Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

What do you guys think about Mindbreak Trap|OJP? Three three-spell threshold is pretty steep for casual play but the ability to permanently deal with uncounterable spells is nice. This beauty fell into my lap tonight at the prerelease.

[Rframpt]

I don't really see the use of it in this style of deck or I should clarify; I don't see it having much impact in my meta. While my meta is high-powered it isn't at the level where Mindbreak Trap would be of much use. Still very cool card

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I think it would take a bit of a push to play the Trap here. Or like, a pretty specific meta. Personally, I think if you're after a very definitive counterspell that answers most things, you're probably best with something like Flusterstorm or Summary Dismissal. The latter is expensive to cast, sure, but it's never conditional, so it could well be worth the punt.

[pzbw7z]

This looks very playable. I was fortunate to pull one from a prize back at the prerelease. Better get 'em before they hit $40!

As corny as it seems, Bovine Intervention is not an awful card either. It doesn't hit as many things as Generous Gift but it's cheaper and the downside is not as bad.

[Zed117]

Okay this thread made me create an account because dang lots of useful information in this thread. I've tried to make Wilhelt, Scarab God and Gisa&Geralf into a aggro zombie swarm and I think Varina is what I actually want to play.

Gonna take another long read through the whole thread, but any suggestions to my list are most welcome.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/amjKTBA6rUKZMTsQCGe_BA

[pokken]

Okay this thread made me create an account because dang lots of useful information in this thread. I've tried to make Wilhelt, Scarab God and Gisa&Geralf into a aggro zombie swarm and I think Varina is what I actually want to play.

Gonna take another long read through the whole thread, but any suggestions to my list are most welcome. Open to throwing Vampiric back in, and unsure on Archfind of Ifner, thinking about swapping it for Sidisi.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/amjKTBA6rUKZMTsQCGe_BA

I think your curve is a little high for the # of lands and ramp you have, and I think you'll find you want some more early game fixing.

Relatively glaring ommissions in my opinion are:
Ashnod's Altar - this card does just so very much even if you can't go infinite with it, as an open sac outlet that can chain varina activations.
Skullclamp - makes a near infinite combo with Ashnod's Altar and Varina, Lich Queen, and is fantastic in general

I'd add at least one more open sac outlet ideally on a creature


I'd think about Land Tax and cranking the basic count up a little personally too but that's just my personal proclivity :D


All in all a nice pile of cards that could just use a little tuning -- if you look at your chances of playing a 4 drop on curve, it's a bit lower than I would like is the main thing.

[Zed117]

Okay this thread made me create an account because dang lots of useful information in this thread. I've tried to make Wilhelt, Scarab God and Gisa&Geralf into a aggro zombie swarm and I think Varina is what I actually want to play.

Gonna take another long read through the whole thread, but any suggestions to my list are most welcome. Open to throwing Vampiric back in, and unsure on Archfind of Ifner, thinking about swapping it for Sidisi.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/amjKTBA6rUKZMTsQCGe_BA

I think your curve is a little high for the # of lands and ramp you have, and I think you'll find you want some more early game fixing.

Relatively glaring ommissions in my opinion are:
Ashnod's Altar - this card does just so very much even if you can't go infinite with it, as an open sac outlet that can chain varina activations.
Skullclamp - makes a near infinite combo with Ashnod's Altar and Varina, Lich Queen, and is fantastic in general

I'd add at least one more open sac outlet ideally on a creature


I'd think about Land Tax and cranking the basic count up a little personally too but that's just my personal proclivity :D


All in all a nice pile of cards that could just use a little tuning -- if you look at your chances of playing a 4 drop on curve, it's a bit lower than I would like is the main thing.

I'm at 34 lands with the 2 MDFCs putting me at 36. Would you say drop the 2 MDFC's and make them straight lands instead?

[pokken]

I'm at 36 lands with the 2 MDFCs. Would you say drop the 2 MDFC's and make them straight lands instead?
I would like to add Binding Mummy & Vampiric Tutor. Totally open for cuts to add in skullclamp and altar as well.

If I were you I would find some cuts for a couple pieces of early game draw or fixing. Cut 4+ cmc plays; since you always want to run Varina on 4, 4 is the most clogged spot in the deck.

My favorite 'fix my lands' package is Tithe and Land Tax but there're a variety of options. I don't think your manabase can support those cards right now, but you could possibly pivot and use Ponder / Preordain and possibly even Rhystic Study and Epiphany at the Drownyard or Painful Truths type cards.

