Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Sefir]

I also happen to own a gorgeous altered art one, so there's that as well.......

Can't argue with that reasoning.

[Larken]

I hadn't yet seen it mentioned here, but the new surveil lands seem really good to me. Meticulous Archive, Thundering Falls, Elegant Parlor.

[Nickb3k]

So I hope this isn't too far off topic, but I have a thought experiment for the group - what Black or Green cards do you wish Zedruu had access to? I've been tinkering with a 5c version of this style deck, and am looking for inspiration. Is something like Orcish Bowmasters too generically strong, or exactly what the deck would want (especially since it creates 0/0 tokens)? Is Primeval Bounty too "do-nothing" for 6 mana without drawing cards, or is the synergy with Crystalline Crawler and Walking Archive worth the slot?

Some of the stuff I've been tinkering with:
Invasion of Alara // Awaken the Maelstrom (esp copying Awaken the Maelstrom on the back)
Rona, Herald of Invasion // Rona, Tolarian Obliterator
Xyris, the Writhing Storm
Kiora's Follower
Ready // Willing
Alchemist's Refuge
Repudiate // Replicate

Thanks to everyone on this thread for all the ideas over the years! Love that it's still going strong with ideas year after year.

[tstorm823]

The most Zedruu-y cards in green and black I think are Recycle and Null Profusion.

[Ryujin76]

The most Zedruu-y cards in green and black I think are Recycle and Null Profusion.

Wanna shoutout my boy Infernal Sovereign as well. Mirrorweave him and you'll start melting.

[tstorm823]

The most Zedruu-y cards in green and black I think are Recycle and Null Profusion.

Wanna shoutout my boy Infernal Sovereign as well. Mirrorweave him and you'll start melting.

I was unaware of that card.

[Zyren]

There's also an infinite mana combo with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse and Dockside Extortionist (I run both) if opponents have 5+ artifacts / enchantments and theres enough creatures for parallax wave to use its counters with. With All Will Be One, that's a 4 card combo win.

Could you explain the combo here? I think you're sending Parallax Wave to the graveyard to retrieve with Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse, but removing all of Parallax Wave's counters doesn't kill it immediately. It is only sacrificed at your next upkeep.

you're right. I was confusing vanishing and fading.


I've been thinking about Disorder in the Court.

• It can provide a blink for ETB effects for cards like Cavalier of Dawn, Dockside Extortionist, Astral Dragon
• It can get you back cards you've donated like Starke of Rath and Gilded Drake.
• It can prevent a fatal attack from killing you.
• It can turn off an opponents commander for a turn or a combo that involves any creature.
• It's mass creature token removal
• It can provide a lot of clues. This can be useful for Rise and Shine as well as donations, especially with Coveted Falcon.

[Nickb3k]

The most Zedruu-y cards in green and black I think are Recycle and Null Profusion.

Wanna shoutout my boy Infernal Sovereign as well. Mirrorweave him and you'll start melting.

Oh that's a spicy one - thanks, was also unaware this existed! Seems like exactly the right kind of dangerous this kind of deck wants with adding life loss to the card draw.

[Ryujin76]

The most Zedruu-y cards in green and black I think are Recycle and Null Profusion.

Wanna shoutout my boy Infernal Sovereign as well. Mirrorweave him and you'll start melting.

Oh that's a spicy one - thanks, was also unaware this existed! Seems like exactly the right kind of dangerous this kind of deck wants with adding life loss to the card draw.

I you want to continue down this route, Song of Creation is another spicy option that I forgot about.

[Ryujin76]

Think Struggle for Project Purity will be replacing Font of Mythos? Also Ajani, Nacatl Pariah // Ajani, Nacatl Avenger looks like another easy way of flipping Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun with Saheeli, Sublime Artificer.

[tstorm823]

Think Struggle for Project Purity will be replacing Font of Mythos?

Not for me. A lot of the games I get to play are 1v1, probably like 1/3 of the time. And then some games are 3 people, more than 4 is super rare, and the card will do less if opponents die. So for me, I'd expect that to average out to about a Font of Mythos but with higher variance game to game.

If you play exclusively 4-player games, that swap makes sense.

