill slam sometimes. It might "feel bad" hitting someone with Wormfang Manta Reflection, but if you can make Wormfang Manta into an oppressive powerhouse, I think that is an earned success. I kinda love Infinite Reflection.

I'm thinking so hard about Mirrorweave targets partially because that's the justification for have a big thing in every color, and partially because that's the biggest thing I lose by switching away from March of the Machines and Opalescence. If I continue down this path, I cannot turn other people's things into my things the same way I used to. So of those sweet white options you mention, it's really just Phyrexian Vindicator that could potentially be suitable.

Coveted Falcon looks, to me, like an obvious powerhouse. I know it screams Zedruu in the general sense from what it does, but if it had no synergy with Zedruu, it would still be an insane card. Playing and flipping it is really similar in effect to casting Firestorm with Swans of Bryn Argoll in play, or casting both sides of Leave // Chance in one turn. "I will give up X cards I don't need to draw X cards" is the kind of thing we do here and then the game explodes and we win in a blaze of glory. I suppose it's worth consideration that the bird is a Mirrorweave target itself. The attack trigger (and the 1/4 stat line, to an extent, as blocking to kill won't be easy) makes it a lot like casting Brand afterwards. But then it does work with Zedruu and also every other card that works well with Zedruu, which is a lot of icing on the cake.

Zyren · Post by **Zyren** » 3 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
So, I have another thing in my mind that I'm going to try in the immediate future. I am circling back to Astral Dragon.

If anyone recalls my original reaction to Astral Dragon, I was upset because it does something I really want (makes anything a creature) but does it in a way that is quite easy to combo with. Two things in particular combo with it: Cursed Mirror is a two card combo, even if someone else played it, but I was already looking at that as a cut and I rarely see anyone else playing it. The other thing is Oblivion Ring style effects (one exiles the Dragon, the other exiles the first one and returns the Dragon to play), of which I have Detention Sphere, which almost manages to be safe because it can't exile another Detention Sphere, but if I have Pandemonium as a third card Detention Sphere creatures can zap themselves to leave play to return the Dragon.

So, if I want to play that, I have to cut Cursed Mirror and either Detention Sphere or Pandemonium. Of those two, Pandemonium is the easier cut, but I'd want to replace it with something safer to trigger off of Sakashima Sphere flickers. The option I like best there is Outpost Siege: it still kills with Sakashima Sphere, it can still damage creatures to draw with Swans of Bryn Argoll, it's got a cute interaction with Leave // Chance, it can do that Dragon/Sphere loop as a proper 4-card combo by cloning the dragon to make 3 Outpost Sieges (with incredibly appropriate art for murdering people with dragons), and it also has the other mode to draw cards as a floor.

Astral Dragon would replace Sphinx of the Second Sun as my big blue bomb (nothing against sphinx, that card is still amazing, just trying a different direction), but it also accomplishes most of what I want from Opalescence and more, so I can actually cut two cards this way to make space for stuff. It's also pushing me towards following suit with the indestructible artifact lands, as making land-creatures for Jeskai Ascendancy is a solid mode for the dragon, but without haste like Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper I want them to have some protection.

I've held off playing parallax wave too because of opalescence, but you bring up good points that astral dragon could replace opalescence. Parallax wave is also nice because it's counter focused. There's also an infinite mana combo with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and Dockside Extortionist (I run both) if opponents have 5+ artifacts / enchantments and theres enough creatures for parallax wave to use its counters with. With All Will Be One, that's a 4 card combo win. It's also a way for me to get Starke of Rath and Gilded Drake back to destroy / steal another permanent, and obvious shenanigans with astral dragon and other ETB creatures.

astral dragon also kind of replaces Replication Technique. It doesnt work with the Lore Drakkis combo, but there still a couple other combos with lore drakkis (and I'd get a combo from parallax wave).

Coveted Falcon is also another way to get starke of rath back.

if i were to do any changes, it would be:

- opalescence
- replication technique

+ astral dragon
+ parallax wave

but that would put me down an instant / sorcery. I was thinking of cutting Lore Drakkis for Reenact the Crime, but I'd lose a couple combos. I also have no idea what to cut for the falcon. I need to brainstorm this more...