I think with maintaining your black heavy manabase, I would try to get Plumb the Forbidden Skullclamp and possibly a couple 2 mana draw 2 effects (Night's Whisper / Sign in Blood)?

An alternative would be going up to 38 or so lands, which I think might be enough given that you're running 2 cmc rocks (which again, has been discussed extensively in this thread, but you'll find signets have some problems in Varina sequencing). You might be able to add a couple more more lands that add value too (e.g. cycling).

There're really a ton of angles to think about, but my gut instinct looking at your list is you're going to stall at 3 mana a decent amount if you are forced to keep a 2 lander.

[Zed117]

Okay. Found room for Vampiric Tutor, Skullclamp and Ashnods. Cut down on my 4mv zombie slot. Sadly had to cut overcharged amalgram but it's not the best without rooftop storm anyway.
Got my curve down from a 3.4 to 2.9
For draw I currently have: Skullclamp, Black Market Connection, Terferi Insight, Jason Bright, Silversmote Ghoul, Midnight Reaper, Graveborn Muse, Undead Augur, Cryptbreaker, Kindred Discovery.

Of course Alhammarret Archive, Wilhelt & Bone Miser can potentially draw as well.

I tweaked my landbase for fixing, although I do have a few taplands. I think for midrange a few tapped should be alright.

[Zed117]

Cards that I feel I should be running: Sidisi Undead Vizier, Plague Belcher, Rhystic Study (I cut this for Teferi Insight) too many people pay the 1 in my meta.

Also possibly headless rider, reanimate/dread return, Tombound Lich, Tormod, Rot Hulk.

Any of those above worth swapping in? And if so what should I cut for them? Looking at swapping diregraff for headless, unsure on the rest. I've got about 7 cards in my sideboard I didn't have room for, but thought were worth running.

Thanks everyone!

[damens]

Hey, also new here. Have a Gisa and Geralf Zombie Deck but always been interested in a Varina Deck. I noticed most of your decks just run 1-2 Lords. Is there a reason for not running more? I also saw some people mention a combo with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. How does that work?
I generelly prefer to run more lands to make sure I hit 4 Land drops by turn 4. 35-36 just seems to little to me to be consistent

[pokken]

Hey, also new here. Have a Gisa and Geralf Zombie Deck but always been interested in a Varina Deck. I noticed most of your decks just run 1-2 Lords. Is there a reason for not running more? I also saw some people mention a combo with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. How does that work?
I generelly prefer to run more lands to make sure I hit 4 Land drops by turn 4. 35-36 just seems to little to me to be consistent

(reference my build: https://deckbox.org/sets/3016407)

I don't run any lords at all because I'm focused on the aristocrats gameplan and a combo finish; combat damage is usually just chip as part of draining the table out with zombie deaths or Gray Merchant of Asphodel

I agree with the land count in general. I run 36(37) but I also run a much lower curve than typical and a set of cantrips and land fixing effects.

(and yes I skipped Sol Ring on purpose; it rarely meaningfully accelerates my gameplan because I plan to cast Varina on 4 and don't run signets; definitely some experimental aspects there but it wins

--

re: Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant I am not sure what people are doing with this guy, he's too expensive for me :D

[pzbw7z]

Hey, also new here. Have a Gisa and Geralf Zombie Deck but always been interested in a Varina Deck. I noticed most of your decks just run 1-2 Lords. Is there a reason for not running more? I also saw some people mention a combo with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. How does that work?
I generelly prefer to run more lands to make sure I hit 4 Land drops by turn 4. 35-36 just seems to little to me to be consistent

Many of us rely on EtB or dies triggers to win through combos or mass reanimation. Zombies aren't really the greatest combat tribe. The lords that are run are usually run for something else besides the P/T bonus, i.e., Lord of the Undead is used to reload Gray Merchant of Asphodel or another zombie with a powerful EtB.

My deck in particular relied on Corpse Knight and Wayward Servant in particular and either sacrifice loops with Gravecrawler or a couple of other creatures that can be enabled by Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. Plague Belcher can do basically the same trick as well, but the other two are 2-mana and Belcher is 3.

Mass reanimation spells have a somewhat similar effect, except the goal is to do a great amount of damage in one go with Living Death or Zombie Apocalypse causing many EtB triggers simultaneously.

In addition to just causing damage, EtB triggers can also do other tricks. Looping with Sidisi, Undead Vizier can just tutor every card in the deck. Looping Fleshbag Marauder can wipe the board.

