Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

Rules question. I know it's not in the current build, but how does Chrome Mox interact with Strionic Resonator? You would imprint two cards under the Mox, but would it tap for just a single mana chosen from the two imprinted cards, or tap for two mana, one from each of the imprinted card's colour identity?

[lyonhaert]

Rules question. I know it's not in the current build, but how does Chrome Mox interact with Strionic Resonator? You would imprint two cards under the Mox, but would it tap for just a single mana chosen from the two imprinted cards, or tap for two mana, one from each of the imprinted card's colour identity?

If you imprinted two cards it would only tap for one mana, but I'm pretty sure you'd be able to select the color from any of the imprinted cards (such as if you imprinted a rw card and a u card).

[tstorm823]

If you imprinted two cards it would only tap for one mana, but I'm pretty sure you'd be able to select the color from any of the imprinted cards (such as if you imprinted a rw card and a u card).

I believe this is the correct answer. Ability sees both cards, and when it asks what color they are, it will get the combined color, but the ability still only makes one mana.

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

Dang, thought I was onto something then. Can't win them all.

[tstorm823]

I mean, if you want to Strionic Resonator an Isochron Scepter imprint, that works the way you want it to.

[Sefir]

For everyone still using Gilded Lotus : Why not Coveted Jewel instead?

For the cost of 1 extra mana you get the same amount of ramp, drawing 3 extra cards, you draw cards with Zedruu if someone else gets it, it is much superior to copy, let alone to make it a creature and abuse it with cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Jeskai Ascendancy . And if you run the Mind Over Matter version of Zedruu, it has even more combos.

[tstorm823]

For everyone still using Gilded Lotus : Why not Coveted Jewel instead?

For the cost of 1 extra mana you get the same amount of ramp, drawing 3 extra cards, you draw cards with Zedruu if someone else gets it, it is much superior to copy, let alone to make it a creature and abuse it with cards like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Jeskai Ascendancy . And if you run the Mind Over Matter version of Zedruu, it has even more combos.

In a very very early version of this deck, I had a wide variety of group hug elements, including a Mana Flare. That was a bad idea, it very reliably led to other players going off early and the game just ending immediately, because I had given them like 5 extra cards and double mana. I have learned not to give another player both free cards and free mana, only 1 at a time, or it becomes an exercise in kingmaking. Coveted Jewel always struck me as an exceptionally high risk card, particularly since an opponent gets the additional cards and the mana without needing to spend either.

[Sefir]

In a very very early version of this deck, I had a wide variety of group hug elements, including a Mana Flare. That was a bad idea, it very reliably led to other players going off early and the game just ending immediately, because I had given them like 5 extra cards and double mana. I have learned not to give another player both free cards and free mana, only 1 at a time, or it becomes an exercise in kingmaking. Coveted Jewel always struck me as an exceptionally high risk card, particularly since an opponent gets the additional cards and the mana without needing to spend either.

You certainly can't slam jam it. I treat it more like an "I accelerate and combo this turn and I win" card than a "I play this card to help me with my future turns" one. In a few playtests I had with the card in this deck (around 10 games), it was never taken away, but I had to wait until I had something like a Replication Technique or March of the Machines to use it in its full potential and give me the game (and it did in all cases some kind of interaction happened). I guess that makes it a card with a different role than Gilded Lotus after all.

[tstorm823]

You certainly can't slam jam it. I treat it more like an "I accelerate and combo this turn and I win" card than a "I play this card to help me with my future turns" one. In a few playtests I had with the card in this deck (around 10 games), it was never taken away, but I had to wait until I had something like a Replication Technique or March of the Machines to use it in its full potential and give me the game (and it did in all cases some kind of interaction happened). I guess that makes it a card with a different role than Gilded Lotus after all.

When you put it that way, it might be worth more consideration than I gave it. More comparable in function to something like a Mind's Desire or Time Spiral than either a Gilded Lotus or a Howling Mine. That actually might be a good thought for people try to cut a Time Spiral from their budget.