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 3 months ago

Zyren wrote: ↑
3 months ago

if i were to do any changes, it would be:

- opalescence
- replication technique

+ astral dragon
+ parallax wave

Do you want infinite Parallax Wave creatures? Because with just Astral Dragon alone, this is how you get infinite Parallax Wave creatures!
I do not run Opalescence, but I do run Wave and this is the No1 reason why I don run Astral Dragon or any other thing that can turn Wave into a creature with just 1 card....

In other news, this is how my list looks for now.

Decklist

Lands (30)

2 Island

1 Magosi, the Waterveil

1 Mana Confluence

1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

1 Mines of Moria

2 Mountain

1 Mystic Gate

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

2 Plains

1 Steam Vents

1 The Mycosynth Gardens

1 Thespian's Stage

1 Training Center

Planeswalker (2)

1 Saheeli Rai

1 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer

Artifact (19)

1 Everflowing Chalice

1 Sol Ring

1 Bucknard's Everfull Purse

1 Talisman of Conviction

1 Talisman of Creativity

1 Talisman of Progress

1 Pendant of Prosperity

1 Coveted Jewel

Creatures (18)

1 Rootha, Mercurial Artist

1 Tishana's Tidebinder

1 Walking Archive

1 Displacer Kitten

1 Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch

1 Golden Guardian

1 Heliod, the Radiant Dawn

1 Sakashima the Impostor

1 Swans of Bryn Argoll

1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Terror of the Peaks

1 Wormfang Manta

1 Sphinx of the Second Sun

Enchantments (10)

1 Land Tax

1 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker

1 Jeskai Ascendancy

1 Paradox Haze

1 Leyline of Anticipation

1 Parallax Wave

1 Smothering Tithe

1 Barren Glory

1 Infinite Reflection

1 Mind Over Matter

Instants (11)

1 Stifle

1 Teferi's Protection

1 Mirrorweave

1 Turnabout

1 Leave/Chance

Sorcery (9)

1 Rise and Shine

1 Shatterskull Smashing

1 Bonus Round

1 Jeska's Will

1 Replication Technique

1 Echo of Eons

1 Mind's Desire

1 Sea Gate Restoration

1 Temporal Cascade

Approximate Total Cost:

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
3 months ago
In other news, this is how my list looks for now.

Would you say that you like 2-mv mana rocks?

It's a weird experience looking at someone else's list for inspiration, as my brain seems only capable of seeing the different things you've included and not the things you've cut, and that's really where I need inspiration.

Another question, which has performed better for you: Plaza of Heroes or The Mycosynth Gardens?

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 2 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
Would you say that you like 2-mv mana rocks?

They are all the Dan Frazier versions, so yes, you can say that lol. But I also find that t2 rock into t3 Zedruu into t4 gift+mana for either donating (if it is not self-gifted) or protection is a very usual play in my list. I play a bit fewer lands than you do, but I usually have no problem finding lands in my opening hands and leads to better draws in the mid-late game (for things like Displacer Kitten, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Jeskai Ascendancy, etc). I have goldfished and played so much with this deck that I am quite experienced with my mulligans. But I also play far less lands that enter tapped. Also, I have a single card that searches in the deck. It is Land Tax and it is doing heavy work if it is in the opening hand.

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
It's a weird experience looking at someone else's list for inspiration, as my brain seems only capable of seeing the different things you've included and not the things you've cut, and that's really where I need inspiration.

Nahiri's Wrath is a card that I recently cut. I have at least 2 cards that can discard stuff for Barren Glory (Temporal Cascade and Lion's Eye Diamond) and Parallax Wave continues to be an all star as removal as well, other than protecting/flickering my own stuff. I lost a major dmg spell for Swans of Bryn Argoll, but I still have Electrodominance, Shatterskull Smashing and Terror of the Peaks. Mind you, its been a long time since I have strayed away from Arcbond and its Golems package. Also, Since I am playing A LOT through Spelltable, my list is tailored with much fewer stealing stuff (just Gilded Drake) and almost no chaos chards (no Possibility Storm, Knowledge Pool or even my beloved Eye of the Storm that is usually my 101 card). I also run fewer Howling Mine effects. I usually find that 1-2 donations are enough for making the deck run and I am now extremly selective with my Mine effects (only the beforementioned Mine and Walking Archive remain. Kami also comes in and out all the time). That results in a more controlly/comboy Zedruu than your list's playstyle. Recently I have even taken out Mirror of Fate since I am trying to be stricter to the "4-card combos" theory and a Mirror, a copy of the Mirror and a spell that draws cards is essentially a 3-card combo even though it needs a bunch of resources and setup. The nice thing is that I do not miss any of them, since I am doing equally silly and fun stuff with things like Wormfang Manta. Btw, since I talked about chaos, there is a card that I have tried in other decks and I want to try here as well, is a RW planeswalker, but not the one you think! Not the elephant! It is Comet, Stellar Pup. Now this, this is the chaos no one has a problem with online. Obviously the randomness makes for the good boy impossible to have any combos, but all modes seem actually good and useful. Blockers, minor recursion or removal. Can have some extra synergies like hitting the Swans for dmg, can be flickered with Kitten, etc.