There's more, but I've got to get logged in for work in a few minutes.

[Rframpt]

Hey, also new here. Have a Gisa and Geralf Zombie Deck but always been interested in a Varina Deck. I noticed most of your decks just run 1-2 Lords. Is there a reason for not running more? I also saw some people mention a combo with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. How does that work?
I generelly prefer to run more lands to make sure I hit 4 Land drops by turn 4. 35-36 just seems to little to me to be consistent

Hi Damens, It is not much of a combo and more like a control finish. You keep looping Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant on each of your turns through the use of Unholy Grotto + a land that allows you to sacrifice Nevin with his ETB on the stack. Here are the steps:
1. Move to your upkeep and Activate Unholy Grotto targting Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant in your graveyard and put it on top of your Library.
2. Draw step you draw your Nevin.
3. Cast Nevin in your main phase, when its ETB is on the stack sacrifice it to either High Market or Phyrexian Tower to get his LTB on the stack.
4. Pay the one mana to blow everything up. Artifact, enchantment and creatures.
5. Should there be creatures destroyed you get a number of tapped Zombies equal to the amount of creatures that has died this turn. You will get one Zombies at least, as Nevin dies to the sacrifice outlet. This could set you up for the turn after as you might have a good amount of Zombies to swing with the turn after. Go to your end step.
6. Before your next turn decide whether the board needs to be wiped again. If yes go back to step 1. and repeat the steps.

Hope this breakdown helps how I use Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant.

I run a few lords. Death Baron, Diregraf Captain, Lord of the Undead, Zombie Master. I want to have Undead Warchief but four mana is not really where I want my lords to be at. I already have a hard time trimming the deck should there be any new cool zombie I want to add to the deck.

[pzbw7z]

I run a few lords. Death Baron, Diregraf Captain, Lord of the Undead, Zombie Master. I want to have Undead Warchief but four mana is not really where I want my lords to be at. I already have a hard time trimming the deck should there be any new cool zombie I want to add to the deck.

There is a cute trick with Undead Warchief; his discount makes Universal Automaton free to cast. Liliana, Untouched by Death then allows you to cast UA repeatedly for free with a sacrifice outlet. Using Phyrexian Altar in this capacity can produce infinite colored mana mana. Ashnod's Altar produces infinite colorless mana even without the Chief and does it twice as fast with him. .

This isn't something I've tried yet but it's not much - if, indeed, any - more complicated then some of the other wacky things I do and have done. The four-MV has put me off of Chief so far as well, but it's cool enough that I may eventually give it a try. He is a little expensive just for a gimmick.

[pzbw7z]

I run a few lords. Death Baron, Diregraf Captain, Lord of the Undead, Zombie Master. I want to have Undead Warchief but four mana is not really where I want my lords to be at. I already have a hard time trimming the deck should there be any new cool zombie I want to add to the deck.

There is a cute trick with Undead Warchief; his discount makes Universal Automaton free to cast. Liliana, Untouched by Death then allows you to cast UA repeatedly for free with a sacrifice outlet. Using Phyrexian Altar in this capacity can produce infinite colored mana mana. Ashnod's Altar produces infinite colorless mana even without the Chief and does it twice as fast with him. .

This isn't something I've tried yet but it's not much - if, indeed, any - more complicated then some of the other wacky things I do and have done. The four-MV has put me off of Chief so far as well, but it's cool enough that I may eventually give it a try. He is a little expensive just for a gimmick.

I should have given @pokken a shout out here as I believe I heard this from him.

[pokken]

I should have given @pokken a shout out here as I believe I heard this from him.

I'm starting to forget stuff I write in this thread it's getting so long :D

Universal Automaton is ridiculously legit, esp. if you're on the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge train.


iirc, Undead Warchief enables Phyrexian Altar and any 1B zombie to go infinite with liliana too, and makes Lazotep Reaver make actual infinite mana. so it's the first lord I would consider after Bladestitched Skaab which is my first choice for a lord.

--
Lord of the Undead is legit if you're running enough sac outlets to allow Gray Merchant of Asphodel kills, but most people do not run enough open sac outlets for that to be worth the extra mana cost (imho)

[yeti1069]

I think it's totally reasonable to be running more lords here. Varina doesn't have to be built leaning into combo so hard. I actually like that the deck can very easily pivot amongst aggro, aristocrats, and combo. It just depends on how efficient you want to be, how aggressive/cutthroat.