[bashrag]

Eruth, Tormented Prophet has some strong synergy with this deck. Possibility Storm, Mirror of Fate, and all the draw permanents do a bit more when she's out. I'm not thrilled about the thought of going hellbent but she might add enough strength to be worth it. Any thoughts on her?

[tstorm823]

Eruth, Tormented Prophet has some strong synergy with this deck. Possibility Storm, Mirror of Fate, and all the draw permanents do a bit more when she's out. I'm not thrilled about the thought of going hellbent but she might add enough strength to be worth it. Any thoughts on her?

If you could drop Eruth and immediately go into ending the game, it seems very powerful. However, I've played against Uba Mask and it annihilates this deck. The downside is rough here.

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

Hey Team Zedruu!

IRL I'm a graphic designer and was looking to move into book layouts, so over the last few months I've been working on a self-directed project to book-ify @tstorm823's guide and the subsequent thread here.

I wanted to share it with you all, hope you like it: https://www.behance.net/gallery/1318927 ... f-All-Time

It's not actually a physical book, what you're seeing are just digital mockups.

[Sefir]

I wanted to share it with you all, hope you like it: https://www.behance.net/gallery/1318927 ... f-All-Time

Seems very good and I would definetely pay for a real physical copy. Keep up the good work!!

[indemidelo]

Hi, indemidelo here.
I am one of the countless users that stumbled on this thread (or in my case on the mtgs thread) and fell in love with the deck. First of all, I would thank tstorm823 and all other contributors for this creation, which is surely one of the best ways to play Magic nowadays.

My playgroup follows an unwritten rule that limits the abuse of overpowered cards and commanders. I could try the deck this weekend without being stomped too early, having all the time to taste some of its nuances.

After around ten hours of gameplay, I have some questions and observations on specific cards. Some are sincere appreciations, others will be requests for replacements. Let's start:

• Manabase: is there a reason to not run the battlebond/CML multiplayer duals (e.g. Sea of Clouds)? Same for shocklands. Are the two land types considered "too broken"?

• Randomness (in the person of Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool): my playgroup kinda hated those cards, but I am sure it's just because they never had to play with. After all, they are not as oppressive as they seem, plus they help the slowest or weakest player to catch with the rest of the pool.

• Pandemonium: boy I really liked it compared to Warstorm Surge. Other than being cheaper, it enables a lot of political decisions and – maybe one of the best outcomes – speeds up games really fast. 100% not coming back.

• Zendikar DFMCs Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave, and the others: I really like the modal feature of them, but have to agree that the white card is a bit underperforming. Did you consider other cards like Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins?

• Heliod, Sun-Crowned: never cast it but exiled with Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun: maybe I was not that confident with all the possible combos, but I would like to replace it with something more useful in different situations. Right now I feel like it merits its spot just for the combo potential.

• Leyline of Anticipation: is playing at instant speed so crucial to deserve a spot on the list? My sample size is low, I had five games and some goldfish, but – maybe it's my playgroup – I never felt the urge to play my stuff in response to others' actions, or am I missing some combos with Leyline?

• Barren Glory: I don't know how many of us are playing it, but I tried and it seems a lot a win-more condition. If you have infinite mana (to donate each permanent to your opponent and start the next turn with only Glory into play), you can achieve victory in a lot of other ways. It is also possible to float mana EOT, cast Leave // Chance to bounce every other permanent, and use a Firestorm to get rid of your hand… But it's as fringe as fragile (you need A LOT of targets). What do the other players have in this slot?

• Mirror of Fate: I know, I know. Why would you renounce to half the pleasure of this deck cutting the infinite Doomsday enabler? I have some motivation to take a (temporary) step away from the Mirror:
  • My playgroup was not ready for such convoluted combos
  • They also play a decent amount of interaction, that would have turned the mirror activation into suicide for me
  • I had a blast in winning one of the games the old way: taking my part in controlling the board, using semi-combos to gain an advantage, and finishing my last opponent with Jeskai Ascendancy that keeps untapping Brash Taunter. I see Mirror of Fate as a tool solely selected to make you win, but maybe this is not my priority with the deck!
  Has any of you ever considered playing without the Mirror? If so, what did you replace it with?