Also Ajani, Nacatl Pariah // Ajani, Nacatl Avenger looks like another easy way of flipping Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun with Saheeli, Sublime Artificer.

It might be the easiest flip, I don't think it does anything else meaningful though.

[ThatOneGuyJesse]

It might be kinda lame because it's obviously good but Faerie Mastermind has great synergy with Kami of the Crescent Moon and friends.

Also, I've been busy compiling all the combos this deck can play into 1 big list: https://archidekt.com/decks/7097071/
If you'd like to see, be sure to view as Grid, and group by Categories (Multiple):

[tstorm823]

Also, I've been busy compiling all the combos this deck can play into 1 big list: https://archidekt.com/decks/7097071/
If you'd like to see, be sure to view as Grid, and group by Categories (Multiple): image.png

That's super neat! I got a good laugh at "how are these not 3-card combos?"

[Ryujin76]

Have a rules and interactions question for the folks here.

Assuming I control a Mirage Mirror, Restless Spire and some enchantment. What would be the end result of activating the abilities in this way:
(Top of stack, resolves first) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting Restless Spire) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting enchantment)
let the Mirage Mirror become a Restless Spire and activate Mirage Mirror as Restless Spire's manland ability.
(Top of stack, resolves first) - (Mirage Mirror as Restless Spire's manland ability) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting enchantment)

My understanding is that the Mirage Mirror would now a copy of the enchantment that is also a 2/1 blue and red elemental creature with "As long as it's your turn, this creature has first strike."

A similar interaction I'm not too certain with is, assuming I control Mirage Mirror, and have already cast and resolved a Rise and Shine on it. If I then proceed to use the activated ability of the mirror, would it still retain it's 0/0 artifact creature qualities?

I assume that it would retain it's 0/0 artifact creature qualities as things that modify copiable abilities are applied on layer 1 while type and power/toughness effects are applied on layers 4 and 7 respectively, but I'm not 100% sure.

The reason I'm working through interactions like this is to see if Mirage Mirror can do what Opalescence does and turn enchantments into creatures for Mirrorweave shenanigans.

[tstorm823]

Have a rules and interactions question for the folks here.

Assuming I control a Mirage Mirror, Restless Spire and some enchantment. What would be the end result of activating the abilities in this way:
(Top of stack, resolves first) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting Restless Spire) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting enchantment)
let the Mirage Mirror become a Restless Spire and activate Mirage Mirror as Restless Spire's manland ability.
(Top of stack, resolves first) - (Mirage Mirror as Restless Spire's manland ability) - (Mirage Mirror ability targeting enchantment)

My understanding is that the Mirage Mirror would now a copy of the enchantment that is also a 2/1 blue and red elemental creature with "As long as it's your turn, this creature has first strike."

A similar interaction I'm not too certain with is, assuming I control Mirage Mirror, and have already cast and resolved a Rise and Shine on it. If I then proceed to use the activated ability of the mirror, would it still retain it's 0/0 artifact creature qualities?

I assume that it would retain it's 0/0 artifact creature qualities as things that modify copiable abilities are applied on layer 1 while type and power/toughness effects are applied on layers 4 and 7 respectively, but I'm not 100% sure.

The reason I'm working through interactions like this is to see if Mirage Mirror can do what Opalescence does and turn enchantments into creatures for Mirrorweave shenanigans.

I believe your understanding is correct. Mirage Mirror's copy effect overwrites previous copy effects, but other continuous effects should still apply.

[tstorm823]

Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot is a tough card to analyze. I do a fair amount of noncombat damage in here (especially in version with Nin, the Pain Artist and/or Brash Taunter), but I can't even guess know what that amounts to without trying it.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I was intrigued by the card Alchemist's Gambit, since my friend built a Glacial Chasm deck. That led me to lean further into a "lose the game" version of the deck.

Running Chance for Glory and Alchemist's Gambit encourages Angel's Grace, Stifle, Trickbind, and Discontinuity. All of which are also powerful interaction. Honorable mention to Intervention Pact (+Wheel of Misfortune = infinite life?)

In terms of combos, it only opens one that I can find: "Build your own Hive Mind."