For myself, I'm happy running a higher number of 3, 4, 5 drop zombies than has become the average here, just because there are some fun includes, and I'm not that interested in chasing the combos.

[pokken]

I think it's totally reasonable to be running more lords here. Varina doesn't have to be built leaning into combo so hard. I actually like that the deck can very easily pivot amongst aggro, aristocrats, and combo. It just depends on how efficient you want to be, how aggressive/cutthroat.

For myself, I'm happy running a higher number of 3, 4, 5 drop zombies than has become the average here, just because there are some fun includes, and I'm not that interested in chasing the combos.

Yeah I am not meaning to say that lords are wrong just that I'm very particular about them for my build; never really found them to do what I want.

*that said* I am not super enamored with static buff lords in tribal beatdown decks for a variety of reasons; the biggest is that it allows removal to make significant problems with combat math. Particularly Death Baron whose removal can spell disaster for an attack step.

So for the most part I would play toward things like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Wonder, Cathars' Crusade (which is incredibly synergistic with Varina's ability) and things that are generally harder to profitably remove. There're quite a few effects that both scale better and are more resilient.

Again, lords are totally fine, just have some play pattern things to be aware of.

(a pretty interesting tribal break that's actually startlingly powerful with Varina is Nykthos Paragon; could be good if you're enchantment heavy and wanting to think about using Varina's ability and token doublers a lot too)

[Rframpt]

I just recently cut Mikaeus, the Unhallowed from my Varina deck as I got reminded that Dread Return exist and I should be playing it. I also haven't really cast big Mike nor reanimated it.
In my deck Big Mike felt more like a win more card, and given I have also removed Apprentice Necromancer from my list also means I can't have the shenanigans plays however Necromancy does fill the slot of apprentice necromancer and it can target opponent's graveyard should the need arise.

[pzbw7z]

If you are on the aggro bandwagon, it doesn't get much better than flipping Wonder off of a Varina trigger.

[pokken]

If you are on the aggro bandwagon, it doesn't get much better than flipping Wonder off of a Varina trigger.

Filth and Glory are also not too bad really, in their own way. I'd definitely play Filth on an aggro plan since black is very common and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is useful to us.

And Glory has some pretty nonsense advantages in terms of protecting your team from removal.

[damens]

I appreciate the answers, interesting take on the lords, though i definetely saw them being useful in a gisa ghoulcaller deck. Since I own a lot of the zombie lords as well as necroduality, grimgrin I kinda want to play them. But maybe that is more of a second deck.
Wonder/Filth/Glory are also cards I would like to play just because the syergize so well, you need to discard them and they benefit you when you swing.
In your experience do you usually win by the mass reanimation combo? Is there a way to loop it? Or is it usually like a mike, plague belcher; gravecrawler, Gary combo.
I guess zombies just kinda allow you to combo off by chance even on an aggro plan^^

[Rframpt]

I appreciate the answers, interesting take on the lords, though i definetely saw them being useful in a gisa ghoulcaller deck. Since I own a lot of the zombie lords as well as necroduality, grimgrin I kinda want to play them. But maybe that is more of a second deck.
Wonder/Filth/Glory are also cards I would like to play just because the syergize so well, you need to discard them and they benefit you when you swing.
In your experience do you usually win by the mass reanimation combo? Is there a way to loop it? Or is it usually like a mike, plague belcher; gravecrawler, Gary combo.
I guess zombies just kinda allow you to combo off by chance even on an aggro plan^^

Through mass reanimation we got Repository Skaab to get our instance and sorceries back from the graveyard and with an altar like Phyrexian Altar you can keep looping as long as someone doesn't have instant speed graveyard removal.
You don't necessarily need Mike to finish people off. I am trying out both Revivify and Cauldron Haze to help getting just the last bit over the finish line when doing mass reanimation and recover from potential board wipes both when I cast them or when they get casted on me

[damens]

I see thanks. Mike does help though I assume. I thought more along the line of a combo with plague belcher. I think I will give the New geralt a try as well instead of a lord. Almost like a diregraf colossus and cathars crusade on the same card.

Basically the gameplan is casting cheap zombies, get Varina out turn 4 and using her loot ability to find Reanimation pieces or inreraction while filling our graveyard. Either win through mass Reanimation loop or some inherent aristocrat combo or combat dmg.
Do you find 2 Reanimation pieces are enough?