Since I run a small number of removals like the ones I mentioned and a few more, like Cavalier, and also my deck is more like "If you cant stop my plan I am going to win and I am faster than you" than "I need to stop you from doing your thing", I also cut Chaos Warp but I am still on the fence about that one. It was either that, or a "sacred cow" aka Jeskai Ascendancy. It's been too long since I pulled an Ascendancy combo (since the Banishing Knack days tbp) and, while I do run tons of rocks and Rise and Shine, that interaction happens once in a year in my deck (or more specifically: when it happens, I have other ways to win the game already). The looting part is more important than the untap in my list, as a payoff for infinite whatever, but even that is not something unique, the deck has many payoffs already.

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
Another question, which has performed better for you: Plaza of Heroes or The Mycosynth Gardens?

Plaza by far. As you can see from my list, protecting my Zedruu is of high priority for me and even the sight of me having a Plazza in play with 3 mana open, usually prevent my opponents from targeting it. It is also a land that gives all colors 90% of the time and enters untapped.

Gardens on the other hand, while it is good in theory with things like Liquimetal Torque that I run, in practice I have yet to use it to copy literally anything and I do play with the deck a lot. To have both Torque and Gardens and a permanent that I will value that much to copy to essentially lose a land for it (lets say a Smothering Tithe) and having the time and open mana to do so, is something extremely, extremely rare. I am seriously thinking of taking it out and put something like a Restless Spire in.

Ryujin76 · Post by **Ryujin76** » 2 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
3 months ago
In other news, this is how my list looks for now.

It's always a pleasure to peruse through other peoples lists. Land Tax and Bucknard's Everfull Purse in particular interest me. I wonder if I can get away with cutting a land for land tax, but maybe thats being too greedy.

Sefir wrote: ↑
2 months ago
Btw, since I talked about chaos, there is a card that I have tried in other decks and I want to try here as well, is a RW planeswalker, but not the one you think! Not the elephant! It is Comet, Stellar Pup.

Comet is certainly a fun and good card. The rulings on that card always stuck with me as something neat. You don't know what Comet is going to do with it's loyalty ability until it starts to resolve, at which point nobody can respond with any actions until it fully resolves. Also notice how Comet's damage ability doesn't target, so it bypasses hexproof and friends.

Sefir wrote: ↑
2 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
Another question, which has performed better for you: Plaza of Heroes or The Mycosynth Gardens?
Plaza by far. As you can see from my list, protecting my Zedruu is of high priority for me and even the sight of me having a Plazza in play with 3 mana open, usually prevent my opponents from targeting it. It is also a land that gives all colors 90% of the time and enters untapped.

Gardens on the other hand, while it is good in theory with things like Liquimetal Torque that I run, in practice I have yet to use it to copy literally anything and I do play with the deck a lot. To have both Torque and Gardens and a permanent that I will value that much to copy to essentially lose a land for it (lets say a Smothering Tithe) and having the time and open mana to do so, is something extremely, extremely rare. I am seriously thinking of taking it out and put something like a Restless Spire in.

I fully agree with your sentiments here.

In my list, I only run The Mycosynth Gardens because of Mirror of Fate, and I classify it as a colourless land source as that is what it does most of the time. If I were to cut the mirror, I would probably cut the gardens as well for more coloured sources.