Bonus Round + Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Chance for Glory/Alchemist's Gambit + Sudden Substitution

It also requires each opponent to control a creature. Funnily enough, this combo scales to the number of players in the game: In a three player game it becomes a 3-card combo (drop Rootha, Mercurial Artist). In a 1v1 game, it's a two-card combo.

[tstorm823]

Alright brain trust, I need a sanity check. Does this go infinite:
The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege

I'm fairly confident Pandemonium is getting replaced long term, which opens up a lot of cards I've never been allowed to play because of Pandemonium + Swans of Bryn Argoll, The Locust God being a card I wanted to play and then had give up on pretty much immediately. Intuitively, a creature leaves play, Outpost Siege pings a bug for 1, I draw with Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot which makes another bug, and the first bug dies to the damage triggering again, which sounds like a 3 card loop, but I think it stacks in the wrong order to infinite. Cause the 1 damage is dealt, putting Taii's trigger on the stack, then state based actions are checked to kill the bug with damage putting Outpost Siege on the stack, so the Siege has to resolve first, if I understand correctly. So I could kill all the insects I have, then draw that many cards replacing the insects, but I'd need a way to retrigger Siege to draw more beyond that.

[Ryujin76]

Alright brain trust, I need a sanity check. Does this go infinite:
The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege

I'm fairly confident Pandemonium is getting replaced long term, which opens up a lot of cards I've never been allowed to play because of Pandemonium + Swans of Bryn Argoll, The Locust God being a card I wanted to play and then had give up on pretty much immediately. Intuitively, a creature leaves play, Outpost Siege pings a bug for 1, I draw with Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot which makes another bug, and the first bug dies to the damage triggering again, which sounds like a 3 card loop, but I think it stacks in the wrong order to infinite. Cause the 1 damage is dealt, putting Taii's trigger on the stack, then state based actions are checked to kill the bug with damage putting Outpost Siege on the stack, so the Siege has to resolve first, if I understand correctly. So I could kill all the insects I have, then draw that many cards replacing the insects, but I'd need a way to retrigger Siege to draw more beyond that.

I think The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege goes infinite assuming you have 2 1-toughness creatures when you trigger outpost siege.

[top of stack - first to resolve] "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect A" [bottom of stack]
When insect A dies, you get an Outpost Siege trigger and a Taii Wakeen trigger at the same time, as both the damage and creature leaving happens before priority is gotten again. Order them like this
[top of stack - first to resolve] "Taii Wakeen Draw", "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect B" [bottom of stack]
You draw a card and trigger Locust God before the Outpost Siege trigger
[top of stack - first to resolve] "Locust God", "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect B" [bottom of stack]
Now you have an new Insect C, and repeat ad nauseum.

[tstorm823]

I think The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege goes infinite assuming you have 2 1-toughness creatures when you trigger outpost siege.

[top of stack - first to resolve] "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect A" [bottom of stack]
When insect A dies, you get an Outpost Siege trigger and a Taii Wakeen trigger at the same time, as both the damage and creature leaving happens before priority is gotten again. Order them like this
[top of stack - first to resolve] "Taii Wakeen Draw", "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect B" [bottom of stack]
You draw a card and trigger Locust God before the Outpost Siege trigger
[top of stack - first to resolve] "Locust God", "Outpost Siege damage targeting insect B" [bottom of stack]
Now you have an new Insect C, and repeat ad nauseum.

Drat.

I mean, there's one more way to rationalize it if I really want to: those 3 cards definitely don't go infinite alone. Just getting those 3 in play leaves them staring at each other impotently. I'd need all 3 cards in play, with 2-3 other creatures, at least two of which have 1 toughness, and I'd need something to cause the extra creature to leave the battlefield or deal exactly one damage to an insect (which the deck has like 20 ways to trigger Outpost Siege), and Outpost Siege has to be on dragons, and I can't have activated Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot that turn...

I have been loose in the past on 3 card loops that either can't self-initiate or don't end the game alone, and these three kinda do neither.

