Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Sefir]

I believe cards with adventure only have the characteristics of the adventure when on the stack. In exile, Virtue of Knowledge is not an instant card, and does not get copied with Eye of the Storm.

You are correct, I was wrong.

For the better. It would have gone infinite with just Eye of the Storm and Mind's Desire otherwise.
A very interesting card nevertheless though.

[Sefir]

Not sure if it is a card worth mentioning, but The Apprentice's Folly can create nonlegendary copies of 2 creatures for 4 mana. And it can be donated afterwards to keep those copies.

[Sefir]

Also, I've been wanting to try Scheming Fence as a low-cost mirror of fate combo piece/interaction. Maybe this is a good place to try it out.

Oh, that is clever. I'll be thinking about that one for a bit, cause that's hits all the right notes: possible interaction, possible mana dork, possible combo piece. There's gotta be something cooking there.

Edit: Just thought of Pendant of Prosperity as a pretty slick synergy with Scheming Fence, for anyone who might be playing that card.

These are some older posts, but I feel the urge to reply. I have started using both Scheming Fence and Pendant of Prosperity and I am extremely satisfied from the synergies. Not only Fence is an very useful creature on its own and Pendant is a great gift, but also Fence+Pendant+MOM+whatever can give at least 2 mana is another fun 4-card combo. Any way to clone the Pendant can be used as a substitute for Fence as well (Mirage Mirror is my current favorite because, among others, I can clone the Pendant even outside of that MOM interaction).

Ruling questions from some of my most recent games:

1) In one game, I had Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun on the battlefield and I played Scheming Fence naming Azor's Gateway. I was able to use Scheming Gateway's ability 5 times, but what should have happened then? Does it transform though it is not a copy of the card (according to the new copying rulings, copying a transforming permanent copies the backside too)? Or the fact that it does not copy the card but just the ability means it cannot transform, thus it just untaps and gains me life, thus having another 4-card infinite in Scheming Fence+Azor's Gateway+MOM+something that doubles the card draw a la Alhammarret's Archive?

2) In similar manner, but outside of these specific cards, I also had a case where I put a Splinter Twin on a Golden Guardian. If my token copy of the Guardian fights something and dies, does it get transformed into a land according to the new rules? Or it gets exiled when it hits the gy since it is a token? I think it is the latter, but I want to be sure.

[tstorm823]

These are some older posts, but I feel the urge to reply. I have started using both Scheming Fence and Pendant of Prosperity and I am extremely satisfied from the synergies. Not only Fence is an very useful creature on its own and Pendant is a great gift, but also Fence+Pendant+MOM+whatever can give at least 2 mana is another fun 4-card combo. Any way to clone the Pendant can be used as a substitute for Fence as well (Mirage Mirror is my current favorite because, among others, I can clone the Pendant even outside of that MOM interaction).

I may have to try these things. You aren't playing March of the Machines, correct? March opens up the option of Mirrorweave on Pendant as well.

1) In one game, I had Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun on the battlefield and I played Scheming Fence naming Azor's Gateway. I was able to use Scheming Gateway's ability 5 times, but what should have happened then? Does it transform though it is not a copy of the card (according to the new copying rulings, copying a transforming permanent copies the backside too)? Or the fact that it does not copy the card but just the ability means it cannot transform, thus it just untaps and gains me life, thus having another 4-card infinite in Scheming Fence+Azor's Gateway+MOM+something that doubles the card draw a la Alhammarret's Archive?

To my knowledge, the rule change is moot. I believe it just added tokens to the list of things that transform, not any permanent. (I looked it up quick: 701.28a To transform a permanent, turn it over so that its other face is up. Only transforming tokens and permanents represented by transforming double-faced cards can transform.) So it wouldn't transform because it's a card with only one face. Otherwise, the transform part of Gateway is embedded in the activated ability, so if you somehow had that ability transfer to a card with a second face or a token, it would flip with the ability even if it wasn't a full copy of Azor's Gateway.