Plaza of Heroes has reliably felt like an untapped tri-land a lot more than I was expecting when I first added it in. The threat of protection it provides is also good, but it can also be a combo piece if we need one indestructible creature. (Martyrdom and Arcbond)

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 2 months ago

Ryujin76 wrote: ↑
2 months ago

It's always a pleasure to peruse through other peoples lists. Land Tax and Bucknard's Everfull Purse in particular interest me. I wonder if I can get away with cutting a land for land tax, but maybe thats being too greedy.

Notice that I only run 6 basics. The trick with Land Tax is to not get greedy and use it to get all 3 basics in hand immediately because that will likely result in you discarding due to maximum hand size. You need to be patient and just bring 1-2 basics each time to guarantee your land drops and never discard. Even with a relatively small number of basics, if you get 4-5 extra cards (lands) in total from it within the game, then you get your value. Land Tax is almost never targeted by removal if used that way.

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
2 months ago
Jeskai Ascendancy. It's been too long since I pulled an Ascendancy combo (since the Banishing Knack days tbp) and, while I do run tons of rocks and Rise and Shine, that interaction happens once in a year in my deck (or more specifically: when it happens, I have other ways to win the game already). The looting part is more important than the untap in my list, as a payoff for infinite whatever, but even that is not something unique, the deck has many payoffs already.

For what it's worth, Relic of Legends has been the best Jeskai Ascendancy enabler I've ever used. I know I have a pretty solid number of legends to make it functional, but it feels so smooth when those two cards come together in a way that my other attempts have fell short. Anything with mana dorks lets summoning sickness get in the way, anything with man-lands requires spending mana in to set it up and being pinched to actually start the engine, and having a field of mana rocks sufficient for March of the Machines to work usually meant I had burned through my hand quickly. It's easy to casually have multiple legends in play that I wanted to play anyway (and probably drew me cards), then cast Relic effectively for free, and then the way it taps rather than granting the ability means it bypasses summoning sickness.

I've got almost double the legendary creatures you do (and one is Cadric, Soul Kindler), so I don't think you'd have the same results just slamming it in there, but if somewhere down the line you wanted to go wild with Jeskai Ascendancy, Relic of Legends is an exceptional counterpart.

Plaza by far. As you can see from my list, protecting my Zedruu is of high priority for me and even the sight of me having a Plazza in play with 3 mana open, usually prevent my opponents from targeting it. It is also a land that gives all colors 90% of the time and enters untapped.

Gardens on the other hand, while it is good in theory with things like Liquimetal Torque that I run, in practice I have yet to use it to copy literally anything and I do play with the deck a lot. To have both Torque and Gardens and a permanent that I will value that much to copy to essentially lose a land for it (lets say a Smothering Tithe) and having the time and open mana to do so, is something extremely, extremely rare. I am seriously thinking of taking it out and put something like a Restless Spire in.

That is the answer I was looking for. I've had similar results with The Mycosynth Gardens. I've activated it a few times, but it's rare, and most of those uses have been on extra turns in situations where I have a lot of mana and can play and activate it all at once. And I think I've spent the extra mana to color-fix even less often than that. The benefits have not been worth the inability to contribute to casting Zedruu early on. I need to cut down on colorless lands, and I think Reliquary Tower has actually been more impactful for me.

Plaza of Heroes is on my short list of untapped color fixing lands to try, which I'm going to need some good, consistent lands at that, as I'm up to 8 always tapped lands that are included for specific synergies, so if I want to keep myself down to 1/3rd or fewer tapped lands, I have to cut either tri-lands or temples.

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

Ryujin76 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
I wonder if I can get away with cutting a land for land tax, but maybe thats being too greedy.

Land Tax is so good, that may genuinely be a responsible decision.

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 2 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
For what it's worth, Relic of Legends has been the best Jeskai Ascendancy enabler I've ever used. I know I have a pretty solid number of legends to make it functional, but it feels so smooth when those two cards come together in a way that my other attempts have fell short. Anything with mana dorks lets summoning sickness get in the way, anything with man-lands requires spending mana in to set it up and being pinched to actually start the engine, and having a field of mana rocks sufficient for March of the Machines to work usually meant I had burned through my hand quickly. It's easy to casually have multiple legends in play that I wanted to play anyway (and probably drew me cards), then cast Relic effectively for free, and then the way it taps rather than granting the ability means it bypasses summoning sickness.