[Sefir]

Alright brain trust, I need a sanity check. Does this go infinite:
The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege

I'm fairly confident Pandemonium is getting replaced long term, which opens up a lot of cards I've never been allowed to play because of Pandemonium + Swans of Bryn Argoll, The Locust God being a card I wanted to play and then had give up on pretty much immediately. Intuitively, a creature leaves play, Outpost Siege pings a bug for 1, I draw with Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot which makes another bug, and the first bug dies to the damage triggering again, which sounds like a 3 card loop, but I think it stacks in the wrong order to infinite. Cause the 1 damage is dealt, putting Taii's trigger on the stack, then state based actions are checked to kill the bug with damage putting Outpost Siege on the stack, so the Siege has to resolve first, if I understand correctly. So I could kill all the insects I have, then draw that many cards replacing the insects, but I'd need a way to retrigger Siege to draw more beyond that.

HA!
It reminds me a combo that I thought I found in another deck of mine, regarding Last Laugh, Sporeweb Weaver and something that will give the spider indestructible. I was never 100% sure how the stack went and if it resulted in an infinite! Is this a similar case?? Is it an infinite??

[Sefir]

Assimilation Aegis works pretty well with Wormfang Manta. A bit TOO well, it goes inifnite with any self-bouncing creature (Hi Rootha and Sakashima).....

[Ryujin76]

Alright brain trust, I need a sanity check. Does this go infinite:
The Locust God + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Outpost Siege

I'm fairly confident Pandemonium is getting replaced long term, which opens up a lot of cards I've never been allowed to play because of Pandemonium + Swans of Bryn Argoll, The Locust God being a card I wanted to play and then had give up on pretty much immediately. Intuitively, a creature leaves play, Outpost Siege pings a bug for 1, I draw with Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot which makes another bug, and the first bug dies to the damage triggering again, which sounds like a 3 card loop, but I think it stacks in the wrong order to infinite. Cause the 1 damage is dealt, putting Taii's trigger on the stack, then state based actions are checked to kill the bug with damage putting Outpost Siege on the stack, so the Siege has to resolve first, if I understand correctly. So I could kill all the insects I have, then draw that many cards replacing the insects, but I'd need a way to retrigger Siege to draw more beyond that.

HA!
It reminds me a combo that I thought I found in another deck of mine, regarding Last Laugh, Sporeweb Weaver and something that will give the spider indestructible. I was never 100% sure how the stack went and if it resulted in an infinite! Is this a similar case?? Is it an infinite??

I'm confident that the situation you described goes infinite. Assuming a board of a Last Laugh, a indestructible Sporeweb Weaver, a X/1 creature, and a Last Laugh trigger on the stack. The Last Laugh trigger would deal damage and trigger Sporeweaver, state based actions will kill the X/1 creature, and the next time you get priority, you will have both a Last Laugh trigger and a Sporeweb Weaver trigger to put on the stack in any order.

Assimilation Aegis works pretty well with Wormfang Manta. A bit TOO well, it goes inifnite with any self-bouncing creature (Hi Rootha and Sakashima).....

Wormfang Mantra on the path to becoming even more of an absolute menace

[tstorm823]

Assimilation Aegis works pretty well with Wormfang Manta. A bit TOO well, it goes inifnite with any self-bouncing creature (Hi Rootha and Sakashima).....

Can we get the self-help book "101 Ways To Combo With Wormfang Manta"?

[tstorm823]

Okidokie, updated deck draft time. Question of the day is how many legends is too many legends?

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Zedruu(1)

1 Zedruu the Greathearted

Lands (33)

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Izzet Boilerworks

1 Boros Garrison

1 Cascade Bluffs

1 Mystic Gate

1 Rugged Prairie

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Raugrin Triome

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Command Tower

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Forsaken City

1 Plaza of Heroes

1 Magosi, the Waterveil

1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Thespian's Stage

1 Gemstone Caverns

1 Reliquary Tower

3 Island

2 Mountain

1 Plains

1 Mines of Moria

1 Otawara, Soaring City

1 Restless Spire

1 Restless Anchorage

1 Silverbluff Bridge

1 Razortide Bridge

Planeswalker (3)

1 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer

1 Venser, the Sojourner

1 Quintorious Kand

Artifact (13)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Arcane Signet

1 Azorius Signet

1 Azor's Gateway

1 Howling Mine

1 Izzet Signet

1 Pentad Prism

1 Relic of Legends

1 Font of Mythos

1 Unbender Tine

1 Gilded Lotus

1 Mirror of Fate

1 Knowledge Pool

Creatures (23)