2) In similar manner, but outside of these specific cards, I also had a case where I put a Splinter Twin on a Golden Guardian. If my token copy of the Guardian fights something and dies, does it get transformed into a land according to the new rules? Or it gets exiled when it hits the gy since it is a token? I think it is the latter, but I want to be sure.

It is the latter. If a token would go anywhere other than the battlefield, it disappears as a state-based effect. It's not even exiled, as that's a valid non-battlefield game zone, the rule for tokens leaving the battlefield says "A token that's in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist", which I think is a fun phrase to have in the rules, until somewhere down the line they inevitably print an un-card that returns tokens from the "ceased-to-exist" zone, and then we'll need an even more chilling way to say "seriously, it's gone forever this time". Maybe we'll just go full circle and have to say "removed from the game" again.

[Sefir]

You aren't playing March of the Machines, correct? March opens up the option of Mirrorweave on Pendant as well.

Too many treasure prodcuers and 0 CMC artifacts in my list. I prefer Rise and Shine these days. I have many treasure beatdown wins in my resume.

As for Scheming Fence, I cannot speak enough for his flexibility. From using it as a mana dork to locking my local Mairsil, the Pretender player out of the game, there was not a single time where the card was not in some way useful.

[tstorm823]

As for Scheming Fence, I cannot speak enough for his flexibility. From using it as a mana dork to locking my local Mairsil, the Pretender player out of the game, there was not a single time where the card was not in some way useful.

Yeah, shoutout to @ihatemaryfisher for the initial suggestion. I've been pondering Scheming Fence here and there, and only haven't tried it myself for lack of owning a copy. But that can be fixed. That and Virtue of Knowledge // Vantress Visions are certainly on the short list for whatever iteration comes next.

[Sefir]

Apart from the obvious Everybody Lives! that can work both as an Angel's Grace, board protection and combo piece when we need indestructibility, has anyone else found cards that can be used in Zedruu from Dr. Who? Perhaps The Ninth Doctor, but he is such a bad attacker......

[kowobold]

Adric, Mathematical Genius could offer another Strionic Resonator style effect, like how Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice was being floated around a while ago. An activated ability Stifle is nothing to sniff at either.

Osgood, Operation Double is interesting too. It's a on cast trigger so if you're still fooling around with Possibility Storm effects you get a bit of synergy there, plus netting clue tokens every time you cast stuff from one of those sources is quite fun.

The War Doctor will get a counter for each card if they're exiled one at a time, a la Cascade or Possibility Storm. This won't work with the imprint of Knowledge Pool, but can tick up quickly with the triggered ability.

The Second Doctor seems like a fun stapling of incidental pacifism and no max hand size. I think it's really dealers choice as to Temple Bell and Howling Mine effects at this point though, there's so many of them in existence that it's really down to taste and any incidental synergies you might have.

I'm sure I've missed stuff, I'm just a lurking lizard who loves this primer and has a janky tweaked version of Zedruu herself with my own selection of pet cards

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Dr. Who is a really cool set. There are lots of interesting cards with weird synergies to be exploited. I think it's a positive thing that there aren't so many instant stand-outs; a lot of these open doors for new sub-themes and synergies. Suspend? Extra upkeeps? Exile?

Here are some cool ones IMO:

River Song - Strange synergies with scrying and some niche cards that put stuff on the bottom of someone's library. Proteus Staff?

Psychic Paper - An interesting second copy of Spy Kit for weird combos.

Trial of a Time Lord - I really like the design of this card, though it's not particularly weird/combo-rific

Decaying Time Loop - A nice instant speed hand replacement with Retrace.

I also mess around a lot with Changeling decks and there are a ton of cards that refer to a "Doctor" you control, and all work great with changelings except for the "companion" mechanic.

Not Dr. Who, but the new LOTR set has Hithlain Rope as a new donate object. Edit: someone else mentioned this!

[tstorm823]

Of the cards mentioned, Decaying Time Loop is actually most compelling to me. With enough mana, it becomes a way to empty hand for Barren Glory, and in Eye of the Storm its close to building your own Mindmoil, and then of course the straight-forward usage of flipping over to a new hand of cards.