Thank you again for this fantastic deck, it is making me appreciate Commander in a way I could have never imagined.

[tstorm823]

Hi there, @indemidelo. Thank you very much for commenting!

I believe a single answer covers most of your questions: it's all just whatever makes me happy. There's no reason not to run battle lands or shock lands, I just never hunted them down for this deck and ma happy with what I have. Emeria's call isn't as good as the others, but having just exactly that cycle makes me happy. If I wanted to cut for another double sided land, I'd want Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore or Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge, but then I'd adjust my basic lands, and having a 3 color deck where 1/3rd the deck is lands, which is 33 cards, and has exactly 3 of each basic, I just really like the way the numbers work out.

Mirror of Fate and Barren Glory are again just things that I like a lot. They are absolutely win-more, but they give me joy, so I play them. I don't know what to replace them with, because it'll have to be something you enjoy, but I will say that you shouldn't be replacing just one card at a time here. If you're not on Barren Glory, there are better options for you than Leave // Chance or Temporal Cascade. If you're not on Mirror of Fate, you may not want Rest in Peace or Temporal Mastery. A bunch of my card choices only make sense within the context of my silly win conditions, so make sure when you take out a card, you reassess all the cards that are mentioned as working with it.

And yes, playing at instant speed is just that big of a deal. It simultaneously allows you to not tap out on your turn and act as the police with the decent amount of interaction we have here, it also lets you play something like Eye of the Storm and then be the first person to untap with it. That is a game winning line.

[lyonhaert]

@indemidelo, I'll add that tstorm's version tends to avoid searching and shuffling in favor of draw. And usually when you add shocks, you add fetches. That's at least noteworthy to me because it's something I like about its design and have been trying to do a bit more with my other decks.

Also, I'll admit I took Knowledge Pool out of my version because I mostly play over webcam and that's too much overhead for my fellow players (and myself).

To me, the heart of this deck is more of a philosophy than specific cards that are part of win conditions.

[rmelzer1986]

@indemidelo, I'll add that tstorm's version tends to avoid searching and shuffling in favor of draw. And usually when you add shocks, you add fetches. That's at least noteworthy to me because it's something I like about its design and have been trying to do a bit more with my other decks.

Also, I'll admit I took Knowledge Pool out of my version because I mostly play over webcam and that's too much overhead for my fellow players (and myself).

To me, the heart of this deck is more of a philosophy than specific cards that are part of win conditions.

I've not really come across the need for shocks/fetches/abur/etc since it is easy enough to come across the colors I need through all of the draw in the deck. Usually I'm more concerned about quantity of mana as opposed to the typical use of fetches (color fixing).

I'm in the same boat regarding Knowledge Pool and Eye of the Storm and re-inserted the Memnite bounce combo. So far that's been a good substitution while being able to re-incorporate the combo that drew me to the deck in the first place.

[Sefir]

I personally stopped using the Mamnite combo when my meta changed in a way that it was clear that Dissipation Field was actually helping my opponents and provoked them to attacking me than the opposite (aka, they now use mostly creatures with ETB effects). I also removed the main three chaos cards (Possibility Storm, Knowledge Pool, Eye of the Storm) from the deck, mostly for time saving (it is worse online) but also for the fact that my opponents faced them as really unfun cards and I take that factor in great consideration when I play something. Especially PS and KP are considered as hateful stax pieces that are extremely hard to remove and slow the game a lot. I replaced them with other cards though that have 4-card combos synergies and are more acceptable in my playgroup. There are still chaos ellements through other pieces, like the great Share the Spoils but probably less than the pure tstorm list.