1 Kami of the Crescent Moon

1 Kwain, Itinerant Meddler

1 Lore Drakkis

1 Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot

1 Nin, the Pain Artist

1 Coveted Falcon

1 Heliod, Sun-Crowned

1 Vedalken Plotter

1 Veyran, Voice of Duality

1 Walking Archive

1 Cadric, Soul Kindler

1 Crystalline Crawler

1 Golden Guardian

1 Sakashima the Impostor

1 Swans of Bryn Argoll

1 Toralf, God of Fury

1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Brash Taunter

1 Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper

1 Precursor Golem

1 Inferno Titan

1 Astral Dragon

1 Sphinx of the Second Sun

Enchantments (7)

1 Detention Sphere

1 Jeskai Ascendancy

1 Leyline of Anticipation

1 Possibility Storm

1 Barren Glory

1 Eye of the Storm

1 Outpost Siege

Instants (11)

1 Angel's Grace

1 Firestorm

1 Three Steps Ahead

1 Electrodominance

1 Leave // Chance

1 Arcbond

1 Chance for Glory

1 Jeskai Charm

1 Mirrorweave

1 Turnabout

1 Vanish into Memory

Sorcery (9)

1 Shatterskull Smashing

1 Bonus Round

1 Catch // Release

1 Role Reversal

1 Time Spiral

1 Mind's Desire

1 Sea Gate Restoration

1 Temporal Cascade

1 Rise and Shine

Approximate Total Cost:

Cards sitting next to the deck that I am maybe looking for cuts for:
Vedalken Orrery
Replication Technique
Mindmoil
Chaos Warp
Sudden Substitution

There is a two-pronged inspiration for the pile of legends: one is Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot caught my fancy, the other is cutting Mind Over Matter. I'm back over the MOM is too good line, I think it's Angel's Grace that actually killed it this time, as Angel's Grace has been letting me draw actually my whole deck through whatever draw engine without fear of dying to my own draw and with Mind Over Matter I never run out of mana and the game auto ends. And then with that cut, it makes me really want my Time Spiral back for land untapping which means Rootha, Mercurial Artist is out, and now I get to play with a bunch of different legends:

MOM being out means I get Nin, the Pain Artist and Kwain, Itinerant Meddler back out of jail. Add in Tai Wakeen, and that's a full color cycle of 2-mana legends that can draw me cards. Nin can also trigger Taii, and both Taii and Kwain have butts big enough to draw multiple times with Nin effectively. Both of those match nicely with Brash Taunter, which can double X damage an opponent's face or get in minor burns while I draw with Nin. Taunter puts me one Heliod, Sun-Crowned away from a 4-card combo with Crystalline Crawler and Golden Guardian. And then Toralf, God of Fury // Toralf's Hammer is a card I considered at length when it released, but passed when it proved more board wipe than game explosion. Well, with Taii around, game explosion is on the menu.

The last legend in the list of changes is Veyran, Voice of Duality, which I got a copy to play with when it released, but never actually talked about it since it was in the midst of a few consecutive sets of tons of new Zedruu tools. But Veyran makes Possibility Storm, Eye of the Storm, Jeskai Ascendancy, Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper and Precursor Golem all double trigger (and some other minor things). It's also got some synergy with Brash Taunter or Vanish into Memory, just by virtue of getting potentially huge off magecraft triggers.

The only other thing up there I don't think I've talked about is Three Steps Ahead: the middle option is the important one. It's an on-rate clone that can copy either artifacts or creatures, which is fine already. It's an instant, which is great on its own, and also triggers Precursor Golem. The third option is a reasonable rate for an instant speed draw spell, but it also doesn't target, so combined with the middle mode we can target Precursor Golem with a clone/draw spell that makes 5 more golems and does 3 sets of draw and discard. And sometimes Cancel is a fine card. I took out Replication Technique to try this, but I think both is the droid I'm looking for.

I suspect I'll move things around a bit yet, but wanted to put this abomination out there. Feels a little creature heavy for my taste, and I'm back to lacking in graveyard interaction, but if I waited til I had all the answers to post, I'd never get anything posted.