There are a couple other decks I could play that in though.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I quite like Sonic Screwdriver. It's going to replace Venser, the Sojourner as the unlockable piece in the Coveted Jewel + March of the Machines + Mirrorweave combo, as I really don't use Venser, the Sojourner otherwise.

I'm also struggling to keep Unbender Tine in the deck after cutting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Maybe Sonic Screwdriver's untap ability will be good enough to replace it.

Everybody Lives! is interesting, but is no Angel's Grace. It can't do the double-Arcbond + indestructible combo or turn an "everybody draws out" combo into a win. And losing split-second is not small.

Unrelated, but my mana curved has changed significantly. I've decluttered the 4-mana slot and am playing a lot in the 2-3 mana curve. I've actually added Jeweled Amulet as another mana rock and 0-mana artifact.

[Zyren]

Has anyone thought about adding All Will Be One and Vexing Puzzlebox? My group absolutely hates knowledge pool and was thinking of replacing it with all will be one. There's a lot of 4-5 card combos with it already in the deck. Crystalline Crawler , walking archive, and Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper already work pretty well with it for generating counters. Vexing puzzlebox can also late-game fetch a combo piece we're missing if its an artifact.

[tstorm823]

Has anyone thought about adding All Will Be One and Vexing Puzzlebox? My group absolutely hates knowledge pool and was thinking of replacing it with all will be one. There's a lot of 4-5 card combos with it already in the deck. Crystalline Crawler , walking archive, and Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper already work pretty well with it for generating counters. Vexing puzzlebox can also late-game fetch a combo piece we're missing if its an artifact.

That sounds like a reasonable strategy to pursue, but I wouldn't consider Knowledge Pool and All Will Be One as the same category of card. All Will Be One is a lot more like Pandemonium, not only because of the targeted damage aspect, but also because on its own it does absolutely nothing. Synergy pieces are great, especially ones that kill opponents, but you only get so many of those before things get clunky, even when drawing like 4 cards a turn. A hand that's something like Eye of the Storm, Barren Glory, and Pandemonium and a few lands just doesn't do anything at all, and All Will Be One fits right in that category. Knowledge Pool isn't like that, it's not an empty topdeck, it can give you immediate access to 6-12 more cards as options (as well as messing with other people's plans), replacing it with a pure synergy piece that offers nothing on its own is asking for clunkier play.

If anything, I'd look at Vexing Puzzlebox as replacing Knowledge Pool, and then find your least favorite big do-nothing synergy piece as the second card to cut for All Will Be One.

[slask]

@tstorm823 Hey tstorm, i was trying to make my first zedruu deck and after reading your list i remembered how new I am to MTG and that I think in very simple terms, like wow Nine Lives and Illusions of Grandeur are cool ways to win with a zedruu deck. But your deck looks totally awesome and it seems so fun to learn the combos hidden in this deck. I really want to buy this deck and try it out but I have 5 cards I need to cut because they are to expensive, I was wondering if you could help me out if you have the time.

The cards I need to cut are
Chrome Mox
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Mind Over Matter Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn.

I would really appreciate if you could help me out If there is one card I really should keep just let me know and I could try to switch out some of the lands to make room for it in my budget.

Love your introduction to the deck and all the effort you have put in to explain everything! All the best to you!

[tstorm823]

The cards I need to cut are
Chrome Mox
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Mind Over Matter Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn.

I usually have to really think with these questions, but this one is pretty straight forward. 4 of those are either lands or basically lands. The ceiling of the decks power might take a hit, but the floor wouldn't really be hurt much if you played 4 basics or three and a cheap mana rock in place of everything there but Mind Over Matter. The only combo broken by that would be not having Chrome Mox for Displacer Kitten, but all the other cards involved in that have plenty else going on. Certainly, it doesn't have to be basics, you can find other utility lands as well, but basic lands are the most accessible thing, and much less of a downgrade than you probably think.