I've got almost double the legendary creatures you do (and one is Cadric, Soul Kindler), so I don't think you'd have the same results just slamming it in there, but if somewhere down the line you wanted to go wild with Jeskai Ascendancy, Relic of Legends is an exceptional counterpart.

Hmmm.... It is easy for me to take out Sol Ring (a Kaladesh Expedition one, but still a Sol Ring....) and add Relic. Kami and Cadric (with this exact order) are also easy fits if I find out 2 cards I want to take out. I might actually try that. Thx.

Ryujin76 · Post by **Ryujin76** » 2 months ago

On the topic of lands, how has Magosi, the Waterveil been performing for y'all? Does the edge case of extra turn shenanigans justify playing a tapped island?

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 2 months ago

Ryujin76 wrote: ↑
2 months ago
On the topic of lands, how has Magosi, the Waterveil been performing for y'all? Does the edge case of extra turn shenanigans justify playing a tapped island?

I have played Magosi many times and, while I do run some 4-card infinites with it in (Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch+Chance for Glory+Magosi+ either Mirage Mirror or Thespian's Stage) I have never performed them. It does give me though the option to always have my Chance available if I want to save my creatures with permanent indestructability and skip that next turn, something I have done a number of times, so for this alone I am willing to let it in. Still, it is a tapped island 9 times out of 10.

Unrelated, but a card that flew under the radar here and I am probably willing to give it a shot if I find space for it is Machine God's Effigy. Not sure if it has any more combos other than replacing Cursed Mirror (Cavalier of Dawn+Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel/Gilded Lotus), but so far it is a card that makes my wheels go brrrr.

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

I've banked perfectly fair Magosi counters a couple times, but it is definitely there to launder the Chance for Glory turn.

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

Dragonlover wrote: ↑
3 months ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑
3 months ago
If I remember my morph rules correctly, people shouldn't be able to kill it in response either.
Correct. Or at least, to get specific, the first time they can respond is when the donate ability is on the stack, so it doesn't matter if they kill it then because it's happening anyway.

Dragonlover

Side note related to this, going one step further: I don't know if there will ever be serious value in doing so, but morph being a special action (neither a spell nor an activated ability) means it can be done while split second is up, so in theory you can flip the bird in response to your own Angel's Grace without passing priority, and then the bird's trigger effectively has split second as well.

ihatemaryfisher · Post by **ihatemaryfisher** » 2 months ago

Zyren wrote: ↑
3 months ago
There's also an infinite mana combo with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and Dockside Extortionist (I run both) if opponents have 5+ artifacts / enchantments and theres enough creatures for parallax wave to use its counters with. With All Will Be One, that's a 4 card combo win.

Could you explain the combo here? I think you're sending Parallax Wave to the graveyard to retrieve with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse, but removing all of Parallax Wave's counters doesn't kill it immediately. It is only sacrificed at your next upkeep.

I've also found a new 5-card combo for Parallax Wave using only elements already in my deck:
March of the Machines
Parallax Wave
Liquimetal Torque
Cursed Mirror
Any "enters the battlefield" wincon (e.g., Inferno Titan) or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1. Have everything on-board. Cast Cursed Mirror copying Liquimetal Torque.
2. Turn Parallax Wave into an artifact.
3. Activate Parallax Wave, exiling Cursed Mirror, 0-3 other targets, and then itself.
4. All cards return to the battlefield. Cursed Mirror copies Liquimetal Torque and the loop can repeat.
5. A fifth card will win the game. Otherwise, it's a 4-card "exile any number of artifacts/creatures" combo

Sefir · Post by **Sefir** » 2 months ago

With the danger of leaning a bit too much into the flicker strategy and during my seatch for synergistc Azorius legendary creatures (I consider Heliod a white creature) both to complete the colors pairs set (Cadric for Boros, Rootha for Izzet) and to increase the usage of Relic of Legends, I want to try Yorion, Sky Nomad. In theory it has good synergy in my list, a good number of 4-card combos, especially with cards like Wormfang Manta. It is a good blocker, it can kill Golden Guardian, it can save my board from mass removal if I have a flash enabler on board.
I also happen to own a gorgeous altered art one, so there's that as well.......

Post by **tstorm823** » 2 months ago

Sefir wrote: ↑
2 months ago
I also happen to own a gorgeous altered art one, so there's that as well.......

Can't argue with that reasoning.

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