In other news, Coveted Jewel continues to overperform in my tests. It is almost always a "I play it and win" situation, where it either provides me with needed gas or/and a way to untap it/clone it. Yestarday I was able to steal a Nyxbloom Ancient, immediately play the Jewel with Alhammarret's Archive in play and then use the Jewel mana to Replication Technique it. It was glorious.

[lyonhaert]

I personally stopped using the Mamnite combo when my meta changed in a way that it was clear that Dissipation Field was actually helping my opponents and provoked them to attacking me than the opposite (aka, they now use mostly creatures with ETB effects). I also removed the main three chaos cards (Possibility Storm, Knowledge Pool, Eye of the Storm) from the deck, mostly for time saving (it is worse online) but also for the fact that my opponents faced them as really unfun cards and I take that factor in great consideration when I play something. Especially PS and KP are considered as hateful stax pieces that are extremely hard to remove and slow the game a lot. I replaced them with other cards though that have 4-card combos synergies and are more acceptable in my playgroup. There are still chaos ellements through other pieces, like the great Share the Spoils but probably less than the pure tstorm list.

I'm pondering Eye of the Storm as well unless I'll be playing in person. Luckily I play with enough people that find P-Storm delightful occasionally. It's definitely got a time sink aspect to it on resolving stuff, but they seem to like the gamble of possibly turning a weenie into a haymaker. I like those people.

In other news, Coveted Jewel continues to overperform in my tests. It is almost always a "I play it and win" situation, where it either provides me with needed gas or/and a way to untap it/clone it. Yestarday I was able to steal a Nyxbloom Ancient, immediately play the Jewel with Alhammarret's Archive in play and then use the Jewel mana to Replication Technique it. It was glorious.

Just found mine yesterday finally. :D

I've got a few other cards I want to try out like the sphinx and sorcerer class, too.

[ThatOneGuyJesse]

Has any of you ever considered playing without the Mirror? If so, what did you replace it with?

I encountered many of the experiences you listed so I made some changes in My List.
I have been playing the deck for a couple years now and have yet to win with Barren Glory, but it's staying in until I manage to win with it once.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I have wanted for years now to make Zedruu a Jund counterpart. (Jund specifically, because red is my favorite magic color, so 1 of each color but two of red strikes a good color balance for me.) And I know the first dumb synergy/combo I'd build into it: Hostility + Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro + Hurricane/Earthquake/Fireball type effects. Basically "I'll spare you this 10 damage, but the next time it's double." And like, there's lots to work off just from there. Vigor is Hostility's cousin that is also bonkers with Earthquake, any burn spell is good with Hostility, any shaman synergizes with Sachi and about there my brain hurts and I stop planning. So to bring it all the way back around, I haven't built a similar deck succesfully.

I've taken this idea and ran with it. I've made a rough draft of a Jund deck that has the same philosophy (low redundancy, high synergy).

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/26EF6MwB-kegNsCJ0nPEhQ

It's a highly interactive, janky deck with enough synergy to pull off some truly inspired wins.

Firstly,

1) You need to see a lot of cards to hit the synergies.

I wanted to give this a Jund spin, so I went with wheels instead of howling mine-type effects. e.g., Wheel of Misfortune Khorvath's Fury Burning Inquiry. In order to break parity further, I've added several synergistic discard effects, e.g., Surly Badgersaur, Bone Miser, Sangromancer (Sangromancer is a shaman, so it's effects are doubled with Harmonic Prodigy and can make mana with Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro.

Another theme is land sacrifice, and I've included strong synergies like The Gitrog Monster, Titania, Protector of Argoth , and Sylvan Safekeeper. Cards like Moraug, Fury of Akoum, Stone-Seeder Hierophant, and Natural Affinity can be game-winners when combined.

For the commander, I wanted one like Zedruu—one that's not essential for the deck to function. I settled on Lord Windgrace because it tends to compliment the deck's strategy rather than lead it. It also conjoins the two strongest themes—wheeling and land sacrifice.