Mind Over Matter is gonna need somewhat of a replacement. The most important thing Mind Over Matter does is make late game, big mana turns. It's not quite the same thing, but Coveted Jewel is a card you can play on a budget that people here have had success with, and which has some pretty interesting synergies. Whatever you end up doing, I'd recommend keeping the general balance of card functions in proportion, and since everything you need to cut is making mana, try to have the replacements also make mana, or you'll probably end up bottlenecked on that resource.

[Sefir]

NOOO!!!
After a long time, a wild 3-card infinite appeared in my Zedruu. This is what happens when I goldfish with the deck at 4am!!!

With Wormfang Manta, Sakashima the Impostor and Mirage Mirror in play, pay 2+2 mana in Mirror, targeting Manta and Sakashima (with that exact order), then Mirror becomes a copy of Sakashima and, while the second activation is still on the stack, pay UUCC to bounce the SakaMirror to my hand eot! Then Mirror becomes a Manta and bounces back to my hand eot, thus giving me an extra turn. Next turn I can just replay Mirror and continue the loop for infinite turns!!

I love all these 3 cards and I am extremely sad that one of these has to go.
The card that will go is unfortunately Mirage Mirror. Amazing card, amazing flexibility, saved me many times on its own, but it has no unique combos. Wormfang Manta is too cool and unique to cut while Sakashima's ability to self-bounce and compliment Zedruu is too good.
Other cards can be used as 2nd copies of Mirror of Fate in the MoF combos (Replication Technique/either of my 2 Saheeli/Scheming Fence) or 2nd copies of Magosi, the Waterveil in the Chance for Glory+Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch+Magosi (Thespian's Stage) or even turn into 2nd copies of Wormfang Manta in the Manta+Lore Drakkis+Leave//Chance combos (Saheeli, Sublime Artificier).

A big loss is with the Pendant of Prosperity combos, that now absolutely require Scheming Fence in my lists in the Pendant+Mind Over Matter+whatever gives 2+mana/doubles the draws, as opposed to before, where I could just turn my Mirror into a Pendant.

It was nice while it lasted, but now I have an empty slot and brainstorming is required.....

[slask]

The cards I need to cut are
Chrome Mox
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Mind Over Matter Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn.

I usually have to really think with these questions, but this one is pretty straight forward. 4 of those are either lands or basically lands. The ceiling of the decks power might take a hit, but the floor wouldn't really be hurt much if you played 4 basics or three and a cheap mana rock in place of everything there but Mind Over Matter. The only combo broken by that would be not having Chrome Mox for Displacer Kitten, but all the other cards involved in that have plenty else going on. Certainly, it doesn't have to be basics, you can find other utility lands as well, but basic lands are the most accessible thing, and much less of a downgrade than you probably think.

Mind Over Matter is gonna need somewhat of a replacement. The most important thing Mind Over Matter does is make late game, big mana turns. It's not quite the same thing, but Coveted Jewel is a card you can play on a budget that people here have had success with, and which has some pretty interesting synergies. Whatever you end up doing, I'd recommend keeping the general balance of card functions in proportion, and since everything you need to cut is making mana, try to have the replacements also make mana, or you'll probably end up bottlenecked on that resource.

Thank you so much for the reply m8, and the suggestions! Really looking forward to try this deck out. All the best to you!

[tstorm823]

It was nice while it lasted, but now I have an empty slot and brainstorming is required.....

Don't know how closely you're watching, but the current spoilers have some interesting cards. Some opportunities (at least for me) for some more Saheeli turbo-flip cheese, spells cast from all over the place, and a big dumb elephant.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned this in here yet: the newer two blue man-lands are close to strictly better for this deck than the old ones. They cost less to activate, which is huge, and have relevant abilities.

[Sefir]

It was nice while it lasted, but now I have an empty slot and brainstorming is required.....

Don't know how closely you're watching, but the current spoilers have some interesting cards. Some opportunities (at least for me) for some more Saheeli turbo-flip cheese, spells cast from all over the place, and a big dumb elephant.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned this in here yet: the newer two blue man-lands are close to strictly better for this deck than the old ones. They cost less to activate, which is huge, and have relevant abilities.

Close enough, I am sure we will talk about rulings regarding the Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun flipping in the future. Though my guess is that it works fine with Craft abilities. Sunbird Standard is the card I probably liked the most. Obviously the Gods are the easiest, you just turn Azor's Gateway into a God with Saheeli and then it automatically dies to legendary ruling and transforms on its own. I do have to mention that I found 0 combo potential in the Gods though. I guess Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation can be fun with Replication Technique and Ojer Pakpatiq, Deepest Epoch might be the boring, generically useful one. Finally, Tishana's Tidebinder is so, so close to be a great card for my Wormfang Manta, but the last sentence ruins it. Can be a useful tool though.

EDIT: It works. Freakin Tishana's Tidebinder works. I just need to be careful and bounce my Manta with a Leave//Chance with the Manta etb trigger on the stack, take an extra turn from the Manta ltb trigger AND THEN cast the Tidebinder to counter the etb trigger. Thus a Wormfang Manta+Tishana's Tidebinder+Leave//Chance+Lore Drakkis/Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is possible. And the card is very good in general, with further synergy with Chance for Glory (Exalted Flamer+Chance for Glory+Displacer Kitten+Tidebinder comes to mind), possible Liquimetal Torque shenanigans, etc. I might have found the card I wanted.

[tstorm823]

Close enough, I am sure we will talk about rulings regarding the Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun flipping in the future. Though my guess is that it works fine with Craft abilities. Sunbird Standard is the card I probably liked the most. Obviously the Gods are the easiest, you just turn Azor's Gateway into a God with Saheeli and then it automatically dies to legendary ruling and transforms on its own. I do have to mention that I found 0 combo potential in the Gods though. I guess Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation can be fun with Replication Technique and Ojer Pakpatiq, Deepest Epoch might be the boring, generically useful one. Finally, "Tishana's Tidebinder" is so, so close to be a great card for my Wormfang Manta, but the last sentence ruins it. Can be a useful tool though.

EDIT: It works. Freakin "Tishana's Tidebinder" works. I just need to be careful and bounce my Manta with a Leave//Chance with the Manta etb trigger on the stack, take an extra turn from the Manta ltb trigger AND THEN cast the Tidebinder to counter the etb trigger. Thus a Wormfang Manta+Tishana's Tidebinder+Leave//Chance+Lore Drakkis/Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is possible. And the card is very good in general, with further synergy with Chance for Glory (Exalted Flamer+Chance for Glory+Displacer Kitten+Tidebinder comes to mind), possible Liquimetal Torque shenanigans, etc. I might have found the card I wanted.

Very nice!

As far as flipping cards, the gods are an easy flip, but I was actually looking at The Everflowing Well. It's a card that could be worth using Saheeli to cheat the flip, or with a Sphinx of the Second Sun down it could be a card to help flip Azor's Gateway, or if it's already flipped, the backside is another way to make Azor's Gateway a Golden Guardian.

[slask]

Hey @tstorm823 ! I just wondered if Mirrorworks could be good in this deck, being able to make some combos easier to pull off?

[tstorm823]

Hey @tstorm823 ! I just wondered if Mirrorworks could be good in this deck, being able to make some combos easier to pull off?

Could you play Mirrorworks in this deck, absolutely, if you built appropriately around it to make it consistently fun to cast.

I'm going to push back on your rationale, though. Making the combos easier to pull off is sort of the opposite of our ethos here. I want the deck able to pull off big splashy synergy plays or participate in punchy interactive games consistently, and have the combo kills be unreasonably difficult to pull off. Typically when I win with a combo, it's in a situation where a Laboratory Maniac or a Fireball could have ended the game with much less effort. The effort is a big part of what makes it fun though, for me and my opponents, cause most of the best games of Magic are the ones that feel like the winner really worked for it.

[slask]

Hey @tstorm823 ! I just wondered if Mirrorworks could be good in this deck, being able to make some combos easier to pull off?