Other synergies include a swath of burn spells and non-combat damage effects, e.g., Toralf, God of Fury // Toralf's Hammer, Hostility, Brash Taunter, Tainted Strike, and Volcano Hellion.

I've run it several times now, and think it has potential for these reasons:
1) It can win. It's a bit slow still and often loses to more-consistent decks, but the synergies do come together frequently-enough.
2) Nobody can predict it (including me). I am constantly recrafting my gameplan with each wheel or turn cycle. Like Zedruu, I never enter a game knowing how I'm going to win.
3) It's not boring. This is always my issue, and it's why I like Zedruu. This deck is extremely difficult to pilot so far—there are tons of decisions to make each turn and all of them are important.

Deck highlight plays so far:
1) Have Brash Taunter out. Play Volcano Hellion, targeting Brash Taunter for 10 damage. Play Tainted Strike on Brash Taunter and hit an opponent for 10 poison counters.

2) Toralf, God of Fury // Toralf's Hammer + Blasphemous Act. Enough said.

3) This one was my favorite. I was staring down a board of sea monsters from an Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait deck. I had out The Gitrog Monster, Sylvan Safekeeper. I began sacrificing lands to draw cards and hope for a boardwipe. I didn't get one, but did draw into Titania, Protector of Argoth and Archfiend of Ifnir. I play both and sacrificed almost all my lands to fill my hand with cards and field with elementals, and passed the turn. Cleanup step, I discarded 8+ cards, wiping my opponent's board with Archfiend of Ifnir. The couldn't recover from the one-sided board wipe, and the next turn I swung for game. Not an optimal play, because it would have been game over if they mass-bounced my field, but it was very cool synergy.

Let me know what you think and if you have any ideas. The deck is still very much a rough draft.

Edit: I forgot one thing. The currently-underused synergy in this deck involves turning lands into creatures. I have Rude Awakening, Natural Affinity, and Life // Death, but they don't have any combo pieces yet. Ideas include:
1) Untapping all creatures (which would then include lands)
2) Creature sacrifice outlets that are worth sacrificing lands for
3) Doing something with opponent's lands after Natural Affinity. Maybe Massacre Wurm?

[tstorm823]

.Let me know what you think and if you have any ideas. The deck is still very much a rough draft.

I love that last story. I'm away from computer and just have my phone, so I'll dig into it better after the weekend, but to start, I'm excited you made this.

[lyonhaert]

Yeah, I'll be taking a look at it more later, too. I don't have a lands deck or a jund deck (and was considering Lord Windgrace as a potential thing to try), so maybe this will be a nice start.

[Sefir]

Just be careful. It is very easy to go from "funky interactions" to "I always go for the optimal Gitrog Monster-Dakmore Salvage-free Discard outlet game winning line". I would go as far as reccommend to remove the frog entirely.

EDIT: Skirge Familiar is a MUST in the deck.

[ihatemaryfisher]

Just be careful. It is very easy to go from "funky interactions" to "I always go for the optimal Gitrog Monster-Dakmore Salvage-free Discard outlet game winning line". I would go as far as recommend to remove the frog entirely.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. The truth is that I don't like Gitrog Monster very much. It feels too expensive as just a synergy piece, and I don't fully utilize it's combo potential (and I don't want to).

It's ideal role right now is participating in janky combos like my 3rd story in my above comment...but that combo really wasn't very good.

Honestly, it's stayed in largely because the first thing somebody says when they see the decklist is "You're running a land-sac and discard deck. You'd be an idiot NOT to run Gitrog."

EDIT: Skirge Familiar is a MUST in the deck.

I've been considering something like this. The downsides:
1. Five mana is expensive
2. The fact that it's only black mana is a serious limitation. This deck is very hungry for specific colored mana.

That being said, it turns every X-costed burn spell into better Conflagrate, which has been overperforming anyway. It's worth trying out. I'll swap out Reiterate for it for testing.