Could you play Mirrorworks in this deck, absolutely, if you built appropriately around it to make it consistently fun to cast.

I'm going to push back on your rationale, though. Making the combos easier to pull off is sort of the opposite of our ethos here. I want the deck able to pull off big splashy synergy plays or participate in punchy interactive games consistently, and have the combo kills be unreasonably difficult to pull off. Typically when I win with a combo, it's in a situation where a Laboratory Maniac or a Fireball could have ended the game with much less effort. The effort is a big part of what makes it fun though, for me and my opponents, cause most of the best games of Magic are the ones that feel like the winner really worked for it.

Very true, I agree that it is the fun too be had that is always the priority and the effort you put in to achieve that well-deserved victory! I am still waiting for some cards to get shipped from cardmarket to complete your deck so I have not had the chance to try it out yet, but I am super exited. Thank you for pushing back on my rationale, it is easy sometimes to forget that a decks power does not equal fun (necessarily), I think this is a great reminder to be able to enjoy commander and magic in the long run.

[Ryujin76]

Don't know how closely you're watching, but the current spoilers have some interesting cards. Some opportunities (at least for me) for some more Saheeli turbo-flip cheese, spells cast from all over the place, and a big dumb elephant.

Hello tstorm, long time lurker. The more I've been thinking about Quintorius Kand, the more I love how it interacts with cards already in the deck like Possibility Storm and Cadric, Soul Kindler. The only concern I have is while not an infinite, it seems stupidly strong together with Displacer Kitten. Only some playtesting will tell, but what are your thoughts on the strength of our new elephant friend?

[tstorm823]

Hello tstorm, long time lurker. The more I've been thinking about Quintorius Kand, the more I love how it interacts with cards already in the deck like Possibility Storm and Cadric, Soul Kindler. The only concern I have is while not an infinite, it seems stupidly strong together with Displacer Kitten. Only some playtesting will tell, but what are your thoughts on the strength of our new elephant friend?

That is pretty much my exact take on it, actually. I've been considering the potential death of that feline friend in the next iteration, and the elephant is extra reason to, cause that's got such a high percentage change of 2-card ending the game.

But yeah, the plus ability is a canned army to Mirrorweave (or donate if necessary), the minus is fancy cascade which is fine, the ultimate effectively combos with Mirror of Fate, and then the triggered ability at the top...

Quintorious Kand's triggered ability is pretty niche, it's not going to trigger very often, unless you're an insane person playing Possibility Storm, Knowledge Pool, and Eye of the Storm, and then it's a machine gun death machine. I did have to check for Eye of the Storm, I wasn't sure if it worked, but:

707.12. An effect that instructs a player to cast a copy of an object (and not just copy a spell) follows
the rules for casting spells, except that the copy is created in the same zone the object is in and then
cast while another spell or ability is resolving.

Which means that the copies create by Eye are created in exile and then cast, sufficient for triggering Quint. So anything that can arbitrarily cast spells in and out of those three permanents gets a spout that ends the game. I haven't formulated anything immediately that would make him a 4-card combo piece, but there are plenty of 4 card loops that pull him in as the 5th to end the game, and I'm sure there's something in here that can do it. Alternatively, a sufficiently big Mind's Desire can become game ending as well.

And then the synergy list is long:
Eye of the Storm
Knowledge Pool
Possibility Storm
Mind's Desire
Mirror of Fate
Mirrorweave
Cadric, Soul Kindler
Venser, the Sojourner flickers him to discover every turn.
Jeskai Ascendancy likely triggers twice if you cast quint and then discover.
Chance for Glory into Quint's ultimate the next turn is either a sweet hail mary, or if you have a spell to not die, it recurs both for a second extra turn.
Mind Over Matter can dump hand for mana before ultimate, make even more mana, and then cast all those spells anyways.
Vanish into Memory can be a draw 3 with the tokens.
Zedruu the Greathearted can donate the tokens.

And then there's the potential lifegain package I've played in the past that the triggered ability could play into potentially. And I'm sure there are other things I'm still missing here. It's a pretty deep card to delve into.